Talk:The Wachowskis/Archive 1

College History
The page says one of the brothers dropped out of college after "flunking a test." This wording is misleading. The Wired article the info comes from only says that a teacher said he "botched a quiz," not that it was a "test" (always of bigger significance to one's final grade for a course in America than a "quiz"-- sometimes teachers even give quizzes as self-tests that don't count toward your grade- that's a lot less common with a "test," which is usually longer + contains more material than a "quiz") or that he "flunked" (failed). Also, the Wired article doesn't indicate that the botched quiz had anything to do with him leaving college, just that it was something one of his former professors said about them. In America botched quizzes hardly ruin a college career and I daresay never cause people to leave college, especially when they are "a leading student" in that class, which is also something the article said about him (despite the botched quiz). 67.85.225.175 16:40, 29 October 2007 (UTC)Swan

Error in phrasing?
I noticed that under the "Transgenderism" section, there is a sentence saying that Linda Wachowski has changed his sex and is now Lana Wachowski. That's false, isn't it? Larry Wachowski changed his sex, and is now known either as Linda or Lana, I'm not sure which is correct. 76.112.9.94 06:06, 31 August 2007 (UTC)

The line that says Larry Wachowski has changed his sex to a woman should be deleted. Both the Cinematical article and the Perez Hilton post were originated by a blogger called Rated-M who does not credit his sources and makes claims that the Wachowskis will be doing press, yet it is widely known that they do not speak to the press. This should be deleted until it can be corroborated by more credible sources. Crispyone 22:23, 5 September 2007 (UTC)

integralnaked.org 'recommended' link
I've moved the link to integralnaked.org to the bottom of the page, removed the bold and the 'recommended'. It seems that to actually view the interview on that site, you need to register and pay a fee of $10. Seems as if the link is just for advertising - it certainly doesn't belong on an encyclopedia that endorses freedom of information. --Dom 13:46, 21 Jan 2005 (UTC)

Transexualism?
Where does this stuff come from? It reads very much like a magazine article. john 06:39 22 May 2003 (UTC)

http://www.filmbug.com/db/341821 has the same content, not sure which copied which Edward 11:25, 21 May 2004 (UTC)

Filmbug clearly cites this wikipedia site at the bottom of the page.

It seems as if the author of this article has no idea about the entirety of Mr. Wachowski's decisions, and is just spewing gossip-level crap. Hmm...

Are there any serious sources about Larry's transexualism? Did he ever admitted it himself? --Conti|&#9993; 18:54, 23 Jul 2004 (UTC)

Yes, seeing how many sites assume high-integrity of this article by re-posting it under the GNU Free Documentation License, it's very important that it doesn't cite non-concrete or unverifiable sources, which seems to be how much of the internet gossip on this subject has been propagated. Use of the {dubious}} or {disputed}} tags should have been used here from the beginning. --Nectarflowed 23:13, 19 Sep 2004 (UTC)

I've removed the summation of the gossip regarding an alleged interest in transvestitism or transexualism on Larry's part. It doesn't appear to be substantiated, and seems to probably be just meaningless gossip. The summation read:

"The following year, gossip emerged suggesting that Larry Wachowski had interest in transvestitism. However, references to this are controversial. It appears to have spread fast on the internet, such as the online edition of the newspaper the Arizona Republic writing "when you're touted as one-half of the creative genius behind the science fiction movie of the decade, morphing between the sexes is probably just another research trip."  However, there are inconsistencies that should be noted, such as that some references claim he prefers the name "Linda," and some claim he prefers the name "Lana."  Additionally, there's been much-picked-up reference to a Chicago Sun-Times article on the subject, but there doesn't appear to be direct evidence of this article existing.  Finally, when considering this topic, it should be noted that it is speculation and rumour until directly commented on by Larry Wachowski."

--Nectarflowed 01:33, 8 Oct 2004 (UTC)

There is in fact a semi-official confirmation of this rumors, since April 2005. I met the Brothers on the set of 'V for Vendetta', and as I called her Larry, she corrected me: "I'm Linda". A detailed report is under http://www.matrix-architekt.de/news_meeting.htm --84.185.219.109 14:57, 5 May 2005
 * That link is in German; to read it translated, I'd recommend using .  Along with the Gothamist photos linked to below, I think this looks convincing.--Nectarflowed (talk) 20:01, 6 May 2005 (UTC)


 * Andy jokingly refers to himself as "Jerry" as he calls Larry "Linda". Is it possible it was just a joke?  Sounded like one from the transcript. Max314 (talk) 14:25, 20 April 2009 (UTC)


 * I think the transexualism should be removed considering it is libel. It is also character assasination. If it is factual I say leave it but until then I feel that it should be removed.

JJstroker

The article in Rolling Stone [] cited on the page explains a lot. They are certainly a creadable source, and they cite lots of people, enough that they'd be hit for libel if it was untrue.

Sometime, I'd assume when he is officially out, or an official name change, the page should be reorganized a little, maybe separate pages for each Wachowski, as the "Wachowski Brothers" would cease to exist. The LGBT topics will need to be added, stuff like that. Any thoguhts on when we should consider Lary/Linda to be a transsexual? Would she have to openly identify as a woman, or would the Linda thing be enough.

The license is probably inapropriate, but here's the picture of Lary at Cannes: [].

There's certainly a lot of biographical info on the Rolling Stone link, some of it is probably encyclopaedic.

Dec 2006


 * With the strict guidelines on biographies of living persons it would be best to wait until either he officially says something or there is a credible source saying "yes, this is definitely true" and even then we would have to say that "sources say" not "he is". Konman72 21:03, 30 December 2006 (UTC)


 * I agree with Konman72. There needs to be some credibility here.  The prose would also need to be in a neutral style.Anthonzi (talk) 02:59, 28 November 2007 (UTC)

As a filmmaker knowing the ins and outs of IMDB, the profiles on there are maintained by the respective persons, so the fact that Lana's page is indeed Lana can be considered first hand confirmation that it is without a doubt no longer Larry Wachowski. I believe this should be updated ASAP.

