Talk:The Sacred Band of Stepsons/Archive 1

Helpers
In the flesh, the scholars most likely to be able to help you with this project are to be found at WisCon, at Gaylaxicons (unfortunately, the 2010 Gaylaxicon was just cancelled), and possibly at the new convention Outlanta. -- Orange Mike  |   Talk  19:17, 13 April 2010 (UTC)

Reviews for Beyond Sanctuary, Beyond the Veil, Beyond Wizardwall
OrangeMike, am making some progress but can't say how much since I don't a password to open these reviews. Am trying to get a password. Meanwhile, here is what I've found: Morris, Janet, 1946-. "Beyond sanctuary." (1985): 312. Novelist Plus. EBSCO. Web. 13 Apr. 2010.

Morris, Janet, 1946-. "Beyond the veil." (1985): 314. Novelist Plus. EBSCO. Web. 13 Apr. 2010.

Morris, Janet, 1946-. "Beyond wizardwall." (1986): 278. Novelist Plus. EBSCO. Web. 13 Apr. 2010.

With your skills, perhaps you can open these. Or perhaps there is enough here to use.
 * I can access those through my university (UW-M); will try to get to it this week. -- Orange Mike  &#x007C;   Talk  15:36, 15 April 2010 (UTC)


 * Thank you, thank you, thank you! My librarian helper is out of pocket for this week.  He also found one that said "Janet Morris in Literary Masters," but cannot get to it to see if it is relevant. Thank you for the links, as well.  Finally it seems we are making good progress. Harmonia1 (talk) 15:51, 15 April 2010 (UTC)

Poverty of Invention; Mining the Classics with Janet morris and Harry Turtledove, Edgeworth, Kent State University
Already cited this but now I have the text and if I can I will excerpt it here for you, OrangeMike. It seems just what we need, being academic, exhaustive, acknowledging Tempus and the Sacred Band, calling out specific Sacred Band pairs and characters by name, touching on their homosexuality, likening them to the Sacred Band of Thebes, and so on.

This is not the first page, since it is a long article: (....) 

I have this whole pdf now, if you want to see it. I also have the favorable review of Beyond Sanctuary in Library Journal, 1985, but Locus has not responded, though Chris Morris was prevailed upon to make the call. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Harmonia1 (talk • contribs) 18:57, 15 April 2010 (UTC)
 * Sorry, forgot to sign, I was so pleased. The Poverty of Invention article is scholarly and very positive on the whole. Will delete this above you've read it.Harmonia1 (talk) 19:30, 15 April 2010 (UTC)
 * E-mail me the pdf. I'm going to have to delete the lengthy excerpt above, since it's so long as to constitute a copyright violation. -- Orange Mike  &#x007C;   Talk  20:00, 15 April 2010 (UTC)

Short bit from Edgeworth, Poverty of Invention
Understood. OrangeMike, I merely wanted you to see it; I was going to delete it afterward. I have the PDF but can't insert it before the citation since it was not sent with that intention.

Here's a short short bit from Edgeworth that may not violate copyright: "Janet Morris has made several of the most notable contributions(....)composed a trilogy of novels featuring her characters: Beyond Sanctuary, Beyond the Veil, and Beyond Wizardwall. Nearly all of the names of her characters in this series come from classical literature." Edgeworth, Extrapolation, Vol. 31, No. 1, © 1990 by The Kent State University Press.Harmonia1 (talk) 20:16, 15 April 2010 (UTC)


 *  Email you to what address? I have just sent the pdf to the address from which you emailed me. Harmonia1 (talk) 20:32, 15 April 2010 (UTC)
 * Any Wikipedia editor can choose to have a e-mail link on their user account. I have done so; all anyone has to do to e-mail me is to click the "E-mail this user" link in the left-hand column on my userpage or talk page. -- Orange Mike  &#x007C;   Talk  21:13, 15 April 2010 (UTC)
 * Good to know. Meanwhile, found your email to me and have already emailed the pdf to your address on gmail.  Let me know if you don't get it or if it doesn't open.  Could also do this with the Library Journal one which highlights Tempus and characters, if you wish. Harmonia1 (talk) 21:21, 15 April 2010 (UTC)

Added section: orangeMikoe, do you like this or want to omit?
Added a new section that may or may not answer the requirements of a clarifying non-fiction discussion of the fiction; if it pleases you, happy to keep it; if it doesn't help, content to remove. Your choice. Harmonia1 (talk) 01:04, 18 April 2010 (UTC)
 * The problem is that in its current form, it's original research and synthesis. -- Orange Mike  &#x007C;   Talk  20:58, 20 April 2010 (UTC)
 * Want to remove it? Not a problem if you do.  Or change the form?  If so, in what way?  Merely trying to comply.  Could quote Edgeworth and get a similar, if myopic, result.  Or omit. Harmonia1 (talk) 21:09, 20 April 2010 (UTC)

