Talk:The Stars and Stripes Forever

Lyrics
The lyrics that Mr. Sousa put to this march can be viewed on the website located under the Links section. Now you are more than welcome to write the other various lyrics that have been adopted from this march. But I really don't want to waste my time writing lyrics for a nursery rhyme that what I think are fairly stupid and misdirect people from an amazing piece of work such as this. That's just my opinion. Call it my inabilty to contribute information do to strong ethnical beliefs? No hard feelings everybody. SousaFan88 — Preceding undated comment added 15:23, 31 August 2004 (UTC)


 * Thanks for the link; I feel kind of stupid because I glossed over the external links section when I was reading the page. I added the lyrics to the end page, though they might be long enough to warrant a move to WikiSource. In any case, I think it's important that Mr. Sousa's original lyrics be included somewhere on the Wiki.


 * As for your comment about nonsense lyrics, I do agree that they're fairly stupid. If they were to be included in Wikipedia at all, it would probably be done best on a separate article. I'm not going to go out of my way to type them up, either. It is rather silly.


 * One thing to consider, though: imitation is the sincerest form of flattery. When a song or other work of art becomes so ingrained in popular culture that everyone's heard some version of it, you can take that as another form of certification of the greatness of Mr. Sousa's work. &bull; Benc &bull; 18:46, 31 Aug 2004 (UTC)

Comment from 2004
I highly recommend this article be renamed "THE Stars and Stripes Forever". Due to the fact that "THE" appears on the original manuscript of the march, I believe that the redirect from The Stars and Stripes Forever to Stars and Stripes Forever should not exist... — Preceding unsigned comment added by SousaFan88 (talk • contribs) 02:58, 26 October 2004 (UTC)

Disambiguation
This needs disambiguation because of the novel Stars and Stripes Forever by Harry Harrison. Fatfingers 02:22, 15 March 2006 (UTC)
 * Good idea, I'm on it. --NicAgent 02:46, 18 April 2006 (UTC)

US National Anthem debate
Was there at some point in history that this song was nominated to replace the Star Spangled Banner? --ConradKilroy 03:23, 6 June 2006 (UTC)
 * Yes, I believe in the 1930s, at the time Congress was debating about selecting a national anthem, there was some talk of using this march. There had not been an official anthem until that time. --Wspencer11 (talk to me...) 16:31, 24 October 2006 (UTC)
 * It is currently the Official march of the United States Counterfit 19:32, 3 June 2007 (UTC)

Tempo?
In his liner notes for the "Footlifters" album from the mid-1970s, Gunther Schuller says that Sousa preferred the French "quick-step" tempo for this march (& maybe others too?). I think it sounds very nice that way and wish more people would do it at that speed, pace Horowitz. --Wspencer11 (talk to me...) 16:35, 24 October 2006 (UTC)

Requested move (2007)
The original band parts penned by Sousa are part of the John Philip Sousa collection housed at UIUC and do not contain the word 'The' in the title. Therefore, I propose that the article be renamed to simply Stars and Stripes Forever (march) with The Stars and Stripes Forever (march) redirecting to the article. Comments should be made here on the article talk page. -- Upholder 23:04, 25 June 2007 (UTC) This article has been renamed as the result of a move request. --Stemonitis 05:39, 1 July 2007 (UTC)
 * There is no need for any disambiguation in the title as this would currently be the only article named "Stars and Stripes Forever", so if it is moved, it should be moved to Stars and Stripes Forever. If any other "Stars and Stripes Forever" articles are created then this will probably remain the primary use, so a link to Stars and Stripes Forever (disambiguation) from this article (as already exists) will be OK. Masaruemoto 22:12, 26 June 2007 (UTC)
 * I support Masaruemoto's idea E.G. 05:37, 27 June 2007 (UTC)
 * I updated the request on the Requested moves page. I attempted to do this move myself following the directions at m:Help:Moving a page but was unable to do so because the redirect existed.. I then tried to move the redirect out of the way and it left a new redirect.. so when the admin moves this page, please cleanup Stars and Stripes Forever (old redirect) that is a result of my mistake.  -- Upholder 17:51, 27 June 2007 (UTC)