Linda Wachowski Page?

 * I made an article about it at Linda Wachowski already... How would you handle that? --Myria 20:56, 19 Oct 2004 (UTC)  [The Linda Wachowski page is currently a redirect; to view its content go here]


 * I've made it a redirect to this page again. --Conti|&#9993; 17:10, Oct 20, 2004 (UTC)


 * Larry Wachowski is a figure known for his intellectual work (in the Matrix films). Mention of rumoured interest in transvestitism or transexualism isn't directly relevant to an encyclopedia article on a public intellectual, although maybe could be relevant in the context of him as a public figure.  And some readers are interested in it, which I think ties into the purpose of Wikipedia: organizing and providing access to the world's information in a high quality manner --letting people use it in whatever way is useful to them.  Though, without official comment from Wachowski, all the information that is available appears to be just rumour.


 * For more information on this topic, I'd recommend the following articles (with photos) that seem to sum up the issue well (although they are from Nov. 2003) and offer interesting points:


 * Larry Wachowski Looks Womanly from the news site the Gothamist.
 * Sex change for Larry Wachowski? also from the Gothamist.


 * Quote from the second article: "One final thought: in every photo I've ever seen of Larry Wachowski, and in the interview footage he submitted to (along with his brother, Andy) for the MATRIX REVISITED DVD, he's always seemed somber and vaguely pained -- half-frowning in a thoughtful, weight-of-the-world, heavy-cat sort of way. But he appears to be sailing on some kind of euphoric high in that TIME magazine photo. He looks happy. That should count for something. ...


 * "Gothamist is intrigued by this information... as an example of something that people don't tend to talk or think about being brought to the fore because a celebrity is involved... We already noted how the Matrix films could be read with a whole new subtext with the news of the [female] dominatrix [companion seen with Larry at film premieres]."
 * --Nectarflowed 02:31, 12 Nov 2004 (UTC)


 * I agree with you that this whole issue might be worth mentioning, if there are credible sources for these rumours, but I do not think they deserve their own article. This article is still pretty short, and it would do him no harm to add to it rather than to split this short article into even shorter ones. --Conti|&#9993; 21:46, Nov 12, 2004 (UTC)

Plagarism Lawsuit
We've been discussing the Sophia (or is it Sofia?) Stewart case over at Talk:The Matrix. At this point the lawsuit is apparently going forward but I'm of the opinion that the matter should be limited to that article until the case is concluded, or at least until some reputable sources start to put forward some facts. Right now, there's a lot of chatter going around concerning this story and 90% of it (by my non-scientific analysis ^_^) is highly POV.

If someone wants to amend this article and then link to stories on the case, I suppose that's fair too. But what I deleted was a POV link on the bottom of the page without explanation. --Feitclub 02:30, Dec 8, 2004 (UTC)


 * It said on this page "Full details on both claims can be found in the article on The Matrix", referring to both the Stewart case and Grant Morrison's claims re: The Invisibles. Stewart is not mentioned on the Matrix page, and Morrison is only mentioned in passing. So I'm removing this reference. Pearce.duncan 06:21, 13 August 2007 (UTC)

I don't understand why plagiarism claims that are dismissed are listed. innocent until proven guilty? whats the point of showing unfounded claims. if the accuser cant cite their evidence, why should wikipedia cite their claim? seems like advertising for the accusers here. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 75.61.85.151 (talk) 17:16, August 27, 2007 (UTC)

'Primavista - online' ?
Does anybody know this thing from the filmography? I'm dealing with the Brothers for some time now, and I never saw it anywhere mentioned, except here... --84.185.219.109 14:57, 5 May 2005

I don't know, I've never seen it either. I'm deleting it and if anyone can provide a link or source, feel free to put it back on.

Transexualism
Dudes, that guy is like a total tranny.

Totally!

So why the fear against transsexualism? Why not mention it on the FREE ENCYCLOPEDIA, huh? Is it fear of the more advanced lifestyles? Or is it just plain hate? --Anon1

Hate?


 * I think it's for his protection. You don't have to shout and spread it around! --Anon2


 * Larry's transsexualism should really be covered. To do other wise would fail neutral point of view, as Anon1 points out.--Nectar T 03:54, 9 October 2005 (UTC)


 * Out of respect for the one involved, the article should either find and source some declaration on on ( Larry | Lana | Linda )'s part or make clear that no such personal declaration can be found. His/her/hir declared intentions and preferences (or the absence thereof) should eclipse all other considerations in such matters as usage of pronouns and gender-specifying words, name, and even the application of labels such as "transsexual", "transgender", "cross dresser", &c.  Furthermore, I have, for similar reasons, a strong objection to using the name "Lana Wachowski" as the title of the section in question.  --7Kim 21:08, 11 June 2007 (UTC)

Tranvestite in Rolling Stone
If anyone has seen the latest copy of Rolling Stone there is a feature about him detailing his private life. in it are interviews with a few people who claim Larry is a cross dresser who frequents transexual bars in LA with his girlfriend. However their is no mention that he has had actual surgery on his body to become a woman. -(Brodey)

some new film?
i have heard that wachowski bros. are directing some new film, is that true?

=
============== Here's an article from the New York Daily News copied March 18, 2006: 

Larry to be muy Linda? Better stop calling them the Wachowski brothers. We hear "Matrix" co-creator Larry Wachowski is ready for the sex-change operation that will finalize his conversion to a woman named Linda.

Last May, he wore women's earrings at "The Matrix Reloaded" premiere. At the time, the estranged husband of an alleged Los Angeles dominatrix told newspapers that Wachowski was a client of his wife. The source said he had seen Larry "in her bondage room...lying there in a dress, no panties and a blond wig."
 * "At the time, the estranged husband of an alleged Los Angeles dominatrix told newspapers that Wachowski was a client of his wife." On Vh1's "100 Greatest Red Carpet Moments," Larry/Linda made it into the list by showing up at the Matrix premiere in Westwood looking 'a "little feminine" and his date was (according to the celebrity magazine writer commenting on the moment)"a well known dominatrix in Los Angeles." The woman is seen dressed in black, blonde hair, red lipstick, and holding hands with Larry/Linda.--162.80.36.13 21:43, 26 April 2007 (UTC)

Several "longtime friends" say Larry - who is in the middle of a divorce with his wife, Thea Bloom - is now ready for the operation, reports the Chicago Sun Times.

