Talk:The Six Wives of Henry VIII (1970 TV series)

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Requested move 18 August 2014

 * The following discussion is an archived discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review. No further edits should be made to this section. 

The result of the move request was: moved. Jenks24 (talk) 12:36, 9 September 2014 (UTC)

The Six Wives of Henry VIII (TV series) → The Six Wives of Henry VIII (BBC TV series) – there's another TV series by this name residing at The Six Wives of Henry VIII (documentary), so this is insufficiently disambiguous WP:NCTV ; both TV series are from the UK. The current title should redirect to The Six Wives of Henry VIII disambiguation page. -- Relisted. DrKiernan (talk) 23:14, 22 August 2014 (UTC) 65.94.169.222 (talk) 05:33, 18 August 2014 (UTC)

Survey

 * Feel free to state your position on the renaming proposal by beginning a new line in this section with  or  , then sign your comment with  . Since polling is not a substitute for discussion, please explain your reasons, taking into account Wikipedia's policy on article titles.


 * Oppose per . — Llywelyn II   08:54, 18 August 2014 (UTC)
 * WP:PRIMARY is about primary sources, it has nothing to do with this request. -- 65.94.169.222 (talk) 00:51, 19 August 2014 (UTC)


 * Oppose per "primary" the current DAB is more than sufficient. MarnetteD&#124;Talk 14:52, 18 August 2014 (UTC)
 * WP:PRIMARYTOPIC does not apply in this case, neither are the primary topic, since neither occupy The Six Wives of Henry VIII; as it is already disambiguated. It however fails WP:PRECISE, it does not specify the topic with sufficient specifity to identify it. The documentary is a TV series, so this title is insufficiently disambiguous, as it does not distinguish it's topic from the other TV show. -- 65.94.169.222 (talk) 00:51, 19 August 2014 (UTC)
 * Primary topic does apply even if you think that it doesn't and a TV series is different from a documentary. MarnetteD&#124;Talk 01:10, 19 August 2014 (UTC)
 * PrimaryTopic doesn't apply because the title of this article carries disambiguation, a de jure and de facto indication that it isn't the primary topic, as primary topics do not carry disambiguation. If this were truly the primary topic, the article would be called "The Six Wives of Henry VIII". Since it doesn't, it's not. Yes, a documentary is different from a TV series. However, a documentary can also be a TV series. The other article, is about a documentary that is a TV series. This article is about a set of plays that is a TV series. Plays are also different from TV series. That doesn't change the fact that the two articles are both about TV series. -- 65.94.169.222 (talk) 04:39, 20 August 2014 (UTC)


 * Comment. FWIW, the TV series gets 47.5 percent of the relevant traffic (7477/(7477+6310+792+ 1178)}, while the documentary gets 7.5 percent (1178/(7477+6310+792+1178)). IMO, 47.5 percent is close enough to 50 percent. The TV series should be promoted to primary topic and the title given without disambiguation. King of all fruit (talk) 11:44, 21 August 2014 (UTC) Sockpuppet investigations/Kauffner
 * Support, obviously; this is a totally routine move. There's no such thing as an already-disambiguated title that's "primary"; at that point, there's just a poorly disambiguated title that's still ambiguous, or a well-disambiguated title.  Primary is what  tell us in the aggregate, and they do not use WP's internal disambiguations! It may well be that the BBC TV series is the most popular usage, right now, but it's almost never a good idea to label as primary one published work with the same title as others, especially if there's a derivational relationship between them (and when there is, it seems it will most often be the original unless it was quite obscure or minor).  — SMcCandlish ☺ ☏ ¢ ≽ʌⱷ҅ᴥⱷʌ≼  13:41, 24 August 2014 (UTC)
 * Support. The purpose of adding the parentheses to the title is to distinguish the article from others with the same name. As there are two TV series, "(TV series)" doesn't do the job. WP:PRIMARYTOPIC doesn't apply here since neither article appears to be the primary topic of the un-disambiguated titled "The Six Wives of Henry VIII".--Cúchullain t/ c 19:09, 1 September 2014 (UTC)
 * The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page or in a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.

