Talk:The Rebbe

Lubavitchter Rebbe as "The Rebbe" vs all Rebbes individually as "The Rebbe"
Please do not hijack the term "The Rebbe" for only one Chasidishe Rebbe. Each group regards their own Rebbe as "The Rebbe" and more. In any case, that the 7th and last Lubavitcher Rebbe, Rabbi Menachem Mendel Schneerson was well-known as "The Rebbe" is cited in the article the term is redirected to: Rebbe, (see last sentence that states explicitly):

"As an example, Rabbi Menachem Mendel Schneerson, the leader of the Chabad Lubavitch Hasidim, was and even after his passing is still referred to as "The Rebbe" by Lubavitcher Hasidim and even by many non-Lubavitchers."

Thank you, IZAK (talk) 09:44, 3 January 2010 (UTC)


 * Although your argument is correct, my argument in the edit summary of this edit is even more correct. Debresser (talk) 11:23, 3 January 2010 (UTC)
 * What "argument"? You do a "redirect" and that's not "an argument". I despise edit warring and you are just showing how you wish to WP:OWN even this simple topic for Chabad. You even agree that my argument is correct, but you claim that you can just act because you know better. That is not sufficient. IZAK (talk) 05:51, 4 January 2010 (UTC)
 * The argument was "the term "the rebbe" overwhelmingly refers to this one, see google etc." I gave you the diff to look it up. And why would you accuse me of WP:OWN when you are the one starting this as one of the items in your campaign against perceived Chabad POV pushing. You should have taken the trouble of looking at that edit summary and doing a simple Google search. You yourself are in violation of WP:DISRUPT. Debresser (talk) 08:46, 4 January 2010 (UTC)
 * Google does not create Rebbes or Hasidism nor is it the last word in how ALL Hasidim refer to their leader/s. This should not be about PR for one group nor about how many times Google picks references only to Chabad's Rebbe -- after all Chabad has ten thousand+ web sites while other groups larger than Chabad have none -- so there is no sense in what you say here. This redirect should be an accurate description of how all Hasidim in ALL Hasidic groups refer to their leader/s not just a show-off redirect link to one group. Since in any case Chabad is not the largest Hasidic group, and others such as Satmar iun America and Ger in Israel are much bigger than Chabad, the way they ALSO refer to their leader as "The Rebbe" is more significant than what an electronic search engine that knows nothing about Hasidism "says" -- so why waste time playing games and not switch to a more objective and productive WP:NPOV soon please! IZAK (talk) 09:31, 13 January 2010 (UTC)
 * I can not agree with your logic in using Wikipedia guidelines. The title of an article should be consistent with the most well-know usage in the English language. Therefore it does not matter so much what other Hassidim do, and it does matter that what Google says. By way of indication only, of course. Even the fact that Chabad has many sites contributes to the widespread use of "The Rebbe" for the Lubavitcher Rebbe. Debresser (talk) 15:00, 13 January 2010 (UTC)

