Talk:The Pentecostal Mission/Archive 1

One comment to all the users
''I HAVE OFTEN OBSERVED THAT MOST OF THE USERS DO NOT SIGN YOUR NAME OR YOUR USER ID. PLEASE DO NOT DO IT. EVEN IF YOU DO NOT HAVE ONE USER NAME THEN CREATE ONE OR YOU WILL CAUGHT DOING SOMETHING THAT YOU WOULD NOT HAVE DONE ACTUALLY. I REALLY APPRECIATE IT IF ALL OF YOU COULD AGREE WITH IT AND DO THE SAME BY PUTTING THE TIDLES.'' ALL THE OTHERS WHO AGREE THE SAME CAN DROP IN YOUR NAME. JUST TO BE KNOWN BY A NAME IS BETTER THAT AN UNKNOWN USER.I THINK YOU WILL HAVE TO GO AND READ THIS ARTICLE BEFORE YOU PUT IN A COMMENT HERE. REALLY GOOD ONE FOR CHRISTIANS AND NON-CHRISTAINS TOO.THANKS.This Page rencin24


 * Copy of the above in a more readible style:
 * I have often observed that most of the users do not sign your name or your user ID. Please, do not do it. Even if you do not have one user name, then create one or you will caught doing something that you would not have done actually. I really appreciate it if all of you could agree with it and do the same by putting the tidles. All the others who agree the same can drop in your name. Just to be known by a name is better that an unknown user. I think you will have to go and read this article before you put in a comment here. Really good one for christians and non-christains too. Thanks rencin24

I have found this good add-in for the Firefox web-browser (http://faithbrowser.com/installff.html) which I want to share with my brethren:

http://faithbrowser.com/

Rgds

Pastor Niru80.229.5.88 18:14, 8 February 2007 (UTC)

Number
Can anyone tell me just as to how much of people are there in this church? an approximate count will. I meant all over the world. Could it be around 6 million??? or more?? rencin24rencin24 11:45, 6 November 2006 (UTC)

--- I guess a bit lesser than tht number, coz apart from asia and primarily India, i think the density is far lesser globally. Thats my hunch. I think the ministry is spread over 50 countries or so and i read some place that there are 6.7 Million TPMites.

Usquare 19:53, 21 November 2006 (UTC) - The Hindu paper reference (1) refers to a possible total number of pentecostal adherents either in Kerala / South India or the whole of India. Operation World 2001 (Johnstone & Mandryk) Paternoster Lifestyle lists 3.89 million Pentecostals in India with a growth rate of 7.5% per annum. Sri Lanka had just under 5000 CPM adherents in 2001. In Sri Lanka, Pentecostals as a whole (ie AoG assemblies, FourSquare, CPM etc) increased 6.3% per annum (from Operation World). TPM does not constitute the whole number of Pentecostal adherents in India ! The number quoted from the Hindu paper at the top of this article is therefore wrong ie it does NOT refer to TPM/CPM denomination alone but to the whole number of Pentecostal adherents in India or South India. I would estimate a world-wide TPM / CPM adherents of around 150 - 200,000. Of these, the vast majority would be located in Kerala / Tamil Nadu. The Adaiyar (Chennai) annual convention draws around 100,000 or so. Colombo Mattakuliya convention draws a few thousand (under 5000). USA possibly 1000 +. In all other countries, annual conventions draw in a few hundred each. The number of 150 - 200,000 would be a more plausible number. The article should be corrected to reflect this. Earlof wessex67 14:14, 12 May 2007 (UTC)

Is it correct
Origin of Ceylon Pentecostal Mission " In the initial stages he was helping Robert F. Cook, a foreign evenglist in interpreting the gospel in South Indian languages " . ???? I never heard/read this matter. -B

It is indeed
Well dear friend it is indeed correct and true that Pastor Paul was helping Robert F. Cook. If you look at the history of south pentecostalism movement you would also see that most of them became seperate for doctrinal issues. Go through the pages Robert F. Cook and  IPC for more information. rencin24 rencin24 05:58, 27 September 2006 (UTC)

Pastor Alvin speaks again
Right, people seem to think there is something 'radically wrong' with me. They seem to believe that that I'm kind of Satan with intense hatred of this church, I am not. The point I was trying to make when I said I was a 'good Christian' is imagine how much more forceful my language and opinions could have been if I was an atheist, agnostic or even a Satanist! As I mentioned before, there are two aspects to my interest to the contribution to this web page. One aspect is the quality of writing on this web page and the other aspect is the theology of this church. As SPM2006 will point out to you, I edited something about Leadership of this church to make it NPOV and this is perhaps how you should write about facts on your page. The reason why I have not contributed to pages about the Anglican Church or the Catholic Church is that the quality of writing there is excellent and I feel there is nothing more to contribute.

I have also been accused in glorying in the 'incident that happened 50 years ago'. I'm not. I'm concerned for my Christian brother s and Christian sisters. Yes, there are 'Alvins' in other denominations but they are quickly dealt with. Locally, in my parish, a vicar was tempted by the devil and had an affair with a senior female member of the church. He committed adultery. He has been removed from the church and lost his privileges very quickly and fairly. This doesn't appear to happen with the CPM. What happened to Pastor Alvin de Alvis? What measures are there within the Church to prevent other 'Alvins' happening within?

Similarly, to increase my understanding of your Church, how do you explain faith healing? As I mentioned in one of my posts which was deleted, St Luke was a doctor. Additionally, isn't a demonstration of God's power that he has given us talented scientists and doctors to find these cures.

I look forward to your answers.

Pastor Alvin

SO?? GET OVER IT!!

 * Everytime you speak, I seem to get a clearer picture of you. I think RS CA should respond to your post because you are responding mainly to his/her post. You haven't responded directly to any of my comments that I have made point by point. Anyway, I think it is not even worth one second of my time responding to your silly arguments. So let me make a final point, and again, let the readers decide who is making sense here.


 * 1. You claim you have no interest in the catholic or anglican page because they are excellent articles and are in no need of your expert contributions. Well, thank you for your interest in making this article the "most excellent one."


 * 2. As far as allegations about immorality among the ministers of this church, you are just beating around the bush without providing any specifics or evidence. All you seem to be able to quote is "What happened to Pastor Alvin?" Thanks for your phony concern for your Christian brothers and sisters. We do not feel threatened in any way by the ministry. If at all there is even a suspicion of immoral behaviour, do you sir as an outsider, know how this church deals with it? I as a member, do know for a fact that there is "zero tolerance" for any such behavior. I KNOW IT FOR A FACT. This is a church that teaches and practices PURITY & HOLINESS in mind, body and spirit. Oh, by the way, I think you missed this article on wikipedia which is a well known fact from the very near past http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Roman_Catholic_sex_abuse_cases. And quoting from the article,

'''Similarly the abuses done by the cpm workers need to posted so that people read it as they do about roman catholic priests. Like for instance, "Rajiv Gandhi" Sam from St. Thomas Mt, Danny the Translator, Pas. Cornelius, T. Matthew now in Mahabalipuram etc.'''


 * "An increasing number of cases were and are being reported by the press, after the victims decided to disclose what had been concealed by the church.[citation needed] Many cases involved orphanages, schools and seminaries, where children were in the care of clergy. This resulted in a form of abuse similar to that experienced by children in incestuous relationships (see Incest).


 * In many cases the crimes, when reported to them, were covered up by high-ranking authorities of the Church, and the perpetrators simply moved to another location, often with continued access to children.[citation needed] This has fueled criticism of the Church and its leadership especially as there are still ongoing refusals by some high-ranking Church authorities to disclose sex abuse information to government authorities."


 * 3. Moving on...you say you have problems with the theology of this church. OK, I have problems with the theology of so many other churches, I guess I should take the cue from you and start attacking members of those churches on their websites and forums just because I do not happen to believe as they do. You did not see anyone on this forum attacking your church or whatever interests you represent on your websites.

'''The erroneous theology of CPM need to be mentioned. Truth can be found from the scriptures. '''


 * 4. Divine Healing or "Faith Healing" as you call it is a biblical truth. Jesus died for your sins and sicknesses. May be if you open your eyes and start reading your bible you will find the truth. If I say to you how painful childbirth is, you will not understand the pain unless you go through childbirth. The point being that unless you experience something you woudn't know or fully appreciate what it is. So is the case with diving healing. Talk to people who have experienced the divine healing power of God in their lives. Read the bible. Taste and see it for yourself. I do not want to add anything more on this topic. One more thing...You talk about St.Luke being a doctor. SO WHAT?? I guess he was the personal physician of "THE GREAT PHYSICIAN" and the 11 other disciples. The last time I checked my bible, it was Jesus who went about healing the sick. Dear brother, ask Jesus to heal your mind, body and spirit.

'''TPM states that those who consume medicines or undergo surgery cannot take partake in the resurrection. This large statement has absolutely no Biblical evidence.'''


