Talk:The Star-Spangled Banner/Archive 1

SSB as poem deserves all stanzas, as an anthem only the first
This article is about the poem SSB and while may mention the use of its first stanza as the national anthem of the USA, the article needs the entire poem. John wesley 13:25, 15 May 2006 (UTC)

Any one read the recent new york times magazine, "Year in ideas?" They mentioned the congressional bill that would lower the official key of the national anthem. Currently its in the key of b flat, which is why it can sound quite atrocious when many people try to sing it.
 * Yeah, I heard that guy on the radio as well, I think we should definitely include it.--Pharos 07:23, 21 Dec 2004 (UTC)
 * Please yes. &mdash;Casey J. Morris 01:14, July 12, 2005 (UTC)
 * I don't really think it matters; singers sing it in whatever key is most comfortable for them. MusicMaker5376 09:19, 7 March 2006 (UTC)

I have removed a very large amount of text added by 62.211.221.103 on Oct 5 (which he marked as a minor edit) on the grounds that it may be a copyright violation. The original text can be found here. Though the site is called "Get Free Reports", I was unable to find a statement that clarifies that these texts can be freely copied and used elsewhere. The copyright notice found at the bottom of the page, as well as this page seem to indicate that texts could indeed be copyrighted, but I'm not certain. Does anyone else know about this site?

If 62.211.221.103 reads this, could he please clarify whether the text is free for us to use (or if he is "John A. Carpenter", the original writer). However, even if we can use the text, it will still require some NPOVing. Scipius 09:16 Oct 13, 2002 (UTC) -

On October 1, 2003 Carltonwilliams added a phrase to an already existing sentence in the article to make it read "When sung in public (before major sporting events, for example) verses after the first are typically omitted since they are considered a bit bloodthirsty and slighly (sic) racist." (Italicized phrase is addition.) I removed the addition, in part for POV reasons and in part because I felt this was a false statement.

PMelvilleAustin has edited it so the sentence in question now reads "When sung in public (before major sporting events, for example) verses after the first are typically omitted, partly for brevity and partly because the latter verses are downplayed in modern times because of their theme which some have declared to be milltaristic and racist."

I feel that is slightly less POV, but is still false. The second verse is never sung, but is no less "miltaristic" than the first, which is sung. (The second verse answers the question asked by the first: Is the flag still there? - Yes) I fail to see racism in the entire song (It is after all about the defense of a fort by Americans, who were mostly of European descent, against the British navy, who were almost entirely of European descent.) It is definitely nationalistic, it is, after all a national anthem. I can see that there may be other interpretations.

However, the negative interpretations of the song have nothing to do with only the first verse being sung in public. The first verse is the only verse sung because Americans never sing in chorus from memory anything but the first verse of ANY song. Pop songs, Christmas carols, nursery rhymes, patriotic songs, hymns, you name it: we sing only the first verse, or sometimes just the chorus. If you want more - you have to give us the words. Singing only the first verse at sporting events dates to at least the 1950's and probably before. That is, the practice dates to a time before any sensitivities about militarism or racism would have been at play.

For these reasons, I am removing the phrase. David Stapleton 04:30, Nov 26, 2003 (UTC)

Thanks mate - NPOV to me means you should still talk about that issue in the article - and show why it is false - not delete it entirely

PMA 04:37, Nov 26, 2003 (UTC) - I have no problem with a discussion of the song's various interpretations and if someone adds one I would probably contribute. My point is that nobody says "I don't think we should sing that third verse, you know too much 'havoc of war" in it." Most Americans reaction would be "Oh, I didn't know there was a third verse. Hell I didn't know there was a second verse." To say that Americans don't sing versed 2 through 4 because of any interpretation is, in my opinion, false and does not belong in an encyclopedia article.  Nor do I think that every false assertion needs to be refuted in the text of the article. David Stapleton 05:05, Nov 26, 2003 (UTC)

... I think what amuses much of the world is the number of Mercans apparently unaware there's a first verse, judging by the number we've seen on telly that are wholly solemnly patriotically hat-over-heart lost by "rocket's red glare". 142.177.126.164 15:54, 25 May 2004 (UTC)


 * To be fair (I'm gonna go out on a limb and guess that that wasn't your primary concern anyway) the phenomenon noted (that many "Americans" seem unable to perform the entire first stanza) would indicate not that they don't know that there IS a first verse, but that they do not know, by heart, the entirety of that first verse.


 * Then again, you know us crazy Yankee Mercans.... always jingoistic and ignorant... --Dante Alighieri | Talk 23:49, Aug 30, 2004 (UTC)


 * Until I was about 12 I was convinced it was "rock gets red glare." But seriously, I hardly think this is particular to Americans.  Ask a Brit to sing the entirety of God Save the Queen.  I think there's something in there about "crushing Scots" if you get far enough.--Mncuso 04:28, 7 Nov 2004 (UTC)

What was the previous anthem??
"The Defence of Fort McHenry", set to the tune of an English drinking song "To Anacreon in Heaven", was re-branded "The Star-Spangled Banner" and was officially adopted by Congress in 1931. Prior thereto, most Americans reputedly regarded "America" as the national anthem -- but as that song used the same tune as "God Save the King", it was never considered for official use. (The anthem "America" is more commonly known by its first line: "My country, 'tis of thee ...")  Many Americans prefer "America, the Beautiful" to the "Star-Spangled Banner", but as one writer notes below, American governments generally avoid trying to direct our culture into a particular direction (because it never works out as they plan it) but they wait until there is at least a critical mass of popular support behind something before officially adopting it. For example, the "Pledge of Allegiance" was written in 1892 but not formally recognised by Congress until 1942, and it wasn't until 1954 that it was legally mandated for children to recite it in public schools -- where it had been voluntarily recited since October 1892.

BTW, an interesting use of the SSB appears in Puccini's opera *Madama Butterfly*, written in 1904. During the wedding scene, a few bars of the anthem are played at the end of this bit sung by Goro (originally in Italian, of course):

It is granted by those here present Benjamin Franklin Pinkerton, a first lieutenant Serving on the gunboat Lincoln A ship of the United States of North America (orchestra plays the bars that correspond to "by the dawn's early light")

209.247.23.143 14:53, 7 October 2007 (UTC)


 * The date the SSB was officially designated the National Anthem of the USA often turns up in reference works. But before then, was there an official anthem, and if so, what was it?  If not, what would have been played on appropriate occasions?  JackofOz 06:11, 16 Sep 2004 (UTC)
 * There was no official anthem before, I've gotta look up what they played.--Pharos 07:23, 21 Dec 2004 (UTC)
 * In my researchings as an anthematologist (don't bother looking it up in Wiki, us strange folk whose hobby is studying and dissecting the national anthems of the world don't have a name, I made that one up to use) I've noticed that the songs Hail Columbia, Yankee Doodle, and the Star Spangled Banner were used interchangeably as unofficial anthems (keep in mind, I'm speaking of the pre-1931 codification period), I usually give a slight edge to "Hail Columbia" as the official unofficial predecessor in terms of popularity and official useage. See my website for more information here and here.--Canuckguy 18:42, 22 September 2005 (UTC)
 * There was no official anthem before SSB was adopted. However, before, Hail Columbia was used as the US anthem in the same case as English is used in the USA (i.e. not official, but everyone is expected to accept it as such). People began singing SSB more in more, and finally Herbert Hoover signed a law making it the official anthem. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 209.6.243.42 (talk) 00:20, 15 April 2008 (UTC)


