Talk:The Sisters of Mercy/Archive 1

Incomplete? Bootlegs excluded?
No mention of the early, cleaned-up live compilation CD "Floorshow" from The Swingin' Pig Records? I have it right in front of me, but don't know more details other than it appears to be a Luxembourg (it says on the CD) bootleg publisher that stopped in 1996.
 * If we start including bootlegs, this article will be a lot longer. It's said that they are the second most bootlegged band, second only to The Beatles. If bootlegs are to be included, I think it should be limited to bootlegs that are fairly easy to find and which contains material not found on the official records.88.131.91.2 (talk) 14:01, 16 March 2009 (UTC)

24 March 2006 Reversion (Comment on 2006 tour smoke/sound quality)
I reverted a change today, on account of the new comment relating anecdotes about fans complaining in 2006 because of sound quality and the amount of smoke (!) are not NPOV. (There is evidence of fans being incredibly happy with the sound and amount of smoke at the 2006 N. American dates, too). Apologies for not explaining in the revision comment, but I misfired on the save button. Cadda 21:18, 24 March 2006 (UTC)


 * This was my edit you reverted, and the comment is factual. It did NOT state that all fans were unhappy with the smoke and sound quality, only that some are, and I have evidence to back up this assertion. I have a number of web references to back up the edit, and I will post them tonight. -GClose


 * No need to post your web references, because that's not what I'm arguing about (I accept what you say is factual). I reverted it because I don't think that the comment merits inclusion in the article, because:
 * For a truly NPOV discussion on the point, one would need to indicate that there are both fans that are happy with the 2006 shows (see the reviews of Toronto, for example), as well as those who are not. What good can come of such a wishy-washy and obvious remark?
 * In two months' time (say), will unbalanced commentary about what some fans thought of the 2006 tour really belong in an encyclop&aelig;dia article? Consider the absence of commentary this way about any other tour.


 * I think if you're insisting on including commentary on the level of smoke, then maybe a section or paragraph on just the live act ought to be created, and remarks about that should include commentary on their light show and the unusual amount of fog they habitually deploy. The band have used immense amounts of fog/smoke since the very early 80s &mdash; intentionally, as one can read in their CD liner notes &mdash; and that's something distinctive about them and does merit inclusion in the article (if it isn't already there). Some people like it, some people don't, and that's not very interesting. To me, a good description of the live show is more important to include than unbalanced, isolated remarks on what some audience members think about their live act.Cadda 03:21, 25 March 2006 (UTC)


 * Well, I am not all that sold on the "SOM uses lots of fog, get used to it" argument, as the show at the Warfield last night was just completely ridiculous. I've seen SOM about 4 years ago here in San Francisco, and it was nothing like this. I sat through 4 songs and didn't even get so much as a glimpse of Andrew. We asked for, and received, our money back from the Warfield, due to the lack of any kind of a show. Nothing but swirling fog. I do accept that this is perhaps too detailed and too much of an opinion to include in an encyclop&aelig;dia article, however.


 * FWIW, I am sorry that you didn't enjoy the show in SFO. My "too much fog" story: when I saw them in Anaheim in 1999, the fog set off the fire alarm and the house lights came up automatically in the middle of the set. It was already surreal&mdash;it was at a dinner theatre, where the audience was forced to have a sit-down supper with each other before the show&mdash;but when the fire alarm went off and the lights came up in the middle of a song, the band stops and Eldo says "this place is getting weirder." Anyway I'm sorry if I broke protocol by reverting your edit; I'm new at this, so no hard feelings. I'll leave you with a quote from the Some Girls Wander By Mistake (1992) liner notes: "I like to think it was the songs that made this band. I know it wasn't. We used a lot of smoke, very few lights, stepped right back and just made a space where you could lose yourself (but more probably find yourself) in a tide of colour and noise. It sounds simple, but no-one that really wanted to be a rock 'n' roll star could have done it. [...] The records were never supposed to reflect that experience&mdash;it's a different medium, and one we're still learning. Maybe some of it comes through." Cadda 05:41, 26 March 2006 (UTC)


 * I've been watching the Sisters (in their many incarnations) since the early 80s and their gigs have hardly changed - Darkness, lots of smoke and great atmosphere.