 * In the original band parts, that may be, but on Sousa's original piano manuscript (which he and his publisher's used to adapt the band parts), the article "THE" is clearly in the title. This can be viewed in "The Works of John Philip Sousa" by Paul Bierley. Bierley himself wrote the title as "The Stars and Stripes Forever". This is also the way it is written in most band arrangements as well. Just look on JW Pepper. So keep it as you wish, but just know that the modest three-lettered word does in fact belong there. SousaFan88 05:52, 18 September 2007 (UTC)


 * I concur with SousaFan88, that all instances of the title for the printed music be changed to "The Stars and Stripes Forever." This is the proper title of the work as printed on the majority of early published editions, as identified in Paul Bierley's books on Sousa, and as listed in Sousa's autobiography, Marching Along (reprinted by Integrity Press, 1994, page 157). Publishers are known to make mistakes (look at the early misnumbering of the Dvorak symphonies), whereas overwhelming scholarly evidence indicates the use of "The" at the beginning of the title. User: RussG1776, 30 August 2008 —Preceding unsigned comment added by 68.193.208.193 (talk) 01:22, 31 August 2008 (UTC)

"Only one recording"? The article states that there's only one recording of this known, but at the Cylinder Preservation and Digitization project, there are at least two distinct recordings, one of which dates to before 1900. They are http://cylinders.library.ucsb.edu/search.php?queryType=@attr%201=1016%20&query=sousa&num=1&start=20&sortBy=performer&sortOrder=id and http://cylinders.library.ucsb.edu/search.php?queryType=@attr%201=1016%20&query=sousa&num=1&start=9&sortBy=performer&sortOrder=id and are both by a band of Sousa's. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Meteor Swarm§ (talk • contribs) 00:11, 29 September 2008 (UTC)

That first link doesn't say "Stars and Stripes Forever" anywhere.... 66.156.235.246 (talk) 20:15, 3 July 2010 (UTC)

I found this and I think it might be of help: http://cylinders.library.ucsb.edu/search.php?queryType=@attr 1=1016&query=sousa+stars&num=1&start=1&sortBy=&sortOrder=id

Put a space in between 'attr' and the '1' —Preceding unsigned comment added by 70.15.65.122 (talk) 21:47, 18 April 2011 (UTC)

Never Two Piccolos?
I have studied Sousa extensively and have never encountered this "fact". It seems very odd. Propose this be removed unless citation can be provided. Dlovrien (talk) 17:33, 15 December 2008 (UTC)

The basic jist of it is it's incredibly difficult thing to maintain intonation using an even number of piccolos. I'm not familiar with the science behind it, but it has something to do with high wave lengths and the way the ear perceives them. Basically, 2, 4, or 6 piccolos are going to sound worse than 1, 3, or 5. It's just how it is. I doubt Sousa new the science behind it either, but he was enough of a musician to know what works, and as a band director today, not much has changed. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Tgepd (talk • contribs) 23:28, 18 April 2011 (UTC)

Other lyrics/versions
I have a distinct recollection of a shortish animated cartoon feature broadcast in England in the early 1970s, featuring the lyric:

"Be kind to your small person friends,

Every Who may be somebody's brother..."

I remember that is was based on a Dr Seuss story, so I would guess that it was the 1970 30-minute TV special Horton Hears a Who! But after 30-odd years, I really can't be sure of that. Does this ring any bells? If I'm correct, I think it would be worth a sentence. Grubstreet (talk) 22:05, 9 April 2009 (UTC)


 * I don't really think that would be worth mentioning in this article. Not every 'mention of this was made in some TV show' is notable or encyclopedic enough to appear in a Wikipedia article. AJD (talk) 15:29, 10 April 2009 (UTC)


