Talk:The Thirteenth Tribe/Archive 2

Fringe Theories
John Hopkins Medical School article: The Missing Link of Jewish European Ancestry: Contrasting the Rhineland and the Khazarian Hypotheses [http://arxiv.org/abs/1208.1092] by Eran Elhaik is being described as WP:Fringe. Can we discuss this article please. Carmelmount (talk) 19:06, 12 August 2012 (UTC) banned sock
 * As it was explained this theory is WP:FRINGE as it goes against mainstream scholarship so until it will be peer reviewed and published in scholarly journaly we can't include it.Moreover this article doesn't mention a book anyhow so including in is WP:OR.--Shrike (talk)/WP:RX 10:45, 24 August 2012 (UTC)
 * The issue is about the genetics of the Khazars that converted to Judaism. The articles deals with it so its not OR. I also do not agree with you that its WP:Fringe. Its the most recent study (6 Aug 2012) and therefore is very notable and its attributed to that study. I don't see that it "goes against mainstream scholarship", the source itself is a very reliable source. --Supreme Deliciousness (talk) 13:15, 24 August 2012 (UTC)
 * No the topic of the article is the book also the article was not peer reviewed so it WP:SPS--Shrike (talk)/WP:RX 14:32, 24 August 2012 (UTC)
 * What is the standard definition of peer reviewed? Is not publishing the results with John Hopkins Medical School (arguably one of the best medical schools in the country) considered peer reviewed?"However, in August 2012, a thorough genetic study which applied a wide range of population genetic analyses (principal component, biogeographical origin, admixture, identity by descent, allele sharing distance, and uniparental analyses) concluded that 'our findings support the Khazarian Hypothesis and portray the European Jewish genome as a mosaic of Caucasus, European, and Semitic ancestries, thereby consolidating previous contradictory reports of Jewish ancestry'" Carmelmount (talk) 06:58, 25 August 2012 (UTC) banned sock
 * Carmel, please cease the WP:OR. Per WP:BRD please gain consensus on this new material before re-inserting anything. Plot Spoiler (talk) 19:54, 27 August 2012 (UTC)
 * There is no OR. The section is about the genetics and the source is exactly about that. Consensus is based on the arguments, as no one has provided any valid arguments at the talkpage against the info then there is nothing more to discuss. --Supreme Deliciousness (talk) 20:01, 27 August 2012 (UTC)

Isn't this a pre-print? Tom Harrison Talk 20:07, 27 August 2012 (UTC)
 * This article is about the 13th tribe, not random theories about Khazars, of which there are dozens. The sources used in that section all referred specifically to the 13th Tribe and Koestler's theory. All except the new one. Plot Spoiler (talk) 20:13, 27 August 2012 (UTC)