 * 5. Lastly, again I want to reiterate, this article is for general knowledge purpose only, not to indoctrinate anyone or to convert anyone. If that was the case, the church would have had their own website stating their aims, objectives, mission statement, philosophy etc. etc. It is a brief article about the history, structure, office beares and activities of the church. SO GET OVER IT!!

'''SPM seems to be zealous for TPM by trying to suppress certain crucial information about TPM. I think, he needs to learn to be zealous for Jesus rather than for TPM '''

--Spm2006 21:40, 27 September 2006 (UTC)

You need a life "Pastor Alvin"
Spm2006 hit the nail right on the head. I just want to say a few more things and call it quits. After reading much of "Pastor Alvin's" "eloquent" statements and his immature criticisms it can be rightly concluded that he has poor scriptural knowledge and is also vainglorious. He started first from Pastor Alwin's incident, then he went on to Roger Hedlund. Then went on to the language and then finally to the church doctrines. Let me make some points here.

You said that you are interested in the quality of the article. Is that why you were inserting false statements in this article for more than a year under the disguise of the chief pastor? Every organization, every company and every church has their own rules.

'''Does it mean that they can formulate doctrines which has absolutely no Biblical evidence? Aren't people deceived? TPM has no "patta of possession" over the believers, do they? Believers belong to Jesus not to TPM. Pls remember'''

Members are ready to obey those rules and if they don't agree they move on. Same way divine healing is one of the pillars of this church.

Where did the Unbiblical pillar come from?

I have a few questions for your "intellectual" mind.

Do you believe


 * .in Jesus and His virgin birth?

Yes


 * .that Jesus healed the sick and all the other miracles that he did. Matt (8:16,17) ?

Yes Jesus healed people to bring them to the kingdom of God and not to close all the pharmacies and Hospitals.


 * .that He took our infirmities and bare our sicknesses. (Isa 53:4,5)(Acts 10:38)?

'''If so why do TPM workers die mostly of diabetes and other sicknesses? Why did Pas A.C Thomas consume tonics and why did Pas. C John was given pork to counter his piles problem? Why was Sister Viola the official whenever pastors had physical ailment?'''


 * .in the resurrection?

Yes


 * .that Jesus is the same yesterday, today and forever?

Yes and that does not have any relation to TPM's pet unbiblical doctrine 


 * .in the Power of God?

'''yes. Read the above comments'''

If you answered YES to all these questions then why can't Jesus heal today? Did he loose His power? If the answers to these two questions are not in the affirmative then at least one of the statements mentioned above is false. Think about it. You may believe in the existence of God but not in the power of God. Modern medicine can do a lot of things.

'''Doctors are part of the principalities and powers set up by God. They are God's servants just like policemen and Judges. '''

But that's not the point here. There are a group of people who trust in God for their healing; spiritual as well as physical. They know that God is able to preserve that which is committed unto Him. The promises of God are true.

If so why do they die?

But some may not receive the promises in this life but they die in faith. Heb 11:13

Faith on what?

These also died in faith, not having received the promises but having seen them afar off, and were persuaded of them and embraced them, and confessed that they were strangers and pilgrims on this earth.

'''They did not receive the earthly Canaan. That is what it means. Pls do not associate it wrongly to health.'''

Do not make your heart a heart of stone. A stone is the same whether you drop it in water or when you put it in fire. It's not going to change. Faith comes by hearing the Word of God and not by debate or dialog. I have experienced the healing power of God in my life and I have seen numerous others healed from their sicknesses.

'''God heals some miraculously to save them or to lead them in His will but not to close the Doctoral profession. A sick man needs a physician. Jesus said that.'''

You say that St. Luke was a doctor. But nowhere in the Bible can we find that he practiced it after becoming a follower of Jesus. He traveled with Paul and nowhere can you see that Luke treating Paul for his sicknesses. Brother, I was also born in one of the nominal churches and these are ready made questions that they ask with out checking the scripture.

'''You are wrongly assuming here that Bible is an exhaustive book about history. Nevertheless many TPM doctrines contradict the scripture.'''

You say "isn't a demonstration of God's power that he has given us talented scientists and doctors to find these cures" From my understanding of this statement you are saying that:

What God created was not perfect. He did a poor job. So He needs the help of mans' intellect to figure out the problems.

'''If so why did you go to a school to study? Knowledge and wisdom comes from God who is the source !!'''

Or God gave a big puzzle for man to figure out his bodily problems and don't want to be bothered about this.

But I don't believe so. Sure, scientists and doctors are talented but why are they still "practicing medicine" for hundreds of years and still have not perfected it? I would suggest you to read an article in the August 2006 edition of Reader's Digest. The article is called "How Doctors Gamble With your Life". Why don't we trust the Creator himself than trusting the creature?

'''For your information nothing is perfect. You thought that your school and your teacher were perfect?'''

But if you want to sincerely learn more about divine healing I can send you a booklet on it. Do let me know.

If they hear not Moses and the prophets neither will they be persuaded though one rise among the dead. Luke 16:31 RS CA 06:36, 28 September 2006 (UTC)

Hope SPM understands the above and knows the truth and be set free.

Faith healing
Right, I make a few rational points and I still get abuse like "You need a life" and "Get over it". I'll forgive them and take this as interpretation of how strongly you believe in your faith and not as personal attacks on me. There are allegations on this page that I have also written as Pastor TU Thomas and Pastor Roshin. This is not the case. I use a popular ISP in the UK and this may explain similar IP addresses however, I don't quite see the point in having multiple personalities(!)

I was interested in RS CA's response. My interest in this area is sincere. Whenever I have spoken to members of the Church on this subject, I am just dismissed or I am not given a proper answer. I suppose it depends on how you believe God works. I believe we were given the Gift of Knowledge in the Garden of Eden and we were given a 'big puzzle' but God does care because he provides inspiration to the scientists that do find these cures. However, you are free to believe 'why trust a trainee medic when you've got access to the master one?'

Pastor Alvin

---

There you go Pastor Alvin! I understand your sincerity. Trusting in God alone for healing and not depending on medicine and doctors is rightly called divine healing. It may look foolish in the eyes of the world. But thats not our priority.RS CA 15:58, 28 September 2006 (UTC)

'''TPM workers violate Romans 13:1-6 when they neglect Doctors and medicines and pay the price for it. Trusting a doctor or medicine is different from using them. Doctors only treat but Jesus heals. TPM wrongly assumes that non TPM believers believe that doctors heal. They don't. They use medicines but trust in Jesus.''' —Preceding unsigned comment added by Roshni.roshni (talk • contribs) 09:27, 25 November 2007 (UTC)

My opinion about "Pastor Alvin"
I bet there is something radically wrong with "Pastor Alvin". It all seems to be stemming from bitterness or some unforgiveness that he has in his heart. It is just my opinion. It would have been good if he is validating every article that pertains to every Christian denomination. What about the articles on the Catholic church or the Anglican church? I am sure it's easy to find many Alwin's over there. Aren't you bothered about that? If you are a good Christian you will be also praying for the servants of God than accusing the brethren (Rev 12:10). RS CA says that we should not accuse but he is accusing by saying, "I bet there is something radically wrong with "Pastor Alvin". Can you spot the hypocrisy of RSCA?   This is what you are doing day night. After all they are humans.   You will call them anointed saints when they bluff but when their errors are exposed you will claim they are humans. You talk like a master manipulator   You are talking about an incident that happened more than 50 years ago. Why are you glorying in this incident "Pastor Alvin"?   Why do you glorify in the doctrines of Celibacy which was invented by Pastor Alwin ?  You are the one who inserted this stuff in the previous article and many other false statements time and time again.  What are we supposed to do now? Proclaim it in every message, every tract?  '''Aren't you proclaiming the doctrines and misinterpretations of TPM and the greatness of the pastors through this site ? If so why shouldn't the errors of TPM be exposed as well''' We would appreciate a constructive solution from you. Don't pretend that you are very much concerned about Wikipedia standards. Obviously you are not. Check your Biblical Standards before you start singing about TPM Pastors consecration RS CA 05:17, 27 September 2006 (UTC)

Pastor Alvin.

RS CA says that we should not accuse but he is accusing by saying, "I bet there is something radically wrong with "Pastor Alvin". Can you spot the hypocrisy of RSCA? 

A Response

 * Pastor Alvin, Thanks for clarifying that it is your "version of the facts".


 * 1. It is unfortunate that your comments were deleted and the guy has apologized for doing so. You are free to put those comments back in the right order of discussion that we had.


 * 2. As far as plagiarism goes, the older version was plagiarised (I don't know by whom), and it was cited rightfully for copyright violation. We have taken steps to correct that issue in this new article.


 * 3. Every effort has been made to conform to NPOV guidlines, but if you feel that something does not meet that criterion (like the one you have cited), you are always welcome to point that out.


