Talk:The Screwtape Letters/Archive 1

Miss Wormwood
Is the Bill Waterson statement confirmed? Wormwood is just a herb, so there might be other explanations, unless he's said so himself, of course.


 * He has said so himself. See The Calvin and Hobbes Tenth Anniversary Book, or, if that's not readily available, the cast page on the official web site. --Paul A 04:58, 20 Sep 2004 (UTC)

Satire
Shouldn't the satirical nature of the work be mentioned in the article? As the whole book is written from the perspective of a demon, and everything bad is mentioned as a great thing for the progress of the patient it is certainly a satire. I just don't know where to put it, is satire considered a genre? 208.97.117.154 07:02, 1 April 2007 (UTC)

No. You are silly.--208.97.117.154 13:52, 3 April 2007 (UTC)

The Guardian
hfgytreytr I believe the link to "The Guardian" is incorrect. Lewis published in a now-defunct Anglican (?) periodical of that name, and what is now "The Guardian" (where the link will lead readers) was then called the "Manchester Guardian". Can anyone confirm this? The link should be fixed, and maybe an explanatory phrase inserted in the text.

--Lavintzin 22:27, 5 December 2005 (UTC)


 * You are absolutely correct (Lewis clearly states that "The Guardian" of which he speaks was defunct by 1961), and I have made the correction.


 * John W. Kennedy 23:45, 25 October 2006 (UTC)

Review of the Orwell Review
The "Orwell Review" section is an interesting factoid but it doesn't deserve its own heading. Maybe it could be put under "Cultural References", or maybe we could include some other peoples' reviews, but it's better to not include it at all than to include it as a main section.

Note: a simple web search will show you the full text of Orwell's review.

Reference to "Screwtape Proposes a Toast"
This article on the "Screwtape Letters" references his sequel, "Screwtape Proposes a Toast", and that this work ("Screwtape proposes a Toast") is a work where C. S. Lewis speculates in more detail on the subject of "soul consumption".

I have to disagree with this in view of Lewis' own words in what was going to be his preface to a collection of his works of which the "Toast" was to be the title essay. This preface was written in 1962. According to Lewis' preface, "Screwtape Proposes a Toast" is an indictment of education, more specifically, education in America. In this writing, which was lost for awhile, C. S. Lewis explicitly states this.

This is what the publisher (see below re: the copy I own) adds relative to the preface Lewis wrote and "Screwtape Proposes a Toast":
 * "This criticism of American education was written in 1962 as a preface to a collection of which the "Toast" was to be the title essay. After Lewis died, his publisher gave the book a new form, one result of which was that Lewis' preface was lost. Now recovered, it is published here for the first time."

Examination of Lewis' own words will prove this.

Lewis starts off in his preface:
 * ""Screwtape Proposes a Toast" was written years after the original "Screwtape Letters". It takes over from them the technique of what may be called diabolical ventriloquism. Screwtape's outlook is like a photographic negative; his whites are our blacks and whatever he welcomes we ought to dread. But in the original Letters this device was applied to the religious and moral life of an individual. In the "Toast" the main subject is education."

A little further in the same writing Lewis stated:
 * "The tendency in education which I was deploring has gone further in America than anywhere else. If I had been writing "straight" my article would have been an attack on the "public schools" in America."

The tendency in education he was refering to is what many policy makers (mainly conservative policy makers) in this country have condemned the public education system of doing in that it has lowered academic standards, has made it impossible for teachers to teach subjects of any substantive value or even to be teachers, and to grade and assess students' progress honestly - even if it means they have to fail some of the students.

I offer this quote from Lewis' preface as proof that this was his viewpoint as well:
 * "In my view there is a sense in which education ought to be democratic and another sense in which it ought not. It ought to be democratic in the sense of being available, without distinction of sex, colour, class, race or religion, to all who can - and will - diligently accept it. But once the young people are inside the school there must be no attempt to establish a factitious egalitarianism between the idlers and dunces on the one hand and the clever and industrious on the other. A modern nation needs a very large class of genuinely educated people, and it is the primary function of schools and universities to supply them. To lower standards or disguise inequalities is fatal."

My source for making these points are from my own personal copy of the "Screwtape Letters", which includes "Screwtape Proposes a Toast", as well what would have been C. S. Lewis' preface to this second collection of his works.

The particular copy of the book I possess is "The Screwtape Letters", Revised Edition, and was published by Collier Books, Macmillan Publishing Company, in 1982.

In view of the above, this article should be revised to state what C. S. Lewis' intention was when he wrote "Screwtape Proposes a Toast", in that it was his indictment of public education, more specifically, American public education.

Layreader 18:32, 25 November 2006 (UTC)


 * Years later I have provided the link "public education (state schooling)". --P64 (talk) 16:40, 30 May 2012 (UTC)

Identity of "Patient"
The paragraph "An interesting observation is that, although English-speaking readers from one of the Allied countries naturally consider the 'Patient' to be a young Englishman, there is absolutly no indication that this is the case, and the protagonist could with perfect ease be taken to be British, German, French, or any other nationality. To Lewis, as to the devils, it was a matter of perfect indifference whether the 'Patient' was a heroic RAF fighter pilot, a Nazi Stormtrooper, or an Italian peasant farmer - all are human, and all may be saved or damned for essentially internal moral reasons."

is clearly eronious since in Chapter VI Wormwood is encouraged to consider inflaming the Patient's malice for the Germans and Screwtape also complains that for such hatred the English are the 'most deplorable milksops'

129.67.20.84 10:11, 13 February 2007 (UTC)


 * Screwtape worries that the Patient's hatred for Germans is not sufficient to keep him (or other Englishmen) from being generous or forgiving to individual members of the German Army. Also, the patient is definitely not an RAF pilot, as he is never drafted into the military and has some sort of civilian role which he performs during Luftwaffe bomb raids. Fixed the paragraph referenced above in light of this information.  Daniel B. Douglas 14:47, 17 February 2007 (UTC)

Request for Clarification
"References are made to demons known only as 'ST' and 'WW,' (for it had become a crime in hell to even speak their real names) who had their letters found by a human and were punished by Beelzebub for their incompetence."

