Talk:The Third Wave (experiment)

Expansion
I've read the novel of this, but don't know what really happened and what was fiction, but somebody who is familiar with the actual experiment should fill in more details of how far it went - in the novel, for example, it turned really nasty at the end (like the SS or the Hitler youth sort of mentality), and I was wondering if more could be added about the real event. Saccerzd 18:56, 25 June 2006 (UTC)

Ron Jones story was highly embellished?
There is an argument to be made that this "Third Wave" experiment did occur, but that Ron Jones' version is highly embellished. I personally find it implausible that this happened as described, especially in the course of five school days. Lyle Burkhead's site (see below) seems to make a good argument that Jones embellished.

Unfortunately Burkhead doesn't seem to have documented his debunking. And as I read further I developed doubts about Burkhead's reliability, starting with his playing down of Nazi actions in WWII (Hitler likened to the Sorcerer's Apprentice), but especially when he started going on about Jews, and continuing as I read more about his interest in, shall we say, unorthodox ideas... whacky, if you prefer.

Even apart from my doubts about Burkhead, his site doesn't qualify as a source for Wikipedia purposes. But I can find nothing else suitable.

It might be accurate to say that Ron Jones' account has not been verified, and students who were involved in the experiment have not spoken out publically. However, we must avoid original research. So, it would be very valuable to find reliable sources on the reliability or unreliability of Ron Jones' story.

For now, I have changed some wording to reflect the fact that the story is Jones' version, and not independently verfiied.

Here are the sections of this Wikipedia article which have been removed (27 April 2006, edit summary = removed neo-Nazi links) - I sympathize with the removal, but am concerned that the article is now endorsing Ron Jones' version of events:
 * There exists some doubt that the experiment took the full form described by Jones. The Catamount, the school newspaper at Cubberley, reported details that conflicted with Jones' published account.

and from External links:
 * Holocaust revisionist and self-described "post-Nazi" Lyle Burkhead questions the veracity of Ross' account of the Third Wave, including responses from former Cubberley students and scans of contemporaneous articles from the Cubberley school paper, The Catamount.

The concerns about accuracy may also be relevant to The Wave (book). -Singkong2005 06:14, 29 April 2006 (UTC)


 * I added a link, which does seem to add some support to the story: Remembering the 3rd Wave, 1991, Leslie Weinfield, on Ron Jones' website. It quotes from students Neel, Hancock, Coniglio, Moore, Reit, plus has a comment from the president of the school board on why Jones' teaching was considered unsatisfactory. If the quotes from students are to be believed, it was a very significant experience not unlike what Jones described - but it would still be useful to have better sources on the students' versions.


 * The link also mentions the influence on Philip Zimbardo (Stanford prison experiment).
 * Yes, "wacky" is certainly a better word. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 203.58.41.182 (talk) 22:29, 15 November 2007 (UTC)

Removal of link
I removed this page from external links.

The homepage of a Holocaust revisionist, containing 'evidence' that six million jews weren't gassed and that the Third Reich was a utopia, is not a reliable source on anything critical of Nazism. If you can find these statements on a neutral site (that is, neutral from both sides, which means that neither stormfront nor ADL are reliable), please add the link. Joffeloff 20:04, 23 June 2006 (UTC)
 * Why is there a link to a holocaust denial site at the end? Can it be removed?


 * I think the geniebusters link should be removed. Not because of the content of the page linked itself, but because of the "Main Third Wave page" linked to there, which contains straight antisemitism, Holocaust denial and more of the same. And Yes, I do recognize that the cited evidence there is of interest, but it might as well be all fabricated.