The agent for Larry and his brother and collaborator, Andy Wachowski, did not return calls yesterday

Polish-American
Aside from the name, does anyone have a source for this? Mad Jack O&#39;Lantern 21:33, 2 May 2006 (UTC)

The Wired article that a lot of this article's info comes from states that they're Polish-American. I just read it this morning, and it's like the third hit on Google for "Wachowski brothers." After just having quickly read the article, it's unclear in my memory whether it was an interview with someone who knew them, or just written for some reason in a question-and-answer style, but without an interview. Either way, it wasn't written well for what it was supposed to be- as an interview, it was like the interviewee was reading his shit off of a card; lots of facts at his fingertips. Pretty weird. 67.85.225.175 16:21, 29 October 2007 (UTC)Swan

Why is the jewish reference removed?

Criticism Section
Lots of original research, uncited claims and NPOV errors. Get it fixed soon or I'm deleting it. Konman72 08:25, 11 June 2006 (UTC)

wachowski siblings
the page title needs to be changed, whether you agree with transsexuals or not. (68.162.180.95)


 * I thought that too, well jokingly. Their credits and I assume part of their company name is actually "The Wachowski brothers", so until they change from "The Wachowski brothers" to "The Wachowski siblings" on their credits, movies and their work in general, it is fair to say it should be kept how it is. If it can be confirmed that one of them is now a girl, like for sure solid he had the change AND wants to be known as a girl, then certainly a note at the top would be very helpful, like "although they are known as The Wachowski brothers..." as the first line, if you know what I mean. JayKeaton 16:09, 30 August 2006 (UTC)


 * Yes! " until they change (their name) " ... That's the key rght there.  Pgc512 18:09, 30 August 2006 (UTC)


 * I think it should be two separated articles: Andy Wachowski and Larry Wachowski, and, if it is needed, make Larry Wachowski a redirect to Linda Wachowski. --Conker the squirrel 16:46, 10 September 2006 (UTC)

Lesbian Obsession
I just noticed that these two guys seem to have a sort of obsession with lesbians - so I came here to confirm it myself and learned that there's a great deal of people saying Larry is transexual. I'm not making a connection between the two but both are news to me. As for my opinion with their obsession it starts with watching V For Vendetta today as today is November 5. I noticed the lesbian relationship and notably that kiss is really drawn out. It led me to remember that incredibly long and overdone lesbian kiss in their game Enter The Matrix. At that point I remembered them saying in an interview in special features for The Matrix that they couldn't get any funding at all for the Matrix until studios had seen them direct something on a much less budget. All in all studios didn't want to risk millions of dollars on a movie, much less trilogy, unless these two newcomers could prove they could direct. The brothers then wrote and directed Bound, which I have yet to see - nor have any desire to, which also I read features a very promenant lesbian relationship. Maybe all of this is worth noting - it does seem to indicate that these two guys are pretty much like a lot of fanboys except that they have the budget to make movies about what they want to see. (That's why I think that Club Hell scene was in Matrix Revolutions. I know guys like that would never dare step foot in a place like that - I wouldn't!)


 * While much of their work undeniably focuses on fetiches, I'm afraid you're wrong about V For Vendetta as the lesbian relationship was already present in the original work by Alan Moore and David Lloyd, from which the movie was adapted. Tiago_Jacinto 23:44, 9 January 2007 (UTC)


 * Many men have some sort of obsession with lesbians; there are jokes on TV shows about it (e.g. on the Simpsons, Ned Flanders dates an actress. He doesn't want her breasts to be seen in a movie, so the compromise is a lesbian kiss (the implication is that the same group of people will be entertained).  On House, one joke is "watching The L Word on mute."  On Just Shhot Me, David Spade's character is seeking a threesome.  He, and every man he tells, consider it every mans fantasy) —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 69.12.143.197 (talk) 21:43, 15 January 2007 (UTC).

Well Linda is probably a lesbian herself, so it's not surprising she made movies about women like her.--Sonjaaa 08:23, 5 April 2007 (UTC)

I guess I can see the argument, but I don't think this merits a subsection on the page. Homosexuality was taboo and almost unspoken of even a few decades ago. Now that it's less taboo-- but not even totally out into the light and totally unstigmatized-- it's only natural that artists would show it in their work a little more than they did in the past. Lots of love scenes in movies really focus on a kiss or draw out a love scene, so I'm really skeptical that there could be some depiction of a kiss that crosses some borderline in obsession with lesbianism. In sum, I wouldn't say lesbianism is highlighted enough in their work to even merit calling it a theme of their work; I think it's just something they're not afraid to show. Homosexuals are about ten percent of the population; blacks are about ten percent of the population. Having a lesbian character in almost every piece of work you do is no more an obsession with lesbianism than having a black character in every piece of work you do would be obsession with blacks. It's just realistic. As of yet, I've only heard of one piece of work they've done where a lesbian is even a main character (Bound). Much less anything more that merits actually calling it an interest, and pushing past even that to call it an obsession. Big 'so what.'67.85.225.175 16:30, 29 October 2007 (UTC)Swan