 * In the Jan. 18, 1950 episode of "You Bet Your Life," Groucho Marx's long-running quiz show, Hail Columbia is cited as SSB"s predecessor. While not an official proclamation, it was the $1,000 question at the end of the show, which certainly suggests that Columbia was publicly accepted as an anthem, to say the least. -- A. (talk) 18:06, 18 August 2009 (UTC)

The Banner was the de facto anthem long before it became official. We don't make things official in this country until someone thinks it's important. That's why there is still no official national language, even though English is the de facto national language... but there has been a push (not a very strong one so far) to make English the official language before somebody tries to make Spanish an official second language... which is getting close to a de facto reality. Wahkeenah 20:04, 6 August 2005 (UTC) - Removed link within quoted text of the American national anthem that was pointing to the stub of an irrelevant b-grade movie. Im all for cross referencing, but they give out awards for things dumber than this. --Oomafk 4 July 2005 12:29 (UTC) - "Because it is the most explicitly anti-British verse (and also fairly gory), the third is virtually never sung."
 * Um...The second and fourth are also virtually never sung either. -- Jwinters | Talk 5 July 2005 18:44 (UTC)

The fourth verse was sung in the Mormon Tabernacle Choir's version. I've heard multiple verses sung in special concerts. Obviously, only the first verse is sung at baseball games and other important events. On those rare occasions when more than the first verse is sung, sometimes the second verse is skipped because, as some sources have put it, "It no longer reflects the American attitude toward the British." Foul footsteps' pollution, and all that sort of thing. Wahkeenah 5 July 2005 20:47 (UTC)

Fourth stanza
Then conquer we must, when our cause it is just, As far as I know there are some versions where this becomes Then conquer we must, for our cause it is just, which one is correct? Is the "for" version also accepted? -Hmib 17:39, 6 August 2005 (UTC)

Not that I know of. The fourth verse is seldom sung anyway... and the Mormon Tabernacle Choir version says "when". Wahkeenah 19:57, 6 August 2005 (UTC)


 * Interesting revelation: Using google a search the exact words "then conquer we must, for our cause it is just" turns up 706 references, cf. 5200~ for the correct one (when our cause it is just). Meaning in every eight instances one is wrong. The two, though only a word different, is a world apart. Tsk tsk. The very essence of this great poem has been massacred... A sad day. Oh, say does that star-spangled banner yet wave, o'er the land of the free and the home of the brave? -Hmib 09:17, 7 August 2005 (UTC)

I'm not surprised. I wonder, though, how many of those 706 references actually collapse to a handful of sources (for example, searching for something that you know is specific in Wikipedia often turns up identical info on other sites that have referenced Wikipedia - hopefully with proper credit). You're right, it totally changes the significance of the phraseology. The original assumes (perhaps naively) that we would not go to war without lengthy discussion and debate (and prayer, theoretically). The alteration presupposes that we are "inherently" right to go to war whenever we feel like, because we are "God's chosen people" and thus we just naturally make the right decision, without even having to think about it. As one who considers himself a patriotic and traditional American in the best sense, I find the latter view offensive in the extreme... and all too close to modern reality. But maybe I'm getting old and old-fashioned. >:( Wahkeenah 09:51, 7 August 2005 (UTC)

Another editorial comment: On 9/11/01, one of the worst days Americans have ever had to suffer, I was already feeling like this would lead to erosion of our precious freedoms by certain American politicians who hate freedom. And we are witnessing it. In the days after 9/11, when the anthem and "God Bless America" were being played ad infinitum, another tune was running through my head: Paul Simon's Vietnam-era song, "American Tune", which contains the phrase, "But it's all right, it's all right; you can't be forever blessed." Wahkeenah 09:55, 7 August 2005 (UTC)


 * I wonder which version the government sponsored programme teaches... :X Anyone care to do a little searching? -Hmib 23:20, 7 August 2005 (UTC)

When I was in school, decades ago, only the first verse was ever sung or discussed. I think they are more hung up on the Pledge of Allegiance than the Anthem, since nobody can sing the bloody thing anyway. >:( Wahkeenah 23:33, 7 August 2005 (UTC)


 * Perhaps because SSB does not specifically mention the USA? You know, without knowing the story of how it was written, it wouldn't be incredulously difficult to believe it was written for, some other star spangled banners...

Just kidding really. Anyone has a link to anything official about the government programme to teach the anthem to the kids? -Hmib 23:56, 7 August 2005 (UTC)

Here are a couple of sites under the .gov umbrella which are geared for kids and which say "when", not "for". I can't determine when the "for" started to show up. Google indicates several sites where they are both used in the same description, like they were just blindly copying from someplace else and paid no attention. I even found a site that said "when for our cause it is just", which throws out yet another meaning, namely that we must conquer when it's in our best interests, which actually states the case truthfully. :) Wahkeenah 00:16, 8 August 2005 (UTC)
 * 
 * 


 * I think this is more serious than I had thought. Many of the sites with the "for" version are .edu sites... and .edu sites are supposed to be a repository of history and knowledge... not revionist tamperings! >:( Even the Norsk wikipedia (Norwegian?) got it wrong... Even everything2 has got it wrong! (This is good anti-e2 propaganda, btw, hehe.) Still trying to find a wrong government source. I dunno, but I seem to be wanting to prove something... -Hmib 05:39, 8 August 2005 (UTC)

Misinformation is like a virus. Once it starts, it multiplies. In some sense, this is like an urban legend. I wonder if any of the urban legend websites have anything about this? And I wonder if only you and I care very much? Speaking of ignorance, I'm not sure what you mean specifically by "e2". Wahkeenah 11:27, 8 August 2005 (UTC)


 * E2? E2 is everything2, a wikipedia ripoff! Well it's supposed to be reviewed first before anything gets published, so technically it should be more accurate. Yes I think not many people care about this, which is very sad... -Hmib 16:18, 8 August 2005 (UTC)


 * Actually, the original incarnation of E2 surfaced three years /before/ Wikipedia :P And nothing is reviewed before publishing, nor is anything guaranteed accurate. Go read the article. Cammy 20:35, 11 October 2006 (UTC)

It seems fairly obvious on Key's handwritten copy that the word is "when" and not "for".