 * I also suspect that the author of the mentioned pages might be playing his own Third-Wave-like game, to teach the reader a lesson. He writes a great number of paragraphs before breaking his fascist views, to build credibility. When he states his antisemitist views, he states them in a pretty extreme way, which might be intended as a wakeup call. 78.49.46.218 (talk) 18:54, 11 March 2008 (UTC)
 * It scared me a little. I read the entire page, and he uses SO MUCH logic and common sense in the early paragraphs that you start to feel very comfortable around him. But then suddenly Holocaust and Judaism is drafted into the picture - and suddenly all common sense vanishes. That Jones is related to Jews would, by his earlier common sense, not NECESSARILY be relevant, but when he reaches this point, he declares it without criticism. And as for the anti-gassing, he didn't even use enough sense for me to even 'get' HOW they were related to the debunking of the Third Wave story - I mean, even taking a passive, neutral standpoint and not taking the antisemitism into question, I still simply DIDN'T GET how it was relevant - even IF he were right (which I obviously don't think), I still miss the connection. Was kinda frightening realizing half way through what it was really all about, having just become really accustomed to him - especially his describing himself as an outsider and an explorer of various alternate forms of consciousness, which I found myself identifying with. It's interesting that way he conjures up illusions and fabricates it all to look anti-illusion. Made me more cynical in one hour than I usually get in years... Taught me a Third Wave-like lesson - how easily you can be lead onto a wrong path. I know all this prolly wasn't relevant for the wiki talk page, but I post it here so others coming here from a similar experience at the same site will have something else to identify with than pure antisemitism. Don't worry, this is no mind trick (even if the author of the aforementioned page would prolly state otherwise). I'm not at all clever enough to pull that kinda stuff off... —Preceding unsigned comment added by 62.107.24.213 (talk) 20:43, 12 September 2008 (UTC)
 * Removed geniebus* link (again) - Revisionism. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 83.171.181.68 (talk) 07:47, 18 March 2008 (UTC)
 * From someone who knows very little about wikipedia: Is it possible to remove the geniebus link under controversy as well? Or at least comment that the source is not thrustworthy. It took me a while to discover that it leads you to a page, where both holocaust denial and very alternative 9/11-theories flourish. To me that is highly problematic to use as a source of knowledge. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 90.184.76.212 (talk) 10:17, 19 October 2008 (UTC)

Additional Possible Sources of Contemporary Data
I think the Palo Alto Times may have had additional articles about this event, but since the paper no longer exists (and I don't live locally there anyway), I'm not sure if archives exist or where they might be. (Maybe the Stanford library or the Palo Alto Historical Association or the Palo Alto Library). This might be a possibility for future research. The Times used to have a high-times section on Thursday nights that might be a starting point, although this event could have found its way into other local news. Ron Jones and the controversy regarding his termination/resignation in 1969 are also mentioned in "Hassling", by Sylvia Berry Williams;Publisher: Little Brown & Co. (1970), as well as in numerous editions of the Cubberley Catamount. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 68.123.103.204 (talk) 03:06, 7 April 2008 (UTC)

The Palo Alto Times back issues were researched for the Lesson Plan documentary film, and The Third Wave is not mentioned (very little coverage of the high schools, and then mostly sports and the occasional competition trophy by a student). —Preceding unsigned comment added by 98.237.234.240 (talk) 06:56, 17 November 2010 (UTC)

list of movies
The movie adaptions are described twice. Vaste (talk) 17:56, 8 July 2011 (UTC)

drastic improvement
"All of the students showed drastic improvement in their academic skills" Surely this can not happen in 3 days??? 82.80.117.203 (talk) 14:27, 17 July 2011 (UTC)
 * I would suggest that what was meant was by their academic skills was there ability to work; ie, all students where able to concentrate more effectively on there studies. 115.124.4.18 (talk) 10:57, 7 August 2011 (UTC)
 * Or, y'know, it's derived from the original article in Mother Jones by the teacher and was largely made up.


 * Surely drastic improvement in academic skills—if it occurs—could happen quickly as students focus more or learn new techniques. Just as surely, a great deal of the story as presented is hogwash. — Llywelyn II   14:41, 29 October 2023 (UTC)

Requested move 29 October 2015

 * The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review. No further edits should be made to this section. 

