Talk:The Shadows

re-wrote
I re-wrote the entire first page from my personal knowledge of the Shadows. I did this without referring to any books, web pages or previous versions in a bid to avoid inadvertantly copying any copyright material. I think the result is OK however I will need to go and re-read The Story Of The Shadows and go through and put in dates, unless anyone else would care to do this in the meantime. Thanks, Dave Farmbrough 08:53 (BST) 4 MAY 2005

I have researched into the Christmas number one of 1962 using the Guiness book of hit singles and albums 2006 number one timeline and found the box to at error. Return to Sender was number one on Christmas and was only knocked off the top on 3rd January by 'the next time'. I am removing the box. Regards Louis

Tasty
I've changed some details in the list of albums:


 * 3 albums were listed as compilations, when they were original studio recordings. ("At Their Very Best" was an album release of the re-recorded tracks mentioned in the 1980s article text)
 * 1 album was not marked as being a compilation ("Another String of Hot Hits" is composed mostly of previously released material, except one track "Black Is Black" which was recorded for "Tasty" but not included on the final album.
 * 1 album was omitted (Tasty, 1977). It's the only missing Studio album, so I assume this is in error rather than policy of the "Selected" part of "Selected Discography". Unfortunately I have no information on where it placed in the UK chart, so the list is not yet complete.

Fair use rationale for Image:Shadows6.jpg
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Fair use rationale for Image:Shadows5.jpg
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Fair use rationale for Image:Shadows4.jpg
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Fair use rationale for Image:Shadows3.jpg
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Fair use rationale for Image:Shadows1.jpg
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I uploaded the cover images
sometime in the distant past, but have decided to not figure out how to protect them. This is across the board with all the covers that I've added to various articles. If someone thinks that they are a good element in the article, feel free to figure out how to keep them. Carptrash 14:45, 6 June 2007 (UTC)

Reverted back several versions
Some idiot "Benjammin" had written various sexually-themed pieces of nonsense; I really do not think The Shadows have any interest in bestiality, nor is their success attributable to prostitution. I actually don't know the easy way to revert back so had to do it one at a time. I don't even like Sir Cliff, I hope he appreciates my removing the references to dog sex. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Mongoletsi (talk • contribs) 09:52, 16 September 2008 (UTC)

Far too long
This article is ridiculously long, mainly due to its containing of reams and reams of information that should blatently put in related sub-articles, or even erased completely! I have added two appropriate templates to that effect. The article includes such titles as "Important", items such as google search results, details on what clothes the membes wore on tours, etc etc.. It seriously needs cleanup! Retrorocker (talk) 09:56, 25 July 2009 (UTC) There is a lot of tedious information that would be better placed on a website dedicated to the band. Also the author seems to be an apologist when discussing the Beatles. Do we really need to keep comparing the Shadows to the Beatles and does the article imply that the Shadows were/are a more popular or successful band than the Beatles? The article reads like a piece from a teenybopper magazine or a fanzine. Give credit to a band when it is due but this is too much, it is below the quality standards I've come to expect from Wikipedia. It was bad enough that I wrote here for the first time and am now going to get an account on Wikipedia. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.0.48.159 (talk) 12:40, 14 August 2009 (UTC)

I concur. This is one of the largest articles that I have ever seen and it only includes 16 footnotes. --98.184.79.184 (talk) 01:27, 21 August 2009 (UTC)

This article is totally crap. It is written like a damn research paper on the band!!! I had to go back to February to find a presentable version of the article. I'm putting the link here for reference. I seriously think it should be reverted to this version and taken forward from there. --Aksnitd (talk) 19:22, 9 September 2009 (UTC)

http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=The_Shadows&oldid=273767281

this sentence in legacy
Hank Marvin is considered by most major British rock guitarists to be the most significant and important lead guitarist of the 20th century

i will just change it, i never have read that even one well known guitar palyer said that, i mean he's good, but not that good, and since there is no source, i will erase it.