There is another instance of the fourth verse. About 35 or so years ago, at sign-off time (which was usually about 1230AM to 1AM), a local PBS station would always play the Star Spangled Banner just before it left the air for the night. For quite a while, the rendition they played/showed was of a female guitar player playing, unaccompanied, the SSB in 4/4 time, while singing the 4th verse. The rate was about 100 beats per minute. This is where I learned the 4th verse; and in fact, usually whenever I sing the song, I still sing the 4th verse. 147.240.236.9 22:28, 3 March 2006 (UTC)

I once sang a "concert" version of the anthem that included two verses: the well-known first verse and a newly-written second verse. In addition, the second verse was in 4/4 and not in 3. I still have the sheet music somewhere; here it is: Wait. The second verse is copyrighted -- can I post it on a talk page? Anyway, it was apparently written by Claire Cloninger, copyright 1986, for the 100th anniversary of the Statue of Liberty. Frankly, it's not that great. MusicMaker5376 09:09, 7 March 2006 (UTC)

Isaac Asimov
seems to have gotten the lyrics wrong. I'm not sure if that's his speech verbatim, or if a typist typed the wrong word in. Given the fact that almost no one knows the 4th stanza, I would say Asimov wasn't really as familiar with the anthem as he thought he was. --Miborovsky 20:14, 24 September 2005 (UTC)

That's a fair cop. I can't speak for Asimov (nor can he, as went to join the Great Silent Majority some years ago), but I've see that erroneous "for our cause it is just" (instead of when) in a lot of websites. As with many Internet "information viruses", i.e. erroneous info that gets replicated over many sites that parrot such info without researching it, it is very difficult if not impossible to track down the original source. Wahkeenah 21:33, 24 September 2005 (UTC)
 * Yeah I know. It's just another rant added to all the rants I made above. :D --Miborovsky [[Image:Namechop.jpg|20px]] 19:23, 25 September 2005 (UTC)

They may be rants, but they are good rants. :) Wahkeenah 19:43, 25 September 2005 (UTC)
 * Indeed. But you and I seem to be only people concerned about this. And by God, I'm not even American. --Miborovsky [[Image:Namechop.jpg|20px]] 00:42, 26 September 2005 (UTC)

I see. You used to be user hMib. I'm guessing all this Russian-sounding stuff is a front. You're probably Irish... County O'Pinsk, da? Wahkeenah 00:51, 26 September 2005 (UTC)
 * Hm, took you long enough to realise that. :D And no, I'm not Irish, and neither is this "Russian-sounding stuff" a front. --Miborovsky [[Image:Namechop.jpg|20px]] 02:56, 26 September 2005 (UTC)

*Why* is this the national anthem? :-)
"By Congressional resolution signed by President Herbert Hoover, "The Star-Spangled Banner" was adopted as the national anthem of the United States on March 3, 1931."


 * Yeah, ok, but *why* did Hoover sign it? --Ihope127 17:15, 16 August 2005 (UTC)


 * Why did Key call the flag a star spangled banner? In all seriousness we don't know. -

Poetic reasons I suspect: "Star Spangled" is nicely alliterative and the three words all have long A's- the line is full of A's in fact: Say, That, Star, Spangled. Banner, Wave, Brave. Key was not a great poet but he did the best he could.--Saxophobia 19:41, 13 July 2006 (UTC)

Francis Scott Key was a very good poet stop insulting him! —Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.116.180.169 (talk) 20:56, 16 October 2008 (UTC)

Hmib 17:51, 16 August 2005 (UTC)


 * A "spangle" is a small glittery object, such as a star, sewn onto cloth. Circus performers wear spangles, for example.  In the case of the flag, Key was being poetic.  The stars on the union portion of the flag (there were 15 stars at that time) seemed to glitter and shine "at the morning's first beam", in his mind's eye. Wahkeenah 20:07, 16 August 2005 (UTC)


 * Ugh, bad example. OK. -Hmib 22:04, 16 August 2005 (UTC)


 * It was the de facto national anthem long before it became official. Just as English is the de facto national language, although it has never been made so by government decree, only by custom. Wahkeenah 20:07, 16 August 2005 (UTC)


 * Okay. Why was it the de facto anthem? :-) (Please don't answer. I am an idiot).

I've seen talk pages a lot bigger than this one. I take it you're not really wanting an answer, you're just being funny. :) However, obviously, it caught the fancy of the people for whatever reason. Why is the Marsellaise the French anthem, for that matter? Wahkeenah 04:47, 18 August 2005 (UTC)


 * This talk page is nothing... I'm sure there are more extreme examples out there but check out Talk:Nanking Massacre, which has 2 archives and at lest 5 times as massive as this. -Hmib 08:27, 18 August 2005 (UTC)

Name of the country not mentioned
The page used to say:


 * The song is known as one of the few national anthems that does not mention the name of the home country.

However, that is either erroneous or misleading. Many national anthems do not mention the name of the country. Many of those are anthems that most people probably aren't familiar with of nations that most people probably aren't familiar with. However, there are many that people don't think about when they state this misleading or erroneous fact that also don't have the name of the country in the lyrics. Sticking only to countries which might not be considered obscure, we have:

Israel, United Kingdom, Turkey, Japan, Iraq, and of course, wordless anthems like Spain's.

Not a huge list (I only stuck to countries that the average person would have heard of, and to an open definition of "country's name appearing in the lyrics", some, like France have the nation's name appearing in verses that are not normally sung as the anthem, some, like Mexico do not mention the country's name but mention the adjectival form (i. e. "Mexicans")), but I hope that this list proves that The Star Spangled Banner isn't alone in that claim. The song has a lot of unique features to it, adding false or misleading ones don't help. :) --Canuckguy 00:47, 23 September 2005 (UTC)

You would be just as well off removing it altogether. It's one of those bogus Internet trivia "facts" with no supporting evidence, on the same level as the claim that a duck's quack does not echo, or that there is no Betty Rubble in Flintstone vitamins. FYI, "God Save the Queen" does mention "Britain"... in the 5th verse. Since many countries' anthems say "us" or "our" or variations, and most everyone who sings it knows which country they're singing about, stating that in the lyrics seems kind of redundant, yes? Wahkeenah 01:02, 23 September 2005 (UTC)

I'd suspect that setting "United states" to music is quite a challenge. WHPratt (talk) 17:19, 21 May 2009 (UTC)

American Patriot Videos (from my talk page)
Here they are, converted into ogg theora, free as in beer and speech :)  Jmax- 17:03, 27 January 2006 (UTC)
 * Yay! I owe you one. User:Zscout370 (Return Fire) Fair use policy 23:57, 27 January 2006 (UTC)


 * Very nice. Great voice, although he seems to hav trouble with the lowest note. :-) —Preceding unsigned comment added by 77.40.128.194 (talk) 17:34, 14 March 2008 (UTC)

HMS Minden?
The article states "...set sail from Baltimore aboard the sloop HMS Minden...", but the article for HMS Minden says this is not true. Which article is correct? --69.161.146.61 04:18, 18 February 2006 (UTC)
 * Not sure. I did not edit that part of the article. User:Zscout370 (Return Fire) Fair use policy 04:25, 18 February 2006 (UTC)
 * According to the book, The Flag, the Poet and the Song, by Irvin Molotsky, 2001, Key himself cited the Minden in a letter years later. However, the author also says there is significant doubt about this fact, falling short of bluntly saying that Key's memory was faulty. Wahkeenah 10:59, 18 February 2006 (UTC)

Believe it or Not!
Due to a problematic scanner, I was not able to upload and place a drawing of Ripley's Believe it or Not! cartoon, November 3, 1929. I placed a until I am able to add a picture of the cartoon later. 66.134.206.66 21:57, 3 March 2006 (UTC)

