Talk:The Sound of Drums/Archive 1

John Simm?
Is he definitely, 100% going to be in this episode? If so, then fine; if not, then should he be removed from the cast list?--NP Chilla 03:00, 28 February 2007 (UTC)


 * I think someone's jumping the gun on that — I don't think it's been officially confirmed. I'll remove it. —Josiah Rowe (talk • contribs) 04:54, 28 February 2007 (UTC)


 * My bad — apparently he's been spotted on set. I'll leave it up for now, but someone should provide a citation. —Josiah Rowe (talk • contribs) 04:56, 28 February 2007 (UTC)

I have changed John Simm to playing Mr. Saxon since we don't know if he is playing The Master. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 81.153.219.112 (talk • contribs)


 * Yes, we don't actually know that he's playing Mr. Saxon, or if Mr. Saxon is even a character (as opposed to a codename, for example).--Rambutan (talk) 13:14, 28 February 2007 (UTC)

Upon reflection, I've copied a lot of the cited stories from the tabloids from List of Doctor Who serials to this page. The tabloid sources all indicate that the Master will be appearing in the series finale, therefore in this story (and probably this episode). I think that we're OK as long as we indicate which casting is confirmed (via DWM) and which is unconfirmed and sourced from the tabloids. —Josiah Rowe (talk • contribs) 02:27, 4 March 2007 (UTC)

Did John Simm not play a character in Doctor Who before?
 * Nope, you're thinking of Life on Mars. Guy in a leather jacket, travelling in time, Manchester accent, character called Tyler... nothing like Doctor Who lol


 * My personal recollection is that John Simm was briefly trailed to appear in a Doctor Who episode last year as "Sam Tyler" (presumably some kind of tie-in with Life on Mars). Apparently plans were swiftly changed and it vanished and if anything was actually filmed it didn't make a broadcast episode.  There may be something about this in the history of one of our articles about the 2006 season of Doctor Who.  Now this is all from my memory, and memories are notoriously unreliable.  You have been warned. --Tony Sidaway 02:56, 12 May 2007 (UTC)


 * You know, "Sam Tyler" is an anagram of "Masterly". I think I'm onto something :P Sceptre 03:29, 12 May 2007 (UTC)


 * Just when I thought I imagined the above, I found this thread on Usenet. There could be all kinds of reasons for this--maybe someone entered Simm's name into that imdb entry (since removed) as a joke.  The episode was Doomsday, which is set partly in the alternative universe, so it isn't inconceivable. --Tony Sidaway 03:40, 12 May 2007 (UTC)
 * Just when I thought I imagined the above, I found this thread on Usenet. There could be all kinds of reasons for this--maybe someone entered Simm's name into that imdb entry (since removed) as a joke.  The episode was Doomsday, which is set partly in the alternative universe, so it isn't inconceivable. --Tony Sidaway 03:40, 12 May 2007 (UTC)

200th story
An IP posted "It is also the 200th Story of Doctor Who Since the First Episode" on the article. I removed this, just so we can check precisely what it means, how to phrase it, and - more importantly - if it's true. On the list of serials, it's number 192, but it depends on one's definition of "story", "episode" and "serial".--Rambutan (talk) 17:33, 12 March 2007 (UTC)
 * Good idea since it would be the 736th episode and the 192nd serial anyway, this would have been a stupid comment. --Wiggstar69 15:27, 13 March 2007 (UTC)
 * If you include Shada, count the TV movie as one and every episode of the revived series as one episode, then it is the 200th story, I think. It still shouldn't be in though because then you'd have to count the Hartnell stories as individual episodes and Wikipedia defines each two-parter of the revived series as one story. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 82.32.48.236 (talk) 05:08, 15 March 2007 (UTC).
 * I'm going to wait until it comes out of RTD's (or other reliable sources) mouths until we right anyting, for me the next big date will be the 800th episode, but that will be a while --Wiggstar69 11:42, 15 March 2007 (UTC)
 * 750th will be the next big one surely?

Mr. Saxon/The Master
I think that given how consistently The Sun has been printing stories saying that Simm will be playing the Master, we can list him as such in the article (as long as we make it clear that this is based on tabloid reporting, and has not been confirmed by any official source). However, I think that we shouldn't list him as "Mr. Saxon", because I don't think that reliable sources have indicated that yet. Do others agree? —Josiah Rowe (talk • contribs) 03:32, 17 March 2007 (UTC)
 * I'm very much against listing him as the Master, as a source is either reliable or it isn't, and the Sun is most definitely not. If you recall the "Ice Warrior" story? And the "Rani"? Sure, the law of averages says that one in every twenty so will statistically be correct, but this doesn't make it reliable.