 * No caps key on your PC? Anyway, you don’t read much obviously - Frank Zappa acknowledged them on his first album, Neil Young started because of Marvin and the Shadows (his entire act began as Shadows covers); George Harrison said The Beatles were influenced - if only to out do them - and the track “Cry for a Shadow” is an obvious nod to Marvin’s style; Clapton, Beck, Townsend, Brian May, Mark Knopfler… the list goes on and on… —Preceding unsigned comment added by 79.67.148.152 (talk) 17:27, 30 November 2009 (UTC)

and SHORTEN THE FUCKING ARTICLE!!!

that much information is Ok with a band like the beatles, i mean everyone of their hits is well known, and even their studio albums often have the biggest stuff, but this is much too much.

Name Changes
The article states "the Beatles and the Rolling Stones and all other groups post-Beatles continued to use their birth names throughout their career in music"

I am glad Richard Starkey and William Perks always performed under their birth names and never changed them to anything stupid like Ringo Starr or Bill Wyman —Preceding unsigned comment added by 81.108.14.124 (talk) 00:46, 10 October 2009 (UTC)

Lead Guitarists
I don't think it's fair to say ALL lead guitarists have been influenced by Hank Marvin. It would be better to say he was highly influential or something like that. Also, the sentence doesn't make sense (grammar-wise).

In listing lead guitarists, the first one was "Paul McCartney of The Beatles". Paul was usually the bassist; George Harrison was the lead guitarist (who was influenced by Hank Marvin). Mclay1 (talk) 02:19, 19 October 2009 (UTC)

to make that clear, paul was one of the three guitar players in the 5 piece beatles up to 61, then stu left the band and macca came to play bass, and george wrote cry for a shadow as a little parody tribute to the shadows.

oh my fucking god, really, they're a great band, i'm gonna see them live tomorrow, but it's surely not hank marvins thing to have made all careers of all british guitarist possible, really, i mean the beatles started their own british invasion which made it possible for all the others to get fame, but not the sahdows, i'm jus gonna change some fo this anti any other band than the shadows thing, really.

legacy section
it's not much in it by now, you can add some stuff back, but if i read things like most important lead guitarist of the 20th century again, or like every metal band being infleunced by them because of the fenders i will erase it again, keep it real shadows fans, i mean it were the beach boys who really gave fender their start because they used the insturments on all their tv appearances, that's why the beach boys are in the fender hall of fame. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 213.196.241.196 (talk) 18:43, 27 November 2009 (UTC)

Copyedit
I've done some copyediting and removed some of the ridiculous hyperbole, (see wp:peacock), unsupported statements and obsessive detail - who cares what the catalogue numbers were for their albums? - save that for the discography section. If you want to add anything to the article please remember this isn't a Shadows fanzine, it's an encyclopaedia with policies such as wp:Neutral point of view and wp:reliable sources. I will doing some more editing and adding more "citation needed" tags as I get time. If they don't get acted upon in a reasonable amount of time then that information will also be removed. Richerman (talk) 12:06, 4 December 2009 (UTC)
 * Well catalogue numbers would be part of a well-referenced discography. Presumably there is a separate discography article? Rich Farmbrough, 23:43, 20 December 2009 (UTC).

Stage names
To readdress something another user mentioned, the article states about pop stars using stage names that "This behaviour by British rock/pop stars came to an abrupt end in 1963 with the Beatles and Rolling Stones." Ringo Starr of the Beatles and Bill Wyman of The Rolling Stones both used stage names so both examples are flawed.Mclay1 (talk) 04:50, 9 December 2009 (UTC)

Appendixes
What's with the giant appendixes at the end of the article? These should be shortened drastically. I have never seen appendixes like that at the end of an article before. Mclay1 (talk) 04:57, 9 December 2009 (UTC)
 * They are poorly named. I have split them into sections and done a little re-factoring. The article needs reasonably good content moving around to form a coherent whole. I think the typos are sorted. Columns would be good for some of the longer lists.  De-POVing a little more - yes The Shadows are one of the most successful bands ever, especially in the UK, and no, this isn't widely recognised, and yes, the Beatle effect is probably to blame.  But report it, cite it and move on, don't make it the theme of the article. [[image:Smiley.svg|15px]] Rich Farmbrough, 00:02, 21 December 2009 (UTC).