The result of the move request was: Moved Natg 19 (talk) 00:56, 6 November 2015 (UTC)

The Third Wave → The Third Wave (experiment) – Though fascinating, this doesn't look like a WP:PRIMARYTOPIC to me. Almost everything on the dab Third wave can be referred to as The Third Wave, and Third-wave feminism is of great academic/encyclopedic importance, to say nothing of the other topics there. --BDD (talk) 19:13, 29 October 2015 (UTC)
 * Support – I agree, there doesn't seem to be much reason for this to be the primary topic, when also considering there are various books and film with the exact title. I'm guessing the idea would be to then redirect "The Third Wave" to the dab page. Do U(knome)?  yes...or no 23:28, 29 October 2015 (UTC)
 * Support this should point to the dab page -- 70.51.44.60 (talk) 05:23, 30 October 2015 (UTC)
 * Support, per nom, although some people I know would make Third wave of coffee the main page. Randy Kryn 11:09, 30 October 2015 (UTC)
 * Support, as this article is clearly not the "Third Wave" readers are most likely to be looking for. If anything I would think third-wave feminism would be the article to make the main topic — certainly that's the topic I've most often seen referred to as a "third wave" — but I'm not opposed to the dab page (current title Third wave) being made the main via redirects after this page is moved. — GrammarFascist  contribs talk 11:04, 1 November 2015 (UTC)


 * The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page or in a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.

Additional source
Hello,

This year, some French students (from Grenoble) worked on this experiment during a lecture on zététique. In addition to bring new thoughts (in French, but I can help to translate if needed), there is the transcription of emails they exchanged with two former students of Ron Jones (in English). This might help to contribute to this page. http://cortecs.org/a-la-une/best-of-des-meilleurs-dossiers-z-du-semestre-22-mai-2016/attachment/cortex_zadi_22-10_la_vague_clerec_conjard_masso_uliana_vattier/ Clement.analogue (talk) 12:32, 20 September 2016 (UTC)


 * Numerous sources are listed here: http://www.thewavehome.com/chronology.htm. Mathglot (talk) 22:51, 3 December 2016 (UTC)

Not an experiment
I'm not sure I have a better term to describe what went on in Jones's classroom in a single word, but 'Experiment' seems like the wrong one. My guess is that it took on that name much later, by analogy with the famous Stanford Prison Experiment which was an actual psychology experiment conducted in 1971, and which may even have been influenced by the Third Wave classroom events which occurred just a few miles away four years earlier.

When I think of high school experiments, I think about teacher-planned scientific experiments in physics, biology, or chemistry that have hypotheses to prove, and a particular, desired outcome known in advance and used as a teaching method. The Third Wave was certainly nothing like that. Neither is it a dramatization, like a play or sketch with rehearsed lines, or even ad libbed lines within a fixed format. Rather, even Jones seemed not to know where it was going at any particular moment, but rather (to continue his metaphor) he surfed along the surface of the wave, to see how it was evolving and to attempt to stay on top of it from moment to moment as it did. It's a bit like a workshop, although even that seems too structured and pre-planned a format for the unplanned and evolving nature of what actually occurred.

I'm not so concerned about the parenthetical  in the article title, but rather about calling it an "experiment" in the text of the article, since it isn't one. But I'm not sure what word would be better, and I'd welcome suggestions to improve this. Mathglot (talk) 02:05, 4 December 2016 (UTC)


 * Jones tested a hypothesis on his captive audience. He induced behaviour and introduced ideas to see what would happen. That is, by any definition, an experiment. Granted, high school experiments should be properly planned and regulated, but the execution of the work doesn't change the definition. Fiddlersmouth (talk) 03:28, 4 December 2016 (UTC)

Hyperbole
In Chronology > Third Day

"All of the students showed drastic improvement in their academic skills and tremendous motivation."