Move discussion in progress
There is a move discussion in progress on Talk:The Six Wives of Henry VIII (documentary) which affects this page. Please participate on that page and not in this talk page section. Thank you. —RMCD bot 19:31, 13 January 2019 (UTC)

Cast list
I am not sure that listing Valentine Palmer as Lord Willoughby and Mollie Sugden as Lotte, handmaid to Anne of Cleves is worth the inclusion here. They both are only in one episode and in neither instance to they play a particularly large role. There are actors who are in multiple episodes - for instance Basil Dignam as Stephen Gardiner - who are not included in this list Dunarc (talk) 20:50, 30 March 2023 (UTC)
 * Does it have to be one or the other? Why not just expand the list. I think it's kinda interesting that Mollie Sugden was in it. DeCausa (talk) 21:42, 30 March 2023 (UTC)
 * I take your point, but my only worry would be that including some one episode actors is it can give a misleading idea of to the importance of their characters in the series. One way around this might be to mention them in the specific episode synopsis, rather than the cast section? Dunarc (talk) 19:43, 31 March 2023 (UTC)
 * Just to note Elvi Hale and Angela Pleasance are one episode actors. Noting actors - no matter how many episodes they are in - is not misleading IMO. MarnetteD&#124;Talk 20:36, 31 March 2023 (UTC)
 * Thanks - that is a fair point (though Angela Pleasance is credited in Anne of Cleves as well as Catherine Howard, though I don't think she actually speaks in the former) and it is also true of Annette Crosby and Rosalie Crutchley. I suppose the difference is they do have starring at the start of the episodes where they play the title character. If we are expanding other one episode players who might be included would be Robert James as Robert Barnes as he plays a major role in the Anne of Cleves episode and Catherine Lacey who has a significant role as the Dowager Duchess of Norfolk in the Catherine Howard episode. Also I would be inclined to add Sheila Burrell as Lady Rochford as she is in three episodes, playing a major role in two of them. Happy to go with others thoughts on this. Dunarc (talk) 20:58, 31 March 2023 (UTC)
 * Thanks for starting this discussion . Please be bold and add the names you mention. Ms Burrell definitely gives one of the memorable performances in the series. MarnetteD&#124;Talk 23:53, 31 March 2023 (UTC)
 * Thanks - I have gone ahead and made additions. Dunarc (talk) 19:17, 1 April 2023 (UTC)
 * Just to note I have changed the Lord Willoughby link. It previously linked to the article for the title Baron Willoughby of Parham, but the character in the Catherine of Aragon episode is William Willoughby, 11th Baron Willoughby de Eresby as he shown to be the husband of María de Salinas. Also the dates would not fit with one of the Baron Willoughbys of Parham as that title was not created until 1547, well after the events of the episode. Dunarc (talk) 20:46, 7 April 2023 (UTC)
 * Dunarc, thanks from making the additions. But where are you getting the info from? The article is quite short of citations and it would be good to add some WP:RS referencing. DeCausa (talk) 20:50, 7 April 2023 (UTC)
 * From the credits on the recent BBC 4 repeats. They should be listed in the Radio Times at the time of broadcast, so I will try to see if I can track the original listings down and cite them. Dunarc (talk) 22:49, 7 April 2023 (UTC)

Related section in infobox - should The Shadow of the Tower be added?
At the moment this only lists Elizabeth R, but it is mentioned elsewhere in the article that "There was also a prequel The Shadow of the Tower" so I wonder if that series should be added. I am a bit hesitant as The Shadow of the Tower's links are less clear-cut than Elizabeth R's. While the latter's first episode picks up not long after The Six Wives of Henry VIII  left off (and shares some characters played by the same actors), The Shadow of the Tower does not feature any characters played by the same actors and indeed it's final episode and the opening episode of The Six Wives of  Henry VIII partly cover the same ground, but depict events differently. The format is also different being a 13 episode series as opposed to six distinct plays. I wonder what others think about this. Dunarc (talk) 20:46, 11 April 2023 (UTC)
 * I have never heard of it being a prequel to the other two series. Per so much on WikiP I think it comes down to sourcing. Unless a source can be provided that TSotT was produced as a prequel the item about the connection should be removed. Mention in a "see also" might work. MarnetteD&#124;Talk 22:13, 11 April 2023 (UTC)
 * Thanks - I'll do a bit of digging to see if there is a source at the time that would support the claim. Dunarc (talk) 22:39, 11 April 2023 (UTC)
 * One or two local newspapers at the time of its first broadcast seem to make a connection that it follows own from the two earlier series, but in the sense that the BBC was again making a Tudor based historical drama rather than explicitly saying it is a spin-off. Likewise The Stage in 1972 mentioned Rosemary Anne Sisson writing for all three series, but as it mentioned some of her other TV work in the same article I don't think this is evidence of a significant connection. Thus so far I have found nothing concrete.  Dunarc (talk) 20:47, 13 April 2023 (UTC)
 * Thank you for the time and effort you are putting into this {{u|Dunarc|}. I would lean towards removing the item in the other article. It could be put in a footnote if another editor thinks it is important. MarnetteD&#124;Talk 00:10, 14 April 2023 (UTC)