 * 4. So first it was vilifying Dr.Roger Hedlund, apparently whom you do not know. Now you are continuing your tirade against the ministers of UK Pentecostal church accusing them of commiting sinful acts. You say you "believe" they are commiting sinful acts. You claim yourself to be a "good Christian". I think rather than self-approving to be a "good Christian", let your words and expressions be a testimony of the person you are. Matt 7:20 Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them. You are throwing stones at others, my dear friend, accusing them without any proof or evidence. This is slander, my dear brother, unless you can come up with some evidence. And you know what the Bible talks about slander.


 * 5. In all humility I exhort you to be careful when you judge others. I'm sure you know what the scriptures say about judging others. Also, my personal opinion is that, this should not be the forum for mudslinging against other Christians (though you have every right and freedom to do so). If you have any constructive criticisms against the article, we will appreciate them. By the way, there are so many other articles on wikipedia that have used information from books written by members of their own organizations. Your interest in this specific article is quite remarkable!!


 * 6. And finally, like you have titled this article, "be an example of Christ to others". We will try to do so by His grace. 1 John 4:7 Beloved, let us love one another: for love is of God; and every one that loveth is born of God, and knoweth God.--Spm2006 22:01, 26 September 2006 (UTC)

Wat happened?
Hey wat happened to al the talk that was here??? Anyways lets start a new one

It's simple brother. Please read the Gospel according to John. Chapter 9.

"25": He answered and said, Whether he be a sinner or no, I know not: one thing I know, that, whereas I was blind, now I see.

Notability
Mr. Omnipresence,

Does adding the bibliography meet notability criterion of wikipedia? Your comments on "formal tone for encyclopedia" would also be appreciated.

Thanks spm2006

A response to Pastor Alvin
Pastor Alvin,

Pastor Alvin(familiar name),

It is very apparent that every word of yours seem to be spewing out the venom of hate towards TPM whatever be the reason behind it.

I would like to address a few issues here(excuse the poor grammar of un-edcuated TPMers):

1. I personally do not know Mr.Roger Hedlund, but I do know that he has written quite a few books and papers and has a title Doctor to his name suggesting that he has a doctorate. As you have mentioned he is also the 'Director of Mylapore Institute for Indigenous Studies'. http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/search-handle-url/index=books&field-author-exact=Roger%20E.%20Hedlund&rank=-relevance%2C%2Bavailability%2C-daterank/102-4728216-5534503. This is the link for his books on Amazon.com. Anyway, I am not here to defend Dr.Roger Hedlund since I do not know him personally or his organization that he represents and to the best of my knowledge is not a member of TPM. I am amazed at the speed at which you jumped to call him a "charlatan." I guess you know him very well.

2. You mention about the ill-educated senior pastors of the UK Pentecostal Church. True, some may not be as educated as you are (assuming that you are highly educated), but God sometimes chooses the foolish to confound the wise. 1 Corinthians 1:26,27 26For ye see your calling, brethren, how that not many wise men after the flesh, not many mighty, not many noble, are called:

27But God hath chosen the foolish things of the world to confound the wise; and God hath chosen the weak things of the world to confound the things which are mighty;

I wonder if the apostle Peter were alive today, you would have looked down on him too considering that he was only a fisherman and not having undergraduate or postgraduate qualifications.

3. Atleast you give the benefit of doubt to God, for giving "fanatics" of this questionable church/cult the gift of "speaking in tongues". I give you credit for that. I thank God that atleast God did not say that one of the requirements to be saved is that you should have a degree in grammar from Oxford University thereby making Christianity a religion exclusive to elites like you. Sure, may be the grammar and spelling does not match your standards or that of wikipedia. If you want to stifle the voice of TPM on wikipedia, sure you are free to do so. If you do not want people to know (just for information) that such a church does exist, sure go ahead and delete this article, by all means. The non-existence of this article will not annul the factual existence of this church and its history. The article does not attack any church or individual but merely mentions the history and some of its salient features. The work of God will continue, wikipedia or not, Pastor Alvin's hate or not.

In-Christ spm2006

Second response to "Pastor Alvin"
I really do not know whether you are a pastor or not. But I do know that you stand one among the many hate mongers of this Church. One other is the fake Pastor T U Thomas disguised under the name of our precious chief pastor. If you really love God then you should appreciate the work of God, whether it comes from ill-educated poor or the well-educated elite.

But that is not your vision. Your vision is to taint the work of God. This Wikipedia article is not a promotional page of the Church nor a web site. It is not interested in such things as you can see from the fact that it has no web page or any other internet related evangelism. It exists purely by the grace of God!

The ministers of this church have taken on the high calling to preach and warn every man to present them perfect in Christ Jesus.

Whom we preach, warning every man, and teaching every man in all wisdom; that we may present every man perfect in Christ Jesus. Col 1:28

Regarding NPOV, neutrality does not mean that you can present false information. This article has witnessed so much such nonsense in the past.

It may be true that the church has ill-educated pastors. Did Jesus send all his disciples to a University?

Let’s be on our knees seeking God’s grace and mercy.

RS

One user different User names
It is interesting to note that the users "Pastor Alvin", "Pastor T. U. Thomas", "Pastor Roshin" are one and the same person.

let readers decide
Now that Pastor Alvin has responded, and both arguments have been made, it's up to the readers now to decide which argument is right. God Bless You All Spm2006

pjacaobi
The name of this church is "The Pentecostal Mission" or TPM, and not Pentecostal Mission. That is why I thought it was appropriate for it to be under the new name "The Pentecostal Mission. Thanks

spm2006


 * But there are two different articles at The Pentecostal Mission and Pentecostal Mission respectively. If you want the (older) article PM at TPM, it has to be moved, not copied. --Pjacobi 10:56, 25 September 2006 (UTC)


 * No, we want to keep the new article at The Pentecostal Mission. What can we do to keep this version The Pentecostal Mission and delete the old one Pentecostal Mission. I thought redirect was the way to go. Please do what you feel is necessary to keep the new one.--Spm2006 16:34, 25 September 2006 (UTC)


 * OK, I can handle the fine print (regarding licensing, article history and eventual double redirects). And please be aware that the article The Pentecostal Mission still has problems, which must be resolved later.
 * But for now the question is:
 * Do all contributors agree, that The Pentecostal Mission is the preferred version and that nothing is missing there, which is was in included this version: Pentecostal Mission?
 * Pjacobi 14:30, 26 September 2006 (UTC)

I also agree with the name The Pentecostal Mission and the current version looks fine to me. RS CA 15:17, 26 September 2006 (UTC)  (RS)


 * Pjacobi, All I did with the old article is that I re-organized it and edited the article to conform to NPOV. Finally, I redirected it to "The Pentecostal Mission". If no one else objects to this new article as compared to the old one, then you may please go ahead and make this version the official one. Subsequently, we can discuss other issues that you may have with the article and we will try to resolve it. Thanks--Spm2006 20:59, 26 September 2006 (UTC)

I really feel that the page is not done completly still. I had asked SPM regarding adding some more informations to this page. I would not recommend that this page be listed as of yet. SPM I'am waiting for your reply about adding some more informations. rencin24. rencin24 06:14, 27 September 2006 (UTC)


 * I'm sorry Rencin, I did not get your message. What is it that you want added? Besides the question is whether you want to keep "The Pentecostal Mission" article or the one at "Pentecostal Mission". If you agree to "The Pentecostal Mission", then please confirm it. Additions/Deletions is an ongoing process and it can be done later too. So please confirm your choice.--Spm2006 10:48, 27 September 2006 (UTC)

Well you can go ahead with the name The Pentecostal Mission as it is the officiall name of our churuch. So you can go for it me and SPM will decide later about the editing.rencin24 08:41, 3 October 2006 (UTC)

Sorry
Hey guys sorry for deleting that articles of Pastor Alwin. Please forgive me and let us start from new begening. If you guys agree then we can delete and start from the begenning.SPM What do you say.rencin24 rencin24 14:01, 26 September 2006 (UTC)


 * Do you mean you want to start the talk page over again? I think it is against Wikipedia rules to do so. We can keep discussing issues right here.--Spm2006 21:01, 26 September 2006 (UTC)

Good editing Pastor Alvin
Thanks for editing the "Leadership" section. I am referring to 21:26, 26 September 2006 80.229.5.88 (Talk) (→Leadership and Ministry).

Now it truly looks NPOV. Appreciate that.--Spm2006 22:14, 26 September 2006 (UTC)

rencin---list of pastors
rencin,

were you trying to put a list of chief pastors from the beginning? That's the idea I got from your list, so I changed it a little bit. If that was not the case then you may change it back.

Is it Correct ??? List of previous chief Pastors
Again, Is it Correct???
 * Pastor Philip Chandapillai (Associate Chief Pastor)
 * Pastor S.B. Earnest (Deputy Cheif Pastor)
 * Pastor Don M Spiers
 * Pastor T.G. Varghese

Please Check this previous CHIEF PASTORS list....