The title of an article should deal with the reality of the subject, and the reality is that the term "The Rebbe" belongs to the domain of Hasidic Judaism and not to the English language as such nor to Chabad exclusively. It is the responsibilty of Wikipedia editors to describe and explain reality and not to rely on an artificial word count by Google. Thus "headache" should not be counted by how many companies sell headache pills and talk about headaches and hence having lots more hits to commercial sites as counted by Google's search engines and web-crawlers, but rather a Wikipedia article should describe and explain what a headache in is reality in the real world. It is outrageous that you can even state that "it does not matter so much what other Hassidim do" when the term "The Rebbe" is only about what ALL Chasidim do and is used by EVERY Hasidic group to refer to their own Rebbe as part of Hasidism and not as part of how many times Chabad websites use the term and thereby artificially inflate the numbers in favor of a Chabad connection. You are also vague and you seem to be saying two things at the same time, like what do you mean when you say "By way of indication only"? This is again a problem that shows that once Chabad sets its eyes on a topic or term, using your logic because thousands of Chabad sites talk about each of the 613 mitzvot that somehow "therefore" (illogically) every one of the 613 mitzvos should (illogically) "belong" to Chabad and only redirect to or carry Chabad-sanctioned interpretations of the 613 mitzvot based on the fact that Chabad has ten thousand related websites with the most Google hits so somehow (illogically) that gives them "ownership" of anything that moves on the Internet in Yiddishkeit, which creates a false reality because in the real world Chabad does not control terminology nor any feature of Judaism, not the term The Rebbe and not much of anything else in Judaism that is not directly inherently part of own unique movement. You do see the ad absurdum absurdity of your argument I hope. IZAK (talk) 06:34, 14 January 2010 (UTC)
 * Your "arguments" have gone off-topic. Debresser (talk) 08:18, 15 January 2010 (UTC)
 * I think this redirect to Rabbi Menachem Mendel Schneerson is totally out of place. Instead, the term "The Rebbe" should be redirected to Rebbe, as IZAK tried to do somewhere back in the edit war. All Hasidim call their Rebbe "the Rebbe". It is also true that English-speaking baalei teshuva often refer to their roshei yeshiva and teachers with "The Rebbe said..." (and "The Rebbetzin said...").
 * See the back cover flaps of new English-language books published by Breslov Research Institute, which state about Rebbe Nachman of Breslov: "To his followers, he is simply 'the Rebbe'."
 * A website about the Noam Elimelech says he is called "The Rebbe of the Rebbes".
 * (It is actually hard to find more websites about people calling their rebbe "the Rebbe", since Chabad sites predominate on the web.)
 * Now, if we have some unaffiliated, or even non-Jewish, English-speaking person searching Wikipedia for Rabbi Schneerson, I doubt that he'll type in "The Rebbe". More likely, it'll just be "Rebbe", or "Chabad Rebbe" (which yields a list with Rabbi Schneerson in third place) or "Lubavitcher Rebbe" (which redirects straight to Rabbi Schneerson). Even if our intrepid friend finds his way to Rebbe, he'll read some very complimentary words about Rabbi Schneerson which someone wrote at the end of this section, helping him to reach his goal. On the other hand, if he's searching for "The Rebbe" on Google, he will be immediately inundated with pictures and links to the "one and only" Rebbe, Rabbi Schneerson, which makes his work a lot easier. Let's keep Wikipedia more neutral and acknowledge that there are other "The Rebbe"'s out there. Yoninah (talk) 22:50, 16 January 2010 (UTC)
 * Your argument is true for someone who has never heard of the Rebbe, perhaps just read some article. But anybody who ever heard about him, would have been likely to hear the reference "The Rebbe".

There might be a good compromise. We could turn this into a disambiguation page, and include both Lubavitcher Rebbe, as well as Rebbe. Debresser (talk) 03:28, 20 January 2010 (UTC)
 * I appreciate your compromise, but I still disagree. I think you are approaching this whole idea from your point of view, that Rabbi Schneerson is "the" Rebbe, and anyone who ever heard of him will identify him that way. Of course I have heard of him, but I identify him as "the Lubavitcher Rebbe," not "The Rebbe." (I also have a problem with the redirect on Lubavitcher Rebbe," since I also consider Rabbi Yosef Yitzchok Schneersohn as "the Lubavitcher Rebbe".) I think you need to step back and look at Rabbi Schneerson as one of many, many Hasidic rebbes, and not necessarily the most famous in the scope of Jewish history. If someone would like to argue that he's the most famous in the 21st century, then I'm sure that anyone searching for information about him will start with Google, where there's a more than promotional array of articles and pictures about your Rebbe. I think we should take our minds off promotion and on to improving the whole project, including adding references to the Rebbe article. Thanks, Yoninah (talk) 09:29, 20 January 2010 (UTC)
 * P.S. I just glanced at Rebbe and am wondering why you're bringing up this whole idea of a redirect when the article already explains upfront how many kinds of Hasidim and even cheder boys call their Rav "the Rebbe"? Yoninah (talk) 09:32, 20 January 2010 (UTC)


 * These cheider boys would look for "Rebbe", not "The Rebbe". And those hasidim all know that "The Rebbe" in the big world outside their group, is most likely to be the Lubavitcher Rebbe. And that is even without taking into account all the other non-hasidic Jews and non-Jews who are even more likely to mean the Lubavitcher Rebbe as the Rebbe. Furthermore, the usage of all those hasidim would be specified in the disambiguation page by the link to Rebbe.
 * And please, I am from a secular family, of classical European upbring, have studied in a university before I went to a yeshiva and got my rabbinical ordination, etc. etc. No need to imply that my point of view is so biased. Try to accept that I disagree with you, just as I accept that you disagree with me, and try to persuade you with rational arguments only, and in respect of the person you are. Debresser (talk) 15:08, 20 January 2010 (UTC)
 * I'm sorry, I didn't mean to offend. At this point, we might as well agree to disagree, and wait for other editors to comment, alright? Yoninah (talk) 21:19, 20 January 2010 (UTC)
 * No offense taken. I just wanted to make clear that we should stay matter of fact. There has been too much drama already. :) And yes, your proposal to "agree to disagree" was in my mind as well. :) Debresser (talk) 21:29, 20 January 2010 (UTC)