Since Kreeft and Alcorn are mentioned in the same paragraph, it is not clear whether the references are made in Kreeft's book, Alcorn's book, or some third work.Darkfrog24 19:33, 9 March 2007 (UTC)

Film?
How can this book be turned into a film? It's not really possible, because it is more or less just a series of letters. What can be done filmwise with a series of letters written by a demon? Scorpionman 21:05, 21 September 2007 (UTC)


 * You will note that I have recently added a note about a stage production. What they did was introduce the character of Screwtape's secretary, and it becomes a two-man play. Something similar could easily be done with a film production. It would not, obviously, be a big, splashy Hollywood style film, but it could be done. -- DrGaellon (talk | contribs) 02:36, 7 October 2007 (UTC)


 * Mmm...yes, I sure hope that's not what they had in mind. I'm sure it will be most interesting. Scorpionman 02:48, 13 November 2007 (UTC)

Levelling?
The wikilink to "leveling" leads to this article on the Levellers. It discusses an English political movement that existed centuries before C.S. Lewis lived. The article says nothing about education. Is this the same phenomenon that Lewis was criticizing in Screwtape Proposes a Toast or is it a different one with a similar name? (I suspect overenthusiastic wikilinking.) For the time being, I've removed the wikilink. "Levelling" sounds like it means "social promotion," but the article on social promotion doesn't mention the term. Does anyone know what this thing means? Darkfrog24 (talk) 21:15, 9 January 2009 (UTC)
 * Yes it means two things: a) "mainstreaming" "Special Ed" students, and b) suppressing the advancement of gifted students, forcing them to learn mediocre curricula at the same speed as their age peers like everyone else, which some say relates to the problems of bullying of gifted students with poor esteem, 'doping' them with drugs, and the modern wave of school spree shootings by such students in response to bullying. Thus the idea is levelling all students of the same age group to the same curricula content and speed for the sake of socialization. 97.94.189.111 (talk) 18:13, 7 December 2009 (UTC)

Apologetics or Epistles?
I appreciate someone really analyzing what the book is or isn't. Hard to argue that it isn't an "epistle." But it seems to me to meet the definition of apologetics, as well. "Christian apologetics is a field of Christian theology that aims to present a rational basis for the Christian faith, defend the faith against objections, and expose the perceived flaws of other world views." The "other" world view being those of Wormwood and Screwtape, also the hero's associates, from time to time.

It isn't done in the classical manner, but it is still apologetics IMO. See Dot org but seems like blog, blog that reads well, britannica, more by implication.

Anyway, epistolary is the writing style, but the function is purely apologetics IMO. Student7 (talk) 21:15, 2 October 2009 (UTC)

Country of Publication
I changed the country of publication from Ireland to The United Kingdom. Look into it on the Abe Books website; the Geoffrey Bles company is located in London. Therefore it's more correct to say that the book is published out of England, or at least the U.K., irregardless of where C.S. Lewis himself is from. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 69.127.200.152 (talk) 01:41, 26 December 2009 (UTC)

Lord Foulgrin's Letters?
In the Cultural references section, should there be a mention of Lord Foulgrin's Letters by Randy Alcorn? Its a modern text written in the same style as CS Lewis' work and the demon Wormwood even makes an, albeit minor, appear in the narrative.-- Surv1v4l1st (Talk 21:14, 4 May 2012 (UTC)

Screwtape
FYI we have a stub for the fictional character Screwtape which i have now linked to this article (twice). --P64 (talk) 16:40, 30 May 2012 (UTC)

Screwtape Letter and Outwitting the Devil
is it strange that The Napolean Hill Outwitting the Devil (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Outwitting_the_Devil) and C.S. Lewis The Screwtape Letters (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:The_Screwtape_Letters) speak on basically the same subject and were written around the same time?

A devil/demon speaks and exposes his plans and technique to control men, and both mention the term "Drifting".

Weird! — Preceding unsigned comment added by 64.134.180.155 (talk) 21:29, 13 August 2012 (UTC)

Affectionately Yours, Screwtape
There is a DVD available called ''Affectionately Yours, Screwtape: The Devil and C.S. Lewis" (2007)

http://www.amazon.com/Affectionately-Yours-Screwtape-Devil-Lewis/dp/B000R3X3FO

Is there any reason why it should not be included in the article?

--Nat (talk) 01:02, 2 September 2013 (UTC)
 * It could be listed under "External links", if nothing else.--JayJasper (talk) 02:23, 2 September 2013 (UTC)

Addition of ISBN from Wikidata
Please note that this article's infobox is retrieving an ISBN from Wikidata currently. This is the result of a change made to Infobox book as a result of this RfC. It would be appreciated if an editor took some time to review this ISBN to ensure it is appropriate for the infobox. If it is not, you could consider either correcting the ISBN on Wikidata (preferred) or introducing a blank ISBN parameter in the infobox to block the retrieval from Wikidata. If you do review the ISBN, please respond here so other editors don't duplicate your work. This is an automated message to address concerns that this change did not show up on watchlists. ~ RobTalk 01:26, 15 May 2016 (UTC)