In my opinion the comments here are just an abuse of Wikipedia to bash people in the discussion section with stuff you can't get away with putting on the article page. Particularly offensive is the line about the brothers trying to do tittilating fanboy shit. Any chance they had some lesbian friends in college, felt sorry for them because they were members of a persecuted and discriminated against minority, and tried to give more exposure to lesbians as people in their films just to help out lesbians' position in society in general? Looks to me like this is a case of nice guys getting hit over the head for being nice guys by a bunch of conservative jackasses. I remember the scene from V for Vendetta about the lesbians being a particularly humanizing and sensitive subplot. I personally didn't see it as titilation or fan-service at all. I'm not moved at the movies a lot but personally I found it pretty sad. It was a little fable that distilled the history of persecution against homosexuals into one little segment a few minutes long and showed that they are people who don't deserve it. By including that one little segment in their film they did something more noble and that was a bigger blow for human rights than most people will do in a lifetime. Probably you people just have a chip on your shoulder because Larry is dating a hot dominatrix and pulling a wild practical joke on everybody about going transexual while he's doing it, probably just to amuse her, and all your asses wish you could allow yourself to get involved with someone like that but you're too scared of your parents, you psycho preacher and you boss to ditch the psycho conservative bitch you're with. 67.85.225.175 19:15, 29 October 2007 (UTC)Swan

In V for Vendatta, the Wachowski brothers directed Natalie Portman-- an extremely beautiful woman. If they were pervy fanboys, they could have easily written a contrived scenario into the film to get her into the most revealing state of undress she would have been willing to do on film. They didn't. Hell, they had her character at some kind of a fascist secret police detention center, at they didn't do anything like that. Not even a rape scene there. And the attempted rape scene at the beginning of the film is nothing like "rape porn"-- Natalie doesn't start to get her blouse torn off, or anything like that. Seems to me the Wachowski films respect women, not the opposite. Just look at Trinity, the strong mother of Nat P's charactacter in V, and the lesbian subplot (as I accurately described it above) in V. 67.85.225.175 00:23, 30 October 2007 (UTC) Swan

Need to respect Linda
Now that Linda is clearly living as female, we need to give her the respect and decency she deserves as a woman. I have updated the article to reflect standard writing style used with regard to transsexual people. She should be regarded as a person and as a woman foremost.--Sonjaaa 08:22, 5 April 2007 (UTC)


 * Can you please cite sources? I'd like to use them for the German Wikipedia. I haven't yet found credible sources, which clearly states that Larry has become Linda. I do not doubt that Larry/Linda has/had interest in this transition, but if it is really completed yet... --84.227.48.143 18:15, 8 April 2007 (UTC)


 * I've been reading up a bit on this and it would appear that her name is Lana, not Linda. Could some one confirm her name?--NobleWarrior 19:31, 8 April 2007 (UTC)


 * It doesn't matter, there is no citation to a reliable source even stating for certain that Larry went through with the sex change. Changing the article like that was reckless and irresponsible. Konman72 02:39, 9 April 2007 (UTC)


 * I tried to add some reliable information on the sex-change claims in a separate paragraph with citations. Sorry for the bad English & formatting, I'm in a hurry... --84.227.162.149 11:33, 9 April 2007 (UTC)


 * That was really good work. The major problem with all of this is that there is a lot of speculation and rumor. As long as we report it as such, as you have done, then we are fine. However, to report it as truth and then to go as far as to change the name throughout the article, without any official word on the matter, is going way too far and outside the bounds of Wikipedia. Konman72 14:06, 9 April 2007 (UTC)


 * I don´t think that is transexualism at all. Just a case of fetishim. He just like to dress a girl and, maybe, and maybe, called like a girl. I can´t see him like a tranvestite, at best a cross dresser. Daniel de França 13:41, 20 April 2007 (UTC)

Biography
Do they have their roots in Poland?
 * I won't bite on that one.--203.2.182.254 00:03, 28 May 2007 (UTC)

On the subject of Larry's trans status ...
I am noticing a great deal of sloppiness in in terminology concerning this subject.

I propose that we replace every instance of sex change with gender transition. Sex change is a vague term that can mean anything or nothing, but carries with it a strong connotation of seeking sex reassignment surgery. If such intentions have been declared and such declarations can be cited, then the subject of the article is unquestionably a transsexual and that term should be used. Gender transition can encompass a great deal, including legal name change, 24/7 life as the target gender, pronoun shift, etc. Sex reassignment surgery is not necessarily the intent, the point, or even an option. Many trans people have opted out of genital surgery.

I cannot stress this firmly enough: (Larry | Lana | Linda)'s personal declaration of intent and preference in name, pronoun, and identity label (if any) must supersede all other considerations. Absent a personal declaration (which I expect to be both reported in this article and referenced), out of consideration for a living human being undergoing a difficult and life-changing experience, we must be respectful and do nothing to foreclose her/his/hir options or impose labels that may not apply. At the very least, we must clearly state that no such personal declaration or disclosure has occurred.

An interesting twist is the Hollywood aspect: Once an actor has been registered with the Screen Actor's Guild under a particular name, that name may never under any circumstances be changed with respect to the SAG -- marriage, religious conversion, gender transition, it does not matter. If similar standards apply to screenwriters, directors, and/or producers, Larry Wachowski is officially Larry Wachowski now and forever in the context of the filmmaking profession, and the Wachowski Brothers are officially the Wachowski Brothers now and forever.--7Kim 21:38, 11 June 2007 (UTC)


 * That can't be right. Lots of Screen Actors Guild members have changed their names under which they are billed. For example, Patty Duke was billed as Patty Duke Astin during her marriage to John Astin, then went back to Patty Duke after their divorce, and she was president of the Screen Actors Guild. Roseanne Barr started out billed under that name, then changed her name to Roseanne Arnold when she married Tom Arnold, then just used her first name for a while after their divorce, and now uses the name Roseanne Barr again. Courteney Cox changed her name to Courteney Cox Arquette. Nicolas Cage was credited by his birth name, Nicolas Coppola, for his first movie, Fast Times at Ridgemont High, then changed his surname. There must be dozens or hundreds more examples. That's not even getting into the fact that the Wachowskis have no acting credits and presumably are not SAG members, and the Hollywood guilds don't necessarily apply the same standards for how their members need to designate their names. For example, the Directors Guild of America formerly required its members either to be billed under their own names or as Alan Smithee, because the DGA believes that directors should be treated as having artistic responsibility for the movie, while the Writers Guild of America allows members to use a pseudonym, since they recognize that a writer's work can be changed beyond recognition. --Metropolitan90 02:00, 5 September 2007 (UTC)