The appendixes need editing again because some annoying user reverted heaps of good edits including edits that corrected spelling and grammar.Mclay1 (talk) 14:38, 28 December 2009 (UTC)

Allegations of bias against The Shadows and Cliff Richard
wikipedia is an encyclopedia which must contain factual information. The section 'Allegations of bias against The Shadows and Cliff Richard' is dominated by unverifiable statements and for the most part statements which are just not appropriate for an encyclopedia. They are more relevant to a blog or similar. I propose that this section is deleted. Boatman (talk) 15:20, 21 June 2010 (UTC) (PS I am huge Shadows fan!! Saw their concerts in the '60s with Jet and Tony etc etc)
 * Agreed. Unfortunately, I don't think it will make much difference as this article seems to attract Shadows fans who have a burning resentment towards the later success of the Beatles. They had their moment, made a great contribution and then the world moved on - deal with it. Richerman (talk) 17:37, 21 June 2010 (UTC)

Excessive detail
This article seems to have grown and grown; unfortunately the effect is less than positive. No serious encyclopedia would have this level of trivial detail. It really needs trimming back in order to become a good article.--''' SabreBD  (talk ) 22:37, 23 June 2010 (UTC)
 * I agree. This level of detail would be appropriate for an encyclopedia dedicated only to The Shadows; but that is not what we are. Further to comments from other editors, I have culled particularly unsourced material, but more so stuff that "might" (but only just) be worthy of separate articles. As it was, it was a breach of WP:INDISCRIMINATE, let alone WP:RS. Editors are invited to take my removals on a case-by-case basis and either restore here, or start new articles provided the notability can be established. Rodhull  andemu  00:09, 27 June 2010 (UTC)

Citation
> Their unique[citation needed] guitar sound was originally produced...<

What kind of citation does this need? Isn't it obvious? Please be serious. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Stekflit (talk • contribs) 02:18, 28 June 2010 (UTC)

Members
Including session and touring musicians, temporary fill-ins, and Welch's Shadows members - it might go something like this:
 * Harry Webb
 * Ian Samwell
 * Terry Smart
 * Ken Pavey
 * Norman Mitham
 * Hank Marvin
 * Bruce Welch
 * Jet Harris
 * Tony Meehan
 * Laurie Jay
 * Brian Bennett
 * Brian Locking
 * John Rostill
 * Alan Hawkshaw
 * John Farrar
 * Clem Cattini
 * Dave Richmond
 * Geoff Atherton
 * Duffy Power
 * Johnny Van Derek
 * Dave Ackley
 * Alan Tarney
 * Kevin Peek
 * Trevor Spencer
 * Dave Olney
 * Andrew Steele
 * Francis Monkman
 * Mo Foster
 * Cliff Hall
 * Alan Jones
 * David Lawson
 * George Ford
 * Paul Westwood
 * Mark Griffiths
 * Ben Marvin
 * Phil Kelly
 * Bob Watkins
 * Keith Heyman
 * Warren Bennett

Some probably don't belong on this list, while others missing from it (if any) do. Best, --Discographer (talk) 01:26, 9 October 2011 (UTC)

Legacy and influence
''Legacy and influence This section needs additional citations for verification. Please help improve this article by adding citations to reliable sources. Unsourced material may be challenged and removed. (July 2010)

The Shadows have been cited as a major influence on some American guitarists but also many British, Australian, Canadian and European guitarists, including Eric Clapton, David Gilmour, Tony Iommi,[14] Mark Knopfler, Neil Young, Steve Clark and Randy Bachman.''

