Talk:The Principal and the Pauper/Archive 1

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Rough Commentary stuff
Josh Weinstein defends it as "trying something different" (Weinstein)

The most controversial one of the Oakley/Weinstein era (Oakley) because of how they changed Skinner's character (Moore)

He is "very very proud of the job I did on this episode. This is the best episode of television I feel I ever wrote" (Keeler)

It is one of Steven Dean Moore's favourite episodes that he directed. Okaley says it's "a good episode. It's solid" (Oakley)

It is not based at all on Martin Guerre. It is based on the Tichborne case, even though many fans had mistakenly assumed it was based on Guerre. (Keeler)

One of the possible titles of the episode was "Skinnersby" (Moore)

Keeler: "This episode is about a community of people who like things just the way they are. Skinner's not really close to these people - he's a minor character - but they get upset when someone comes in and says 'this is not really the way things are' and they run the messenger out of town on the rail. And when the episode aired, lo and behold, a community of people who like things just the way they are got mad. It never seems to have occured to anyone that this episode is about the people who hate it."

In the original draft there were two sentences that Keeler felt illustrated this point even better and they were cut for time, but he feels that they would have made all the difference. (Keeler)

Keeler would often be given the hardest episodes to write and they thought the episode was just another of his good ideas. At the time of production, there was little opposition, although Harry Shearer was a little peeved (Oakley)

The point of the ending was that everyone was supposed to mentally reset that this was Skinner again, but nobody did and that weas part of the problem (Oakley)

Skinner was a popular character, and a favourite of Oakley & Weinstein which is why they did the episode. (Weinstein)

Martin Sheen was brought in because Oakley & Weinstein love Apocalypse Now and feel that one of the best parts is the narration. They felt his voice is amazing and thought he would be a good fit for a Vietnam vet. (Weinstein)

The new Skinner was made to be a nice guy, but just not quite Skinner. (Keeler)

Oakley & Weinstein liked to do episodes that pushed the boundaries and this episode was in the same vein, although it didn't present itself as being an envelope pusher. (Oakley)

The name Armin Tamzarian came from Keeler. He got in a car accident and the name of the adjuster was named Armin Tamzarian. (Keeler) Later, he became a lawyer in the firm that represented the series. (Oakley) Normally when a show is done, to use a name, a database is searched and there either have to be more than 5 or none. (Oakley) After the episode aired, Keeler received a "curtly phrased" letter from Tamzarian. (Keeler) The producers believe that he allowed the producers to use his name because he was a lawyer. (Weinstein)

-- Scorpion0422 23:16, 14 December 2007 (UTC)

Garbled sentence (sentences?)
This line confuses me: Richards disagrees with Turner's assessment that the show plateaued after "The Principal and the Pauper"; recommending the twelfth season episode "Homer vs. Dignity" and declaring that The Simpsons never jumped the shark. Does Richards assert that the show plateaued after "Homer vs. Dignity" or the opposite, that "HvD" shows that the show never jumped the shark? If the show DID plateau after "HvD", isn't that something at least akin to jumping the shark? Croctotheface (talk) 04:46, 28 January 2008 (UTC)
 * I see where you're going with this, and I actually wrote very little of the article, so you can stop. The statement is actually unnecessary since this is about a specific episode and not about whether or not the show has jumped the shark. -- Scorpion0422 04:54, 28 January 2008 (UTC)


 * I have no idea where I'm "going with this", but I'm glad that at least one of us knows, I guess. I'm fine with your solution of removing the line and agree with your assessment that it's irrelevant to the article.  Croctotheface (talk) 05:02, 28 January 2008 (UTC)

GA review
My only real issues are with the lead. It doesn't fully summarise the article, and the last sentence of the plot description is too long. The mention of where the episode got its title should be put in the production section, as it discusses other potential titles. Alientraveller (talk) 09:11, 4 February 2008 (UTC)
 * Response to GA review
 * 1) The only section that was not adequately summarized in the WP:LEAD was the Reception section, so I added a summary of that section. Cirt (talk) 13:36, 4 February 2008 (UTC)
 * 2) Broke up the last sentence of the Plot section into 2 smaller more succinct sentences. Cirt (talk) 13:36, 4 February 2008 (UTC)
 * 3) Added the mention of where the episode got its title to the Production section. Cirt (talk) 13:36, 4 February 2008 (UTC)

Passed. Alientraveller (talk) 15:52, 4 February 2008 (UTC)
 * Thanks! Cirt (talk) 15:52, 4 February 2008 (UTC)