 * Now, I personally think that he will be both the Master and Mr Saxon, but - when I think about it - that's only based on rumours I heard here and on OG. So if the Sun had just made it up, that negates everything else - and it's perfectly possible that they did.--Rambutan (talk) 08:01, 17 March 2007 (UTC)


 * I believe its true, I also beleive that until a more reliable source the the sun comments on this its a bad idea to put it on this wikipedia page. --Wiggstar69 16:05, 17 March 2007 (UTC)


 * Well, despite the Rani thing, the Sun actually has a pretty good track record with Doctor Who spoilers: they reported the Dalek/Cybermen battle at the end of Series 2 in something like December 2005. We also have the Independent article, and Simm's Life on Mars costars appearing to confirm the casting on Soccer AM, so that's two more sources.  On the other hand, if folks really feel strongly that we shouldn't list him as the Master in the cast section, I won't object to someone removing the name for now. —Josiah Rowe (talk • contribs) 07:03, 18 March 2007 (UTC)

The problem is, the Sun is known for simply making stories up (for example, at Xmas there was the "Tennant leaving in S4" business). It's sadly easy to believe that the costars, having read the story in the Sun or elsewhere, thought they'd have a laugh and make something more up. Unless we're declaring the Sun a reliable source, it ain't a reliable source!--Rambutan (talk) 09:36, 18 March 2007 (UTC)


 * I agree, a reliable source has to be somthing that is never wrong.--Wiggstar69 09:39, 18 March 2007 (UTC)

Yes unless something has been confirmed by the BBC. We should not take the tabloid press's word that John will be playing either Mr Saxon or the Master. It will be more likely that the characters confirmation will be revealed closer towards the final episodes and even then it will probably just confirm that he is playing Mr Saxon. —Preceding unsigned comment added by MrWez (talk • contribs)

its slightly confirmed if you turn mister. saxon into master no. six, and if he is the master, he would be the 6th to play him! --click here 13:47, 6 June 2007 (UTC)
 * Which, if true, is the most pointless anagram ever, since he wouldn't be the sixth master. Gwinva 13:56, 6 June 2007 (UTC)


 * He's not he master at all, he'll probably be the Meddling Monk, in which case the anogram is not an anogram, but makes perfect sense :) James Random (if you wanna know why, go to Last of the Time Lords discussion, i posted something about it on there.

John Simm confirmed by BBC!!
Here we are, then - John Simm IS playing the enigmatic Mr Saxon and we will learn more about him throughout the season - how enriching!! - NP Chilla 00:26, 23 March 2007 (UTC)

Doctor Who Official Website Says Theres Another Time Lord
In the "Fear Forecast" section: (39) At long last: "So that's his secret! Oh, I thought he was going to say 'I am your father'. Harry: "I thought he was going to say 'I am now dead!'. But," he continues excitedly, "the secret is that there's another Time Lord!" The BBC wouldn't post that unless it was true. So is Mr. Saxon the Master? I think it's pretty safe to say he is.
 * It isn't - it's not confirmed. Also, I don't think Fear Forecast is reliable either. Will (I hope they cannot see, I AM THE GREAT DESTROYER!) 21:41, 14 April 2007 (UTC)
 * Fear Forecast is the responses of a group of kids to the show, its not the BBC's own statement. Tphi 01:36, 15 April 2007 (UTC)

The master regenereated last episode, and the quote wasn't in fear forcast... not speculating but if that quote was from this episode....you figure it out--Poodleman 05:41, 17 June 2007 (UTC)

"He's ancient and forever. He burns at the centre of time and can see the turn of the universe..."
Errr... this is from the end of the red button trailer, right? Said while pictures of the Doctor are seen? So why has someone decided it's about Mr Saxon? U-Mos 16:14, 15 April 2007 (UTC)
 * It was, I think, Saxon saying it about the Doctor (from a standpoint looking at the character, it sounds like something Saxon would say, and it sounds similar to Simm). Will (I hope they cannot see, I AM THE GREAT DESTROYER!) 20:08, 15 April 2007 (UTC)

If it has not been broadcast anywhere else, it should be removed as it is not in any way definitely Saxon - I actually don't think it's John Simm, but the person who says "we are the family of blood" in the same trailer. U-Mos 15:34, 16 April 2007 (UTC)
 * I don't think it's the FoB guy myself. By the way, we don't really know if the screen on the page for Blink is actually from Blink (I know it's been mentioned multiple times on OG it could be from TSoD/LoTL). I'm not arguing about the quote in this reply, just saying that we could all have it mixed up :) Will (I hope they cannot see, I AM THE GREAT DESTROYER!) 21:30, 16 April 2007 (UTC)