Page move needed
I feel there's no need for a discussion for this, but would "Wachowskis" or "The Wachowskis" be preferred? - Zero1328 Talk? 09:55, 5 September 2007 (UTC)
 * Agreed. Although I think an article named The Wachowski Siblings might be a start until we find out how they're gonna bill themselves.  Or, split into seperate articles about each bro...um, sibling. --Bluorangefyre 14:36, 5 September 2007 (UTC)
 * Before I wrote my previous message I saw an article mentioning that they'll bill themselves as simply "The Wachowskis" now, omitting the "brothers". It's just that the "The" is omitted in this article, and I was wondering on which would be more appropiate. - Zero1328 Talk? 01:43, 6 September 2007 (UTC)

Why not simply split the pages into one for each of them? Kolindigo 04:33, 6 September 2007 (UTC)

Still, there are no reliable sources, please do not make any urban-legend motivated movements. Please, look here: It’s all untrue, [Joel Silver says] They just don’t do interviews, so people make things up.. ziel &amp; 16:55, 6 September 2007 (UTC)

They are still called "The Wachowski Brothers". I can't believe that you guys changed the name of their wikipedia entry because of a blog! Can you please change it back to "The Wachowski Brothers"? Or do I have to start a blog and call them like that in order to listen to me? ;-) (joking!) 83.212.200.47 17:08, 6 September 2007 (UTC)
 * Call me biased if you want, but I'm not going to change it myself based on an article from Fox. The number of sources are really scarce. Anyway, the article title is still valid. - Zero1328 Talk? 01:23, 7 September 2007 (UTC)
 * I can't believe you went and did this?! Why, why, why?! Can't you look at this talk page and the history and see that this has all happened before? What do they call themselves? "The Wachowski Borthers". Do you have a source stating that they have ever or will ever go by another name? No. Yet you do something as drastic as a page move. I especially liked your edit "they will go by this anyway"...really? So which of the brothers do you know and when did they tell you this? The page must be moved back until a very reliable source states that they will go by another name. And before you throw the "fact" that Larry is now Lana (which is very easily disputed) let me ask you this, couldn't they still go by "The Wachowski Brothers" since that is the name most people know them by? So what gives you the right to assume that they will change their name? (sorry to be so blunt and non-good faith, but this has happened before and it takes a lot of work to clean up). Konman72 03:17, 7 September 2007 (UTC)
 * P.S. Oh, and call me bias but I will trust Fox News over a few blogs and the San Francisco Chronicle any day of the week. And even without me the Fox News link is a far more reliable source. Konman72 03:25, 7 September 2007 (UTC)

I completely agree with Konman 83.212.200.147 09:04, 7 September 2007 (UTC)

Contested move
Hold on. I came from WP:RM to perform the move, but reverted myself after seeing this talk and switching my brains on; I might agree that "Wachowski brothers" should be preferred to "wachowskis", but a proper RM is called for (moveoptions?). Why should "Brothers" be capitalized? Why should it be preceded by "The"? We're probably dealing with a descriptive phrase rather than the proper title (in which case capital "B" and perhaps "the" would be called for). Duja ► 15:43, 7 September 2007 (UTC)

After seeing this: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Coen_Brothers I have the following suggestions: Name of the article: Wachowski Brothers Description of the picture: The Wachowski Brothers First lines: Laurence "Larry" Wachowski (born June 21, 1965) and Andrew "Andy" Wachowski(born December 29, 1967), known as The Wachowski Brothers are American....... What do you think? 83.212.200.147 18:14, 7 September 2007 (UTC)


 * It should be moved to whatever they call themselves. They seem to refer to themselves as "The Wachowski Brothers" given that that is how they are almost universally credited in their films. Though I would not debate a move to "Wachowski Brothers" or "The Wachowski brothers" I feel that this is the most correct version. Konman72 18:48, 7 September 2007 (UTC)

Woah, I'm wondering why this is contested in the first place. I only moved it to "The Wachowskis" as I decided it was one of the least risky places to put it, with all the scarce info, confusion, and the fact that the discussion on the proper title currently hasn't progressed very much, as Duja described. - Zero1328 Talk? 12:32, 8 September 2007 (UTC)


 * I'm wondering why it is contested as well, but for wholly different reasons. They are called "The Wachowski Brothers", not "The Wachowskis". You moved it here based on false information and a large amount of assumptions that turned out to be completely incorrect. Whether you like it or not the Fox News source trumps all of the others (especially given the fact that the others are over a year old while this one is less than a week). The page should never have been moved in the first place, now it is just a matter of cleaning up the mess. Konman72 18:11, 8 September 2007 (UTC)

Moved
In the absence of any polling or discussion consensus, I have moved the article to "Wachowski brothers" along the lines of Ertegün brothers, etc. There's no reason for a capitalized B or for the definite article. Pro hib it O ni o ns (T) 10:50, 9 September 2007 (UTC)
 * Yes but the brothers still have their own articles and these brothers do not. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 81.50.45.239 (talk) 01:52, 7 February 2008 (UTC)

Ilsa Strix
I noticed that the Buck Angel and Ilsa Strix articles both mention Wachowski (Larry), but this makes no mention of Strix. Should this be corrected, IE Strix added here or Wachowski removed from either article?Juno Loire 07:05, 19 September 2007 (UTC)
 * It should be included here but expect any attempts to be immediately deleted. Someone high up on the Wiki chain doesn't want this out - wants to keep whitewashing these bastards. And if you check what they've done to the Ilsa Strix entry: the following line's been removed.

'Ilsa Strix gained mainstream notoriety when she became romantically involved with The Matrix creator Larry Wachowski.'

You have to go back to the following revision to see more of the original meat of the article. http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Ilsa_Strix&oldid=173923130

It seems a real lowlife calling himself 'Donald Y. Dee' and it appears that after he butchered that article he went up in smoke here.