What's the evidence for this? After only 3 days how would anyone measure an improvement in overall academic skills? This seems to be an unsupported - and extremely unlikely - claim. If the teacher running the Third Wave phenomenon (it sems inaccurate to call it an experiment) saw improved scores on a quiz or something similar it would be evidence that would support a more modest claim of improvement. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2601:184:C302:4E88:4A4:8CFF:663:F16E (talk) 18:34, 22 February 2018 (UTC)


 * Agreed, and if this was only 1 history class, surely the teacher did not see them more than AT MOST 4 hours each day? Vegard (talk) 23:58, 24 March 2018 (UTC)

Inconsistent time
The wikipage (section Chronology -> Fourth day) implies the event started on Monday and ended on Friday (the fourth day is said to have been Thursday). The page also states that it happened during the first week of April 1967 (section Background to the Third Wave experiment). That would mean that the experiment was held from 1967-04-03 to 1967-04-07.

However, one of the sources, Cubberley Catamount issue published on Friday 1967-04-07, states on page 5 (PDF page 11) bottom right, that the experiment actually concluded Wednesday: "The Great Third Wave crashed to a final conclusion Wednesday with the loyal ones sitting in the dark, listening to the "Fuehrer"--static from a TV set!"--Superbee29 (talk) 18:21, 9 April 2018 (UTC)

Ron Jones bias -- SDS member and Black Panther supporter
In the carry over paragraph and later in this article (2 links): http://www.cubberleycatamount.com/Content/69-70/Catamount%20Pages/V14No10%2019700304/Page1.pdf http://www.cubberleycatamount.com/Content/69-70/Catamount%20Pages/V14No10%2019700304/Page5.pdf it clearly indicates Jones' was sympathetic to the Black Panthers and gave them material support. Shouldn't this be mentioned in the article (and his personal Wiki page), since most of the information about the experiment are observations and interpretations by himself?


 * If Jones supported the (Militaristic Armed Activist) Black Panther movement, and created and published about an experiment trying to prove to (White?) Society they should not start an organisation with similar characteristics, than that makes me wonder about his real motifs. Are there any scholarly studies on this subject? Because this article is cripple without that insight into his character, beliefs and motives.77.60.121.89 (talk) 08:46, 31 January 2023 (UTC)
 * In this article, Jones implies he's a member of the Students for a Democratic Society. Again, shouldn't this indicate a possible bias, in a desire to show everyone is a potential Nazi and thus encourage his students (and later, readers, and watchers of the TV show, film, and musical, wherever performed), to swing to the Left wing to avoid becoming Nazis? http://www.cubberleycatamount.com/Content/67-68/Catamount%20Pages/V12No6/671208.pdf Phantom in ca (talk) 04:46, 17 June 2018 (UTC)

Bias
The funny thing is- there was a radical Maoist movement in the area called ‘Venceremos’ that exhibited many of these same traits, sneering at freedom as a ‘bourgeois conception’.Did Jones ever remark on this? No record of it. 2A00:23C5:E097:5D00:C1C5:69D:52B0:6E70 (talk) 22:46, 25 March 2019 (UTC)

The Authoritarian Personality: motivation/purpose of the experiment?
The Authoritarian Personality had a huge influence after its publication. Did Jones know about it? read it? want to test it to see if or to demonstrate that, under the right conditions, most/all people will become fascists?

If anyone knows of such a connection, please add it to the article. Phantom in ca (talk) 20:20, 8 July 2018 (UTC)

Follow Up
What I miss in this entire article are two aspects: - How did parents and society respond to early after the experiment. For instance: Did they consider it ethical to conduct an experiment like this on children. Did parents withdraw their children from school; - What happened afterwards with the children that fell in the trap of this experiment. Did they have to leave school, or have to move because of how others "ethically" responded to them afterwards.

This article is incomplete, and in my opinion invalid, without a description the aftermath, of the direct, mid- and long-term consequences, of this experiment on those children and local society.77.60.121.89 (talk) 08:06, 31 January 2023 (UTC)
 * Those are good points and the article would be better with that information. Have you found any reliable sources that actually address those aspects? If so, please post them here. Schazjmd   (talk)  15:07, 31 January 2023 (UTC)