My opinion/experience: Almost any european rock/pop-guitarist who started playing guitar in the mid-1960ies was surely influenced by the Shadows. Rory Gallagher, Ritchie Blackmore, Peter Green, Jimmy Page - name whatever guitarist in the sixties who wasn't hooked on the 'Shadows-Sound'. The sound, wich is still present on contemporary Vinyl-Records (now more than 50 years ago), is extraordinary. Maybe the old Shadows songs sound terrible on modern CD releases, because the record companies remastered them for modern purposes. My old vinyls sound very good (I'm using early 70ies-HIFI-Gear). Ok, this is my equipment: Marantz 2270 Receiver, Dual 1219 & 704 Turntable (both Shure V15-Type III) and B&W dm-2a speakers. The vinyl-records from the Shadows sound far better than much other 60ies-productions or even 80ies-productions. Rumour says, that George Martin (the Beatles-producer) was also the producer for several early Shadows-recordings.

Maybe one could add the 'Fiesta-Red-Stratocaster-Story' in the article. In the early 60ies the red Stratocaster was very rare in Great Britain, because Hank Marvin got one and anybody else wanted to get the red one. The red ones were soon sold out. It's rumour that Fender sent nude unpainted Stratocasters to England and they finished them there in Fiesta Red. Early sixties Rory Gallagher saw a (used?) sunburst-Strat in a guitarstore. Anything else than a "Red Strat" was out of time. He bought this sunburst for low money and this Stratocaster was THE Gallagher-Strat as we know it. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 93.230.221.119 (talk) 21:54, 8 May 2013 (UTC)

I just removed
this recently added section from the 1970s section.
 * "During the early 1970s, Marvin and Welch had a second career as vocal group Marvin Welch & Farrar with John Farrar as third vocalist. Farrar provided a distinctive, falsetto style and skill as an arranger. They recorded two albums and several singles and, without Welch, a third album Marvin and Farrar. Live performances were hampered by audiences expecting the Shadows' greatest hits. Marvin said interviewed in Guitar Greats by John Tobler: "In the Batley Variety Club we walked off stage to the sound of our own footsteps!"

Had this section, which sounds true enough, been added by a registered editor I would have left it in and contacted the editor. This is not possible so I moved it here. There are several options as to what happens next, what I would like to see is that it is referenced and returned. Einar aka Carptrash (talk) 20:30, 29 December 2015 (UTC)


 * The problem at the moment is that the article mentions Farrar leaving the band ("Following the rare vocal single "It'll Be Me, Babe", written and sung by Marvin & Farrar, John Farrar amicably left the band that year, moving to the US to become the music producer for Olivia Newton-John."), but not joining it. Jah77 (talk) 18:21, 30 November 2021 (UTC)


 * In fact, having read the deleted quote above, I'm not even sure whether "the band" is supposed to refer to The Shadows or Marvin, Welch & Farrar. Jah77 (talk) 18:26, 30 November 2021 (UTC)

Cliff Hall
The link of Cliff Hall to The Spinners is wrong. That is another Cliff Hall, not the Shadows man.--WalterNeumann (talk) 10:33, 3 March 2017 (UTC)

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"Mountains of the Moon (The Shadows song)" listed at Redirects for discussion
An editor has identified a potential problem with the redirect Mountains of the Moon (The Shadows song) and has thus listed it for discussion. This discussion will occur at Redirects for discussion/Log/2022 February 26 until a consensus is reached, and readers of this page are welcome to contribute to the discussion. Richhoncho (talk) 23:15, 26 February 2022 (UTC)

All about the basses
"Alan Jones – bass (1977–1985, 1987–1989) George Ford – bass (1978–1980; died 2007)"

So the group had two bass guitarists at once, rather like Ned's Atomic Dustbin? Harfarhs (talk) 13:22, 27 December 2023 (UTC)