Talk:The Sister: The extraordinary story of Kim Yo Jong, the most powerful woman in North Korea

Requested move 19 February 2024

 * The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

The result of the move request was: moved. There is consensus to move the article to The Sister: The extraordinary story of Kim Yo Jong, the most powerful woman in North Korea. (non-admin closure) voorts (talk/contributions) 00:08, 2 March 2024 (UTC)

The Sister: North Korea's Kim Yo Jong, the Most Dangerous Woman in the World → The Sister (biography) – It was first published in the UK, where it is simply called The Sister, so that's the title we should be using. The addition to the UK edition "The extraordinary story of Kim Yo Jong, the most powerful woman in North Korea" is just a description, not a true subtitle. -- Necrothesp (talk) 12:00, 19 February 2024 (UTC)
 * Thank you for this potential improvement in the titling of the article. While I continue to ponder the pros and cons of the proposed alternative title (and will circle back with further thoughts), I wanted to share some analysis for why I came to the conclusion that the subtitles are a formally part of the titles.


 * I think there is some degree of ambiguity on whether MacMillan's edition is officially just The Sister (as listed in the UK website), or The Sister: The extraordinary story of Kim Yo Jong, the most powerful woman in North Korea (as listed in MacMillan's Australian website). One source that makes me lean towards believing the longer title is the formal one, is an ISBN search (MacMillan in the UK: https://www.panmacmillan.com.au/9781761267000/ Public Affairs in the US: https://isbnsearch.org/isbn/9781541704121). Another, is Google Books. Also booksellers are listing the books with their subtitles.


 * Thank you. AlbertBF-WIR (talk) 01:43, 20 February 2024 (UTC)
 * From the titling policies I saw that there are multiple considerations: concision, precision, recognizability... As I reflect on these and the name of the book, I believe that The Sister (biography) would be too unrecognizeable and imprecise.


 * As I look at other existing articles, I see multiple that include the subtitle:
 * Gods and Kings: The Rise and Fall of Alexander McQueen and John Galliano
 * The Last Empress: Madame Chiang Kai-shek and the Birth of Modern China
 * George Soros: The Life and Times of a Messianic Billionaire
 * Marie von Clausewitz: The Woman Behind the Making of On War
 * Madame Chiang Kai-shek: China's Eternal First Lady


 * I think it is all the more important to keep the long full title of The Sister: North Korea's Kim Yo Jong, the Most Dangerous Woman in the World, because only in the subtitle is name of the subject (Kim Yo Jong) mentioned. I think that is a crucial piece of information to include in the name of the article. Just naming the article The Sister (biography) would be too imprecise and too little recognizable.


 * An alternative short title The Sister (biography of Kim Yo Jong) would be more precise, however, I see many articles showing the full title the books (per above). Finally, there is another finer point to be made: the book in part a biography, but also many sources cited in the article note that the book is also in part a treatise on the country and regime. Labeling the article with the parenthetical "(biography)" might be an inaccurate or reductionist characterization of the book.


 * Because of all these reasons, I think that even if the full title of the book is long, it is still the preferable to use that full title as the name for the article. I am agnostic as to whether to use the UK version or the US version of the long title. Thank you. AlbertBF-WIR (talk) 06:07, 21 February 2024 (UTC)
 * The main point is that its original title was not The Sister: North Korea's Kim Yo Jong, the Most Dangerous Woman in the World, but simply The Sister. We generally retain the title used in the original country of publication. The Sister (book) would also be fine if there are issues with it being a true biography. I really don't think the blurb on the cover of the UK edition really counts as a subtitle, but I would be willing to accept The Sister: The extraordinary story of Kim Yo Jong, the most powerful woman in North Korea as an article title if others disagree. -- Necrothesp (talk) 09:01, 21 February 2024 (UTC)
 * If necessary we can look at and share in more detail what the sources say about what is the original full title. However, I am supportive of changing the name of the article to The Sister: The extraordinary story of Kim Yo Jong, the most powerful woman in North Korea. I think that could be the article name of consensus. AlbertBF-WIR (talk) 16:49, 21 February 2024 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.