Key?
it is mentioned in passing that the original key is G-major, which would be easier to sing. So what key is it supposed to be sung in? Why would the key be prescribed in the first place? It would be great to have this clarified. Thanks!!! 24.82.175.172 09:38, 7 March 2006 (UTC)
 * It is possible that key changes may have been made as needed—for example, if an instrument could not go as low as G, then the next note (A♭, A, B♭, B, etc.) would have been used—although I will admit, B♭, B, and C Major are rather high keys to sing in! ;) —CliffHarris &lt;-T|C-&gt; 02:30, 8 March 2006 (UTC)
 * It does mention that the original key is G-Major, while the scan of the first printing clearly shows C-Major. Any clarification there? Furthermore, Bb thru C is high for the untrained masses, sure, but most soloists have no problem with those keys.  The article also states that people have no trouble singing it in G, but that would go too low (G below the clef) for a lot of people.   MusicMaker5376 23:28, 11 March 2006 (UTC)
 * Hmmm, C Major is a bit high, and while B♭ Major is not as high, to some (such as tenors) it may be fine, but to basses too high; same with sopranos and altos. In my personal opinion, I think A Major is the ideal key to sing it in: the basses and the altos are fine especially in the beginning (even though perhaps it is a high strech in the middle), and the sopranos and tenors are fine in the middle, though it be a low note in the beginning. I can sing it fine all the way from F Major to D♭ Major, so I don't particularly care what key it is in between those. For everyone else—such as those untrained masses you spoke of—A Major would seem to be the ideal key. Any other music-related banter may be carried on at my talk page if desired, if the discussion is still on The Star-Spangled Banner, post it in either place. —CliffHarris (-T|C-) 01:57, 19 March 2006 (UTC)


 * I have an arrangement in A♭. The soprano line ranges from A♭4 to E♭5 (incidentally, that's an octave and a perfect fifth, which is a half step larger than an octave and a half as cited in the article).  It's a pretty hard range for any untrained voice, honestly. I'm an untrained alto and I'd have to be very in voice to hit an E♭5 well. (A♭4's are any day of the week for me.) Untrained, true sopranos migh have a hard time on A♭4, though, and scooting it down a half step won't help (although it'd help me, since I can hit a D5 decently, but I think my range is a little bit lower than average).  There are three of these low notes: "say," "stripes," and "streaming." (How often does it sound like someone runs out of breath at the end of the "were so gallantly streaming?" line because they can't sing that low?)


 * Transposing it probably won't fix the range problem for untrained singers (and truly, I think it's best performed by trained singers, although we should all sing (or struggle through) the anthem). In fact, when singing the anthem a cappella I usually sing about the rockets' red glare an octave lower than it's written. If you have a 3-4 octave range (like my father, for example, who has studied voice for 20+ years), the anthem really isn't a problem. But then transposing it to a "more singable key" isn't an issue for someone with a 3-4 (or anything over 2, really) octave range.  In my opinion, there isn't a 13th that's comfortable for most untrained singers.


 * Interestingly enough, the tenor line ranges from A♭3 to E♭4, while the bass goes from A♭3 to C4 and the alto ranges from A♭4 to C5 (an octave and a major third).


 * Another incidental: it's probably disrespectful to sing the national anthem in a minor key, since it was written in a major key. I realize that's not an issue here, but the "major" part goes without saying; it's the default. If it's in "A♭," then it's most likely "A♭ Major." Just my two bits. (Well, I guess it looks more like my two bucks.) JordeeBec 22:42, 27 April 2006 (UTC)


 * I find it impossible to understand what you mean here. There is no "major part" as the whole song is in major. Has the song been played in minor? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 77.40.128.194 (talk) 17:57, 14 March 2008 (UTC)

The wide range of the melody makes it extremely difficult to sing, and nearly impossible for amateur bands or orchestras to play in melodic unison because comfortable instrument ranges are limited and do not always overlap. Try to find a key in which the entire school band can play the melody in unison: Bb won't work for oboes or horns very well. C is lousy for alto saxes, Eb can't be played by trumpets without either having a high-C embouchure or playing the high parts down an octave. F is terrible for all brass instruments other than the horn. Even if the players could play all the notes in one given key, a lot of the notes would be on the extreme end of the instrument's range, making it sound squirrely and very likely out of tune.

I think G major is perfect for untrained unison crowds. Soloists and band/orchestra can use B-flat, or even C. But the question I have is which key is most appropriate for a French horn ensemble? With 3 or 4 parts, I think you could use anything from low Bb to high Bb (concert pitch). The key of C, written in G, would have a darker solid sound to it while a high key like A or Bb would make for some pretty squirrely high notes on the "rocket's red glare". Concert F or Eb major would take the written part up to G or F, which would make for a dramatic but reasonable high note. Any ideas out there?


 * It seems patently obvious to me that the best key to play the SSB in is "Francis Scott" Key. :)  JackofOz 04:47, 30 November 2006 (UTC)

Bush singing national anthem in spanish
Um does anyone really believe this? I've never heard Bush sing, much less in Spanish. And any fluent speaker who's ever heard him stumble through a few basic expressions would probably feel the same way. I think it's safe to remove the drudge report citation, and for once we can actually believe Scott McLellan: http://www.cnn.com/2006/POLITICS/05/04/bush.spanish.ap/index.html

Not too long ago, someone in California translated the SSB into Spanish, recorded it, and gave it to numerous radio stations for airplay. When it took off, there was a HUGE controversy. Many people were angry, stating that the SSB should only be sung in English. Many conservative columnists wrote angry columns in response to the airplay. In fact, this deserves a seperate section in the main article about the SSB. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 74.223.82.114 (talk) 21:03, 5 June 2009 (UTC)

I don't really know what I'm doing!
But what does Spangled mean?

This isn't vandalism, it's serious question.
 * 1 a small piece of bright metal, esp. any of a number of these sewn on fabric for decoration
 * 2 any small, bright object that glitters Tbjablin 01:13, 11 May 2006 (UTC)

Performances and adaptations section
Is anyone in agreement with my thinking thinking that this section is slightly silly in its set up - surely 90% of this should be in the "main" article, Performances and adaptations of The Star-Spangled Banner. That article only has one short paragraph in it, which should probably make up the majority of the section in this one! Thoughts anyone? Poobarb 00:01, 29 June 2006 (UTC)
 * and i believe the section should then also mention Jimi Hendrix' rendition? —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 81.191.50.77 (talk) 00:32, 3 March 2007 (UTC).