Linkfarm
I have drastically trimmed back the "External links" section, as it had many links either to non-substantial sites such as bookswap blogs, or to articles about other topics than the Stepsons. This is the article specifically about the Stepsons, not about the Morrises or about homosexuality in Ancient Greece - both of those subjects have their own articles where suitable links might go. Read WP:EL for our guidance on this topic. -- Orange Mike  |   Talk  20:58, 20 April 2010 (UTC)


 * Thanks, OrangeMike. Will read. Harmonia1 (talk) 21:09, 20 April 2010 (UTC)


 * OrangeMike, have drastically reduced section length and removed noncompliant text. Have removed references unrelated to Edgeworth.  At least forty-six of the Stepsons are Theban, homosexual Sacred Banders and two thirds of the Stepsons at times have been Sacred Banders, homosexuals and/or bisexuals), so I have difficulty fencing off their history or sexuality when I consider relevance.  But will do as you say.  Sorry for typos. Harmonia1 (talk) 00:37, 21 April 2010 (UTC)

Article improvement
I've been asked by another editor to help explain what sort of improvements are requested for this page. Since I'm a little late to the party, I'd appreciate any elaboration in the sections below. -- Explodicle (T/C) 17:06, 12 April 2010 (UTC)

Notability
The article could use a few more secondary sources that discuss the series directly and in detail. Like Orangemike suggested, academic journals or popular publications (like a newspaper or magazine) would be sufficient. -- Explodicle (T/C) 17:06, 12 April 2010 (UTC)


 * Thanks again, Exp. Lynn Abbey from Thieves' World, who kept reviews and clippings, has been asked to look at what she has, since the authors did not keep secondary source materials and are difficult to contact. Yesterday I put links to Texas A&M database to additional relevant articles about Morris's fiction that focused on sexuality and historical relatedness which logically would have had to treat these inter-related topics directly and in some detail, but that resource does not provide full text.  Will keep looking; much was of this work and reaction to it was pre-internet; as I told OrangeMiko, one author remembers an academic article but never read the text.  There were reviews in Locus, by Charles N. Brown (one of which, on the book entited Tempus from the series, began as follows:  "Fascinating...."), which may been direct and in detail, but that is the only citation to it in the Locus database that I have found, nor do I know if Locus, the publication, is considered appropriate.  Is it?  Will keep looking. Harmonia1 (talk) 19:50, 12 April 2010 (UTC)
 * Reviews in Locus would be good evidence that the books might be notable; but not that the characters qua characters are notable. That's one of the problems we're having here, is that these are two separate things. -- Orange Mike  &#x007C;   Talk  02:01, 13 April 2010 (UTC)
 * Hi, Orangemike. Perhaps we can eat this elephant one bite at a time.  If Locus suits, how does one get copies of those reviews, when all that is on the Locus site is the first few words of the review of "Tempus?"  There may be other Stepson books reviewed there as well (the front cover of that one, which I have, has as its title: "Tempus and his right-side companion, Niko,") but the whole review(s) is/are not present.  Locus liked the books and the Morrises' work; many titles were on their best-seller lists over time; two of one series at the same time.  Looked for a Locus search or back-issue order feature but couldn't find one.  You know this community better than most.  Is there someone to contact that you know of?  A separate site for cached reviews in full?  A magic word?Harmonia1 (talk) 02:42, 13 April 2010 (UTC)
 * It's like most hard-copy references: you need to find a library that carries it. Locus back issues are not online anywhere. WorldCat lists 226 libraries that carry it, from two here in Milwaukee to 7 in Australia, 2 each in South Africa and New Zealand, and one in Singapore. -- Orange Mike  &#x007C;   Talk  19:12, 13 April 2010 (UTC)


 * lots of things I didn't know here.  Interesting.Tailertoo (talk) 18:27, 13 May 2010 (UTC)

In-universe style
Although the "Evolution of the fictional Sacred Band of Stepsons" section is a good start, there should be more explanation of what real-world impact the novels/stories have had. For example,
 * Reception from professional literary critics?


 * Have added yesterday those I found on the web so far. Will keep looking.  Since the first three Stepson novels were the first, and perhaps only, Science Fiction Book Club selections from this series, until the later omnibus anthologies of stories, there must have been significant notice and reviews to justify that but will have to wait to see if Abbey comes up with any print; otherwise am limited to what can be found on the internet. These authors are very private, belong to no sexual or literary community and shy away from public exposure.