 * A recent, non-anecdotal report about poor sound quality at a SOM gig: http://www.webcutsmusic.com/reviews/live-reviews/2009/the-sisters-of-mercy-london-9th-april/ --124.254.68.160 (talk) 05:15, 11 April 2009 (UTC)

Patricia Morrison
"Patricia Morrison, perhaps pretending to play bass (1985-1989) " pretending to play bass??!
 * Yes, Eldritch has frequently said she did nothing in the studio, and only pretended to play for the videos. There is a court case pending. I don't know what the truth is. Folkor 19:38, 5 February 2006 (UTC)
 * I would be quite surprised if this were true. Patricia came to prominence playing Bass in The Gun Club, and The Bags. She is the current bassist of The Damned as well.--FACT50 21:28, 9 November 2006 (UTC)

Not to mention which, Patricia Morrison was credited on The Sisterhood Album "The Gift" before the rights to the "Sisters of Mercy" name reverted to A. Eldritch and he asked her to continue working with him in the Sisters of Mercy. It seems pretty unlikely that she played with Eldritch - was in fact sought out by him - on the Sisterhood album, then acted as merely a soundboard or pretty face and voice on the next two Sisters of Mercy albums as he asserts. Eldritch comes off sounding like a spoiled brat who doesn't want to share credit (certainly not doing him any favors in the article), though it probably has more to do with his frequently mentioned (by other musicians) unwillingness to share profits with bandmates. (This is, of course, industry gossip and doesn't belong in a Wikipedia article unless corroborated first hand. Thus my mentioning it on the Discussion page.)

This reference to "pretending to play bass" should be struck from the article for two reasons - first, suggesting that a bassist of more than a decade of experience in several bands (at the time) was "pretending" to play in the videos and on the album is borderline libelous to her reputation, and second, until the court case is decided and the facts are known (Folkor admits - "I don't know what the truth is"), it is irresponsible to further and promote industry gossip in a Wikipedia article without carefully presenting both sides, which this article patently does not do. To not do so violates Wikipedia's goal of "Neutral POV". If you don't know the truth, state the existence of a controversy, cover the basics, and leave out any conclusions until the court case is decided and the facts are revealed. Strike71 22:35, 27 November 2006 (UTC)

Gothic rock?
The Sisters of Mercy is one of the most influential gothic rock bands, -- does not sound NPOV, Avoid peacock terms David.Monniaux 11:13, 5 Apr 2004 (UTC)
 * How does this sound: The Sisters of Mercy are a gothic rock band who, despite the existence of only three proper studio albums, were largely responsible for changing the sound of early goth rock, bringing in elements of both dance and metal that helped the musical genre widen its appeal. It is worth noting that the band does not consider itself to be "goth". Could even add in something about them spawning countless imitators, perhaps? --Stormie 11:21, Apr 5, 2004 (UTC)


 * In the spirit of 'show, rather than claim' (which is what Avoid peacock terms is all about), we should definitely mention the imitators (some by name, even). Make the change! &mdash;Morven 16:56, 5 Apr 2004 (UTC)


 * every Gothic Rock band in the 80s denied being Goth - don't alienate yourself anf restrict sales to one group of people. I remember in the 80s reading Goth groups saying 'there's no such thing as Goth' every week. Of course the Sisters of Mercy were a gothic band - in fact, for many a time, they were THE gothic band.


 * You're not a proper Goth band until you have denied it in the NME! I thought everyone knew that! Slothie 17:29, 11 January 2007 (UTC)

What about the mention of "Darkwave"? The darker side to New-wave / post punk. Metalosaurus (talk) 20:19, 6 November 2008 (UTC)


 * not a rock band if you don't have a human drummer. k — Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.6.228.145 (talk) 04:27, 22 June 2011 (UTC)

Heavy metal?
Category:Heavy metal musical groups? Can they really be described as metal? &mdash; Lady Lysine Ikinsile 22:07, Jun 18, 2004 (UTC)


 * I was sorta wondering about that one - David Gerard 00:06, 19 Jun 2004 (UTC)


 * Having thought about it, this really makes no sense to me. I've removed the category for now&mdash;if anyone puts it back, please explain why!    &mdash; Lady Lysine Ikinsile 09:53, 2004 Jun 19 (UTC)


 * There might be some argument as to genre, but metal is not one of the contenders, IMO. &mdash;Morven 11:09, Jun 19, 2004 (UTC)


 * Erm. As a bunch of sk*nky g*ths, we find the idea ridiculous. But whoever put it in may find it less so. Wonder if User:Asn is on hand ... - David Gerard 12:48, 19 Jun 2004 (UTC)


 * Heavy metal? I'm not a hardcore goth but I like Sisters, but there's no way I'd call them heavy metal either. New Wave maybe, Alternative maybe (depends on whether "alternative"). If Sisters is heavy metal, then so are U2 and The Cure. -- Dave Farquhar 16:00, 19 Jun 2004 (UTC)


