Talk:The Pogues/Archive 1

A question about citations
Can posts by Phil Chevron (example) at the Pogues' official forum be used as sources? Just wondering.

Max Elstein 16:52, 4 September 2007 (UTC)

Template
"Members" and "Former Members" should both be moved to the band Template at the top. Just tried to do this, but something's up with the template -specifically the members slot. I've tinkered over and over with it (see history), and it still doesn't work. I based my edits on the System of a down band template which definitely does work, as opposed to a first hand knowlegde of how the template works, and the syntax is now IDENTICAL, Some help please? -Zepheriah 01:34, 26 December 2006 (UTC)
 * That template is obsolete and deprecated, the article should be using Infobox musical artist instead. I'll try to get back and fix this before too long if nobody else does.  Oh, and BTW, new discussion topics are supposed to go at the bottom of the talk page, not the top (no biggie, really, but it can be confusing when comments aren't in chronological order).  Xtifr tälk 20:24, 29 December 2006 (UTC)

Worldwide recognition
I think this page fails to give proper recognition to the bands popularity in the USA and Spain for that matter. Especially New York and their appearance on saturday night live and I really see no similarity with the clash definately Tom Waits though.
 * Have you listened to Red Roses for Me? Definitely more punk than IISFFGWG or RS&tL. Plus, Shane's said the Clash had an influence on him, and bands that have influences don't always sound anything like the influences stated, it's all in the heads of the musicians. --Blackcap | talk 17:08, 13 September 2005 (UTC)

Name
I was under the impression the pogues were named after the pogue of celtic folklore, a horse, who once mounted, would run into the sea drowning its rider. But a search for refrence to this horse brought up nothing for me. Prehaps I'm confusing the name of the horse, it's been awhile since I read about it. Anyone out there who can enlighten me I would appreciate it. Also Tom Waits and the Pogues definatly have less of a connection then the Pogues and the Clash, the clash are to ragea/punk as the pogues are to irish/punk. - Unsigned post by 69.164.98.40. --Blackcap What's the pronunciation of the name? Does it rhyme with "rogues"? --LostLeviathan 18:48, 8 September 2005 (UTC)
 * Definitely not. The name was chosen as the aglicization of póg mo thóin, which is Irish for "kiss my ass." See "A Drink with Shane MacGowan" (can't remember the page, sorry, and I don't have my copy on me) for proof. There's a very funny story about them playing on the BBC, and an Irishman called in, saying, "These fellows are brilliant. Do you know what their name means? Do your know what their name means in Irish? This is the best stuff you've had on in years. Do you know what their name means?" He was falling over laughing, and the host of the show said, "Oh, do enlighten us," and he said, "It means kiss my arse!" The BBC man said, "Well, I'm sure that our listeners would like to know that, so here's the next number from "Kiss my Arse!" It got up to the chief, who promptly banned the band, and their next album went platinum. I know the story you're talking about, though, about the horse. I'm sorry that I can't remember the name of that story either, although I recall it being recorded by Douglas Hyde. --Blackcap | talk 21:40, September 2, 2005 (UTC)
 * I did some research, and the horse you're thinking of is either a kelpie, as said below, or it's Irish equivalent, the Each-Uisge (Ech-ooshkya) or Aughisky (Agh-iski). The Irish version, after carrying you into the sea, will tear you to pieces leaving nothing but the liver (from Faeries, by Brian Froud and Alan Lee, pub. Harry N. Abrams copy. 1978 and 2002). It can be ridden inland safely, but if it smells or sees sea water you'll be a dead man. --Blackcap | talk 17:18, September 5, 2005 (UTC)
 * Yes, it does, that's exactly right. --Blackcap | talk 17:03, 13 September 2005 (UTC)

Discography
Is there any particular reason why the discography includes one EP ('Poguetry In Motion') and one single ('Yeah Yeah Yeah Yeah yeah') randomly dropped in among the albums?

And in answer to the questiono of the origin of their name, they were definitiely originally called Pogue Mahone, as I recall John Peel playing them back in the early eighties. As I recall, there was a DJ on Edinburgh's Radio Forth (but it could have been one of the other Radio 1 guys, like Kid Jensen) who started calling them The Pogues, though I think it was more just a shortening of the name, than any concern for the rudeness of its meaning.

The horse who drowned it's rider is a kelpie.