List of Chief Pastors from Pastor Paul founder of CPM( TPM/ NTC )

Geobk 17:48, 1 November 2006 (UTC)
 * Pastor Paul (Ramankutty)
 * Pastor Alwin ( for a while)
 * Pastor Freddy Paul
 * Pastor A .C. Thomas
 * Pastor Jacob Ratnasingham
 * '''Pastor Earnest Paul
 * Pastor V.G. Samuel
 * Pastor C .K. Lazarus
 * Pastor P .M. Thomas
 * Pastor T.U. Thomas
 * Pastor Willson Joseph ( Present Chief Pastor)

Modifications and Additions for the better.
Congratulations to the person or persons who compiled this article. Indeed there are areas of dispute, but on going through the discussion forum, i found certain comments pretty trivial and immature. Lets not crib over minute details.

Coming to my suggestions.

If anybody has any snaps of either the Faith Homes or the conventions held till now or of any of other related thing...plz do post it. Would make the article a lot more informative...atleast colourful!!

Also, what is all the fuss about Pastor Alvin? For god sakes move on!! Unfortunately the inputs from the user "P. Alvin" were deleted, ridding us of an oppurtunity to figure out what the hoopla was about. Anyways, as a TPM believer by birth, all i have to say is that the Pastor Alvin incident is a part of our entity's history. He, from what i know, was a very eloquent preacher who unfortunately swayed away from the doctrines of this ministry. This is not a propoganda page, rather an encyclopedia. Lets not misrepresent facts. Instead accept history and move on.

Another comment...why dont u put the terms in office of all the chief pastors. Im sure the current generation is unaware of it and is more than interested to know.

And lastly, if anybody has information about any of the chief pastors till now, add a page as a hyperlink, thus making it a complete encyclopedic article. Hope this is taken in good spirit...

Usquare 19:48, 21 November 2006 (UTC)

A reply to unknown user
Hello friend it seems like you do not want to be identified at all. Well as you mentioned, about adding some pages well, wikipedia has got some rules in it. It should have covered all this NPOV, vandalism and for a better knowledge would ask you to go see the following:

Here are some pages that you might find helpful:


 * The five pillars of Wikipedia


 * How to edit a page


 * Help pages


 * Tutorial


 * How to write a great article


 * Manual of Style

Thanks a lot I hope this is taken in good care?? rencin24

- Well i did go through the wiki guidelines. Since im not very well versed with them as of now, it would be great if you could do the needful.

Thanks rencin24, and yeah i kinda had issues with being identified! But as long as its not a hinderance in effective communication, i dont think anybody should mind. On second thoughts...since there are more unknown users....u can call me Usquare...(Unknown User)

Usquare 19:50, 21 November 2006 (UTC)

Criticisms against TPM leaders
wow the pastor alvin fake is indeed a terrible personality with so much pent up hatred. Forget being a christian atleast as a rational human with moral values one should not critize unless you have concrete proof. Now if you are a christian then you should not criticize at all since accusers belong to the family of the father of all acussers of bretheren the Devil. If we confront any lacunas on their human side ,let us go on our knees as pray instead of wasting time mudslinging.

any idea about the links related to our church
Hello guys has any one have any idea of any links that is pertaning to church if so then please do put it. As it is undergoing NPOV and disputes of such kind. Thanks. rencin24

Chief Pastors
Hello, all there is a page on Chief Pastors I hope we all will do the best to put all about chief pastors and other pastors that were a great blessing to us. Maybe we can also add some links to these related topics then will be good.Thanks.Usquare I hope you can do something about this. All the best. Chief Pastors.rencin24

Hey Rencin24...i will be glad to help out...good work on making that new page. But i am kind of busy for a while now.....so i'l be putting this on hold. Surely will resume once im done with work. Keep up the good work... Cheers!!

Usquare 19:50, 21 November 2006 (UTC) Our Leader's decide not to do any inetr net, radio, tv ,drama, cinema ministry better to obey the srevants of God

church logo
can some one upload the church logo to this page as it will really be good if anyone can do it. And also if any of you have got any of the snaps of any pastors or church building then please do put it. Will be really neat if we can do that.

Other Pastors
Hey can somebody put other pastors also who were great and remarkable in TPM.....Hope you all the best. We can all contribute to this of all the pastors other than that at this page Chief Pastors58.2.238.143 12:53, 24 November 2006 (UTC)

Parts of discussion is removed
I wonder why some of the discussion in this page were removed. I strongly believe that discussions support the article and it also prevents future vandalisms. Also, it may be against Wikipedia standards.RS CA

Please do not alter the discussions we had in the past
I strongly affirm what RS CA has mentioned. Whoever is deleting past discussions is knowingly or unknowingly commiting vandalism as per wikipedia standards. RS CA and rencin also knows how we strongly defended our mission against the vicious attacks by a user named "pastor alvin". All the discussions we had must be maintained on this page. As per wikipedia rules no one has ownership to this site. any comment made by any user has to stay. THANKS

Before deleting any posts please read this
Please check this link http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Etiquette

An excerpt from that page reads:

Here are a few things to bear in mind Wikipedia articles are supposed to represent all views (more at NPOV), instead of supporting one over another, even if you believe something strongly.

The Talk ("discussion") pages are not a place to debate value judgments about which of those views are right or wrong or better. If you want to do that, there are venues such as Usenet, public weblogs and other wikis. Use the Talk pages to discuss the accuracy/inaccuracy, POV bias, or other problems in the article, not as a soapbox for advocacy.

If someone disagrees with you, this does not necessarily mean that (1) the person hates you, (2) the person thinks you're stupid, (3) the person is stupid, (4) the person is evil, etc. When people post opinions without practical implications for the article, it's best to just leave them be. What you think is not necessarily right or necessarily wrong - a common example of this is religion.

Before you think about insulting someone's views, think about what would happen if they insulted your religion. Also, always remember that anything that is written on Wikipedia is kept permanently, even if it is not visible.

Try to avoid deleting things as a matter of principle. When you amend and edit, it is remarkable how you might see something useful in what was said. Most people have something useful to say. That includes you. Deletion upsets people and makes them feel they have wasted their time: consider moving their text to a sub-directory of their user pages instead (e.g. saying not quite the right place for it but so they can still use it): much less provocative. Wikipedia invites you to be bold.

Before initiating discussion, ask yourself: Is this really necessary to discuss? Could I provide a summary with my edit and wait for others to quibble if they like? You can always take a discussion to e-mail or to your user page if it's not essential to the article.

If you know you don't get along with someone, don't interact with them more than you need to. Unnecessary conflict distracts everyone from the task of making a good encyclopedia, and is just unpleasant. Actually following someone you dislike around Wikipedia is sometimes considered stalking, and is frowned on because it can be disruptive. If you don't get on with someone, try and become more friendly and if that doesn't help the situation then it is probably best to avoid them. Though editing articles is acceptable (and, in fact, encouraged), editing the signed words of another editor on a talk or other discussion page is generally not acceptable, as it can alter the intent or message of the original comment and as such can misrepresent the original editor's thoughts. Try to avoid editing another editor's comments unless absolutely necessary

Deleting the comments
Deleting the comments are not fair. Yes I do agree with the above comments what they have posted. For further info regarding this go see Vandalism.Hope that will do the best.There are other Wikipedia editors who have got the rights to delete it. If you continue further, editors may be forced to block you IP Address in which case you cannot access the site until they are sure about you.Thanks.I really hope this is taken care in good understanding. Rencin Matthew

i ve read u r article about the pentecostal mission.it is very interesting.but i want to tell some thing about their publicatins.they have their monthly magazine called the voice of pentecost from india,"pilgrims journal"from usa,"trumpet of the lord"from uk,"the pentecostal messanger"from malaysia,"power divine"from srilanka,"the youth herald"from singapore.these are all magazines published by their mission.so please add this information with u r article.

Let's stop the quarrel
Dear Brothers in Christ,

I do not understand the quarrel on the name of pastors, the denominations etc. Particularly with Pastor Alwin and TPM. I read the whole article and was forced to laugh at the standard of the people involved.

The bottom line is that none of us will go to heaven, unless we have the heavenly standards. Whether it be Pastor Alwin or Pastor Peter (Jesus' Disciple) himself. Our measure is Jesus and one should look to Jesus and live his or her life. All of us will be measured against Him and there is no sense comparing ourselves with anybody in this world.

My personal way of setting goal is like this. For example to reach standard 10, it is necessary to pass out 1,2,3 ... till 9th Standard. When we are at standard 1, it would be better to make a target for standard 2. When in standard 2, set goals for standard 3. But you can never blame standard 1 and 2 for its low profile. You should remember that you were a part of it few years back.

Likewise, our final goal is Jesus. Better would be if we set a lower standard first and then adding our levels. We can set some good freinds as our target, then change it to good believers and then to pastors, etc. One thing we have to remember is never to turn back at them blaming them as lower standard people. Finally you set a target of Jesus and try to achieve it.