Promotion
I think this article is just about ready for FAC. What does everyone else think? Teh Rote (talk) 14:57, 28 April 2008 (UTC)
 * I would suggest to check first with, has put some significant work into the article. Cirt (talk) 14:58, 28 April 2008 (UTC)
 * Yeah, I'll nominate it now. -- Scorpion0422 15:12, 28 April 2008 (UTC)

Plot
I think these particular changes to the plot section only hurt it:. Since I had copy-edited the plot section, I'm not going to take it upon myself to revert this edit. But if anyone agrees with me here, please do discuss this.  Equazcion •✗/C • 18:25, 29 Apr 2008 (UTC)
 * Could you elaborate? I have a reason for every one of those changes. I was mostly trying to eliminate wordiness ("tells" instead of "goes on to tell"; "allowed" instead of "chose to allow", etc.) Zagalejo^^^ 18:27, 29 April 2008 (UTC)
 * I have made a few adjustments, but I think the rest of my edits should stay. Zagalejo^^^ 18:41, 29 April 2008 (UTC)
 * New diff: . I'm not going to go through each individual change and try to explain to you why I think they were better the other way. That would take too long. I'm just calling attention to this in case others agree with me. If not then it can stay the way it is.  Equazcion •✗/C • 18:58, 29 Apr 2008 (UTC)
 * Could you at least comment on a couple of changes? I need something to work with here. Zagalejo^^^ 19:38, 29 April 2008 (UTC)

To-do
Here are some things we need to discuss:
 * 1) The big thing to tackle is the article's organization. There's a lot of overlap within the "Production", "Controversy", and "Reception" sections. We really need to define the scope of each of those sections.
 * 2) Once we have the basic organization figured out, we need to work on the prose, and the organization within sections. Some sections are rougher than others. The first paragraph of "Production", for example, doesn't flow very well at all. We jump from one topic (the claims adjuster) to another (Martin Sheen), and another (Sommersby), and then another (Mark Twain). We really need to work on transitions and paragraph development. (Those are problems in many Simpsons articles, not just this one.)
 * 3) We might need to be more selective about the quotes from the TV writers. Chris Turner's commentary is valuable, but I don't see how the Cantor quote adds much. Does he say anything more insightful?
 * 4) Frankly, I think the most interesting commentary comes from the alt.tv.simpsons archives. There are many reliable sources that explicitly mention how the "people on the Internet" complained about the episode. Would it be possible to throw in a couple of representative newsgroup quotes? I might ask about that at the Village Pump.
 * 5) Just what are we to make of Keeler's comment that he couldn't remember the "two lines that would have made all the difference?" That just seems... weird. Zagalejo^^^ 01:56, 15 May 2008 (UTC)
 * I'll work on these now and over the course of the next day or two. Qst (talk) 20:11, 15 May 2008 (UTC)
 * What I'd really want is a group discussion about some of these things. Zagalejo^^^ 20:32, 15 May 2008 (UTC)

I completely forgot about this page (d'oh!). I'm going away for a few weeks on June 28, but once I get back I want to restart work on this page so we can save the season 9 FT. I've done some reworking of the article. As for using SNPP quotes, I'm not sure if that's a door we really want opened, because then others may start adding their opinions from NoHomers, other forums, etc. I've also changed the bit about the two lines, is it better? -- Scorpion0422 17:18, 23 June 2008 (UTC)
 * Regarding Keeler's lines, I just found it odd that he couldn't remember any of what he had written, and hadn't tried to look it up before the commentary taping. Makes me wonder if he's just pulling our legs. Zagalejo^^^ 18:17, 23 June 2008 (UTC)

Copy editing notes
Scorpion0422 asked me to give this article a copy-edit before he left for holidays, and I've been doing some sporadic editing. Some points are unclear to me, and I'd appreciate some assistance in helping me figure out what is intended here, so that the article is easily understood by those who aren't avid Simpsons fans.


 * "In response, the townspeople banish the real Skinner from town by tying him to a chair on a freight train car."
 * Is the chair in the freight car? Tied to the front of it? Is it an empty car or one filled with freight?
 * The chair was secured to a flat car, and he was riding on top of the car. See . Zagalejo^^^ 05:46, 14 July 2008 (UTC)


 * "Martin Sheen was selected to voice the real Seymour Skinner because the producers loved his performance in Apocalypse Now and felt his voice would be an appropriate fit for a Vietnam veteran."
 * the "loved his performance", if those are the actual words from the reference source, should probably be in quotations, with a reference immediately following; the language is out of the ordinary for a featured article and is likely to be questioned. If it is not a direct quote, then alternate wording needs to be considered.
 * It's not a direct quote. I'll think about an alternate wording. Zagalejo^^^ 05:50, 15 July 2008 (UTC)