You just can't trust Wikipedia with all these weird types running around today. The mention of Ilsa Strix is completely genuine and 'Wiki-worthy'. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 81.50.45.239 (talk) 01:50, 7 February 2008 (UTC)


 * I've added non-controversial mention of Ilsa Strix to the article, at least the stuff which can be proven 100% (e.g. Larry and Ilsa living together, Thea Bloom citing her as reason for her divorce from Larry). Unless someone (Larry or Ilsa) goes through official Wikipedia channels per WP:BLP, this information should be safe, being that it's properly cited and all. -- Y&#124;yukichigai (ramble   argue  check ) 04:02, 22 March 2010 (UTC)

Lana Wachowski, yet again
Okay, I noticed that all mention of the whole "Larry/Lana" thing was removed from the article. While I agree the article shouldn't imply that Larry has actually gone through a sex change without their being some kind of official statement, the rumor itself has generated enough notability that it needs to be included in the article. To that end I've re-added the section, but I've also rewritten it to be neutral. (and grammatically correct such that it doesn't sound like it was written by a 9 year old) The section makes no pronouncements concerning the validity of the rumors, and presents information from both sides.

However, there are still a few things the section needs. Mainly, mention of how the main media buzz about this came from a Cinematical post which was picked up by various aggregate sites, particularly Fark.com.

Also, the overall article could probably use some more information about the personal lives of the Wachowski brothers, particularly Larry's divorce and subsequent ties to Mistress Ilsa. He was notably unapologetic about both of those issues if memory serves, so BLP shouldn't preclude the information from being included. -- Y&#124;yukichigai (ramble  argue  check ) 11:13, 30 November 2007 (UTC)

What about this recent picture? http://news.xinhuanet.com/english/2009-05/06/content_11324232.htm —Preceding unsigned comment added by 129.31.6.118 (talk) 12:29, 6 May 2009 (UTC)

Laurence: June 21, 1965 (1965-06-21) (age 44) Andrew: December 29, 1967 (1968-12-29) (age 41) —Preceding unsigned comment added by 58.186.221.214 (talk) 14:44, 31 December 2009 (UTC)
 * When Jesse Ventura was on the radio talking about his role in the Wachowski's Cloud Atlas, he clearly called her Lana. Mind, that's based on first-hand experience. —95.89.27.246 (talk) 03:08, 22 March 2010 (UTC)


 * The IMDb profile for Larry is now listed as "Lana Wachowski", which has been included. Unfortunately I can't find any sort of announcement of the namechange or anything. -- Y&#124;yukichigai (ramble   argue  check ) 03:20, 22 March 2010 (UTC)

Undue weight on sensationalist transsexual issue
While this issue is certainly worth mentioning, it must not be allowed to dominate the article in the way it currently does. Similarly, the fact that Einstein changed nationality on several occasions should not dominate his article, nor Mohammed Ali's change of name or religion his article. Michael Eriksson (talk) 05:24, 18 April 2010 (UTC)


 * I agree completely with the comment above. The Wachowskis are notable as filmmakers. If you'd never heard of them and came across this article, you could be forgiven for thinking they are a famous transsexual and his/her brother. It is ridiculous that this article has more content about Larry/Lana's gender than their film career; indeed, apart from a list of films, it contains basically no information about the latter at all. This article as it stands is arguably a violation of WP:BLP, particularly when the Larry/Lana section is so badly sourced (Perez Hilton, IMDB and Twitter are not reliable sources). Robofish (talk) 12:49, 17 May 2010 (UTC)
 * I've just cut this section down and renamed it to 'Personal life', and taken out all the parts which were cited to unreliable sources. That's a slight improvement, but it still feels wrong that it's the longest part of the article - this really should have more about their filmmaking career. Robofish (talk) 12:54, 17 May 2010 (UTC)

Re Trans Issue: Elegant and Brilliant As Is
I don't know if this is misuse of the talk page considering I am advocating a non-change, but because it is contentious I suppose it is worth sticking up for the current iteration.

Basically, the way the article leads up to it is balanced, tactful, and fair, and the way the gendered pronoun is used only at the end of the Personal Life section is utterly brilliant. Whoever wrote it deserves a cookie

Nhakimi (talk) 21:51, 19 May 2010 (UTC)

Lana Wachowski/IMDB source
Can we get a better source confirming the sex change than IMDB? IMDB is user-edited.--71.121.67.163 (talk) 02:08, 30 May 2010 (UTC)

Wikipedia also is! How amusing. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.45.173.106 (talk) 19:45, 15 June 2010 (UTC)


 * IMDB is user edited and to change that name it would have to be Lana doing it. I know, I did the same to mine when I transitioned.So that they can site credits directly IMDB they include  credited as "whatever". To change the name Lana would have had to do it. I realize Wikipedia is basically a  festival of inaccuracy and opinion but this is where quoting news articles wont help. IF you can't give a proper investigation to the name change I would delete that section all together. It reads like a tabloid. 98.149.114.34 (talk) 17:57, 3 March 2011 (UTC)

Solution
I have a solution to the Larry/Lana thing. Grab the box of the most recent movie s/he worked on and read it. Does it say Larry or Lana Wachowski? This article should just go with whatever it says until we hear otherwise. Personally, I believe that he is now a she. But if the lastest DVD box says otherwise, then we go with that. Wikipedia's about verifiability, and if we don't have the resources to confirm that Larry is Lana, then so be it. --- cymru lass (hit me up)⁄(background check) 22:06, 29 June 2010 (UTC)

Here are some transformation photos avalean (talk) 00:01, 7 July 2010 (UTC)

Wachowski siblings
If Larry is now Lana. Aren't they now the Wachowski siblings? avalean (talk) 00:02, 7 July 2010 (UTC)
 * Fair point, but for a long time they were known as bros. Lots42 (talk) 19:06, 27 October 2010 (UTC)

Cloud Atlas
I think this section should be reverted to a previous version. The current detail:

They've completed the movie script, which resolves around the homosexual relationship between a U.S. soldier and an Iraqi (http://www.deadline.com/2010/05/larry-and-andy-wachowski-shop-u-s-iraqi-war-tale-with-hard-r-gay-love-story/) and they are looking to direct it.