 * Not a 'mention in some TV show' but an alternative lyric, which I was trying to confirm was written by Theodor Seuss Geisel. As no one else seems interested, I have dug around some more, and the evidence appears to be that the words were indeed by Dr Seuss, that it was for Horton Hears a Who (TV) and that it was resurrected for the movie of the same name, which topped the US box office in March 2008. It is on sale at Amazon as an MP3 track, and elsewhere as a ringtone. But if the view in America is that Singalong With Mitch is more notable than Dr Seuss, that's just one more thing for us on my side of the Atlantic to puzzle over... Grubstreet (talk) 19:54, 17 May 2009 (UTC)


 * The thing is, it seems to me that parody lyrics for "Stars and Stripes Forever" are common enough in American culture that it would be impossible to list all of the parodies that have been written for various movies and TV shows and so on. (At present there's a mention in the article of parody lyrics that were used in a pasta commercial in the 1970s, or something, which I'm going to remove.) The "Singalong with Mitch" lyrics, however, are—in my experience—very well-known, and may even be thought of by some people as the real lyrics, and have been parodied themselves (for example, the Dr. Seuss lyrics you quote are apparently such a parody). If the lyrics you quote actually were written by Dr. Seuss, that probably is noteworthy enough to be mentioned in the article, though. AJD (talk) 19:03, 18 May 2009 (UTC)

Since the majority may feel that this information does not belong in the main entry I will mention here for the consideration of the world-wide audience that in the late 50s/early 60s we sang the words "Be kind to your web-footed friends/Because a duck might be somebody's mother" over and over again until the end of the song or until some adult told us to go play quietly somewhere else. There were probably countless regional variations. (66.162.249.170 (talk) 07:27, 31 May 2011 (UTC))

I sang the "web-footed" version at Scout camp circa 1956, so the Mitch Miller citation is far from the first use of that parody. Can we get a better one? Igodard (talk) 11:56, 7 December 2015 (UTC)

Outside US
The tune is also known outside the US, though with different uses. While visiting England I personally heard some football/soccer fans cheer their team with this tune (the words sounded like "Fight on, Liverpool, Liverpool!"), and I presume that's not the only use. CharlesTheBold (talk) 19:39, 29 June 2009 (UTC)

Quote from the article: "In Germany, the tune got popular with the product introduction of a Detergent called "Der General" (a pun with military "General" and "Generalreiniger" for all-purpose cleaner). The TV spots started 1984, during an alltime high of German Antiamericanism and Peace Movement."

I'm pretty sure that the spot was from seventies, not 1984. Maybe it was discontinued in 1984? 78.34.109.182 (talk) 21:24, 16 January 2010 (UTC)

On Youtube there is version of the spot from 1981 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J0hWu_ZTJpU 78.34.109.182 (talk) 21:59, 16 January 2010 (UTC)

Animated/Graphical Score?
Would it be appropriate to add a link to this animated graphical score of the piece? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cx0RRdPdKcM Musanim (talk) 19:49, 3 September 2009 (UTC)

"Official"?, etc.
This article is, first and foremost, remarkable for its plethora of facts, some of them quite dubious, and its simultaneous dearth of footnotes. One of the most dubious of these "facts" is a claim about the "official" version of the piece. How can there be an "official" version of a work that is solidly in the public domain, and whose sole composer has been dead for many decades? --Piledhigheranddeeper (talk) 21:57, 29 April 2010 (UTC)


 * The same way there is an official version of anything. We have the original publication. The fact that someone can change it doesn't mean there wasn't an original, and thus officially released version. — trlkly 11:59, 9 September 2010 (UTC)

Requested move (2010)

 * The following discussion is an archived discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. No further edits should be made to this section. 