Jimi Hendrix's rendition was not mentioned until I saw your comment. It should be not only mentioned, but in the context that the "The Star Spangled Banner" represents the American people foremost, even as it represents the idea and the country as a united idea, that it is not even mentioned is wrong. Not only is this version necessary, it also represents the close of an era, and not withstanding the fact the song goes on for each generation thereafter, many of those whose anthem it was then, the Viet Nam vets, the end of the 60's-70's naivety, the birth of the modern suburban America, that this is a generation, unlike the World War II generation that is forever indelibly etched in our conscience spiritually as the greatest modern generation, that the tumultuous late 60's 70's generation is fast fading both physically and spiritually from our current conscientiousness. We must endeavor in our consideration that each and every generation of Americans are important and each have there own "totems", if I may. Potent each generations was, indeed, in that we are still standing, united and strong by virtue of each and every generation as it passes. We are not a "one" single thing standing in the great halls of time, we are a passing season by season, dependent on the past for the future, so should the past be be honored by the present. Get it up there please. ellison847@yahoo.com —Preceding unsigned comment added by 68.88.97.71 (talk) 05:20, 30 September 2007 (UTC)

The Origin if the Tune
Should there not be some explanation of the fact that this anthem is sung to the same tune as 'God Save the Queen'? Surely relevant considering that this was the mother country that American nationalists was seeking to distinguish herself from? Boldymumbles 20:31, 8 July 2006 (UTC)
 * The Star-Spangled Banner is sung to the tune of To Anacreon in Heaven. God Save the South is indeed sung to God Save the Queen. --  Миборовский  02:44, 9 July 2006 (UTC)
 * I suspect the OP was referring to My Country, 'Tis of Thee --Davecampbell 22:36, 16 August 2006 (UTC)

Quite frankly, God Save the South is not sung to the tune of God Save the Queen, but sung to its own tune, instead. I already found out what The Star-Spangled Banner and God Save the Queen have in common: Both anthems were in 3/4 time, and yes, the tune of The Star-Spangled Banner was borrowed from the British drinking song To Anacreon in Heaven, and the tune of God Save the Queen was used for America (or My Country, 'Tis of Thee), one of our nations secondary patriotic songs. Of course, the United States is one of the few countries that gain independence from the United Kingdom, because our three national flag colors, red, white and blue , are the same as Britain's. Unlike the U.K., the U.S. isn't a Commonwealth country, and neither does the Republic of Ireland. Don-Don 20:02, 13 September 2006 (UTC)

Who wrote the tune? Smith or McKeague?
The following article from the Irish Daily Telegraph, Friday, January 7 1944, page 3 (the original newspaper is in the National Library of Ireland in Dublin) was supplied by Raymond McKeague of Co. Fermanagh, a descendant of William McKeague of Tully, Co. Fermanagh, who was a Bandsman in the 8th Inniskilling Regiment about 1750.

Co. Fermanagh’s Claim To “The Star Spangled Banner”

Oh, say can you see by the dawn’s early light,

What proudly we hailed at the twilight’s last gleaming -

Whose broad stripes and bright stars through the perilous fight,

O’er the ramparts we watched were so gallantly streaming?

And the rocket’s red glare, the bombs bursting in air,

Gave proof through the night that our flag was still there;

Oh, say, does that Star-Spangled banner yet wave,

O’er the land of the free and the home of the brave?

SAM HENRY, well-known Ulster author, has made a close investigation of the story that the tune of “The Star Spangled Banner” was written by an Ulsterman about 1750 as a march for the Inniskillings. Here he gives the result of his inquiries.

One feels a new co-patriotism with our cousins across the Atlantic when, at our cinemas, the programmes are opened with the Star-Spangled Banner on the screen, followed by the Union Jack, as a fraternal gesture to our guests.

A flag is but a bit of cloth, yet men will die to save its honour. The origin of a song that beckons men to battle is of special interest, and, strange to say, our greatest songs are often wrapped in obscurity: yea, stranger still that the accepted origin, universally accredited should be proved to be wrong, or open to serious doubt.

So it is with the U.S. National Anthem “The Star Spangled Banner.” Its history was written up exhaustively, and it was thought, conclusively, in 1914 by Oscar George Theodore Sonneck, music librarian in the Library of Congress, Washington, including every available detail about the tune and song, in a treatise of 116 closely printed pages.

Sonneck attributed the tune to John Stafford Smith, (son of the organist of Gloucester Cathedral) who was born in 1750. Smith was, like myself, a musical antiquary, who sought out ancient compositions and gave them a modern setting. On May 14, 1799, he entered as a glee the tune of the “Star-Spangled Banner” under the title “To Anacreon in Heaven.”

He did not claim copyright of the melody, which with the words is first found in the Edinburgh Musical Miscellany in 1788. The words were by Ralph Tomlinson.

Kidson, our great authority on folk music, failed to locate any melody resembling that of the Anacreontic song. W. J. Gordon, author of “Our Country’s Flags," categorically states that it was composed for the flute - but of that, more anon.

Anacreontic clubs were the fashion then and classical doggerel was sung at their gatherings. Even Tom Moore made a fool of himself by publishing a whole book of Anacreontic verse. The great Dr. Johnson and even Dean Swift deigned to attend these clubs. John Stafford Smith made his glee for a club which met in the Crown and Anchor tavern in the Strand. It ceased to function in 1794.

The origin was accepted in good faith until about two years ago when a little manuscript music book turned up in the Sutro branch of the Californian State Library. It was found to contain the tune of the “Star-Spangled Banner” under the title “The Royal Inniskillings.” On the fly leaf is the name of the then owner of the book, the inscription being - “William Brown, lying at Romford in 1798.”  Romford is in Essex and close to London.

~

From inquiry in the Army Records Office it transpires that William Brown was an officer in the 6th Battalion of the Inniskillings, having previously been a trumpeter in the band. He enlisted in April 1798. He was of the Browns of Moybrone in the Parish of Mullaghdun, Co. Fermanagh.

Here was an intriguing tangle to unravel, and only after twelve months of intense research have I re-wound the clue.

As a result of advertising in the public Press of Tyrone and Fermanagh an authority on the music matter was discovered in the person of Edward David Kerr, J.P., O.B.E. of Carrickreagh, Enniskillen, a gentleman of cyclopaedic knowledge and with a flair for local history. Mr. Kerr was local leader of the Ulster Volunteers in 1912-4. The Kerrs and allied families have been in the district for three centuries. They have always been people of culture, especially in music.

Fifty years ago, when Eddie Kerr (as he is known) was a boy of 14, he listened to his father, his aunts, his uncles, and chiefly to his grandmother, discussing the tune in question, and the old lady remarked “That’s the tune the Americans pinched for their national anthem.”

My interview with Mr. Kerr set me going and I have left no stone unturned to clear up the hidden origin of this world-famous song. Mine host, in his home at Carrickreagh that overlooks the choicest beauties of Lough Erne, told me that the tune was composed about 1750 by Bandsman William M'Keag, a native of Tully, as a march for his battalion, (the 8th) of the Inniskillings and that a song had been written for the tune by another Inniskillinger, David Fowler, of Drummenaghbeg, in the parish of Innishmacsaint, Co. Fermanagh.

Let us now digress in order to find the contributory facts that establish the origin of the National Anthem of the U.S.

On July 31, 1689, the family of Crichton (ancestors of the Earl of Erne) were beseiged in their castle at Crom (where grows the largest yew in Ireland) by the Jacobite forces, retreating after their defeat at Derry and Enniskillen. In response to an urgent message, infantry of the Inniskillings came by water from Belleek and Colonel Wolseley’s cavalry went overland by Newtownbutler. Topping a hill that commanded a view of Crom, one of the horsemen called out:

Oh, say, do you see it?