 * Backlash from the anti-homosexual community?
 * The anti-homosexual community, like the homosexual community, was not a community with a well-heard voice in early 1980s, if it was an organized community in the way that you mean or had a voice at all then that was heard by many: the anti-homosexual community thought of itself as owning the general public consensus.  Backlash is not something anyone remembers; the topic was handled very discreetly; the Sacred Band of Stepsons are special forces types, in no way effeminate; very tough. The treatment of the topic in the book was subtle, correct, unlikely to cause backlash and meant to be so. Ancient Greek sexuality was very different from today and very complex, as you may know; a man who showed himself to be 'as a woman' was derided; when a boy grew a beard, everything changed; this Sacred Band is true to that model. There was one reader review posted that complained about pederasty by one of the characters, but readers are not professionals so I ignored it.  Could find it.  Again, will keep looking.


 * Has anyone bought the movie/TV rights?
 * Not to date, to my knowledge. As I understand it, the authors, who were at the center of controversy in other areas, reverted all their fiction rights, ceased publishing fiction and using a literary agent in early 90s and just now writing fiction again. Harmonia1 (talk) 19:50, 12 April 2010 (UTC)

The "Continuing characters" section seems a little excessive too - what do these characters represent? How are they significant? -- Explodicle (T/C) 17:06, 12 April 2010 (UTC)


 * The "continuing characters" section is new yesterday. To some extent they represent the Theban Sacred Band couples and Stepson Sacred Band couples; the rest are other characters, such as female fighters, who had relationships with them.  Put it in because I thought OrangeMike said all of the Sacred Band of Stepson (SBS) material was covered in TW and covering it here would be redundant; this was not the case so I added a list to show the difference between this group of characters and the TW group listed:  TW had a characters section, entitled "main article," which was only a list of characters (and a cursory, incomplete one, so much so that a week or two ago I added to it), so I thought he meant that this article was lacking that section, took out my work on the inadequate TW character list, expanded it and put it here.  Was trying with that to answer OrangeMike requirement for "more about the fiction."  Still not sure what that means:  more about the impact of the fiction, the creation of the fiction, or the nature of the fiction?  You are saying that your interest is in the impact of the fiction, which is admittedly hard to judge except by the proliferation of general knowledge about and interest in the Sacred Band concept.  Am trying to comply.  I will out the characters list section.  Have looked at other articles on book series and they vary widely in treatment and, evidently, in requirements.  Continue to appreciate all guidance.  So far the most direct discussion I have found is in Emergence and the Beautiful Men, Strong Women pieces, which are cited here, although models of Sacred Banders (not called out as Stepsons)are made by Mattel; the story "Vashanka's Minion" was part of a comic book published by a third party; and the Stepsons play in the TW gaming products enough that specific Stepson characters names appear all over the web from gamer discussions; I found one gamer discussion on Circus Maximus among a group about just how gay are Stepsons, but this clearly not what you need.  It may take some time for me to find what you want. Forging ahead.... Harmonia1 (talk) 19:50, 12 April 2010 (UTC)


 * Orangemike, your edit today made a big improvement. If I can manage to put them in the right places on the page, will try uploading the "Tempus" cover which blatantly carries the cover page title "Tempus with his right-side companion, Niko," as well as the back, if not front, cover of "Storm Seed," which leads with "The Sacred Band Rides Again," both books from the 80s.  Trying to find a human to query at Locus; Locus lists at least one interview of Janet Morris by Charles N. Brown, so will try to get the text of that to see if it's relevant. Thanks.Harmonia1 (talk) 18:16, 13 April 2010 (UTC)

tracking down helpers
If you have names to suggest and general locations, will track them down. Thanks for additional improvements; your work on this is really helping. Are you going to keep Pelopidas in parentheses now that the word 'of' was added? I was told that Lynn Abbey reported that Bob Asprin took all the relevant TW clippings so she has none; still working on a live respondent at Locus. Carolyn Cherryh has been asked, but is unlikely to have kept more than things relevant to the three-way novel she did with Abbey and Morris, Soul of the City; but since Carolyn had her own Stepsons, including Dolon, and used Crit and Strat a lot in her stories, who knows? No stone unturned....Harmonia1 (talk) 19:55, 13 April 2010 (UTC)


 * will try to help.Tailertoo (talk) 18:27, 13 May 2010 (UTC)