OK, I'me replacing the quote with just "Mr Saxon", as it is in no way certainly Mr Saxon saying it. U-Mos 15:26, 17 April 2007 (UTC)
 * Someone's changed it back again, but I'm still uncertain. Personally, though, I think the article picture should be changed to that awesome shot from the TLE trailer of Saxon in an oxygen mask while the rest of the Cabinet are slumped unconscious - drumming his fingers on the table (it's mentioned in the Cast Notes on Last of the Time Lords, which suggests it's the meaning behind this episode's title, and thus would be very appropriate). 217.44.118.112 08:44, 6 May 2007 (UTC)
 * It's not only back here, but some joker's added similar stuff to a Saxon picture on the Last of the Time Lords article too. Kelvingreen 19:11, 6 May 2007 (UTC)


 * The Doctor and the Master are mortal. The only person who matches that description to any degree is Captain Jack.  --Tony Sidaway 05:53, 17 June 2007 (UTC)

This is a quote wayy back from When Rose was still in it - at the moment when she absorbed the time vortex, IN The Parting Of The Ways 84.67.18.50 22:01, 21 June 2007 (UTC)
 * Erm... no it isn't?--Rambutan (talk) 07:06, 22 June 2007 (UTC)

I believe the quote is from the end of The family of blood, At the end of the episode while the voice of "Son of Mine" is narrating the terrible revenge the Doctor took on his family, this is how he describes the Doctor. 83.104.138.141 15:53, 24 June 2007 (UTC)

"The Sound of Drums" is a quote?
I'm pretty sure that "the sound of drums" is part of a quotation. Does anyone recognise it? The closest I've come so far is a Henry Wadsworth Longfellow poem called The Belfry of Bruges:
 * Then the sound of drums aroused me. The awakened city's roar
 * Chased the phantoms I had summoned back into their graves once more.

Any ideas? Kelvingreen 14:10, 17 April 2007 (UTC)
 * Given the spoilers, it sounds very appropriate. After seeing the preview this week, would it be possible to use for the article picture a screencap from the preview of Saxon drumming his fingers on the table? --MessengerAtLWU (talk | contribs) 21:42, 6 May 2007 (UTC)
 * The Sound of Drums is a reference to the double heartbeat of a timelord - Saxon/the Master —Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.137.84.135 (talk • contribs)
 * No it isn't. That's not confirmed.--Rambutan (talk) 07:09, 11 May 2007 (UTC)
 * I'm not suggesting you add it to the page, i'm just stating it :)


 * Yes I thought it might be a quote from the Longfellow poem. It'll be interesting to see if there is a connection. --Tony Sidaway 12:34, 11 May 2007 (UTC)

The sound of drums is also from the lord of the rings. When the goblins and trolls are attacking the fellowship in balins tomb. I will remain anonymous. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.136.3.254 (talk • contribs)


 * In the episode Utopia, the Professor hears the sound of drums... JustIgnoreMe 18:45, 16 June 2007 (UTC)

Rani?
Im sure I read somewhere that someone from Eastenders will play the Rani. Whether or not this is true is something else.--Totoro99 18:42, 17 April 2007 (UTC)

The Sun is deeply unreliable. This has been debunked (theres a link to the page in The Rani's article(Black Dalek 19:43, 17 April 2007 (UTC)).

Trap?
The page says a trap set in the Lazerious experiment is going to unfold, whats this mean? and is it sourced?--Wiggstar69 19:58, 29 April 2007 (UTC)
 * Yes, it's sourced. It was part of Russel Davies' official episode guide to the new series in the Radio Times. The Lazarus Experiment kicks off an arc in which someone is laying a trap for the Doctor. We apparently find out who that is in this episode. Kelvingreen 12:04, 1 May 2007 (UTC)

Removal of the picture
Please see the discussion on Talk:Last of the Time Lords for discussion on removing the images from the 5 May trailer from these articles. Briefly, this is because they don't appear to conform to the Non-free content criteria. --Tony Sidaway 00:42, 8 May 2007 (UTC)

Speculation on casting
The speculation on casting seems to rely on broad tabloid hints that Mr Saxon, played by John Simm, may be the Master. I've removed this poorly sourced material. This is an encyclopedia, not a vehicle of the yellow press. --Tony Sidaway 12:41, 11 May 2007 (UTC)