I am a TPM Believer and do not think that only TPM will go at His coming. I also do not believe that only TPM is a perfect church. There are many people, many churches. God will decide who is best. This is His job and not ours. Our job is to reach our goal that is Jesus...

God Bless us all.

JACOB from Jamangar - Gujarat - India

Retrieved from "http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:Jacob_from_Jamnagar" —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Jacob from Jamnagar (talk • contribs) 14:12, 4 March 2007 (UTC).

I understand the above comments. But the user has not provided a constructive solution to the problem that we are facing with this article in Wikipedia. I agree with all what he has said. But what is his solution to maintaining this article without someone vandalising it? Defending our faith is not something that we should look down upon. This article is just for information to any one that searches for this Mission. We don't want to have false statements in here. I believe it is our right to defend it. Either support this article or remove the article and forget about it... RS CA(i forgot my password)64.142.43.180

ITS NOT QUARREL ITS FORGETTING
ITs not quarrel, but its forgetting. Its easy to have a fight and forgive, but not to forget. I agree with with the above but, lets not forget as to what TPM holds on to. There are many churches, denominations and also sects in this stuff called as christians. Remember that this is not a religion!!!!!! Well I agree with the above user of his comment what he said about the second comming. Yes to be honest our late Pastor T.U.Thomas himself said that no church is perfect. Every church has their own way of growing in the Lord. Lets not forget that.Talking about Pastors and hitting the points, well for every truth there is an oppossition and for every percesuction there is a revival. Our church or in other words TPM is not just speaking the truth(every church does that) but they are bringing a believer into to deeper truth. So its natural for pastors or people who leave this faith and go to be hurt and also have some kind of an hatred.Rather than talking about the same issue lets start to pray for them. God still loves them. It does not matter if he/she belongs to this faith or not. Christians lack one thing that is love. I'am sure if Pastor Don were to know about these kind issues he would just show them the first thing that is love. Even as the Bible says "set you mind on heavenly things" if we set our thoughts on good things and eternall things we will not have any problem in our life.I have just added to the above comment. rencin24

Please clarify Indigenous
I do not understand the word indigenous in the introductory sentence:
 * The Pentecostal Mission, formerly known as Ceylon Pentecostal Mission, is one of the largest indigenous pentecostal Christian denominations in the world with a membership of at least 5 million believers.

(I am not a native speaker of English; but I think I am reasonably fluent in English).

My dictionary says: What is then the difference between indigenous pentecostal denominations and non-indigenous pentecostal denominations? Is a non-indigenous denomination a denomination that originated in one part of the world and then moved to another part?
 * indigenous : adj. native; belonging naturally to a place; originating from a place

Can someone perhaps give an example of a non-indigenous pentecostal denomination to clarify the term?

The introductory sentence suggests that the Pentecostal Mission is not the largest pentecostal Christian denomination in the world. Is it correct that the largest pentecostal denominations are non-indigenous?

I'll insert link to indigenous in the article text, however that still does not clarify the term in this context.

Please clarify the introductory sentence of this article. Johan Lont 11:08, 28 March 2007 (UTC)

Comments from 203.200.236.205
Can you reply me why TPM Pastors are hatred of Pastor Alwin R. de Alwis who has laid firm foundation for TPM?

I have heard from my grand father that Pastor Alwin R. de Alwis is one of the key person through whom God laid strong foundation for The Pentecostal Mission. Through him God did so many miracles and he had good revelations through holy spirit. He was giving shoulder to Paster Paul. But why now a days Pentecostal people want to put down Pastor Alwin? Just why do TPM want to high light Pastor Paul and not Pastor Alwin? Is it just because majority members of TPM is Malayalees or from Kerala? What wrong Pastor Alwin did? It's not TPM to justify about Pastor Alwin? It's going to be a real shock for TPM when they see Pastor Alwin in heaven in glorious place. God is going to justify everyone and their deeds. I heard Pastor Alwin was beaten up by other Pastor's of TPM just to make son of Pastor Paul as chief Pastor and some stories were cooked off by Kerala People that he was naked in his room. Even if he is naked in his room God only knows he would have been in his higher spiritual divine experience where Adam and Eve were not knowing that they were naked before they did sin. But as far as all Pentecostal people know Pastor Alwin was a very disciplined person who has been a model for many TPM believers. Even Pastor Alwin's entire family was fully dedicated for the ministry and all of us should be thankful for hsi sacrificial work. Can you tell why this happened in this pentecostal mission? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 203.200.236.205 (talk)
 * This is the talk page for discussing improvements to the The Pentecostal Mission article.
 * This is not a forum for general discussion about the article's subject. --OnoremDil 12:44, 31 May 2007 (UTC)

WHY DO YOU HATE MALAYALEES? I THINK YOU ARE MORE RACIST THAN CONCERNED FOR PS ALWIN. AND WHENEVER I HAVE ATTENDED UPC IT IS FILLED WITH SRI LANKENS AND ALL THE WOMAN GOSIP LIKE AS IF THEY DIDNT PAY ANY ATTENTION TO ANY OF THE SERMONS THEREFORE SIGNILLING THAT MORE THAN A CHURCH IT IS MORE OF A SRI-LANKEN COMMUNITY CENTRE!!! —Preceding unsigned comment added by 90.192.34.44 (talk • contribs)
 * Please try to remain civil, and use the talk page to improve the article instead of debate the topic. --OnoremDil 12:53, 31 May 2007 (UTC)

FORMER UPC MEMBER - DOCTRINE ABSURDITY
Under UPC doctrines why do you baptize people in the Name of the father son and holy ghost when it clearly states:

'Acts 2:38 "Then Peter said unto them, repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of JESUS CHRIST for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost."

Acts 19:3-5 "And he said unto them, unto what then were ye baptized? And they said, unto Johns baptism. Then said Paul, John verily baptized with baptism of repentence, saying unto the people, that they should believe on him which should come after him, that is, Christ Jesus. When they heard this they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus."

Galatians 3:27 "For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ."

Ephesians 4:5 "One Lord, one faith, one baptism."

Doesn't this all indicate clearly that we should be baptised in the Name of Jesus since the father son and H/S are all one?

Also bible states that in the name of Jesus our sins are forgiven, in the name of Jesus we are healed etc indicating that "in the name of Jesus" should be used for baptizim also since Jesus died on the cross for our since???

I was a former member the UPC but found some of your doctrines rather confusing and absurd and not supported by scriptures in the bible. Do you create some of these doctrines yourselves?

We were once told by Pastor TU Thomas that we were not allowed to attend church unless my father also attended?? We therefore left the church for many years. Under what doctrine and scripture verses is declining us from your church just becuase we dont have a father who wants to attend church backed up by?

anonomous 31st may 2007 — Preceding unsigned comment added by 90.192.34.44 (talk)


 * This is the talk page for discussing improvements to the The Pentecostal Mission article.
 * This is not a forum for general discussion about the article's subject. --OnoremDil 12:44, 31 May 2007 (UTC)

- once again UPC ignores the truth. I will leave it at this since clearly you yourselves are unable to answer many of the absurd doctrines you pose. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 90.192.34.44 (talk)

In reply to the FORMER UPC MEMBER - DOCTRINE ABSURDITY
Dear friend reading through your article it seemed to me that someone has rather blinded you or confused you with all these kinds of informations. First of all taking baptisim in the Name of Jesus is NOT AT ALL WORNG neither do I say that it is correct.

Everything has got an order and a proper method in which the church of Christ follows. to be more clear the doctrines of this Church is not man made but as the Church claims its from God. St Paul, writing letter to the church of Galatia he say " Oh foolish Galations, who hath blinded you......" in other words to say who has made you to believe in blind belief or who has bewitched you into what is half truth and half correct. Deception is half truth and half correct. You are alearly right when it come to taking baptism in the name of Jesus, but not fully correct I know a group of people who claim such a doctrine...they are the JESUS ONLY GROUP. Well am not bothered about what they believe but just want to turn your focus on the commandment of Jesus in the book of Matthew 28:19 " Go therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy ghost." Jesus asked them to teach abt baptism in the name of FATHER SON AND HOLY GHOST. Jesus said these words to show that trinity is included and is very much needed to be named when we take or give baptism. Note the point it is not on what Peter said today the church follows the order of baptism, but under the direct command of Jesus Himself. So to conclude I could say more to show you JESUS ONLY baptism will not take you to heaven, listen you need to be born of the water and of the Spirit too. Water shows the word of God. Taking baptism according to word of God and getting or receving baptism of the Holy Spirit is also relavent according to the word of God. And regarding your father and church, people can only command you to not to come but if you know the truth and if you do not obey the truth God will ask you for that. We shall meeet very soon. Untill then God bless!! rencin24 18:46, 7 June 2007 (UTC) rencin24

