Talk:The Threepenny Opera/Archive 1

Thanks
User:Ortolan88, thanks. Hyacinth 15:20, 27 Aug 2004 (UTC)


 * The line forms on the right, babe. Ortolan88 15:40, 27 Aug 2004 (UTC) Any time.

Fourpenny?
A question: Why is the Threepenny Opera called the Fourpenny Opera in France? ====> L'Opéra de quat'sous I have asked many people, but to no avail.


 * I believe it is because of idiom: in German, drei groschen- (three-groat); in English, thrupenny. The corresponding expression denoting of little montary account (hence cheapskate or cheapjack) in French is de quat'sous. Considering that a sou has always been a coin of little value (unlike the penny), quatre sous must really be an even measlier price of admission than any of the others.
 * Nuttyskin 23:49, 11 September 2006 (UTC)
 * Just to complicate matters, a groat was worth four pennies in Britain. This was archaic at the time Brecht was writing, and possibly even when the play was set, so it could have carried the wrong associations.  We are dealing with cultural associations here, not engaging in currency speculation. PatGallacher (talk) 18:18, 30 April 2008 (UTC)

Strand
A remark: The German version of Mack The Knife has this line: ... liegt ein toter Mann am Strand, which is translated as: ... a dead man is lying on the beach. Sure enough, the German word Strand means beach. But the song refers to the Strand, a London street. The play is situated in Soho!
 * The line is rendered correctly in the Ralph Manheim translation.Chowbok 15:28, 10 Jan 2005 (UTC)


 * Thanks a lot, really! Now I know. In fact, in the German version they do sing "Strand" with English pronounciation ("Stränd").. oh, and btw, in the German version, the piratemaid's city is shelled (wird beschießen die Stadt -- stark effect) --145.253.2.232 07:55, 4 October 2005 (UTC)


 * "And the ship with black sails, and with 50 cannons, will besiege the city". (Und das Schiff mit acht Segeln und mit fünfzig Kanonen wird beschießen die Stadt.)... Bad translation? The word acht means eight in German, not black.


 * The most famous translation is the poorly-done one by Mark Blitzstein, where the line is "And the ship, the Black Freighter," etc. The Manheim translation has "And the ship, with eight sails..." I'm not sure which translation has the line here about black sails. --Chowbok 01:54, 24 October 2005 (UTC)

I have changed it to eight. Not only is my German good enough to tell the difference between "schwarz" and "acht", the subtitles of the bfi release of the film confirmed this.

The songs
What are the names of all the songs sung in the Threepenny Opera? Most know "Mack the Knife" is one, but what are the rest?

I've now added a list of these - I hope this isn't a copyright violation... Bob aka Linuxlad 16:08, 10 February 2006 (UTC)

Musical numbers
@ Cielomobile, the score you are using can't be any good. At least the spellings "Ballade von der Sexuellen Hörigkeit", "Ballade vom Angenehmen Leben" and "Lied von der Unzulänglichkeit Menschlichen Strebens" are completely wrong, as adjectives are never capitalized in German. And—other than in English—there is no general capitalization of words in headlines in German. Look at Die Dreigroschenoper in German wikipedia for a complete and correct list of the German song titles according to Brecht's piece. — I know there are some variants between the piece (or the libretto) and the score (it's "Die Moritat von Mackie Messer" in the libretto but "Die Moritat vom Mackie Messer" in the score), but I don't have a score at hand to check them all out. --FordPrefect42 22:37, 12 September 2006 (UTC)


 * I can scan the score for you if I must. You may be right about the capitals, seeing as the titles are in all capitals on my score, but I can assure you that I have the original score. Once I have scanned it, I will let you know and you can decide for yourself what revisions are appropriate. -- Reilly 00:22, 13 September 2006 (UTC)

I have a copy of the original score, as written by Weill, and I have input the correct spelling, punctuation and such. The titles are in all capital letters, however, so I'll leave the capitalization to those who speak German better than me, but please do not change the placement of hyphons, etc. I know it may not be "proper German," but it's what is written on the score, and it should be respected. Keep in mind that it was written almost 80 years ago, and standard conventions for grammar most certainly have changed. -- Reilly 00:48, 13 September 2006 (UTC)