Speaking of pogue mahone, the band has an album called this, but instead of a link to information on that album, it simply redirects to the beginning of the article. I think that may need to be changed. Either remove the link, or create an article on the album and stop redirection to the band from "pogue mahone". I apologize if this is in the wrong place, but I've never actually used the discussion page before.

Frank Ryan
The song The Sick Bed Of Cuchuliann, features the line Frank Ryan bought you whisky in a brothel in Madrid ... This Frank Ryan? Cutler 18:34, July 26, 2005 (UTC)
 * I really doubt it. But it does bring up the question of why, if he's the only Frank Ryan with an article, he's at Frank Ryan (football player) rather than Frank Ryan. -R. fiend 19:45, 26 July 2005 (UTC)
 * No. This Frank Ryan. Palmiro 14:11, 8 August 2005 (UTC)
 * You can read what Shane has to say about those lyrics in "A Drink with Shane MacGowan." It's referring to the Irish Republican Frank Ryan, the "laughing cavalier of the Old IRA," as Shane put it. Frank Ryan went to Spain to fight against Franco along with a number of other IRA men, which explains the lyric. Read some more about it at the Annotated Pogues Lyrics Page here. --Blackcap | talk 21:45, September 2, 2005 (UTC)

Modern Picture
There should be a picture of the band from last years U.K tours, The picture of the Original line-up is some-what missleading. &mdash;Preceding comment by Simon Maguire - 11:31, November 17, 2005: Please sign your posts!
 * How so? It would be great if you had a picture of them in recent times, but I wouldn't say that this picture is misleading. It's a perfectly accurate, old, picture, and a nice one. Although it's not how they look now, times change, and since it can be hard to find images we can use, we have to take what we can get. But by all means, if you have a modern picture of them, please add it to the article. That'll do nothing but enhance it. Blackcap | talk 20:41, 17 November 2005 (UTC)
 * I don't like the "modern" picture replacing the pic of the original band, it should have been an addition rather than a replacement. It rather depressing to see modern pics of bands like KISS...it's nice to remember how great they once were :)  SkaTroma 22:32, 16 January 2006 (UTC)

instead of ther age of the picture we should be thinking about the content. the picture does not have macgowan on it and he is the most famous member and the figurehead of the band. xx

Vocals on Hell's Ditch
The article says, "Their next album, Hell's Ditch, produced by The Clash's Joe Strummer, featured Stacy and Finer handling more of the vocal duties." My recollection (and I listened to it yesterday, before going to see them live last night) is that Shane sings all of the songs on Hell's Ditch. I wonder whether the original author was thinking of Peace and Love, on which several of the others take lead. Devilgate 12:11, 22 December 2005 (UTC)


 * He doesn't sing all the songs (Spider and Terry each sing at least one), but that's no different from any other albums, in which Terry at least always did a few numbers (and even Cait before him). So that should be changed. I'll take a look at it and rewrite what's needed. -R. fiend 19:49, 22 December 2005 (UTC)

length of article
i am just questioning the length of this article and the very limited details of some sections particually success and breakup. a band described as very popular should warrent a more detailed article. thnxx

This article is littered with grammatical mistakes, especially unnecessary capital letters.

Billy's Bones lyrics re: "Arsenal red from Tottenham blue"
I'm lacking the support that I need to make an argument for the Arsenal/Tottenham reference in the Arsenal F.C. article (also see: Talk:Arsenal F.C. for further details). My point is this: yes, The Pogues may not be as well known as say Metallica or The Beatles, but to those of us who follow the band, which I'd imagine -- the Fab Four fanbase notwithstanding -- is still quite a substantial number, song lyrics are notable regardless of chart success. On the Arsenal F.C. article, there is a subheading titled Arsenal in popular culture. I feel, as a fan both of the Arsenal and The Pogues, my contribution to what is already listed is just as reasonable a mention as anything else listed (save, of course, the Monty Python and Nick Hornby references). I need someone who is a fan of both the band and the football club to support me with a consenting opinion on the Talk:Arsenal F.C. page. Thanks.