The flag of ould England, and long may it wave,

O'er the champions of freedom and the homes of the brave.

The beginning of the American National Anthem and the succeeding lines:

Oh, say, does that star-spangled banner yet wave

O’er the land of the free and the home of the brave?''

The flag on Crom castle was the cross of St. George - the banner of England.

The tune of the Star-Spangled Banner has no national affinities. It is an individualistic composition and I assert that William M'Keag was that individual.

But how did the tune get to London and how to the Great West?

Clearly the 8th Battalion adopted M'Keag’s tune as their march and when that regiment was in the London neighbourhood (Romford or elsewhere) it must have been played in public and caught the fancy (among others) of John Stafford Smith who wed it to the words by Tomlinson.

And now the story develops:

In May, 1798, under General Humbert, the French invaded Ireland at Killala, Co Mayo. Fermanagh Farmers and their sons rushed off to resist the invader and defend their homes. The 8th Battalion of the Inniskillings defected from the ranks and rushed off to aid their fathers and brothers in the fight against the invader. The troops were dismissed and it was not until 1858 that the prestige of the battalion was restored. The dismissed Inniskillingers emigrated to Boston and were known there as the “Killala lads.” Every Protestant soldier from Glenawley barony was a “Killala lad.”

These misjudged soldiers took their march tune with them, and I am sure it cured their nostalgia to sing or whistle it in their exile. Soon the tune was wedded to a patriotic ballad entitled “Adams and Liberty” from John Adams, who was elected to the Presidential chair in 1796. The words were by Tom Paine, the celebrated author of “The Age of Reason,” who fought the liberty campaign for the American colonists, with the pen if not with the sword.

The ballad was first published in the “American Vocal Companion” in 1798.

Sixteen years later (in 1814) a young lawyer of Baltimore, Francis Scott Key, then aged 35, who had boarded a British ship in Chesapeake Bay to plead for the release of a friend (a prisoner with the British), had perforce to witness an attack on his own city.

In the morning, after the battle, when the two compatriots came on deck, they looked anxiously to see which way the battle had gone, and to their joy the flag floated over Fort McHenry, and Key was inspired to write (on the back of an envelope) the immortal song beginning:

Oh, say can you see by the dawn’s early light

What proudly we hailed at the Twilight’s last gleaming.''

which he completed later, nobly ending it

And the Star-Spangled banner in triumph shall wave

O’er the land of the free and the home of the brave.

Curiously enough, in another Anacreontic song, contemporaneous with “To Anacreon in Heaven,” occurs the phrase “star-spangled lustre.”

Francis Scott Key may have had links with Enniskillen that gave him the tune. The Keys family of Bellinaleck, near Enniskillen, had a worthy scion, Captain Francis Keys, stationed at Pettigo on June 15, 1799.

~

As to the flag, Betsy Ross, who designed it must have had some friend who knew the heraldry of the Washingtons, for the stars are the same five-pointed stars as on the blazon of the Washingtons of Sulgrave Manor, Northampton, an old family who had moved from Lancashire to Northampton to follow the woollen trade. In the official flag of Northern Ireland the stars are six-pointed. The stripes in the American flag alternate red and white, as in the Washington design.

In this investigation many hares crossed my track; obdurate historians who would not believe although “Abraham rose from the dead”; or who regard the want of the full facts as equivalent to proving the contrary. Specially did it take some time to run to earth a statement by Dr. W. R. Grattan Flood that Carolan was the composer an inference that Dr. Flood made because he fancied a resemblance in the tune to Carolan’s “Bumpers, Squire Jones.” Donal O’Sullivan, formerly Clerk to the Senate of Eire, whose broadcast on Bunting delighted us recently, is an authority on Irish music, and writes me “The suggestion that the Star-Spangled Banner” was written by Carolan (with whose melodic idiom I am familiar) or is even remotely derived from one of his compositions is completely grotesque”.

To complete the story would take much more space. You may say that some of the evidence is on hearsay. Well, as an old shepherd on the slopes of Slieveanorra said to me when I questioned his story of the decisive battle there in 1569 when the M'Donnells knocked out the MacQuillans, “Isn’t it hearsay that God Himself walked this earth.”

Certain it is that Edward David Kerr is convinced of the truth of the story related above, and I, as investigator, have found the account to be feasible, consistent and far outweighing the probability of a song of a convivial club, defunct in 1794, in England, then at war with her colony, having been made the basis of their National Anthem.

Inniskillings and Americans now fight side by side and their flags kiss in the Italian breeze:

May the flags of both nations continue to wave

O’er the land of the free and the home of the brave.

143.117.161.50 12:26, 6 November 2006 (UTC) R. M. McKeag can be contacted at R.McKeag@qub.ac.uk


 * Should anyone wish to discuss this article, please note that, since retiring from the Queen's University of Belfast, my email address has changed from R.McKeag@qub.ac.uk to Michael.McKeag@gmail.com. 95.144.101.208 (talk) 00:54, 1 November 2022 (UTC)

Jose Feliciano
anyone got his 68 version? Happily ever after 15:33, 25 November 2006 (UTC)
 * Not sure if I have it. User:Zscout370 (Return Fire) 18:27, 25 November 2006 (UTC)

Quote marks
This article has an interesting mix of curly-quotes (“”) and straight quotes (""). Does anyone mind if I just change them all to straight? --Wayne Miller 20:12, 1 February 2007 (UTC)
 * No problems with me. User:Zscout370 (Return Fire) 16:34, 2 February 2007 (UTC)
 * So done. --Wayne Miller 20:18, 4 February 2007 (UTC)
 * If you need to do it again later, your welcome to. I am hoping to clean this article up, but this is going to be a toughie. User:Zscout370 (Return Fire) 20:50, 4 February 2007 (UTC)

Line Missing in Lyric
The Lyric is missing the sixth line in the fourth stanza.

The fourth Stanza should read:

Oh! thus be it ever, when freemen shall stand

Between their loved homes and the war’s desolation,

Blest with vict’ry and peace, may the Heav’n-rescued land

Praise the Pow’r that hath made and preserved us a nation!

Then conquer we must, when our cause it is just,

And this be our motto: "In God is our trust."

And the star-spangled banner in triumph shall wave

O’er the land of the free and the home of the brave.