 * Okay, thank you for your answer. If the erroneous capitalization does not come from the score, I will not blame it any longer ;-) No need to scan the complete score, just tell us which edition you are using. In my latest edit of the article, I fixed the spelling of the song titles according to the German book edition of the play (edition suhrkamp 229), but this still bears some problems, as
 * some titles may differ in the play and the score (like "Die Moritat von/vom Mackie Messer" as mentioned before)
 * some songs have no title at all in the play (like "Liebeslied" or "Barbara-Song")
 * the order of the musical numbers seems to differ in various editions of the play.
 * I am not sure yet, how all this is presented best in the article. Maybe a table would be a good idea? --FordPrefect42 07:13, 13 September 2006 (UTC)
 * PS: please put new sections always at the end of a talk page. Thank you!


 * I have a photocopy of the score, but I'll let you know once I find out which edition it is (i.e. once I get my hands on the original, which my music teacher has). Reilly 02:11, 14 September 2006 (UTC)


 * Translations seems well to me; I made only little changes. - The big letters are made by the editor of the print. - Capitalization doesn't matter. - "Moritat vom Mackie Messer" would be bad german. Please don't use it. - Th.Linke (talk) 15:46, 20 July 2008 (UTC)

Inspiration for the name Macheath?
Mac was a highwayman, and one of the most popular hangouts for such men was Blackheath, a suburb of London. The place must have been an inspiration for the character, but I wouldn't want to add that into the article without the proper citation, as it'd be OR.

Note: also posted on Talk:The Beggar's Opera. -- Ci e lomobile talk / contribs 07:13, 5 January 2007 (UTC)

Recent changes
I've partially reverted some of the rather drastic changes to the article today, for instance the whole musical numbers section (I have the German score; trust that my names are correct). If you want to revert my changes, please discuss it here first, and provide some valid reasoning. -- Ci e lomobile talk / contribs 03:49, 20 February 2007 (UTC)
 * In this case, the score is certainly not the ultimate standard, because it does not contain the complete play. Better stick to the script. --FordPrefect42 18:58, 20 February 2007 (UTC)
 * The score should be the ultimate standard when it comes to the names of musical numbers. People know the songs by their shorted names, not by such phrases as "Und gibt’s auch kein Schriftstück vom Standesamt." That means absolutely nothing to most English speakers. "Liebeslied" is at least recognizable. -- Ci e lomobile talk / contribs 00:32, 21 February 2007 (UTC)

English translations
I've tried to add English translations to the musical numbers as best as I could, but I'm by no means a fluent speaker of German, so please correct me if you can. I only ask that you don't use the Blitzstein translation or something of the like, because I know German well enough to see that "Kannonensong" does not mean "Army Song." -- Ci e lomobile talk / contribs 00:51, 21 February 2007 (UTC)

Look above - Musical Numbers - Th.Linke (talk) 14:48, 20 July 2008 (UTC)

The Films
There should be a section on the pair of films by Georg Wilhelm Pabst - as they differ markedly from the play (and somewhat from each other). Jackiespeel 17:47, 18 June 2007 (UTC)
 * You can always be bold and create it yourself! -- Cielomobile talk / contribs 18:57, 18 June 2007 (UTC)

History of productions
I think it would be helpful to have a brief history of the early productions of the show. When was the first English translation? (Was it the NY production?) When was the first production in the UK? When did the play first become successful outside Germany? etc etc There is a lot that would be interesting to read about. I am not an expert and cannot help directly. But I think more history would be a good addition. Davidpatrick 04:56, 21 August 2007 (UTC)


 * I've added something, though IMO this article already concentrates too much on peripheral content. We need more about the original production, early recordings etc. The German Wikipedia page is much better on this. -- Kleinzach 07:20, 21 August 2007 (UTC)

Pirate Jenny was sung by Jenny, not Polly
I don't remember enough of it to correct the paragraph, but I remember that Lotte Lenya played Jenny in both the original and the Marc Blitzstein musical, and sung Seerauber Jenny as well as Pirate Jenny. 75.111.209.91 23:51, 13 November 2007 (UTC)
 * Mixed up something? The name of the character is simply Jenny. The song is named Pirate Jenny (or Seeräuber-Jenny in German). In the original play it is sung by Polly. In some productions the song is given to Jenny, but that is already mentioned in the article. No need to correct anything. BTW: you actually remember Lotte Lenya playing Jenny in the 1928 premiere? I doubt that ... ;-) --FordPrefect42 00:14, 14 November 2007 (UTC)