Doctrines and teachings
Hey can someone add the broken likns or just take away the brofen links from the feil Doctrines and teachings ???? It will nice to look at a page with no broken links rather with broken links if its not done in a week I will be forced to take it away. Thanks. rencin24 19:02, 7 June 2007 (UTC) rencin24

Can you reply me why TPM Pastors are hatred of Pastor Alwin R. de Alwis who has laid firm foundation for TPM?
Please understand one thing clearly. No one is hatred of malayalees. We always treat every one equally, he may be any caste, ... Every one are equal to God and God is doing his great work on every individual. As you said I am not more racist ? I am not only concerned about Pastor ALWIN. I am concerned about all Pastors who sincerely work for God. I don't know what is UPC? Whether it is UPC or CPM or IPC or TPM - only the church which follows the full doctrine will be taken up in the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ. One thing my beloved Brother remember - there are small churces they really do sincere work of God fulfilling all doctrines according to the word of God. I know very well during the time of Pastor Alwin, holy spirit and faith has guided the church CPM even to fulfill the humbleness which Jesus told to follow and did that practically also. But now what is the state of TPM? They are not at all following that main doctrine. Jesus washed the feet of St. Peter and said if any one not obeying this truth he won't have place with me. And also the Lord's supper was given those days during night times during the days of Pastor Alwin though it is not a commandment. But what I am coming to tell is that Pastor Alwin and Pastor Paul were very faithful to follow every doctrines and I am sure they will be in zion. But what happened to those doctrines today? But there are lot of small churches though they are in poverty but by faith they do fulfill the commandds of Jesus christ. So it is going to be a shock & surprise in heaven. So brother please don't hide the name of Pastor Alwin in your messages because God did powerful ministry through such a disciplined, dedicated, devoted and determined person. But I am whole heartedly accept all the doctrined which was followed by TPM because they are said in Bible and as such they follow very strictly. But the only pain is why they have left few important doctrines like washing the feet each other (i.e) brother with another brother's feet and sister with another sister's feet. Olden days CPM followed this doctrine but when members of the church increased they have violated this doctrine and they also give Lord's supper in day time. In olden days Lord's supper was given by having full night prayer. It is not Lunch ot break fast - It is supper which we cannot have as we like. It has to be taken up night time as early apostles did. Atleast we should follow those doctrines from now on wards. Even I wish to inform all these to Pastor Wesley, Pastor Manoharan. Let them pray well and holyspirit will never give them revelation against the word of God written in Bible. If they surely follow these two true doctrined it's not an individual person but God will testimony TPM as the perfect church. Brother will you take this points to Chief Pastor and do the good work for church? Beloved brother don't think I am racist.... These good doctrines are not opened for many churches but now holy spirit has knocked your heart. Please brother try to obey the word of God. We should treat all the Pastors in respectable manner. They have all rights to correct us. So let us not hide the good works done by Pastor Alwin. I know all the Pastors of TPM give more importance only to Biblical words and not to worldly fame or pleasures. So I am very sure that they won't miss this good doctrines. Let us not just say that humbleness has to be in heart and let us show by deed also like Jesus Christ. Let us reveal Christ's divine nature. If you just say humbleness should be only in our heart then everyone will start saying that they have everything in their heart and they will start saying that they need not express it outside. Example: We don't have love of wearing Jewellesin heart, so it is expressed by deed. That is, it is revealed outside. In the same way following a doctrine like washing one another's feet has to be followed literally. For example, If there are 2000 believers in a church those who are going to part take in Lord's supper it is easy to wash their feet by having water in 10 big jars. It is going to take half an hour time. But please don't skip that valuable doctrine. For God every individual is important and church should treat every individual as child of God. So don't blow small small bitterness of your personal ego like few people in TPM on Pastor Alwin and don't hide his wonderful ministry and don't forget his entire family has sacrified themselves for God's glorious ministry. Every Pastor who is obeying the doctrines of Jesus Christ they have been called by God. So beating a Pastor just for taking up his position, blaming unwanted things about his true revelation, won't be accepted in his divine presence. So try to have a true divine heart to express his marvellous work done by him through the support of holy spirit. As like other people never he has boasted himself. Such a humble Pastor Alwin has been beaten up by a community in TPM means God will never forgive those people. Whether it may be malayalee or tamilian or srilankan God will never accept such horrible things. So brother this is the right time to repent back and don't go on doing the wrong things like hiding his name from TPM. If you again start hiding him then you may face judgement day.

A reply to Pastor Alwin's issue
Hello friend, First of all i really do not understand as to why you keep talking abt the same topic over and over again. Listen we all know and everyone agree that pastor Alwin was really a great servant of God to be honest am not sure if he is still there, if so alive then I would long to meet this wonderfull man of God. Such good and great things have I heard abt him. Yes its also true that i know and many know abt his or the church's fault. To be honest and true...you have to know these points that I believe and and want to share with you.

1. GOD is the author and founder of this church NOT PASTOR PAUL as you think. He just used himas a vessel to start this church. If this church really was founded by one of them then they could have named as Paul Ramankutty Pentecostal Mission P.R.P.M to it really sounds funny.

2. Every tounge, every tribe and every nation will come to praise the name of the Lord. My Bible says so...it does not say every malu or every Srilankan or every India will come and praise the Lord. Thank God that these were not Jews.....ha ha ha ha ha....funny.

3. Every person called to this ministry is not Christlike, they have come to attain Christlikness so it might take some time and also it might be that they are still on the process of being called to Zion even when they are in the ministry feild.

4. Its not just ppl or saints from this church who go to Zion there were many others too. Charles the founder of Methodist says to be unmarried is the highest order of calling. In heaven the highest order of dwelling place is Zion. Many saints like Saint Augustine, and many more people who did not marry. They may or may not go to Zion. It is not in the ppl's hand but in God's hand. So leave wat is happened in the past and look forward to His comming. rencin24 20:23, 8 June 2007 (UTC)

Pastor Alwin's issue
Dear beloved brother, Thankyou for not speaking against the word of God and holyspirit. I humble myself in the presence of God to tell one truth. Why I wrote more things about Pastor Alwin is "He has not come to this ministry of sacrifice just because he didn't get any job or just because he didn't have any source to live in this world. He was working as a professor and he was well settled in his life but just because he had the vision of Christ and he had the experience of hearing our shephard's voice he left his job not only that his whole family obeyed our Shephard's(Christ) voice and TPM grew during his life time enormously. Other things you would have heard through our Pastors. Those days they had no food for more than 10 days. Just imagine Brother his entire family starved without food and without proper clothing those days. you may not aware of all about how God done miracles through him. So we should be thankful for his worderful ministry. It's not just to make fun or to time pass. Pastor Alwin is now in paradise(3rd heaven) and during the secret coming of Jesus Christ he will be resurrected and transformed and he will meet jesus christ in the mid sky. But many saints of God had seen him in vision as like he is walking in Golden Street of heaven. I will pray that we should also see Jesus Christ with such wonderful saints of God. It is too late for us and we cannot see Pastor Alwin now in this world. Brother, as you wrote I accept and I know that a church doesn't belong to a single person like Pastor Alwin or Pastor Paul. Every one are servants of God and they were used by God. Brother, who am I to speak against the doctrines of Christ? I am dust ... As I said earlier I have never spoke against any doctrines of TPM because we know they are followed according to the word of God. But holyspirit's desire is TPM should fulfill some doctrines which they followed during their early faith, early hope and early Love. I am very new to this discussion section and when I read few discussions held earlier holy spirit revealed me that many people without knowing the truth just they write ill about Pastor Alwin and about the doctrines followed by TPM. That's why Holyspirit invoked me to show what is right and what is wrong. As told by God, I had wrote everything and nothing more to write about the doctrines or about Pastor Alwin or about the TPM.

Conclusion:

1) Doctrines like washing the feet has to be followed literally to show humbleness of our Lord Jesus Christ.

2) Lord's supper has to be given during night time as done by early apostles period.

3) Please let us not encourage any one to blow ill about any true servants of God because their sacrifice is unimaginable and we are not worth to speak about them.

4) God is very much pleased about TPM ministry because they have never allowed sin to enter anyone's life in their ministry. Every one treat each other as like Brother and Sister and Servants of God, they even wait for God to cure their diseases. They are faithful in that doctrine and God is so much pleased on their ministry.

Let Trinity God lead every one of us into Perfection. Praise the Lord.

Dear friend if the church was in my hands then I would have honestly prayed and done wat the Lord told me to...but now as we all the church is in the hands of the God and saints of God all we can do is just pray that God would speak. Regarding washing of feets well Jesus did it to show the humility that we need to have. You can still wash someone's feet and forgive but still not forget it. So its better that we make it not mandatory but leave it to the Holy Spirit to do. YES there are occasions where in some assemblies they do it sometime. May God lead as He desires.