Anglo Irish?
Is it right to call the pogues Anglo Irish? I've always understood that term to mean the descendants of English people who settled in Ireland, mostly Irish Anglicans like Wellesley, Swift, Wilde, Stoker and Tone. The pogues are mostly of Irish roots, and while most of the band were born in England, they come from Irish stock, and should be called Irish-English. Cf the comparisons of Scots-Irish and Irish-Scots for a similar analogy. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 81.101.113.32 (talk • contribs)
 * The anonymous user is correct, and the designation of the band as Anglo-Irish is incorrect. All of the members of the band are Irish, not a single one is English.  Just because the band formed in London does not make them English.  I am changing the article accordingly. ---Charles 03:09, 28 September 2006 (UTC)
 * Most of the band were born in England. I do not understand the problem with calling them London Irish, which here in London is a perfectly acceptable term for those of Irish descent from London.  There are plenty of "Irish-Americans" with grandparents and parents from Irish stock.  The former mayor of Boston, Ray Flynn, is American or Irish American, but not Irish.  Shane McGowan was born in Tunbridge Wells, Kent; Spider Stacy was born in Eastbourne, Sussex; Cait O'Riordan was born in Nigeria and is half-Scottish. - —Preceding unsigned comment added by 80.189.186.124 (talk • contribs)
 * It's true that most of the band are English rather than Irish but also true that Anglo-Irish has connotations beyond referring to a mixture of English and Irish (see the article.) I'll try changing it to English-Irish. --Cherry blossom tree 17:15, 20 October 2006 (UTC)
 * I still find all of the problematic, though that may have more to do with my own prejudices than anything factual. Most of this terminology is loaded with meanings with roots in the shared experiences and conflicts of the English and Irish.  To my mind, the Pogues are an Irish band, and the members Irishmen, regardless of where the band was formed, or where the members were born.  Any other terminology is, to me, offensive.  But then, I am an unrepentant Fenian.  And, judging by their lyrics, I think the band has staked out their territory fairly clearly. ---Charles 17:54, 23 October 2006 (UTC)
 * I'm not really sure how people born in England could be called Irishmen. I think it would be fair to say that the band primarily fits into an Irish tradition (although with other influences.) What about rewriting the whole thing to say "...a band who drew on Irish culture, though many of its members were English"? I'm not happy with that wording of it, but something expressing those sentiments. --Cherry blossom tree 22:22, 23 October 2006 (UTC)
 * What's wrong with the original London Irish? They're simply not English, not in attitude, style, or lyrical content. And Shane was raised in Tipperary (see A Drink With Shane MacGowan, act one), mind you. Snoutwood (talk) 23:04, 23 October 2006 (UTC)
 * If there is a reference proving the notability of the term "London Irish" (which is not a term I've heard before), then I have no problem with its use. The fact is, a great many people have been born in England but who are of Irish parentage---their families having moved to England for work---and who are properly called Irish.  However, we needn't get really wordy in our definitions, e.g., "born in England of Irish parentage" or words to that effect.  As I say, if the term is notable and has provenance, "London Irish" would be fine. ---Charles 17:34, 24 October 2006 (UTC)
 * Although I've heard the term quite a few times here in the States, in an attempt to demonstrate that it is a real term to qualify an Irishman living in London or a London-born person of Irish heritage I point you to a quick Google search for "London Irish" -rugby, bringing up 123,000 hits. It's quick, yes, but then the rugby club is named for Irishmen in London anyhow? So, I don't see that as being evidence that it's not a valid term, rather, it strikes me as being supporting. Snoutwood (talk) 02:39, 25 October 2006 (UTC)
 * (indent)The problem I see with London Irish is that I'm not aware that any of them (certainly none of the "key" members) are from London. Also, London Irish to me means the rugby team. I think the problem is that we're trying to define the cultural identity of the band and the nationality of its members in one term. I agree that the band is not English, but many of its members were and I'm not sure that any "an x band" statement can really reflect this accurately. --Cherry blossom tree 21:14, 24 October 2006 (UTC)
 * The members may not be London Irish, but the band is, having been founded in King's Cross. Snoutwood (talk) 02:26, 25 October 2006 (UTC)
 * I realise the band were formed in London, but when I hear "a Welsh band" I think of a band whose members are Welsh. Usually the two are the same, obviously, but it's slightly more complex here. --Cherry blossom tree 22:40, 25 October 2006 (UTC)
 * My Bloody Valentine are referred to on Wikipedia as an "Irish/British" band, I think that would be applicable to The Pogues too. "English band, based on Irish traditions" sounds much too pedantic.212.64.98.189 00:54, 4 February 2007 (UTC)
 * I was under the impression that Jem Finer was actually an English Jew. London-Irish was also a title given to a regiment in the British army. I don't have a problem with English-Irish or London-Irish. I think part of the image and thesuccess of the Pogues was that they were making a form of Irish music based in being ex-pats or diasporic Irish. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 83.13.39.98 (talk) 20:16, 30 December 2007 (UTC)
 * Unfortunately, this has been argued over at great length, as you can see above, and some sort of compromise had to be made. London-Irish is the best we could come up with... ---  RepublicanJacobite  The'FortyFive'  17:04, 31 December 2007 (UTC)