Well, on my recording, I have at hand here, it's sung twice, by Polly and by Jenny. Th.Linke (talk) 14:15, 20 July 2008 (UTC)

Recordings
I added the 1989 recording. - Th.Linke (talk) 14:51, 20 July 2008 (UTC)

Setting
I am unclear about the setting being "mildly anachronistic". If the setting is Victorian London, then there is nothing muddled about the reprieve coming from the Queen at the end. (Although you can get very muddled sometimes, as my father put it "I think people who say God Save The Queen are old-fashioned.") PatGallacher (talk) 17:05, 30 April 2008 (UTC)
 * Sjc added that, not sure what he meant. I'll ask him to explain.&mdash; Chowbok  ☠  17:51, 30 April 2008 (UTC)

Hi, sorry about the delay in getting back on this, but there a number of elements which are fundamentally anachronistic. Without getting down to cases, I can only opine that in my mind at the time of writing was how much more the backdrop is ineffably more the London of John Gay than that purported, of Victoriana. Frequently throughout the play these worlds collide. This is not necessarily to the detraction of the play itself, and one senses that this is done deliberately to reinforce the alienation which Brecht was striving for in epic theatre. I can do a case by case analysis if necessary, but tbh you could prove anachronism in more or less any work of fiction by this means. If you need further clarification, I would be more than happy to oblige. Sjc (talk) 07:07, 30 May 2008 (UTC)

As a footnote I should add that either someone agrees with me or journalistic plagiarism knows no boundaries: Sjc (talk) 07:30, 30 May 2008 (UTC)

Opera
Why did you restore the opera categories, Kleinzach? It's not an opera. -- Cielomobile talk / contribs 08:13, 7 June 2007 (UTC)


 * I wasn't aware this was controversial. We are preparing for a bot run. However now I am here I see that not only the Operas category has been removed, but also the Ballad operas cat. I don't understand why. The Threepenny Opera is a Songspiel, a hybrid form, but that's no reason not to list it as an opera. The Oxford Dictionary of Opera lists it as an opera. Multiple cats are no problem so can we please put the Operas/Ballad Operas cats back now? Thanks. -- Kleinzach 10:04, 7 June 2007 (UTC)


 * The Grove Dictionary of Opera lists it as a "play with music," not an opera. Its predecessor The Beggars' Opera is indeed a ballad opera, but having performed in Threepenny myself, I can state with reasonable confidence that it is not any sort of opera anymore than Cabaret is. As I gather from the article on ballad operas, they are more like the 18th century equivalent of a modern musical revue, with the music taken from popular songs of the time (but I do not claim to be an expert on the subject). As far as I know, Weill did not do this; all of the music (save one of the songs, which was taken from the original Gay work) is original. As I wrote on your talk page, I'm fine with having the article in Category:German-language operas as there is no equivalent for musicals, but (comment rescinded because there is a Category:German musicals) it really doesn't make any sense to place it in Category:Operas or Category:Ballad operas and would only confuse readers. -- Cielomobile talk / contribs 17:52, 7 June 2007 (UTC)


 * The Grove Dictionary of Opera always tries to follow the original designation of the work, hence only a small percentage of the operas listed are called operas. (The usage of the word opera has never been so general in Italy, France and Germany as it is now in England/America.) There is an article on this work in Grove, so the editors of that work clearly felt that it came within the general umbrella of opera as I do. -- Kleinzach 23:17, 7 June 2007 (UTC)


 * I do feel that the logic that if Grove include it then it falls within a broad definition of opera makes sense. --Peter cohen 09:23, 8 June 2007 (UTC)


 * I don't really care what categories this goes in, but it seems to me that if this it would never have occurred to anyone to consider this an opera if "Opera" wasn't in the title.&mdash; Chowbok  ☠  18:36, 8 June 2007 (UTC)


 * It and the orchestral suite from it are recorded by quite a few opera and classical ensembles . (And yes ENO have done some Sondheim, but that is recent. But the 1966 Frankfurt recording is long before opera houses sow the need to be populist.) It seems to be something like Porgy and Bess and especially Summertime where claims are made on it my different traditions and I don't see a good reason to refuse the right of any one tradition to include it. --Peter cohen 19:14, 8 June 2007 (UTC)

