Talk:The Red Moon (Johnson and Cole)

Hoola Woola?
Hoola Woola from the show? per here FloridaArmy (talk) 18:56, 4 February 2024 (UTC)


 * Doesn't look promising as a ref. I only included the musical numbers included in the Broadway production which were verified to high quality sources. It's possible certain numbers were swapped in and out during other parts of the tour. I'd be careful using sources without any context on the show such as library listings and song databases which are not always accurate. Make sure there is prose on the song by a scholar.4meter4 (talk) 06:37, 7 February 2024 (UTC)


 * Update. Looks like some sheet music for songs not in the Broadway run were published, including Hoola Woola. See This source; although I will point out that the plot synopsis in that book is completely wrong.4meter4 (talk) 06:48, 7 February 2024 (UTC)


 * LOC sheet music collection includes the song advertised as from the show. FloridaArmy (talk) 07:39, 7 February 2024 (UTC)

Pliny Come Out in the Moonlight? https://www.google.com/books/edition/A_Life_in_Ragtime/HuwRDAAAQBAJ?hl=en&gbpv=1&dq="chas.+a.+hunter"&pg=PA232&printsec=frontcover

Charles H. Hunter
Is this Charles A. Hunter (Charles Hunter (composer)? His song Possum and Taters was a hit. FloridaArmy (talk) 07:55, 7 February 2024 (UTC)

On the other hand I've seen Hunter referred to as stage manager so maybe unrelated. Also, Hunter is credited as lyricist, not the composer of the music. FloridaArmy (talk) 08:12, 7 February 2024 (UTC)


 * @ No this is not the same person. The composer was a white man and wouldn't have been part of this all-black creative team. The person we are looking for is an African-American writer, not a composer. Peterson page 298 has a short bio on this writer stating he was a playwright, lyricist, and performer (actor?). Apparently he co-authored the script/book to the musical play Panama (1906) with Marion Brooks. We currently don't have an article on this person so I removed any wiki link.4meter4 (talk) 15:25, 7 February 2024 (UTC)
 * An all black writing team could have incorporated an adaptation of a hit song written earlier? FloridaArmy (talk) 15:28, 7 February 2024 (UTC)
 * I don’t see the point in speculating. It’s clear that this composer is not the same person and the bio in Peterson clearly identifies him as someone else.4meter4 (talk) 16:01, 7 February 2024 (UTC)
 * Agreed. FloridaArmy (talk) 16:04, 7 February 2024 (UTC)

Stage work; Musical v.s. Operetta
Musicals and operettas are not the same thing. They have different aesthetics and performance conventions There are works which live in the place in-between these two genres, and this is one of them. The creative team who made "The Red Moon" labeled and marketed it as a "sensation in red and black" and did not use the word musical or operetta. Peterson was careful to document this and present the work as being labeled variously a musical and/or an operetta; meaning sources were not in agreement that it was both or definitely one or the other. The generic term stage work (which can mean a play, musical, opera, operetta, revue, or whatever) is therefore the best broad term to use to reflect the various sources, and more importantly to accurately reflect the intentions and ideas of the creators.4meter4 (talk) 15:41, 7 February 2024 (UTC)

@ please use standard wording for operas, operettas, and musicals across Wikipedia for the opening sentence. I know you are wanting to emphasize the musical comedy aspect, but that is done in the next part of the paragraph. I’ll point out though that the main character, Minnehaha, is a an operatic soprano role in the vein and style of an operetta heroine. There’s a reason why this work is tied to The Merry Widow.4meter4 (talk) 16:20, 7 February 2024 (UTC)
 * In fairness, I asked what a stage work is and what source that description is based on. If you responded I didn't see it. The show is a musical comedy. I have no idea what is meant by a "stage work" although it can be gleaned a bit from reading the rest of the entry. I prefer clear and accurate descriptions. But if you insist on calling this show a "stage work" in the opening sentence so be it. Thanks for working on it. I think it's an interesting subject. Note of the other songs that appeared in the show should be added. There is sheet music for several. FloridaArmy (talk) 16:48, 7 February 2024 (UTC)
 * The show is referred to as a "musical production" in 1909 here on the cover of sheet music for a song from it. FloridaArmy (talk) 16:50, 7 February 2024 (UTC)