 * I'm wondering what the metal fans would consider them - David Gerard 19:30, 20 Jun 2004 (UTC)


 * I've always heard of the Sisters of Mercy as the prototypical New Wave band. Maybe in Belgium New Wave somehow has a different meaning compared to the rest of the world, as the genre isn't even mentioned in the article. Wouter Lievens 21:22, 4 April 2006 (UTC)


 * They would probably say The Sisters of Mercy sucks, which is fine with me I would not want one of my favorite bands being called a lame "Heavy Metal" band for the life of me.


 * I wouldn't call the band New Wave or Heavy Metal. Vision Thing was a bit metal-ish, but not very. They were very rock-ish, with a good dose of goth rock. I guess maybe "Temple of Love" was a bit New Wave. Hmmm. Folkor 16:20, 5 April 2006 (UTC)


 * Ben Christo is metal as fuck, and anyone who saw their latest tour would have to agree. Rock on! —Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.1.195.105 (talk • contribs) on 22:41, 6 October 2006


 * But I don't that is enough to warrant inclusion of the group in that category. -- Beardo 09:24, 7 October 2006 (UTC)

Wouldn't it be more accurate to describe SoM as Dark Industrial Rock? 71.38.149.203 06:56, 30 May 2007 (UTC)


 * Industrial is a totally different thing. (See Nine Inch Nails, Ministry, Rammstein, Oomph!, they sound nothing similar to Sisters). They're post punk on FALAA, Gothic Rock on Floodland and Gothic/hard rock on Vision Thing, Imho. --78.12.13.121 (talk) 23:02, 4 March 2008 (UTC)

The invention, assignment and discussion of these micro-labels is a stupid and pointless exercise. So much so that it is usually the exclusive preserve of music journalists and record company executives. "New Wave" does, indeed, mean different things in continental Europe and the U.K. "Industrial" does not mean exactly the same thing now that it did in 1988. Early in his career Eldritch described the band's sound as "literally heavy metal" and since then has consistently referred to The Sisters of Mercy as "a rock 'n roll band". His logic is unassailable. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 84.51.188.189 (talk) 16:06, 20 September 2010 (UTC)

A few niggles in vocabulary used
The use of "abused drums" and "subjected audiences to Gimme Gimme Gimme" tends to lead away from the concept of NPOV, it might be little but I thought I'd point it out.
 * I've fixed some (including the two above), but there are still many problems with the article. violet/riga (t) 14:53, 1 Jun 2005 (UTC)

Influences
I've added the Marionettes and Rosetta Stone as bands influenced by tSoM. Fields of the Nephilim also sprint to mind of couse but I have not added them as I am not aware of any comments by any member of the the Nephilim admitting such influence (hence such influence is afaik just my POV). -- JamesYoungman (t) 06:22, 31 Aug 2005 (UTC)

I'm going to change it to "second wave of Gothic rock"... the Rolling Stones article isn't littered with numerous bands who later tried to copy them for example. - Deathrocker 22:45, 21 April 2006 (UTC)

Disambiguation
Problem: both Marionettes and Rosetta Stone point to things other than the band. Are disambiguation pages required? I'm not experienced enough as a contributor to try making one. -- JamesYoungman (t) 06:22, 31 Aug 2005 (UTC)

Also Adam Pearson points to another individual (Adam Pearson is the chairman of Hull City A.F.C.).

Bootlegs
Most artist pages don't mention bootlegs, because there are usually a lot. TSOM are no exception, although I do realize that SBWBM is one of the most widespread. Like the The Smashing Pumpkins page, listing the most common ones is fine. Should we set up a list somewhat like that? Folkor 06:45, 16 February 2006 (UTC)

David Bowie
Shall we mention how much the Sisters of Mercy sound like David Bowie of that era and before? (That's the polite way of saying I'd dare any non-fanatic to tell them apart. Just play This Corrosion for your friends...)  --Mrcolj 14:44, 9 September 2006 (UTC)
 * Its subjective and irrelavent.Cannibaltom 19:14, 11 September 2006 (UTC)
 * Influences and similarities are extremely relevant, and yes, they are subjective, unless the band has mentioned it at some point. It just seems a little like an article on Aerosmith that doesn't mention the Rolling Stones, or an article on Maroon 5 that doesn't mention both Jamiroquai and Stevie Wonder.  Just mooting for science. --Mrcolj 23:11, 12 September 2006 (UTC)
 * If you've got some good external sources to back it up then add it. violet/riga (t) 23:14, 12 September 2006 (UTC)