And this be our motto: "In God is our trust." has been left out in the article. Can you please add it. --Danprem 16:28, 2 February 2007 (UTC)
 * Added, thanks. User:Zscout370 (Return Fire) 16:34, 2 February 2007 (UTC)

Someone has tried to vandalize the lyrics section. I've tried to restore the original lyrics of the anthem.
 * The restoration went alright; so someone went Fergalicious on us. It happens a lot on the article, which is one of the reasons why it takes a while to figure out what needs fixing and not. User:Zscout370 (Return Fire) 16:40, 21 February 2007 (UTC)

Satire Section?
Does this article really need a "Satire" section composed entirely of a quote from a Kurt Vonnegut novel? Unless, it's put in context in a larger section with some explanation it just seems kind of random and weird. -- Grandpafootsoldier 03:44, 4 February 2007 (UTC)
 * I think it can be removed. Unless we add sections of nothing but anthem satire, then it does seem a bit out of place. But with everyone and their second cousin perhaps having a parody of the US anthem, the "satire " section would be just a monster to contain. User:Zscout370 (Return Fire) 03:50, 4 February 2007 (UTC)

Jose Feliciano paragraph plagiarized?
I noticed that the paragraph about Jose Feliciano has been plagiarized nearly word-for-word from one of the sources listed at the end of the article: http://www.infoplease.com/spot/starmangledbanner.html However, this is not the reference given for that paragraph. I suggest making that paragraph blockquote or completely rewriting it from the actual referenced source. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 198.45.18.28 (talk) 21:12, 7 February 2007 (UTC).
 * I checked and I do not see the plagiarism, but it could also be my eyes just waking up at 8:43 in the morning. I'll check later. User:Zscout370 (Return Fire) 16:43, 21 February 2007 (UTC)

Michle?
Under the heading History > Early History, the second paragraph says "Because Key and Michle Skinner..." - why does it say "Michle?" I've never seen the word before. It is a district in Prague, but I did a search and didn't find any other meaning for it. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 72.187.185.79 (talk) 03:34, 23 March 2007 (UTC).

Star Spangled Banner Sheet Music For Multiple Instruments
The only real sheet music links I see on the main article are for a piano arrangement. That may be helpful to some, but there are many more instruments out there than simply piano, and transposing is a difficult task for non-musicians. I would like to suggest adding the following resource which contains PDF files of the melody only for all common band instruments including voice. This is not a harmonized arrangement, but a simple transcription of the main melody of the song.

Star Spangled Banner Sheet Music For All Common Band Instruments

--MaestroC 04:46, 13 May 2007 (UTC)
 * Thanks for the link, however, my concern is this: I am not sure if many folks would want to download a plugin or other software to just view the sheet music for other instruments. If your connected to the website, is there a way that you can supply us images of the sheet music and we can host them here? User:Zscout370 (Return Fire) 05:00, 13 May 2007 (UTC)

Whose weapons?
I frequently hear complaints that Verse 1 is "militaristic" because it talks about bombs and rockets. The critics apparently think that bombs and rockets were American weapons and that Key was boasting about military firepower. But according to the Asimov article cited earlier, the aerial bombs and rockets (which were very hi-tech in 1812) were the British weapons; Key was simply celebrating that they failed. I thought this deserved a mention.

By the way, the range of "Deutschland uber alles" is nearly an octave and a half as well (C to F if sung in the key of F). So the SSB's range problem is not unique. CharlesTheBold 05:08, 7 June 2007 (UTC)


 * The context of the lyrics make it pretty clear, that basically despite all this violence going down, "the flag was still there." In that context, I doubt Key was referring to his astonishment (or pride) at having the American flag survive an assault by American firepower, but lasting through the British bombardment. tdpatriots12 06:22, 16 July 2007 (UTC)


 * If people have major problems with the first verse, boy, have them look at the third verse. We're shedding the blood of the enemy and sending them to the "gloom of the grave." But I haven't see anyone make that charge in public yet on a major scale. User:Zscout370 (Return Fire) 06:34, 16 July 2007 (UTC)
 * People didn't mince words in those days. I have sometimes read that the third verse is no longer sung because "it no longer reflects the American attitude toward the British". Actually, the same attitude is expressed in the more-recent song "Battle of New Orleans", except that song is not a serious candidate for the National Anthem. :) Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? 10:40, 11 March 2008 (UTC)


 * The range of the Norwegian national anthem "Ja, vi elsker dette landet" is as large as the German too, but with no well-established optional "sub-voice" like the American one has in the difficult part. On the other hand, it seems to be rather common to jump up to the second octave in the climax of SSB. It is funny to think of that the melody is originally a drinking song. People probably did the extreme tonal height versions more often at that time. ;-) —Preceding unsigned comment added by 77.40.128.194 (talk) 10:11, 11 March 2008 (UTC)

Translations
Is the inclusion of the Samoan lyrics really necessary?Illinois2011 07:39, 7 July 2007 (UTC)
 * I removed it, but the translation section should be tidied up, IMHO. User:Zscout370 (Return Fire) 07:51, 7 July 2007 (UTC)

Singing of the National Anthem
I have heard a good deal of talk about the wide range of this song, and how the large intervals make it an intimidating feat for most singers.

I think that it would be a very good idea to have on this article a list of notable incidences in which the anthem has been botched, either vocally or lyrically.

Furthermore, if anyone has ever actually sung it (or even can sing it), I would love to hear from them here. Perhaps we should include what the average vocal range is for most people, so as to say, for example, "The Anthem is extremely difficult for most people to sing, as it has a range of an octave and a half, whereas the majority of of the population can only sing one octave," or something to that effect.

SwedishConqueror 05:06, 6 August 2007 (UTC)User:SwedishConqueror
 * If you have a citation for the octave range, then you're welcome to add it. User:Zscout370 (Return Fire) 05:27, 6 August 2007 (UTC)

I don't, though. I was hoping someone else knew, although I can't imagine that the average range would be much larger than a single octave; that's why those who can manage the National Anthem are considered exceptional vocalists.

SwedishConqueror 03:51, 7 August 2007 (UTC)User:SwedishConqueror
 * Agreed, it is hard to sing, but I just don't know what the official octave is. User:Zscout370 (Return Fire) 06:08, 7 August 2007 (UTC)


 * Having a range of one and a half octave is very common, but you usually don't choose in which key to sing the national anthem, so for many it won't fit within their ideal range. Professional singers often/usually have two and a half octaves or more. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 77.40.128.194 (talk) 10:15, 11 March 2008 (UTC)

Anthem before 1931
what was the anthem before ?(Gnevin 17:11, 10 September 2007 (UTC))
 * There was no national anthem before 1931. The Star-Spangled Banner was the first. Trvsdrlng 16:39, 11 September 2007 (UTC)
 * So what happened at offical event? Was no music played, was their a de facto anthem?Gnevin 12:39, 12 September 2007 (UTC)
 * From late 1910's until the 1930's, the SSB was used at military functions as a de facto anthem. But I have not seen proof that there was a "de facto" anthem used at, lets say, the Olympics or inaugurations. User:Zscout370 (Return Fire) 13:49, 12 September 2007 (UTC)
 * See the topic above named "What was the previous anthem?" . --  JackofOz 14:00, 12 September 2007 (UTC)

Not sure, but Canada doesn't have its own national anthem before or after 1931. Then again, O Canada became Canada's own national anthem on July 1, 1980, which is 49 years after The Star-Spangled Banner became the U.S. national anthem. Don-Don (talk) 09:25, 30 April 2008 (UTC)

"God Bless America" is far superior
Wouldn't "God Bless America" be a better anthem for the USA? Is anyone aware of a movement to have the offical anthem changed to "God Bless America"? I would wholeheartedly support such a movement, my most selfish reason being that I'm sick and tired of hearing about 'bombs bursting in air,' pagan flag-worship and other such nonsense. GBA is such a fantastic song that I can barely wait to hear it during the seventh inning stretch of a Yankee or Red Sox game. On the other hand, SSB is such a horrible and trite piece of drivel that I nearly trip over the furniture to find the remote to change the tele to another channel at the beginning of the game! It really is a silly and awful compostion, one that should be resigned to the same trash bin as that garrish, ugly flag it undeservedly venerates. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 142.59.9.52 (talk) 18:36, 13 September 2007 (UTC)