Its also referred to as a musical comedy here in 1909. FloridaArmy (talk) 16:54, 7 February 2024 (UTC)


 * FloridaArmy, please read the body of the article. Jasen & Jones emphasizes the works operetta connections; drawing a clear thorough line from Lehar’s The Merry Widdow. Peterson emphasizes that the creators did not label the work either an operetta or a musical and that sources have emphasized The Red Moon’s connections to both genres. It’s clear that Minnihaha is drawn from an operetta aesthetic. She is the main character. It’s equally clear that the secondary roles of Plunk and Slim are musical comedy roles in their stylizing. It therefore is a work that lives in between genres. I prefer to place the creators description of their own work (“a sensation in red and black”) at the center which is standard practice in articles on stage works. Labels like musical and operetta are secondary to the language used by The Red Moon’s authors. I will put a note in at WikiProject Opera and WikiProject Musicals to get input from others.4meter4 (talk) 17:28, 7 February 2024 (UTC)


 * Update. I have now documented the wide discrepancy on this issue in published literature in the section The Red Moon (Johnson and Cole). Per WP:NPOV, I think the generic term "stage work" is the best choice for the lead sentence. I have placed notices for input at this discussion at Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Opera and Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Musical Theatre per the usual WP:CONSENSUS process. All opinions and suggestions are welcome. Best.4meter4 (talk) 00:23, 8 February 2024 (UTC)
 * I mean, in the end, the distinctions between the genres are vague and fluid. There's more difference between a Baroque opera and a Romantic opera than between, say, The Desert Song and The Most Happy Fella, but a lot of it is, as you say, performance conventions, which, as the performance tradition for this work doesn't exist so much anymore, could really go whichever way a production wants to take it. Adam Cuerden (talk)Has about 8.8% of all FPs. 01:22, 8 February 2024 (UTC)
 * @, undoubtedly that's true for a broader take on genre fluidity. In this case though, the scholars who are arguing its an operetta are doing so purely based on analysis of the The Red Moon's score which is more reminiscent of a Dekoven operetta, and on the use of an art song aesthetic and composition structure (ie harmonic language) in the majority of the song writing along the lines of Amy Beach and George W. Chadwick as opposed to the standard musical theatre aesthetic of that period based in American popular music styles. There's a pretty compelling argument made in the published literature that it is an operetta based on the overall musical analysis across the work as a whole. Further, the main role of the show was created for opera singer Abbie Mitchell, and the producer of the show, A. L. Wilbur, spent his entire career producing light operas.
 * The sources that call it a musical don't even bother with any sort of score or song analysis, and it's clear they really haven't engaged with the music in any serious way. That said, the songs performed by J. Rosamund Johnson and Bob Cole's characters were clearly more musical theatre/American popular song based. So... in my view it's a hybrid work that lives somewhere in-between both genres. But really my opinion doesn't matter. All I have done is present the diversity of opinions in RS. I don't think we should be 'labeling the work' definitively as an operetta or a musical because the RS isn't in agreement. Let the readers decide what to call it after being presented with the diversity of opinions in the published literature.4meter4 (talk) 03:13, 8 February 2024 (UTC)
 * That's kind of what I meant. We can't readily make a judgement here, because it'd be us making the judgement, and it's not like there's a strict, objective definition we could use. It's like how - to use a different divide and the inverse - Gilbert and Sullivan are inevitably referred to as comic operas instead of the maybe-more-accurate operettas, because that's the terminology they used and RSes followed, and the operetta-comic opera divide is similarly fluid. In this case, we don't have one reliable source that can trump all others, so have to talk about the diversity of opinion. Adam Cuerden (talk)Has about 8.8% of all FPs. 05:01, 8 February 2024 (UTC)
 * @ Great. So do you support the text as it currently is in the article? The argument here specifically is the first sentence of the lead and the use of the term "stage work". That is what FloridaArmy is objecting to. Another proposal by FloridaArmy was "theatrical show", but that to me sounds weird and is atypical of normal English writing on theatre. "Stage work" is pretty common language in academic writing to refer to a broad spectrum of theatre works, such as in the title of the book [The Stage Works of Philip Glass. It is a common universal catch all for theatre works (plays, operas, ballets, operettas, musicals, etc.). [[Oxford English Dictionary]] even has an entry for the term which according to it dates back to 1649 when it was first coined by John Milton. 4meter4 (talk) 17:40, 9 February 2024 (UTC)
 * If I might make a suggestion with a contemporary source:
 * "musical production" is actually used to describe it at the time, and, while it does contain "musical" in it, is neutral enough of a descriptor. Adam Cuerden (talk)Has about 8.8% of all FPs. 21:47, 9 February 2024 (UTC)
 * That's from the sheet music publisher and not the score or a publication directly tied to the actual stage work (such as a poster, program bill, advertisement for a performance, etc.); so I'm not really a fan of that. It has a separate copyright too from the staged production. The sheet music publisher also published a bunch of material that never actually made it into the show or its score under The Red Moon moniker (although it may have been written for it).4meter4 (talk) 18:24, 10 February 2024 (UTC)