Is incorrect to the novel, Cloud Atlas, and nothing in that link specifically mentions Cloud Atlas or in any way points to that book. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 66.90.145.247 (talk) 17:02, 7 September 2010 (UTC)

That plot description for their other in the works film, Neural Cobalt 9. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Jackdavinci (talk • contribs) 15:21, 23 September 2010 (UTC)

Move to "The Wachowkis"
As previously mentioned, the duo is now commonly called "The Wachowskis" instead of "Wachowski brothers." I believe we should move the page. Any objections? I'll let this talk item sit for a bit and then come back if the move seems uncontroversial. -Quasipalm (talk) 20:02, 24 January 2011 (UTC)
 * Just came here from thinking the same thing.   Skomorokh   04:12, 29 January 2011 (UTC)
 * Ok, cool. I was just hoping it wasn't any of the uncofirmed sex-change rumours causing this change. Lots42 (talk) 08:54, 30 January 2011 (UTC)
 * So, shouldn't this be "The Wachowskis", and not "The Wachowkis"? Hanov3r (talk) 20:37, 1 February 2011 (UTC)
 * Should there not be a section about why they were previously brothers but are now Siblings/The Wachowskis? There are a lot of pages that still talk about them as brothers. Doesn't have to be an entire section, maybe just a line or such? MrMacMan  Talk  00:58, 5 July 2011 (UTC)

Transgender, redux
I added more info about Larry's rumored change based on reliable sources, including the Guardian, although I made sure to include that it is still only a rumor. Angryapathy (talk) 20:36, 6 July 2011 (UTC)
 * Very good, refs are needed. But few people trust the Guardian. Lots42 (talk) 02:12, 7 July 2011 (UTC)

Is there going to be a Matrix Resurrected?
I see rumors all over the internet, what is the truth? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.23.80.228 (talk) 10:03, 7 December 2011 (UTC)

Jewish?
The categories listed include American Jews, and although I could assume that eastern-European immigrants were probably Jewish, nothing else in the article confirms that they were from a Jewish family. And I can't find other reliable sources to confirm this either. Help? Aristophanes 68  (talk)  06:33, 23 December 2011 (UTC)

In regards to living people
From Wikipedia's own rules. - Public figures Policy shortcut: WP:WELLKNOWN In the case of public figures, there will be a multitude of reliable published sources, and BLPs should simply document what these sources say. If an allegation or incident is notable, relevant, and well-documented, it belongs in the article—even if it is negative and the subject dislikes all mention of it. If it is not documented by reliable third-party sources, leave it out. Example: "John Doe had a messy divorce from Jane Doe." Is this important to the article, and was it published by third-party reliable sources? If not, leave it out, or stick to the facts: "John Doe divorced Jane Doe." Example: A politician is alleged to have had an affair. He or she denies it, but The New York Times publishes the allegations, and there is a public scandal. The allegation belongs in the biography, citing The New York Times as the source. Lots42 (talk) 03:43, 13 December 2011 (UTC)
 * Exactly. And all the current sources say that Larry now goes by the name Lana. Angryapathy (talk) 14:59, 13 December 2011 (UTC)
 * From The New York Times "In 2005, while on the London set of “V for Vendetta,” the actress Natalie Portman gave a copy of “Cloud Atlas” to Lana Wachowski (formerly Larry), who became intrigued with the novel’s six obliquely connected stories. A year later, Lana and her brother Andy..." (Bold added). Angryapathy (talk) 15:03, 13 December 2011 (UTC)
 * In regards to the above two comments, my reserch shows the sources all snake their way back to this or that -bad- source. A source based on unverified fiddle-faddle is not a worthwhile source and should not be used, at least not without clarification. Lots42 (talk) 17:24, 14 December 2011 (UTC)
 * Are you really arguing that the New York Times and Variety wouldn't fact check something like that? I'd tend to trust them over the research of an individual Wikipedia editor. At any rate, the consensus on the issue appears to be clear; it's time to update the article.Cúchullain t/ c 23:17, 14 December 2011 (UTC)
 * Yes, I believe the New York Times and Variety did not fact check. Lots42 (talk) 23:59, 14 December 2011 (UTC)
 * Well, you are certainly entitled to think that, but without evidence to back it up, the standard practice is to follow reliable sources over the assumptions of individual editors.--Cúchullain t/ c 13:35, 15 December 2011 (UTC)
 * This is starting to look like mostly consensus, other than Lots42, and to be honest with the aforementioned stories their objections do not make sense. Could we get to editing this? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 82.32.154.200 (talk) 14:58, 15 December 2011 (UTC)
 * My objections are that the sources we have seem to be feeding off one, for lack of a better phrase, bad source. An unacceptable source is not made more acceptable if other people quote it. Either way, the article, as it currently stands, violates Wikipedia rules. That being, badly sourced material about living people must be deleted right away. Lots42 (talk) 01:07, 7 January 2012 (UTC)
 * It is your assumption that the New York Times, Variety, and others relied on a bad source and didn't fact check or ever correct themselves; you've offered no evidence of that whatsoever. Wikipedia practice is to go with what the reliable sources say unless there's some outstanding reason not to, and other than your own assumptions you've offered no reason not to.--Cúchullain t/ c 16:25, 7 January 2012 (UTC)
 * http://xkcd.com/978/ relevant. Lots42 (talk) 00:15, 14 January 2012 (UTC)

RfC: Name change of Larry Wachowski
Should the article be updated to change the name of Larry Wachowski to Lana Wachowski?--Cúchullain t/ c 14:42, 2 December 2011 (UTC)