 * Most of your post is an expression of your opinion that GBA is better than SSB. That's fine, except here is not the place to debate that issue.  As to your question "Is anyone aware of a movement to have the offical anthem changed to "God Bless America"?", I'm not aware of any such movement.  Others may be aware.  --  JackofOz 23:31, 13 September 2007 (UTC)
 * I see musings on blogs and websites, but not a real movement at all. The latest movement, which just stopped, just wanted to get citizens to know the lyrics of the SSB. User:Zscout370 (Return Fire) 05:35, 14 September 2007 (UTC)
 * It will never happen. And the flag-trasher is an ignoranimous. Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? 10:42, 11 March 2008 (UTC)
 * Also, many still associate the song primarily with Kate Smith, and not everyone was that keen on Kate Smith. Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? 15:51, 11 March 2008 (UTC)

Though, I do want SSB to remain the official national anthem of the USA, I consider GBA as, I don't know, America's answer to Rule, Britannia! Don-Don (talk) 23:59, 6 May 2008 (UTC)

Why no mention of George Armistead?
I find it a little odd that http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/George_Armistead isn't linked in here somewhere.

Lawrie 00:44, 24 October 2007 (UTC)
 * The article is mostly about the song. The linking should occur at the article on the flag, specifically. User:Zscout370 (Return Fire) 06:09, 25 October 2007 (UTC)

Relationship between poem/song and flag
It is not clear to me whether the poem referred to the star-spangled banner because the flag was already so known, or if the flag first received its name from the use of this term in the poem and song? Shulgi (talk) 02:26, 21 November 2007 (UTC)

"Protocol"
There is no valid law requiring anyone to acknowledge the U.S. flag or the National Anthem in any way. Violations of protocol are met by public ridicule, not by arrest. The so-called "law" cited is a code-of-etiquette similar to the flag etiquette code. Notice that there is no penalty listed. The notion that Obama was "violating the law" is silly. If he blatantly failed to abide by proper protocol, he should be ridiculed. That's what freedom of speech is there for. Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? 03:08, 14 November 2007 (UTC)

There is no penalty but that does not change the fact that it exists in the Code and that there are protocols that are recommended. There is no reason to omit what the proper protocols are just because they are not enforceable. Tamani 05:49, 14 November 2007 (UTC)


 * There is a huge difference between "recommended" and "required". This is all about right-wingers trying to make something out of Obama not placing his hand over his heart. There is no law "requiring" citizens to do so. It's a bogus, POV-pushing issue that has no business being in this article. Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? 06:34, 14 November 2007 (UTC)


 * It is not POV pushing to state what people do when the national anthem is played. Similar national anthem articles have that section. User:Zscout370 (Return Fire) 14:07, 14 November 2007 (UTC)
 * But if the core issue was over the Obama note, then I went ahead and nuked that reference. We have other citations stating the protocol. User:Zscout370 (Return Fire) 14:10, 14 November 2007 (UTC)
 * This subject of whether Obama broke some "law" is a typical red herring by political extremists. There is not now, nor has there ever been, a law requiring Americans to acknowledge the flag or the anthem in any way. "What people do" when the anthem is played is entirely their own choice, and is not subject to the rule of law unless they break some other law such as disorderly conduct. But appearances matter, and if Obama expects to get elected, he had better learn to look more patriotic. Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? 23:32, 14 November 2007 (UTC)

You keep saying that there is no law. There apparently IS a law. It is listed in the US Code passed by Congress. The question that remains unanswered is what exactly that means.

It's not really fair to say that it's "right-winger" who are saying it is a law. The citation goes to cornell with a listing of all sorts of articles of US Code--this was passed over 60 years ago! The Obama citation wasn't valid anyway because if you go to the Slate article you find it referencing the Wikipedia page--so its just circular referencing.

But, truly it made me wonder if you were being a left-winger for doing away with the whole paragraph. It already said that enforcing such a rule would violate the constitution. No one was suggesting that anyone be arrested and the Nazi accusation is getting kind of old. Tamani 02:07, 15 November 2007 (UTC)
 * Left winger? Read my previous last sentence. Obama had better learn the protocol or it will hurt his chances for election. I am a patriot. And no one orders me, an American citizen, to salute the flag or the national anthem. The Nazi comparison is valid because flag desecration was considered an offense against the state in Nazi Germany, or so it is often said. In contrast, violating these US codes or protocols is, as Robert Klein would say, "roughly equivalent to tearing a tag off a mattress." There are plenty of resolutions that go through Congress that could very loosely be interpreted as "laws" (especially by someone wanting to slander a political candidate), but this so-called "law" is simply an agreement about the proper or "official" way to conduct the national anthem, just as the flag code is the officially defined set of rules for handling the flag. But if someone chooses not to follow those codes, they have not "broken the law", although under some circumstances they could be breaking other laws, such as disturbing the peace or inciting to riot. Those are laws. As for the part about "if enforced, it would violate the first amendment" would obviously be true, if it were really a law. Which it ain't. Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? 02:37, 15 November 2007 (UTC)


 * I fixed more of the statement. There are local laws dealing with the anthem, but all sources require payment to see them. I do not see anywhere about punishments on a federal level, nor I see anything with regards to the anthem and the first amendment. I can try and do more later, but I am glad at least one of the major issues, the Obama citation, is dealt with. User:Zscout370 (Return Fire) 04:14, 15 November 2007 (UTC)
 * It's getting toward where it should be, namely that it is simply the recommended "ritual", so to speak, as regards singing and responding to the anthem. It's like the flag code that way. The one place it's off-course is to even bring up the notion of "punishment". It's irrelevant. This is not a criminal law that one can break, it's simply "etiquette". As I recall from reading that code the other day, it said that the anthem should be played or sung in a dignified way. In short, not like the infamous Rosanne Barr rendition. But did she get arrested? Of course not. There is no legal sanction for violating this code. The sanction comes from public scorn and ridicule. Rosanne didn't break any law, she grossly breached etiquette. That's what it's about. Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? 05:12, 15 November 2007 (UTC)
 * I made a few changes, and ironically it would be appropriate to bring Obama back into the discussion, as his failure to place hand over heart was a breach of etiquette, and that's what all the brouhaha was about. However, the notion that he "broke the law" is bogus. Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? 05:37, 15 November 2007 (UTC)
 * Nah, skip it. It's not mentioned in the Obama article. It's a minor to-do, by a few bloggers, about almost nothing. Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? 05:57, 15 November 2007 (UTC)

I'm changing the title of this section to "Custom"; it sounds better. "Protocol" sounds more like something you would find in some employee's handbook. Plus, its not like this stuff is required. M173627 (talk) 23:39, 25 February 2008 (UTC)
 * Good idea. No American civilian is required to acknowledge the flag in any way. If he does choose to acknowledge the flag, these customs, which are codified, could be considered a "protocol", but that term has kind of an ominous tone to it. Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? 23:51, 25 February 2008 (UTC)