As for Pastor Alwin I do not want to speak on this topic anymore but my prayer for him is only few.....Thank you Jesus and May his soul rest in peace. God blees. rencin24 17:09, 11 June 2007 (UTC) rencin24

REPLY In reply to the FORMER UPC MEMBER - DOCTRINE ABSURDITY
Thank you for your reply! John 3:16-17 says, "For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life. For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but to save the world through him."

As Colossians 1:15 says, "He [Christ] is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation." Jesus provides eternal hope, through God's grace, for everyone who believes He is Lord.

God loves the world and all He has created. However, people have chosen to separate from God through our sins. Jesus provides the bridge for us to receive God's grace of forgiveness for our sins and fulfill the hope of eternal life. This was the purpose of Jesus Christ and why Jesus is Lord. God sent Jesus to earth over 2000 years ago to set the example of how God desires everyone to live while on earth. He completed His purpose by willingly being crucified so God could be glorified through His resurrection. He lived His life while here on earth in perfect obedience to God regardless of the pain and suffering it entailed which included beatings, humiliation, doubt, ridicule, and finally ultimate execution with His limbs pierced and pinned to a cross.

Jesus led a life that was completely obedient to God; something we cannot do regardless how hard we try through our will power or by the level of wisdom we possess. Everyone has sinned except Christ; He was perfect in love. This is only something God can be. Jesus performed over 23 documented and witnessed miracles over nature, overcoming death and powers of healing that have never been matched or done in the history of the world. Jesus had powers that only God could possess. He had the ability to predict the future as indicated in the book of Mark, verse 14:72 and the book of Matthew, verse 16:18. Jesus honored God throughout every event in His life. He was humble and gentle mirroring God's Spirit. This is further proof why Jesus is Lord. There is no other faith in the world that can provide the evidence that Jesus is the Lord. Jesus still lives in heaven at the right hand of God. We cannot see Him, but must rely on the documented facts and His message of salvation for all who believe in Him. When choose to place our faith in Jesus Christ and trust God, He has promised to secure a place in heaven for each of us.

Seeing as the father son and h/s are one and the same and that JESUS CHRIST IS LORD, then taking water baptism in either father son and the holy spirit or in the name of Jesus I assume either of them are neither wrong/correct.

Trully we have a merciful loving and compassionate God that he may not send me down to Hell just for taking water baptism in the Name of Jesus. No one can decide this but the Lord Jesus christ himself as it does not state in the bible that if we take water baptism in the Name of Jesus we are going to Hell. The Lord knows our heart and only he will decide.

With regards to being declined from your church I would have much rather TU thomas or someone in your organization prayed for us rather than just declining. That really did hurt! Even though this happend many years ago, my father still does not attend a church, I would appreciate it if you could pray that he does go to a church with correct teachings. We have prayed for many years that he should have a better relationship with christ and are trully faithful that the Lord will touch him.

Thank you.

Correction Needed
The first 3 para looks like it needs some changes. It is written like you are publishing about TPM here. Am so sorry to say but I will have to change it and edit cause Wikipedia is nt to publish things or articles or even to promote its an information site. So please edit it in a correct way or I will change it in a weeks time from the period of notice, that is today. Thank you. rencin24 rencin24 18:18, 28 June 2007 (UTC)

I agree with the above post - someone has placed 'propaganda' - I have tidied up a bit but the start of the article sounds like a rant from newly converted zealot who obviously doesn't know why and how wikipedia works !! TPM does not have 7 million believers worldwide - please see my calculation in the discussion page. You need to back up your figures with facts.Earlof wessex67 20:37, 27 July 2007 (UTC)

tpm has probably 200 - 250,000 members the world over (ie communicants at the 'Lord's Supper') - the figure of 7 million believers worldwide is wrong - see discussion above for clarification - if you have 7 million believers then attendance of 100,000 for the biggest convention in Madras is a very, very poor show indeed - wonder what the 24/7 care is doing to the rest of the believers - they are either comatose or have run away ??!!).

the first part of the article is just one long propaganda 'tract' - not wikipedia facts at all ! Also - who defined 'racism of Indians' - that is a serious charge !!! Earlof wessex67 21:02, 27 July 2007 (UTC)

I just corrected the above mentioned section. RS CA 69.108.164.158 —Preceding unsigned comment added by 69.108.164.158 (talk) 04:39, 14 September 2007 (UTC)

Passersby Observation
Hi there. Peace be with you, fellow brethren. I'm a Christian from the Lutheran denomination, and I wish to applaud the people who have taken pains to make sure that this particular page has been documented well enough. However to be really impartial in my observation, I wish to also say that the language tone used in this particular piece leans towards partiality, hence rendering the neutrality of the tone of text absent. This is a cause for concern because rather than telling and speaking of the virtues of TPM (as is the intention of the writers) the opposite connotation is evoked.

As a pass-through visitor and a fan of wikipedia, may I be so bold as to recommend that a more factual narration be utilized in the editing of this particular entry?

Thanks for hearing me out. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Special:Contributions/ (talk)

Tone
The overall tone of this article does not accurately reflect the neutral point of view that is required according to the Five Pillars of Wikipedia article.

Saying things like, 'They pray and preach sermons that are considered to be extremely deep in the truths of the bible' is advancing a non-neutral point of view, because it pre-supposes the validity of that belief.

Chrisstiles 23:00, 14 September 2007 (UTC)

From Pentecostal Mission Talk Page
Here is the content from the Talk Page of the Pentecostal Mission, now a disambiguation page.

Thanks
The page is good. thanks for your efforts.

It may not be my effort alone if all of you would contubute to this more and more.Thanks.

This page needs to expose the misinterpretations of TPM by which it is deceiving the believers

Page Done
HEY GUYS THE PAGE HAS BEEN DONE AND HAS ALREADY BEEN UPDATED IN THE LINK BELOW. I HOPE ALL OF YOU WOULD BE CO-OPERATIVE IN THIS MATTER AND IN THIS PAGE TOO. LETS NOT DO ANOTHER MISTAKE TOO. I HAVE DONE ALL I CAN DO TO GET THE INFORMATION FROM NY OWN NOT FROM ANY OTHER SOURCE. I HAVE DONE IT BY MYSELF FROM THE SCRATCH. I HOPE THERE ARE NO ISSUES WITH IT. THANKS. RENCIN MATTHEW. rencin24.rencin24 10:50, 20 September 2006 (UTC)[] Here is the link

Sources for NPOV rewrite
See also Walter H. Clifford. Bah! Article is missing.
 * http://www.apts.edu/ajps/05-1/05-1-RHedlund.pdf
 * http://www.missionstudies.org/conference/1papers/fp/Roger_Hedlund_Full_Paper.pdf

Pjacobi 09:59, 12 September 2006 (UTC)


 * ISBN 0521532809 has some pages on it. --Pjacobi 10:02, 12 September 2006 (UTC)


 * The intro appears to be a copyvio from the second source. Guettarda 15:22, 12 September 2006 (UTC)
 * Actually most of it is a copyvio. I have tagged it as such.  Guettarda 15:27, 12 September 2006 (UTC)

copyright info
DO YOU HAVE COPYRIGHT INFO ON THE REFERRED TO PAPER? THERE SEEMS TO BE NO SUCH INFO ANYWHERE IN THE PDF DOCUMENT. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 67.83.163.225 (talk • contribs) Pjacobi 21:51, 12 September 2006 (UTC)


 * Hello 67.83.163.225, welcome to Wikipedia.
 * You, and the other contributors to the article Pentecostal Mission unfortunately have missed some important points:
 * Wikipedia is not the place to set up "your website", e.g for "Pentecostal Mission".
 * It is not O.K. to copy and paste information found on other websites or in books to Wikipedia articles.
 * Wikipedia articles are intended to obey the Neutral point of view, i.e. they should be written like from a neutral, external, observer.
 * Anyway, if you're still interested in contributing, by all means do so! You may want to read Five pillars and other help pages to get a better understanding of the workings of Wikipedia.
 * Pjacobi 21:51, 12 September 2006 (UTC)

Does NPOV mean that people can post false information misleading the readers? There were many statements in the article that defamed people and the church. I am just wondering how we can keep a check on something like that.

I just want ot know wether I aslo can be apart of this page managing. Seeing as to wether there are any wrong informations posted and so I could help you like that. rencin24 06:39, 13 September 2006 (UTC)§


 * To start with, we must know whether this version should be deleted because of copyright infringement or whether the copyright owners allowed publication under GFDL. If you can quickly clarify that this is not the case, we just delete the old version and start new. --Pjacobi 06:50, 13 September 2006 (UTC)


 * The old version of this article has large parts which are verbatim copies of the paper by Roger Hellund. But we don't have a permission by Roger Hellung to publish his article, let alone under GFDL. If you can't provide this permission, the article must be re-written from scratch. --Pjacobi 13:34, 13 September 2006 (UTC)

No Matter
It does'nt matter, because I have already got one copy of this and a book that contains the growth and the present things happening too. May be I could help in doing that.May be I can help you rewrite the whole documents.rencin24 10:50, 20 September 2006 (UTC) rencin24

sent an email to author
I have sent an email to the author asking him permission. We will wait and see what the response if any, will be. SPM

Who is the author to whom you have sent an E-mail too?rencin24 07:24, 15 September 2006 (UTC)


 * Presumably s/he means Roger Hedlund, the author whose work was plagiarised. Guettarda 12:00, 15 September 2006 (UTC)

Yes, I did email it to the author Mr. Roger Hedlund. No reply as of yet. SPM sept 15.