OrangeMike, what comes next?
OrangeMike, I have written a new section meant to synopsize the action and describe major continuing characters. I'm not sure it is necesasry but you will know that. Is this section helpful in "describing the fiction?" I did this after reading the WP rules you suggested and looking at how the series Hammer's Slammers, Harry Turtledove's Videossos (on two separate pages!), Thieves World and Heroes in Hell were handled. Each is treated differently; some synopsize plot; some detail weaponry in the fiction; nearly all of those seem to involve some 'synthesis or original research,' since one needs to have read the books to synopsize them. Few have many citations outside the fiction itself. So I have tried to synopsize taking Cassanda's review as a starting place. It may be that one of the "notable" aspects of this series is that it was the first time anyone had "spun" off novels whose characters began in a shared universe of short fiction, but I haven't said that. Only you would know what is applicable. I could cite more games utilizing "Sacred Bands" but none of them are Stepsons-specific (except Michael Moorcock's online game), although nearly all that I've found with the exception of the many TW game books (such as Proudmore, Circus Maximus, the games associated with he Mattel miniatures of "Sacred Banders," (see http://www.hasbro.com/games/kid-games/heroscape/default.cfm?page=Inside/CharacterDetail&char_id=65&set_id=6&set_type=2) use wizards and witches and other elements not present in the Theban Sacred Band world but present in the Sacred Band of Stepsons world). I could easily do a section on weaponry as was done in Hammer's Slammers, including panoplies and war horses, but would probably want to cite comparisons to the ancient sources. You didn't like that when I last tried it.


 * Some character list might be nice.Tailertoo (talk) 18:27, 13 May 2010 (UTC)

I am trying to work on pleasing you enough to reevaluate some of the tags on the front page. I have focused first on the "wikifying" tag. Am I making any progress? What do you suggest I do next to become compliant enough to meet the requirements on the tags? Harmonia1 (talk) 18:38, 25 April 2010 (UTC)

OrangeMike, found something at "Forgotten Realms
Mike, here is the link to something called "Forgotten Realms" which seems associated with Dungeons and Dragons to me. There is relatively long article about the impact of Tempus and his Sacred Band. Link:http://oracle.wizards.com/scripts/wa.exe?A2=ind0403d&L=realms-l&P=16967

Text: ''Janet Morris, TW 'Beyond' novels ['Beyond Sanctuary', 'Beyond the Veil', 'Beyond Wizardwall']'' ''Janet Morris' character Tempus and his merc company the Stepsons were iconic Thieves' World Characters. tempus was an immortal avatar of the Storm God and the Stepsons were originally a 'sacred band', based on the historical Sacred Band of Thebes whose members were rumored to all be lovers. She wrote three TW novels depicting their adventures outside of sanctuary itself. Later, she wrote more novels that took Tempus and his Stepsons planewalking, but I really can't recommend those. They also were not TW novels, unlike the first three.'' ''FOR THE REALMS DM: The Stepsons were inspiration in part for the 'Black Guard' of my Mercs campaign, and looking at how they operate and act would be great for any Dm using a merc company such as the Flaming Fist of Baldur's Gate. These books also have some really cool magic items, depiction of a group of wizards whose methods the Zhentarim or Red Wizards might imitate, and wonderful, realistic depiction of religion in a fantasy/polytheistic framework. Also, Tempus and his sister Cime are immortals, and Tempus is an avatar of a God. they provide a wonderful, albeit less benevolent, example of the sort of supra-human demigods you see in Elminster or the Seven Sisters of FR fame. Also, plenty of examples of 'witch' character in the old Complete Wizard's handbook sense, lots of demons, and examples of priestly magic (seldom seen in fantasy novels). The Bandaran's offer not only an example of a 'western' monastic movement, but also an example of psionics in a magical universe. Plus, how to plot adventures for your Pcs around a larger war, and large scale, national politics.''

Whether or not this usable, it demonstrates the effect I'm trying to document. Any suggestions of how to further demonstrate this, such as including some of the proliferation of games using various Sacred Bands, would be helpful.Harmonia1 (talk) 21:30, 30 April 2010 (UTC)
 * The Forgotten Realms is a campaign setting for D&D gaming; in fact, the oldest of them. However: that looks like it's a blog post, and as such fails our standards of reliable sources. Part of the problem is that this is not a topic written about much in the mundane gay press, or in the straight gamer press. I'd suggest that you might find something in the GLBT and GLBT-friendly science fiction fanzines, which (alas) are not generally indexed. I repeat my earlier suggestion, that most of the people most likely to be able to help on something like this would be found at either a Wiscon or a Gaylaxicon. (I'll be at Wiscon this year myself, and may spread a few queries about.) -- Orange Mike  &#x007C;   Talk  18:36, 3 May 2010 (UTC)


 * will try to helpTailertoo (talk) 18:27, 13 May 2010 (UTC)