 * There is absolutely nothing random here with this new genetics inclusion, because it is very relevant to the article, as it shows old inclusions about genetics in the article claiming Koestler was incorrect are flawed. The article now has more accuracy and balance (less bias one way) with the new inclusion of this new genetics study. I can understand politically why there would be a desire to suppress this new genetic evidence, because some people think it might suggest Jews do not have a historical, legal, genetic or biblical right to all the lands of Israel, however this is not the case, Jews have a legal right to Israel recognized by international law and via UN which gave all Diaspora Jews world wide, a democratic Jewish state and no one is ever going to take this away from us (unless they want us to open up a can of nuclear whoopass and get medieval on them). Moreover, genetic studies may show genetic admixture of Jews originating from the caucus Khazar region, but it also shows Arab blood from antiquity mixed in there, perhaps over the centuries countless Jews went the Khazarian empire and mixed with the locals. Any way you want to look at it. There is an unbroken genetic link of Jews to the middle east and historic Israel. Carmelmount (talk) 05:23, 28 August 2012 (UTC) banned sock
 * Thankyou for this contribution to the accuracy of the article. I agree with Supreme Deliciousness and Carmelmount that this can in no way be considered a self-published source nor fringe. And as it deals specifically with the central claim of Koestler's book, neither can it in any way that I can see be accurately described as Original research.
 * This article has long had compalints of bias and NPOV issues and the last comment to this one also alludes to perhaps the political reason why that may be. Allowing these attempst to keep this out of the article would give the impression that wiki can be subjected to censorship for perceived political reasons. Therefore I support the addition of this latest peer-reviewed genetic research.--Mystichumwipe (talk) 07:03, 28 August 2012 (UTC)
 * The source doesn't mention Koestler's theory or the subject of this article, the book The Thirteenth Tribe. Therefore it is OR. Your political statements are irrelevant here. Plot Spoiler (talk) 12:17, 28 August 2012 (UTC)
 * Perhaps you should actually read the abstract (see block quote below) as it references the Khazarian hypothesis. Then read accompanying PDF of the research article [http://arxiv.org/ftp/arxiv/papers/1208/1208.1092.pdf] as it references Koestler numerous times throughout the entire document: "The question of Jewish ancestry has been the subject of controversy for over two centuries and has yet to be resolved. The 'Rhineland Hypothesis' proposes that Eastern European Jews emerged from a small group of German Jews who migrated eastward and expanded rapidly. Alternatively, the 'Khazarian Hypothesis' suggests that Eastern European descended from Judean tribes who joined the Khazars, an amalgam of Turkic clans that settled the Caucasus in the early centuries CE and converted to Judaism in the 8th century. The Judaized Empire was continuously reinforced with Mesopotamian and Greco-Roman Jews until the 13th century. Following the collapse of their empire, the Judeo-Khazars fled to Eastern Europe. The rise of European Jewry is therefore explained by the contribution of the Judeo-Khazars. Thus far, however, their contribution has been estimated only empirically; the absence of genome-wide data from Caucasus populations precluded testing the Khazarian Hypothesis. Recent sequencing of modern Caucasus populations prompted us to revisit the Khazarian Hypothesis and compare it with the Rhineland Hypothesis. We applied a wide range of population genetic analyses - including principal component, biogeographical origin, admixture, identity by descent, allele sharing distance, and uniparental analyses - to compare these two hypotheses. Our findings support the Khazarian Hypothesis and portray the European Jewish genome as a mosaic of Caucasus, European, and Semitic ancestries, thereby consolidating previous contradictory reports of Jewish ancestry." There is no reason to suppress this factual scientific information very relevant to this article, except for biased political reasons, which are irrelevant here. Carmelmount (talk) 13:46, 28 August 2012 (UTC) banned sock
 * The excerpt you provided does not mention Koestler or Thirteenth Tribe by name, even once. Plot Spoiler (talk) 18:26, 28 August 2012 (UTC)

PlotSpoiler, could you please explain this:, What do you think the discussion above is? --Supreme Deliciousness (talk) 00:55, 29 August 2012 (UTC)
 * Last time I checked you need to leave edit summaries. You also mentioned nothing about adding POV or the Unbalanced templates to the page in your discussion remarks. Plot Spoiler (talk) 01:20, 29 August 2012 (UTC)
 * Feel free to re-add, provided there is corresponding explanation in edit summary and talk page. Plot Spoiler (talk) 01:23, 29 August 2012 (UTC)
 * No I dont. The discussion here explains why the tags were added. And you have participated here so you are fully aware of why they were added. Revert yourself immediately.--Supreme Deliciousness (talk) 01:30, 29 August 2012 (UTC)
 * You actually do need to explain yourself. You need to address policy for those templates. For the 'unbalanced template,' which source that discusses koestler and The 13th Tribe has been left out? Plot Spoiler (talk) 02:36, 29 August 2012 (UTC)

Khazar hypothesis
In August 2012, Johns Hopkins geneticist Eran Israeli-Elhaik published a study titled "The Missing Link of Jewish European Ancestry: Contrasting the Rhineland and the Khazarian Hypotheses" that shows compelling genetic evidence that support the Khazarian hypothesis. 72.53.146.220 (talk) 18:36, 6 December 2012 (UTC)
 * That Elhaik's article doesn't appear to discuss the topic of this article, which is the book The Thirteenth Tribe. Please review WP:NOR. Jayjg (talk) 03:44, 6 February 2013 (UTC)