 * Consider putting the quote that starts off the "Concept" section into a box to the side, similar to how this was done for To Kill a Mockingbird—it will allow the paragraph to flow more smoothly, and gives some visual interest in an article that, by necessity, cannot have a lot of images.
 * ""The Principal and the Pauper" was proposed in that vein, although they feel part of the problem is that it did not initially present itself as being such an episode."
 * What "problem" are we discussing here? And when saying "it did not initially present itself", does this mean that the opening sequences of the episode don't present as pushing the boundaries, or that when it was initially conceived, it did not seem to be groundbreaking?
 * The "problem" is the fact that so many Simpsons fans were upset with the episode. I'm not really sure what "initially" is supposed to mean, though. Unlike, say, "The Simpsons Spin-Off Showcase", it's never clear to viewers that this is an "experimental" episode. Zagalejo^^^ 05:46, 14 July 2008 (UTC)

I'll add further comments as I progress through the editing. Thanks to whomever is watching this page and (hopefully) has access to the resource materials. Risker (talk) 04:06, 14 July 2008 (UTC)

Additional copy editing notes
I've finished going through the article at this point; there may be some tweaking required as references are checked to verify I haven't changed any information with the restructuring. I think the points identified above have been addressed. I understand that there have been some changes in practice with respect to dates from the FA perspective; I'll verify what it is and then make any changes necessary. It's an interesting article, and I will follow it through the FA process and assist where necessary in copy editing. Thanks to all for your assistance. Risker (talk) 03:59, 28 July 2008 (UTC)

Comments
On the way to FAC? Some comments to hopefully help you out. Hope this helps! Let me know when you're at FAC. —Giggy 07:38, 28 July 2008 (UTC)
 * "a friend from the army," - I think this needs clarifying (it's (to me) a bit confusing currently and the prose could just do with a bit of smoothing)
 * How is that confusing?
 * "The episode was the last written by Ken Keeler" - last written???
 * "As punishment, Armin had to join the Army" - punishment for stealing or hitting the judge? I can't remember if it says which in the episode.
 * Yes, it was punishment for hitting the judge.
 * "Marge Simpson heads to Capital City with Edna Krabappel, Agnes and the Simpson family." - why mention Marge specifically when you say the whole family goes anyway?
 * In the episode, it was Marge who initiated the trip, so it makes sense to mention her specifically.
 * "was partly due to the fact that it was not immediately apparent to viewers that this was such an episode." --> "was partly because it was not immediately..."?
 * "In a 2001 interview with the Dallas Observer..." - you cite the East Bay Express .... Clarify
 * The interview was with the Observer, but the original article has since been deleted, so we had to use an article from a source that also published the article.
 * Feel free to revert this.
 * "following King of the Hill" - which episode?
 * I don't think it was a new one.
 * Was it this one? I don't remember if King of the Hill was airing on the same day as The Simpsons that season, but that's the only new episode that aired during that Nielsen timeframe. Zagalejo^^^ 05:34, 30 July 2008 (UTC)
 * "Giles Richards, writing in The Observer, notes this "Golden Age" referred to by Turner and disagrees with Turner's assessment that the show plateaued after "The Principal and the Pauper" - try not to name Turner twice (and I think you should change "and" to "but")
 * It does. Thanks for taking a look. -- Scorpion0422 16:54, 29 July 2008 (UTC)

Glen Richards comment
From "Reception": Giles Richards, writing in The Observer, notes this "Golden Age" referred to by Turner but disagrees with the assessment that the show plateaued after "The Principal and the Pauper".
 * So.. what else does Richards say? I don't think this really belongs in the article unless we can elaborate on what he said. Zagalejo^^^ 05:32, 30 July 2008 (UTC)

Martin Guerre
The plot of the episode is similar to Martin Guerre story. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 148.87.19.210 (talk) 22:46, 1 November 2011 (UTC)
 * Martin Guerre is briefly mentioned in the article already, although Ken Keeler said that he was more directly influenced by the Tichbourne case. Zagal e jo^^^ 23:31, 1 November 2011 (UTC)
 * Keeler says in the commentary to this episode that the Martin Guerre story wasn't an influence at all, that it was based soley on the Tichbourne case. 69.158.138.200 (talk) 19:27, 27 November 2011 (UTC)

Non-canon
Al Jean confirmed the episode is non-canon following the premiere of "Walking Big & Tall". --Frederick Malcolm (talk) 05:00, 15 March 2015 (UTC)