 * Did Bowie ever work with Jim Steinman ? I don't hear much connection between Bowie and the Sisters myself. -- Beardo 09:25, 7 October 2006 (UTC)


 * I don't hear ANY similarities with Bowie and The Sisters either? --FACT50 21:30, 9 November 2006 (UTC)


 * There's a mention on Answers.com's profile of Mr Eldrich of his influences, and Bowie is one of them (Along with Nick Cave and Mark E Smith) so presumably in one of his interviews he has said as much. The problem is finding which interview! I'll have to flick through some of my old magazines. As for him sounding like Bowie, I seem to recall a lot of bands at the time sounding like Bowie. Bowie was the big star at the time all the post-punk groups where forming; Goth emerged from the melting pot that absorbed Glam-rock, Punk and Metal, and threw out post-punk, Gothic rock and the New Romantics (whose style Bowie both inspired and participated in... have you seen the Ashes-to-ashes video?). Goths where (style-wise) just New Romantics that wore black. It's no coincidence that a load of Goth bands have done covers of Bowie material. Slothie 18:06, 11 January 2007 (UTC)


 * That may make a case for Brian Eno and Tony Visconti more than Bowie. Or Suicide, the Stooges and Hot Chocolate ! Or Dolly Parton and Pink Floyd ? (More seriously - clearly the Stooges were an influence on Bowie - were Suicide ?) -- Beardo 22:08, 11 January 2007 (UTC)


 * Also Bowie and Eldritch both sing in English accents. -- Beardo 04:36, 16 January 2007 (UTC)


 * Don't forget, they are both men. They have alot in common as it is

Eldritch
The article refers to "Eldritch's deteriorating health and psychological problems", but there is no obvious citation for this, and no problems are listed either on Andrew's own wiki page or on the SoM fan wiki. Generally, that doesn't mean anything more than someone forgot to add a link to the source that's given elsewhere on the page, but some sort of link would be good.

I'm also a little uncertain about the issues to do with recording, The SoM official website does imply that one third of an EP had indeed been recorded, although it's not entirely clear when or why they'd have multiple versions of the same song on it, or why the project was abandoned - it's not as if nobody had ever had a variable lineup during recording. Bands haven't even needed all the members to be alive at the time. In other words, more scraps of information exist than are on the wiki page. 71.38.149.203 07:14, 30 May 2007 (UTC)

I don't know about the recording issues, but Eldritch's "health and psychological problems" were occasioned by over-exertion combined with excessive use of amphetamines, leading to exhaustion and malnutrition. It is hardly surprising that the above sources make no mention of it.

A citation would be desirable but it would require someone to dig out a copy of, say, Melody Maker from 1984 or '85. The fact that the author didn't bother is probably due to the matter being so well known among older fans. It is mentioned on the Heartland fan-site and was covered in the glossy supplement on The Sisters of Mercy and The Mission given away with Melody Maker in the Spring of 1990. I believe it was mentioned in the 'Heartland' anthology book but someone else will have to check since my copy was stolen some years ago. In late 1987 or early '88 a 'scrapbook' containing reprints of press cuttings was made available and three of the articles (including the first and the last, as it happens) cover the episode in some detail. Unfortunately, while some of the articles retain their author's bylines, many have had these cropped. All of the headers and footers have been cropped, so no titles or dates. And, frustratingly, the book has no ISBN nor any author/publisher data, which leads me to assume that it was produced by the fan club (?).

The first article relates how Eldritch 'phoned the writer, "...to explain why the long player wouldn't be materialising for a bit after all. "I've been in hospital," he said flatly.  This was alarming.  He'd collapsed in the studio in the middle of the night [...] just exhaustion and not enough to eat." Bear in mind that this was approximately when 'Amphetamine Logic' was written. References to the recent recruitment of Wayne Hussey and the imminent release of 'Walk Away' would date this to the late Summer of 1984 and from the typography I'd say that this was from the N.M.E. or Melody Maker.

The second interview contains an exchange which has been repeated a few times, "The doctor said 'how do you relax?' and I said I don't. He said 'Well, wouldn't you like to be able to relax?' and I said no.  And he said- 'take these.'" This interview was conducted to help promote FALAA, which means March, 1985. That album was originally entitled 'Black October' and was meant to be released to coincide with the tour of the same name (as listed on the 'Walk Away' poster). The postponement was due to Eldritch's being unable to finish recording his vocals in time because of being unwell. Again, I'd say this was from N.M.E. or the 'Maker.