Elize Du Toit
There is a quote under the cast list that says "This is the second time this series that Elize Du Toit has portrayed a character this series. Maybe a returning villian?" But I see no record of her ever being part of Doctor Who before and it can't be referencing "Last of the Timelords" because that follows this one
 * She's playing "Sinister Woman" in 42. Will (We're flying the flag all over the world) 11:57, 16 May 2007 (UTC)
 * The sinister woman is the same charicter as the one she plays in this episode, although when credited they come under different names.--Wiggstar69 12:38, 24 May 2007 (UTC)

Proof?
part of the storyline has been declaired on the page, is there anything from a reliable source to back it up?--Wiggstar69 20:43, 1 June 2007 (UTC)


 * You mean the Synopsis? It appears to be closely based on the BBC press release which was mistakenly released earlier today.  It's since been removed from the site. I don't know that that can count as a good source as yet.  Mark H Wilkinson 21:24, 1 June 2007 (UTC)


 * It doesn't, IMO - like the flashforward spoiler, we can't be sure what any online site says about the finale other than the BBC site, even if it turns out to be true, and even if it actually has been leaked. Will (talk) 12:59, 2 June 2007 (UTC)


 * Actually, if OG get it, it's also reliable. Will (talk) 14:37, 2 June 2007 (UTC)

Future picture
If, after the episode has aired, and the footage of Saxon tapping the table is from this episode, can we have it for the main picture?(84.68.75.45 15:58, 10 June 2007 (UTC)).


 * NO --MrClaxson 18:24, 11 June 2007 (UTC)

Mr Claxson, please see WP:CIV, and then consider whether or not saying NO was constructive to building an encyclopedia.--Rambutan (talk) 12:31, 13 June 2007 (UTC)

interesting promotional photo description
one person who has seen the BBC promo photos for this episode describes: "John Simm holding a sonic screwdriver" TaraLivesOn 06:03, 15 June 2007 (UTC)
 * Again, we should really wait until freema-agyeman.com, david-tennant.com, Outpost Gallifrey, or BBC have the stills. Will (talk) 06:14, 15 June 2007 (UTC)
 * An image resembling Saxon pointing such a device has now appeared at the end of the Confidential for Utopia, though the device seems to be emitting a yellow/red light instead of the Doctor's typical blue and may be a weapon vs. a tool TaraLivesOn 22:22, 17 June 2007 (UTC)


 * Chances are that the device is the Master's signature weapon, his Tissue Compression Eliminator. It makes sense, considering how the weapon is the counterpoint to the Doctor's sonic screwdriver and how similar and yet slightly different the devices look. Bronzethumb 12:04, 18 June 2007 (UTC)Bronzethumb


 * The Radio Times talks about Simm's character having a "laser screwdriver", but without confirmation that the pic is indeed of it, there's no point putting it in the article. Laïka  13:27, 19 June 2007 (UTC)

Image
MrClaxson, I've noted on the image page why your rationale is unreasonable, and also, there is no source that the image appears in this episode (the trailer probably covered the whole of Last of the Time Lords as well). Until you provide a valid rationale and a source, I've got to continue removing it - and the three-revert-rule makes an exception of removing copyright violations.--Rambutan (talk) 10:02, 17 June 2007 (UTC)


 * All due respect, the majority of the images used for these episode pages are decorative and should be removed. You are very stubborn when it comes to these pages, you behave as if they belong to you. How on earth is anyone to make contributions if they have to pass your approval first.--MrClaxson 10:09, 17 June 2007 (UTC)

I've replied on the image-page .--Rambutan (talk) 10:12, 17 June 2007 (UTC)


 * I have replied here.--MrClaxson 10:26, 17 June 2007 (UTC)

Me too .--Rambutan (talk) 10:28, 17 June 2007 (UTC)


 * And again, here.--MrClaxson 10:43, 17 June 2007 (UTC)

And me.--Rambutan (talk) 10:44, 17 June 2007 (UTC)


 * For the last time,here.--MrClaxson 10:55, 17 June 2007 (UTC)

NB:- image in question is now deleted for copyright violation.--Rambutan (talk) 07:09, 18 June 2007 (UTC)