 * To stick to the facts ("most of the band have Irish roots" / "The P's are an Irish band and the members Irishmen" / etc). None of the 6 members who formed Pogue Mahone were born and raised in Ireland. ALL are from England (or Nigeria!). In fact James, Darryl, Jem & Andrew are English born of English parents. Shane had Irish parents. Cait had one Irish parent, was born in Africa and raised in England. None of them grew up in Ireland (except for Shane spending a few years there as a toddler.) He was raised and schooled in England - partly at a English public school. The band had been touring for several years before they even visited Ireland and when they did the reaction was not good, so they ceased touring there. Many times in many interviews going back to the 1980s The Pogues have complained about being stereotyped as an Irish band, and notably by the two born-and-bred Irish men who eventuly joined the band some years after they started (one of whom now choses to live in England). It's not how they see themselves. Irish music is one major influence among many musical influences in this London collective. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 194.66.226.95 (talk) 14:05, 24 April 2008 (UTC)

Success & breakup
... "recently voted" ? a date, even if just a year, would be better.

English? Irish? Both?
I've counted six times that I've had to revert changes made by various IP users who had previously removed reference to Ireland and to the Pogues' Irishness.

They are certainly English. Theye were formed in England and heavily influenced by the London punk scene. No one can or should deny that.

Perhaps I should make the case here as to why they were (and are) very much an Irish band as well:


 * The name "The Pogues" - from the Irish language
 * The repeated Irish Republican sentiment expressed in the lyrics
 * See Streets of Sorrow/Birmingham Six, Young Ned of the Hill, Six to Go etc.
 * The number of Irish bandmembers, especially Shane MacGowan
 * Yes, Shane was born in England, but he was reared in Ireland and (most importantly) identifies himself as Irish
 * Phil Chevron
 * Terry Woods
 * Cait O'Riordan
 * The instruments used (ie. tin whistle, banjo, cittern, mandolin, accordion)

Clearly, the Irish influence is critical to understanding and appreciating the Pogues. Please stop removing reference to it.Windyjarhead 16:44, 1 February 2007 (UTC)


 * Irishmen (or at least people who identify themselves as Irish) singing Irish songs (MacGowan only spent six years of his childhood in Ireland, but he identifies himself as Irish so Irish he is). The fact they formed in England doesn't make the band English - a band is defined by the members of it, not where they met. If there was a category for Bands from London, then they would warrant inclusion in that as that is where they were founded and based for many years. Possibly a semantic argument, but I feel it is significant. Average Earthman 17:19, 1 February 2007 (UTC)


 * Note no post above. The Pogues do not identify themselves as an Irish band, and most of the band identify themselves as English, a point repeatedly made in their official biography. Second, the Pogues are very much defined by the place they met: London. To understand The Pogues you have to understand the cultural melting pot that London was in the late 70s and 80s. Arguably The Pogues could have come from New York but they could never have come from Ireland, another point they repeatedly make.  —Preceding unsigned comment added by 194.66.226.95 (talk) 17:13, 24 April 2008 (UTC)


 * Shane was actually reared primarily in England (he was in Ireland from 3 months to about 5 years old) and, to date, has lived most of his life in England. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 194.66.226.95 (talk) 14:13, 24 April 2008 (UTC)


 * well i think that they should be irish-english, because i think they do see themselves as irish. a lot of their songs are about irish nationalism or history, or about the experiences of the irish diaspora and people of irish descent around the world. and as they are of irish descent they can see themselves as irish, you only have to go to one of their gigs to see which nationality they identify with Jimjom (talk) 22:29, 14 July 2008 (UTC)