I have to wonder if any of those who call for it to be included in the opera category have actually seen Threepenny performed or heard the music. Just using the tertiary sources available to us, it can be argued either way. If we examine all the individual characteristics of the work and compare them to the characteristics of opera and musicals, however, I think it becomes clear that it is not an opera (the use of the word "opera" is satirical, of course...there is a speech just before the last finale in which Peachum mockingly calls the show an opera: "This is an opera, and we mean to do you well..."). Don't bother calling OR; WP:NOR refers to original research in the content of an article. Anyway, this is sort of a silly debate and takes time away from other pursuits, so I will hold my tongue (fingers?) henceforth. -- Cielomobile talk / contribs 19:51, 8 June 2007 (UTC)
 * Spoken dialogue takes the place of recitative.
 * The music is not classical art music in the sense that the music of opera is. For one, the work calls for a small jazz ensemble. This could be disputed, admittedly—the music certainly has its complexities—but I think that it is clear that the music more closely resembles that of a modern musical than that of an opera.
 * The actors would tend to be trained as actors more than singers. The lead role of Macheath, for instance, is more demanding as an actor than as a singer (at least in my opinion, but I don't think anyone who is familiar with the show would dispute this).
 * It is performed in musical theater venues like off-Broadway, not in opera houses.
 * When performed, it is almost always done in translation when not performed in Germany.


 * Yes, I know 3pOpera well. I have the first recording.
 * Spoken dialogue is used in many operas: Carmen, The Magic Flute, or to be technical Opéra comique, Singspiele etc.
 * Singer-actors are also common in the opera world (Lotte Lehmann, "For me acting was always the main thing.") Teresa Stratas, an opera singer, specialized in Weill.
 * Countless operas have been performed outside opera houses! Incidentally I've been in the Theater am Schiffbauerdamm. I believe it was originally built for operetta.
 * Re translation you may be right, but since the article emphasizes NY/London productions to such an extraordinary degree (why doesn't it mention Strehler?), it's difficult to know whether this is still so true today. Anyway it's not relevant to the main question of 3pOpera as a modern opera.
 * Now can I turn your question around and ask you a question? How much 20th-century opera have you seen? -- Kleinzach 11:38, 9 June 2007 (UTC)
 * I think the current categorisation is untenable - it's among the Operas by Kurt Weill, but not an opera? It's categorised twice as a musical (German musicals, 1928 musicals), which it is emphatically not. I suggest either the (probably rather radical) categorisation of a Play with music and drop all opera/operetta categories, or acknowledge that opera is a broad church and Die Dreigroschenoper is part of it. Anything else is counter-intuitive for the Wikipedia user searching for it. Also, the work is not only listed in the Oxford and Grove dictionaries of opera, András Batta's Opera (Könemann) lists it as well.
 * I suggest to remove all operetta categories urgently and reinstate the opera categories. Michael Bednarek 13:54, 9 June 2007 (UTC)


 * I hope Cielomobile will agree to us putting it back in Category:Ballad operas as per the article on ballad operas in the Oxford Dictionary of Opera. -- Kleinzach 14:09, 9 June 2007 (UTC)


 * I don't think the Dreigroschenoper really fits the description of Ballad Opera, and the Category:Ballad operas contains currently only three works, one of which is, rather neatly, The Beggar's Opera; all three are nowhere near the importance of this work by Brecht/Weill and all three are also categorised as Category:Opera. So I don't object to adding Category:Ballad operas.
 * However, that category is clearly a sub-category of Category:Opera so I again urge to add that category again and remove all operatta categories. BTW, the Threepenny Opera is also listed in List_of_operas. Michael Bednarek 08:26, 10 June 2007 (UTC)


 * A consensus seems ot be forming that it should be in Category:Opera, as well as non-operatic categories. I am therefore added the opera category to it. --Peter cohen 10:26, 10 June 2007 (UTC)


 * Actually I think it should be in Category:Operas. Category:Opera is the top level (theoretically) empty cat. -- Kleinzach 10:45, 10 June 2007 (UTC)


 * Oops! Well spotted! --Peter cohen 10:50, 10 June 2007 (UTC)

Alright, I don't agree with its categorization under Category:Operas or any of the other opera categories, but I won't fight the consensus. -- Cielomobile talk / contribs 04:03, 11 June 2007 (UTC)