The last, which I'll guess is from Sounds, includes the lines: "He [Eldritch] confirms the rumours of illness, revelling in revealing just what he wants and no more. Just like his songs. "I've got the scars to prove it. There are various views on what happened to me but, naturally, mine's the only one that counts. I think I just started working too hard and, at the end of last summer, my body just said 'No thank you. This has gone far enough. It'll end in tears'. So I've calmed down a bit although... I enjoy it so much, being strung out for a very long time... I'm told you can't do it for *that* long."

Apologies if all this is insufficiently verifiable but, given the subject matter, that should be no surprise. Perhaps someone with more time to spare would like to contact the N.M.E. and ask for reprints?

"Rise and reverberate", Jack Parfitt, Aberystwyth. 91.125.190.25 (talk) 14:53, 13 June 2011 (UTC)

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Cover versions
I've removed the list of cover versions as none of them listed were notable and Wikipedia is not a directory. They also do not define this band. If they should be noted anywhere, it should be on the band covering the songs articles or on the songs articles themselves. -- JD554 (talk) 08:54, 29 November 2007 (UTC)

Dark Wave??
There is no mention of "Dark Wave".

The original true Gothic rock was a side to punk rock which was also originallly called "positive Punk" and was basically punk with a gothic horror theme. popularised by David Vanian of the Damned took his name from Transyvanian.

As Post-Punk came the genre "New-Wave" arose which was influences of punk rock being waterred down with other or more commercial musics. The gothic side to post-punk new wave was called dark wave.

Metalosaurus (talk) 20:27, 6 November 2008 (UTC)

Agreed. Unfortunately, the labels of Dark Wave and Goth eventually came to depart from their punk/wave roots and were heavily undertaken by ethereal/ambient, electronica and even metal style bands. Subsequently, the labels have become less likely to be associated with the early bands (SOM, Bauhaus, The Damned, Siouxsie) who actually originated the style.

Just one thing about New Wave, though. It predates Post-punk I believe. 74.69.64.52 (talk) 22:37, 7 March 2010 (UTC)

New information?
The section on recent activity is at least a year out of date - anybody got anything more recent to add? ~dom Kaos~ (talk) 10:15, 25 January 2010 (UTC)
 * I changed the sentence about 2009 concert dates from future to past tense. Not much news from the Sisters' camp right now -- Foetusized (talk) 11:43, 25 January 2010 (UTC)


 * Nice one ~dom Kaos~ (talk) 12:19, 25 January 2010 (UTC)

Music Videos
I read that the promotional videos for certain songs on the First And Last And Always album and the music video for Black Planet were never released with The Sisters' permission. However I found the Black Planet video on YouTube and it was on VH1 Classic originally. Could they have let them release the videos? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 163.153.43.1 (talk) 13:35, 7 October 2010 (UTC)

What?
The article currently says "Eldritch has revived the band for short tours every year since 1996, aside 2004. ", which doesn't make any sense. I suspect it should say 'except' instead of 'aside'...77.99.98.37 (talk) 11:23, 20 May 2011 (UTC) 125.239.242.27 (talk) he was supposed to be touring australia and new zealand recently, pulled out, anyone know the promoter? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 125.239.242.27 (talk) 15:10, 27 September 2011 (UTC)

1977?
Forgive me for my ignorance if that's what it is but I'd always taken the band's formation to be more like 1980 (principally based on the sleeve notes in SGWBM and Pinnel's Heartland thing)? I am quite happy to be corrected if wrong, hence why I'm using the talk page rather than just editing. Anyone got a source for this? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 92.18.112.163 (talk) 15:41, 12 July 2014 (UTC)

1977 is just bullshit! Eldritch wasn't even in Leeds by then. Just like the various "Disbanded". The Sisters of Mercy were never actively and officially "disbanded"!!! So this is almost slander! — Preceding unsigned comment added by 87.79.152.125 (talk) 03:37, 27 February 2016 (UTC)

1977 its a bad joke!!! The band was formed in 1980!!!! and released the first Single in 1980, first concerts 1981. A big mistake in this article-- — Preceding unsigned comment added by 62.225.162.114 (talk) 10:24, 14 November 2016 (UTC)


 * Changed this now to 1980 using Allmusic.com as a reference. If 1977 is re-instated it will need a proper reference or at least some sort of a discussion here. Karst (talk) 10:45, 14 November 2016 (UTC)