 * re your comment: i think they do see themselves as irish. Pogues co-founder Jem Finer comments: "We never were an Irish band: that's what journalists have always said about us and it's total misrepresentation from the word go." —Preceding unsigned comment added by 81.131.31.241 (talk) 15:24, 16 July 2008 (UTC)

Infobox Flags issue
Am I seriously the only one who thinks it ridiculous to call the Pogues an English band and leave it at that? That's like saying that Tony Blair is a Scottish politician, it's true, but incomplete. Describing the Pogues as being from "King's Cross, London" with no mention of their overwhelming Irish influence is equally incomplete. Windyjarhead 15:30, 21 February 2007 (UTC)

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IBA and BBC censorship of Pogues lyrics
Is it worth mentioning somewhere the censorship of the groups lyrics by IBA (Birmingham Six/ Streets of Sorrow) and the more recent debacle of the BBC attempting to censor the word 'faggot' from 'Fairytale of New York'(83.13.39.98 (talk) 20:24, 30 December 2007 (UTC))

Reception in Ireland
I feel something could be added about the initial reception of the band in Ireland. There is the case of the famous 'Late, Late Show' episode where a number of very influential traditional Irish musicians (Noel Hill, who was later 'immortalised' in the Pogues tune 'Planxty Noel Hill') attacked The Pogues for, in their view, crimes against traditional music. This was in contrast to the positive reception from such figures as The Dubliners and Christy Moore and Paddy Moloney of The Chieftains.(83.13.39.98 (talk) 19:16, 1 January 2008 (UTC))
 * If you can find a good source, or sources, for this, that would be a great addition to the article. --- RepublicanJacobite  The'FortyFive'  20:04, 1 January 2008 (UTC)
 * The Ann Scanlon book The Lost Decade about the Pogues has some mention of it. I believe there is also an interview with Phil Chevron on the "Friends of Shane" website where he speaks about it. (83.9.83.114 (talk) 11:36, 2 January 2008 (UTC))
 * I am not familiar with the book you mention, but if it has the information, go ahead and add it. If you have any trouble with the citation, let me know. ---  RepublicanJacobite  The'FortyFive'  19:30, 2 January 2008 (UTC)
 * Here's a link. I don't know the page references. http://hometown.aol.com/skovar1/myhomepage/decade/decade.html (Trevek (talk) 22:24, 25 February 2008 (UTC))
 * Worth mentioning that the relative unpopularity of this UK band in Ireland extended beyond high profile trad musicians in the 1980s. They toured Ireland briefly between '85 and '87 but haven't toured across the country since (reunion included) because "they always lost money" ie there was a lack of interest. The legacy of this is that one-off Xmas gigs in Dublin or Irish festival appearances have become the norm, while lengthy tours circulate the UK and USA. In 2007 they played Belfast in addition to Dublin and it seems clear their popularity in Ireland has now grown considerably since the 1980s. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 194.66.226.95 (talk) 13:38, 29 April 2008 (UTC)
 * Interesting. I saw them on tour in '88 or '89 ("Yeah, Yeah, Yeah" was out at the time) in Galway. The shows were a disaster because of MacGowan's drinking (he forgot the chorus to "Yeah, Yeah, Yeah" at one gig). Still, I find it surprising (I'm not doubting you)they were not more successful considering their appearances on RTE, shows like Gaye Byrne's Late, Late Show and the collaborations with The Dubliners, as well as the Self-Aid concerts (79.190.69.142 (talk) 04:42, 31 December 2008 (UTC))

Vandalism and disruptive edits
This article seems to be the target of vandalism and disruptive edits by unregistered users. If this continues the situation should be brought to the attention of an administrator, who can protect the article from newly registered or unregistered users. - Michael J Swassing (talk) 17:03, 14 March 2008 (UTC)

Phil the only Irish member?
Terry Woods is Irish too, born and raised there, I'm pretty sure. Shouldn't that be added? -R. fiend (talk) 22:13, 17 August 2008 (UTC)
 * I believe you are correct. If I am remembering right, he was born in Ireland.
 * I reverted the recent change in wording. The previous wording was achieved through discussion, and should not be changed without further discussion.  Clearly, the majority of members were born in England, but many are of Irish origin.  The current wording reflects this, in my opinion, and should be left. ---  RepublicanJacobite  The'FortyFive'  16:13, 18 August 2008 (UTC)