Hey why do we have to mail it to him for it if you do not mind then I can help you out with more details that you need in further. As you see I have already got a copy the churuch history book of TPM. There we have more details that are clear and neat for us to edit about.rencin24

I think it's better to re-write the article from scratch than depending on another author. If any suggestions please post here. We can start in the temp page.

I agree
I think it is better for us to start from scratch than to depend on others, I have also another copy from the churuch itself. May be it can be of some help to you guys.

'''Hello Rencin, I wish you display zeal for Christ rather than for human distorters of God's word. Hope you know those distortions and be transformed by His Holy Spirit. You have suppressed many informations of CPM.'''

Hey all
Hey all I have started to build the page from scratch. I hope you would like to check it out!![]rencin24 12:59, 19 September 2006 (UTC)

Page Almost Done!
Hey guys the page that is not there had been done from the scratch. I do hope you guys will all be co-operative and go further in doing the good job.Rencn Matthew. rencin24

Hi Friends

Many do not provide the emails when doing the editing. This isn't appropriate.

God bless

Rencin, hope you work for God's kingdom rather than for TPM

Hello SPM !!
May I know as to which place you are from? If you are feeling free then please do mail me.Thanks for all the great work you are doing man. You know what, I would really need some of Pastor Don's snaps if possible you could send it to me. I have a page that is about his life alone. That's the reason.Thanks.[] Rencin Matthew. Mail merencin24 12:33, 22 September 2006 (UTC)

Aepoutre 18:15, 27 September 2007 (UTC)

'''Hello Rencin, I wish you display zeal for Christ rather than for human distorters of God's word. Hope you know those distortions and be transformed by His Holy Spirit. You have suppressed many informations of CPM.'''

upc posting removal
how dare u remove these piece on upc merely because u are fanatic enough to not want a views other than your own to expose the problem with this organisation. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 62.31.13.121 (talk) 15:45, 5 October 2007 (UTC)


 * See the message at the very top of the page? This is the talk page for discussing improvements to the The Pentecostal Mission article. This is not a forum for general discussion about the article's subject.
 * Not that it matters, but I basically have no opinion on this organization, and I'm definitely no fanatic. I'd appreciate it if you didn't accuse me, someone who you have no way of knowing anything about, of having motives other than improving the encyclopedia. Try to assume good faith.
 * If you think there are problems with the article, feel free to bring them up here.
 * If you think there are problems with the religion, you'll need to find another place to set up your soapbox. --Onorem♠Dil 15:51, 5 October 2007 (UTC)

I agree
I totally agree 100 percent with Onorem about what he has made the abo ve comment...also adding to what he has said it will be nice if you can use soft words rather than using "how dare you" to Onorem. Its not just Onorem alone but it will be fair enough if you can learn the Wikipedia language terms before even you talk to others. Thank you. rencin24

Netural Point
Hi all,

I have seen a lot of sections where the article is written in the neutral point. Please be noted that Wikipedia is not there to write articles as you want and to let people know what the church does but rather put the informations about the church.

A comment for this
"I agree with the above post - someone has placed 'propaganda' - I have tidied up a bit but the start of the article sounds like a rant from newly converted zealot who obviously doesn't know why and how wikipedia works !! TPM does not have 7 million believers worldwide - please see my calculation in the discussion page. You need to back up your figures with facts.Earlof wessex67 20:37, 27 July 2007 (UTC)

tpm has probably 200 - 250,000 members the world over (ie communicants at the 'Lord's Supper') - the figure of 7 million believers worldwide is wrong - see discussion above for clarification - if you have 7 million believers then attendance of 100,000 for the biggest convention in Madras is a very, very poor show indeed - wonder what the 24/7 care is doing to the rest of the believers - they are either comatose or have run away ??!!)." 

Also note that in the above one user has commented saying that the over all members are not 7 million. Though the article does not cite any source or link to it i can let you know this much, that not all the members of the church come to the international conventions. So that is not to be counted. But I can find out let you know the approximate count. 7 million is not for sure whoever put that. Anyone who is editing the article i ask you to always note the neutral point while writing the article in this page.Thank you rencin24

number of global TPM adherents
The Hindu paper reference (1) refers to a possible total number of pentecostal adherents either in Kerala / South India or the whole of India. Operation World 2001 (Johnstone & Mandryk) Paternoster Lifestyle lists 3.89 million Pentecostals in India with a growth rate of 7.5% per annum. Sri Lanka had just under 5000 CPM adherents in 2001. In Sri Lanka, Pentecostals as a whole (ie AoG assemblies, FourSquare, CPM etc) increased 6.3% per annum (from Operation World). TPM does not constitute the whole number of Pentecostal adherents in India ! The number quoted from the Hindu paper at the top of this article is therefore wrong ie it does NOT refer to TPM/CPM denomination alone but to the whole number of Pentecostal adherents in India or South India. I would estimate a world-wide TPM / CPM adherents of around 150 - 200,000. Of these, the vast majority would be located in Kerala / Tamil Nadu. The Adaiyar (Chennai) annual convention draws around 100,000 or so. Colombo Mattakuliya convention draws a few thousand (under 5000). USA possibly 1000 +. In all other countries, annual conventions draw in a few hundred each. The number of 150 - 200,000 would be a more plausible number. The article should be corrected to reflect this. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 138.37.202.142 (talk) 13:21, 25 October 2007 (UTC)

I agree partly
Well agree partly with the above user. In kerala alone you might find around 60,000 or so and in Andhra Pradesh also you would find the same number and now in Karanataka you are able to find almost 10 -13,000, and besides that you might as well count all these and also have other states also counted and I feel we have more than 200,000 in India alone I guess you will find around 2 or 2.5 or even 300,000. Well you can just bring together all of the other countries and know what the number will be. But I don agree to it's members being 200,00. It's more than that. For sure. The problem is, the church is not willing to either have count or a census done. So I guess that is why we do not have a proper count or all these problems. If someone can find the close number or count that's better. rencin24 --rencin24 18:39, 29 October 2007 (UTC)

Hi

I think SPM has not registered. I think it is not ethical. Does anyone know SPM's email ?

God bless.

'TPM's misinterpretations need to be included so that the believers are warned of the end time false teaching. TPM's pet doctrines like Celibacy belong to pas. Alwin who was converted from Catholicism. These and many others need to be exposed.'

Comment from Roshni.roshni
Onorem has vandalised by removing edits. I warn that person. Roshni.roshni 13:33, 3 December 2007 (UTC)
 * You were sticking your own unsigned soapboxing comments into the middle of other peoples statements, while removing some of their own comments.
 * You then blanked the entire page, and replaced it with another soapbox rant.
 * That's not acceptable use for a talk page.
 * If you want to warn me, it should be done on my talk page, not here...but you might want to read WP:VAND before you label my edits vandalism. --Onorem♠Dil 13:43, 3 December 2007 (UTC)

Come on onorem, be sensible. You are warned for vandalising. You have no right to erase edits of others which is unethical. That is not acceptable practise. Before removing the edits of others you have not informed the talk page either. Stop your ranting. You are warned.Rencin 13:48, 3 December 2007 (UTC)
 * If you want to warn me, it should be done on my talk page, not here...but you might want to read WP:VAND before you label my edits vandalism. I stand behind my reversion. --Onorem♠Dil 13:50, 3 December 2007 (UTC)
 * Did you lose your password Rencin ...or did someone else just register an account to impersonate you and "warn" me again... --Onorem♠Dil 13:52, 3 December 2007 (UTC)

Please be alert
'''Come on onorem, be sensible. You are warned for vandalising. You have no right to erase edits of others which is unethical. That is not acceptable practise. Before removing the edits of others you have not informed the talk page either. Stop your ranting. You are warned.Rencin 13:48, 3 December 2007 (UTC)'''

Hi Onorem... please be careful of this user whoever this is that has done this is not me and besides I hv not lost my password. I am there, it's just that I was unable to comeonline for some reason. Please be careful of this user or whoever this might be. Am so sorry! My appologies to you in that talk page of The Pentecostal Mission. Please try your best and block the IP address if you can. I think he or she does not who they are talking to. Some of the conversations does seem to be false. Be very careful.

Thanks, Rencin Matthew. rencin24

Assessment comment
Substituted at 15:57, 1 May 2016 (UTC)