In thinking about this further, it might just be best to say "The Red Moon is a musical or operetta in three acts" for the opening sentence. That would reflect the text in Peterson which is the cited source.4meter4 (talk) 02:12, 11 February 2024 (UTC)


 * That's a little awkward. "The Red Moon is a three-act work by [...] There is dispute over whether it's best described as a musical or operetta" is longer, but probably more comprehensible. One does not expect to see "or" in a brief description like that. Adam Cuerden (talk)Has about 8.8% of all FPs. 01:12, 13 February 2024 (UTC)
 * ACtually... the DYK provides a sensible option. "The Red Moon is a Broadway show" Adam Cuerden (talk)Has about 8.8% of all FPs. 01:13, 13 February 2024 (UTC)

Consistencies
Hi FloridaArmy and 4meter4, thanks for this article.

I came across a few different spellings/formattings you might decide on. JennyOz (talk) 13:03, 18 March 2024 (UTC)
 * theater v theatre
 * Redfeather v Red Feather
 * Native-Americans v Native Americans
 * African American v African-American
 * Black v black
 * bi-racial v biracial

@ Thanks for this. I have copyedited accordingly. I removed the hyphens from Native American and African Americans per this style guideline (https://diversity.uiowa.edu/resources/dei-style-guide/style-guide-race-and-ethnicity#:~:text=African%20American%20is%20not%20hyphenated.,and%20should%20not%20be%20used.) I capitalized the B in Black per (https://news.ucdenver.edu/is-the-b-in-black-capitalized-yes/). I didn't capitalize it in a "sensation in red and black" because the authors did not do so and it is a direct quote. I corrected the name according to Dietz as "Red Feather", although some of the sources spelled it "Redfeather". Without a copy of a published score or libretto I went with the most detailed reference source. A note on theatre v.s. theater, British English usually uses theatre only whereas American English adopted theater as the typical spelling when Webster's Dictionary made that decision. However, overtime American writers on theatre (notice I chose the other spelling here as an American) have developed a distinction: "Theater" refers to a performance venue and "Theatre" the art form. So one would say the art of theatre happens inside a theater. See https://www.broadwayworld.com/article/Theatre-vs-Theater--Whats-the-Difference-20200802. I note that this is a distinction that is not universally employed and there are performance venues whose names in the United States spell the word both way. However, making this distinction in spelling is how I was taught to write in theatre courses in college. Best.4meter4 (talk) 14:51, 18 March 2024 (UTC)
 * Thank you very much 4meter4 for tweaking all of those and for your explanations, especially in time for main page appearance. I'm glad I didn't try to guess which versions you preferred! And thanks again for yet another interesting article. JennyOz (talk) 00:20, 19 March 2024 (UTC)