The result of the move request was: page moved. SPhilbrick T  22:01, 21 November 2010 (UTC)

Stars and Stripes Forever → The Stars and Stripes Forever — I'm requesting this page be reverted back to "The Stars and Stripes Forever", thus adding back the article 'the'. There is heavy evidence that this is the proper title of the march, and it appears those who advocated the change are unfamiliar with the subject. Throughout my many years as a march connoisseur, I have almost always seen the title this way. You can view the original Sousa manuscript of the work in Paul Bierley's Sousa biography, which clearly shows the correct title. Any simple search of modern arrangements of the march show the title as this as well. For Pete's sake, the very image on this page shows it as "The Stars and Stripes Forever"! If you require further information, please let me know. SousaFan88 (talk) 10:33, 12 November 2010 (UTC)
 * Support emphatically. This, the first reference on the page, should put all question of common name to rest.  Powers T 13:24, 12 November 2010 (UTC)
 * Support, uncontroversial.--Kotniski (talk) 11:24, 20 November 2010 (UTC)
 * The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

In Popular Culture
I removed a few references in the "In Popular Culture" category as non-noteable (or complete false), yet another useless one was added almost immediately. Can we rename this category to guide people not to include one-time uses of the tune? Some items in this category are truly notable and we should keep those. Dlovrien (talk) 02:51, 8 May 2011 (UTC)
 * I am not sure what is the reason to remove a reference to Fleisher Popeye cartoons where the melody is featured deliberately and repeatedly. Here is an example. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1_m2WUFxnKU —Preceding unsigned comment added by 85.141.129.185 (talk) 21:00, 16 May 2011 (UTC)
 * The original cartoon you cited ("Man on the Flying Trapeze") had no quotes from Stars And Stripes Forever at all, which sort of refutes your claim. The one you cite above ("Let's You And Him Fight") does contain a quote from 5:25 to 5:49 (It also quote several other famous classical melodies throughout the cartoon).  The next cartoon in the list on YouTube ("Can You Take It?") contains no S&SF quote.  I don't think this justifies a repeated or notable use. Dlovrien (talk) 14:01, 18 May 2011 (UTC)

Translation
Please translate this article into Russian. 78.85.92.221 (talk) 13:52, 4 December 2011 (MSK)
 * It's unlikely that anyone capable of doing this will read this request. You would be better off posting a request on the Russian Wikipedia; see ru:Википедия:Проект:Переводы.  Powers T 19:11, 4 December 2011 (UTC)

Disaster March?
It is currently stated as a fact that this march is "the disaster march" used by circuses, etc. I would question this. I have read elsewhere that there are several different tunes used for this purpose, that the Stars and Stripes is not the most frequently used, and that none of these have any real or official status. Any input or comments?124.197.15.138 (talk) 07:32, 30 June 2012 (UTC)
 * Well, we know with reasonable certainty that it was used at least once for that purpose. What we would need from you are some reliable sources stating that other marches are commonly used.  Powers T 15:14, 3 July 2012 (UTC)
 * If this "fact" is being based on a single documented use, the phrase "used as a disaster march" would be more appropriate. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 68.103.21.75 (talk) 21:41, 6 March 2019 (UTC)

Boston Pops?
No mention of the Boston Pops anywhere? The Stars and Stripes Forever is almost synonymous with the Boston Pops. 98.196.22.82 (talk) 03:30, 5 July 2012 (UTC)
 * Er, not really. How do you figure?  Powers T 16:04, 6 July 2012 (UTC)

Views
This is a warning. It is currently Independence Day in the United States. Google Doodle is featuring this theme as they celebrate the occasion. If there is ever a time when this article will receive a lot of views, it will be now. Just a warning. --Mr. Guye (talk) 16:42, 4 July 2014 (UTC)

Discussion at Talk:United States#National March
You are invited to join the discussion at Talk:United States. Thanks. RightCowLeftCoast (talk) 07:20, 19 February 2015 (UTC)--RightCowLeftCoast (talk) 07:20, 19 February 2015 (UTC)

Marine Band vs. Navy Band
I detect little difference between the United States Marine Band recording and the United States Navy Band recording other than the tempo. The tempo of each recording is unremarkable since both recordings have a duration of nearly the same length. Unless an explanation of how the "Navy" recording is substantively different from the "Marine" recording, the newly added "Navy" recording should be removed. It is inappropriate to play out a Marine vs. Navy rivalry on this page.Jbh001 (talk) 23:21, 15 June 2015 (UTC)