Wester Drumlins
I noticed that there is a small link here in this amd "the sound of drums". It's probably not significant at all and I'm just being slightly strange, but has anyone else noticed this? Gammondog 12:37, 17 June 2007 (UTC)
 * What are you talking about?--Rambutan (talk) 12:39, 17 June 2007 (UTC)
 * "The episode focuses upon Sally Sparrow, who breaks into a dilapidated house called Wester Drumlins to take photographs" - I'm guessing you are reffering to the house? It could be some kind of in joke, a coincidence or something significant which we'll fibd out about. I can't find anything though that refers Wester Drumlins to any episode other than Blink though. Andrewjd 20:19, 17 June 2007 (UTC)
 * Wester Drumlins was named after a place that writer Steven Moffat had lived in. It could just be a coincidence but there is still a mystery surrounding the "ArchAngel", so whether or not this episode ties with "Blink" is only speculatory at the moment.--MrClaxson 18:01, 20 June 2007 (UTC)
 * How do you know that?--Rambutan (talk) 18:02, 20 June 2007 (UTC)
 * "Wester Drumlins was named after a place that writer Steven Moffat had lived in." If you are refering to this statement, then it's on the Blink wikipedia page and it is sourced.--MrClaxson 19:00, 20 June 2007 (UTC)
 * Also, "Drumlins" are long, low hills formed by glaciers. They have nothing to do with drums. -- Karen | Talk | contribs 22:48, 24 June 2007 (UTC)

A note/warning on guest appearances in Sound of Drums
Some TV listings are including McFly, Sharon Osbourne and Ann Widdecombe in their cast list for this episode. I can't find more substantial references on this, but I expect we'll see them added (and re-added) to the cast list over this week. Anyone have a proper source on this? Mark H Wilkinson 12:16, 18 June 2007 (UTC)
 * No, there's no "proper source", at least until RT comes out tomorrow? Are they to be reverted on sight, then?--Rambutan (talk) 12:17, 18 June 2007 (UTC)
 * Well, that's kind of why I opened this section. My own inclination would be to revert, but that got another article fully protected last time, so I thought I'd see what other people's approach would be.  Mark H Wilkinson 12:23, 18 June 2007 (UTC)

It shouldn't get fully protected unless there's a dispute, and it's only a dispute of both sides clearly have something to say for themselves. Unsourced information that is not incontrivertably (sp?) true is not allowed. Simple as that.--Rambutan (talk) 12:25, 18 June 2007 (UTC)
 * It's in the RadioTimes, with "Sharon Osbourne - Herself", "McFly - Themselves" and "Ann Widdecombe - Herself". RT is pretty reliable for Doctor Who stuff, so I've added them with source, and updated some of the TBAs in the list. Laïka  13:24, 19 June 2007 (UTC)
 * Ann Widdecombe? So the Slitheen are back.


 * I'll get me coat...


 * --Tony Sidaway 18:55, 21 June 2007 (UTC)
 * They are also in a trailer linked to from the BBC Dr Who web page. Eamacnaghten. Wed Jun 20 14:12:37 UTC 2007
 * But are they not only going to be in the trailer? The footage in the trailer looks like it was filmed especially for the trailer to promote the episode using "celebrities", but I suppose we will have to trust the RT on this one ... The andyman 0 09:46, 21 June 2007 (UTC)
 * They are listed in the credits on the episode fact file. So it's likely that they will appear, even if it is just the spoof political broadcast shown on a television in the background they should still be credited here if the BBC credit them.--MrClaxson 10:23, 21 June 2007 (UTC)

Do the Cybermen count as guests ;) - according to http://www.bbc.co.uk/doctorwho/episodes/2007/fear/f-12-pre.shtml they are in this episode. The andyman 0 11:41, 21 June 2007 (UTC)
 * We can't possibly use that ambiguous comment (note what's said by the other child) as a reliable source that the Cybermen are returning. Let's wait for the episode on that one.  Mark H Wilkinson 11:44, 21 June 2007 (UTC)
 * Yes, as the comment is made after the "The kids all tap ominously", suggesting it might be comment on the similarities to the mask worn by Mr Saxon (from the trailer) and the mask worn by John Lumic in the Rise of the Cybermen.--MrClaxson 12:25, 21 June 2007 (UTC)
 * Don't forget that Saxon/the Master taps on the table while wearing the mask (from the LE trailer) Will (talk) 12:47, 21 June 2007 (UTC)
 * If the Cybermen are back, its unlikely the Beeb would let it slip like that, when thus far it doesn't seem to have leaked Tphi 13:29, 21 June 2007 (UTC)
 * Agreed the fact that they are mentioned on this page suggests to me that their involvement will be no more than a fleeting flashback or a cameo similar to their appearance in Dalek (Doctor Who episode). Kelpin 13:40, 21 June 2007 (UTC)

I might be able to shine some light: last night on BBC1 after Question Time a newscast style advert came on with Anne Widdecombe, McFly etc all saying 'Vote Saxon'. I am guessing this will be featured in the episode and is being used as an advert for the final episodes. Andrewjd 19:27, 22 June 2007 (UTC)

Edit: nvm--83.217.170.161 13:51, 23 June 2007 (UTC)