Comments

 * Support name change, though a note in the parenthesis with her original name would be appropriate, i.e., "... Lana Wachowski (born Laurence Wachowski MM/DD/YY), ..." It's appropriate to point this out as much as many transgendered individuals would like to make this into not a big deal, the fact remains that being a transgendered person is still a big deal indeed-- see, e.g., the reaction to Chaz Bono in Dancing with the Stars (embarassing as it may be to even admit to knowledge of that). siafu (talk) 15:12, 2 December 2011 (UTC)
 * Support. As I said above, the press for their upcoming picture Cloud Atlas pretty uniformily refers to the elder Wachowski as "Lana", not "Larry". For instance in a Google News search for "Cloud Atlas"+Wachowski, virtually all relevant hits include "Lana" Wachowski; those that mention "Larry" typically do so only to say she was "formerly Larry Wachowski" or similar. Variety, the entertainment trade magazine of record, has been using "Lana" all year (Lana vs Larry). Her IMDb credit has been at "Lana" for some time now. As Siafu says it's fine to indicate that she was formerly Larry Wachowski (and credited as such in all their films). But it's pretty clear that "Lana" how she prefers to be called, how her films will be credited, and how she will be called in the sources. We should follow suit.--Cúchullain t/ c 16:02, 2 December 2011 (UTC)
 * Basically yes, per Siafu, but with vigorous applications of common sense as to where it may be appropriate to back-ref the previous name. Rich Farmbrough, 16:08, 2 December 2011 (UTC).


 * Support I agree that all the press for Cloud Atlas lists "Lana Wachowski". Of course, their private nature means there has been no official word that Lana change their name, but based on the available sources, it would be appropriate to change it now. Angryapathy (talk) 16:48, 2 December 2011 (UTC)
 * Disagree Unless there is official word, it would be nonsensical to change it throughout the article. Keep it to 'These sources say 'Lana' etc. etc. EDIT: A re-examination of the current article reveals no actual proof of transgender. Thus changing the article would be dishonest in the extreme. Lots42 (talk) 17:03, 2 December 2011 (UTC)
 * No one has said we should say specifically that she is transgender. But it's abundantly clear that "Lana" is the name both she and all the current sources are using.--Cúchullain t/ c 19:03, 2 December 2011 (UTC)
 * You are contradicting yourself. Using the word 'she' is saying the sibling in question is transgender. Once again, if there is no proof then it is against Wikipedia rules to start calling the person 'she'. I have seen no proof. Lots42 (talk) 03:38, 13 December 2011 (UTC)
 * I'm using "she" because by all indication that's how she prefers to be referred to. We don't have to explicitly say "she is transgender" to use the name she clearly wants to use. Again, if the sources use "Lana", so do we, it's as simple as that.--Cúchullain t/ c 13:31, 15 December 2011 (UTC)
 * To Chucullain; no it's not. Per Wikipedia rules, noting that some of the sources say 'Lana' is the right thing to do, but unless we hear it straight from the siblings, then keeping the pronouns as they are is what we should do. Lots42 (talk) 09:21, 22 December 2011 (UTC)


 * Support. Paolo  Napolitano  16:34, 4 December 2011 (UTC)
 * Support. Seems like a no-brainer. It's what reliable sources use, it's the name the individual goes by, it's how she's credited in the most recent projects, and I could have sworn there was a MOS on it too. –Roscelese (talk ⋅ contribs) 21:37, 4 December 2011 (UTC)
 * Support Wiki follows current use. SD (talk contribs) 02:05, 5 December 2011 (UTC)
 * Support Though we critically need better sources than the tabloid Daily Mail. I've removed some BLP problematic content. causa sui (talk) 20:53, 5 December 2011 (UTC)
 * Support. is this a legitimate reference? http://www.imdb.com/name/nm0905154/bio Elmmapleoakpine (talk) 22:26, 8 December 2011 (UTC)
 * IMDB is not a legit ref. Lots42 (talk) 03:39, 13 December 2011 (UTC)
 * @Lots42, I'll be one of the first to defend anyone's right to state their opinion, but you may want to check WP's own article on IMDb regarding its legitimacy. --Scalhotrod - Just your average banjo playing, drag racing, cowboy... (talk) 16:10, 14 December 2011 (UTC)
 * Yep: NY times Gerardw (talk) 03:03, 13 December 2011 (UTC)
 * Support --Scalhotrod - Just your average banjo playing, drag racing, cowboy... (talk) 16:10, 14 December 2011 (UTC)
 * Support. Wikipedia has always referred to subjects of biographies with the names and pronouns they themselves use. It's a disgrace that this article has lasted so long without being cleaned up; it's a very prominent WP:BLP mess. Rebecca (talk) 12:22, 21 December 2011 (UTC)
 * Has either Wachowski sibling used the female pronoun themselves? If not, then neither should we. Lots42 (talk) 09:21, 22 December 2011 (UTC)
 * The Wachowski's don't give interviews, so we have no evidence of them using any pronouns. If you can find an interview with them which has them using "Larry" or "he" that is more recent than current sources, then I would agree that we would have to change the article to reflect that information. However, in lieu of that, we have to go by what the sources say, which refer only to Lana. On a side note (not related to policy), if calling Larry "Lana" was untrue, I doubt that the Wachowski's would allow a press release about their movie, AND numerous sources, to use "Lana, formerly Larry". If the press starting referring to me by the wrong name, I am sure I would make a statement correcting that. Angryapathy (talk) 15:20, 22 December 2011 (UTC)
 * All logical; but still speculation. Lots42 (talk) 19:29, 22 December 2011 (UTC)


 * Support change, of course This is not even worth talking about - many reliable sources use Lana,`and we go by sources. Do not need an interview with them to verify what is obviously true. Change the name, with acknowledgment of original name, as per current revision. Tvoz / talk 01:59, 30 December 2011 (UTC)
 * Support using whatever resources available. Gender is a personal topic and the fact that it's in such prevalent usage would seem evidence enough without some sort of public declaration of "hey guys, I've transitioned" Nathanaelbassett (talk) 17:09, 5 February 2012 (UTC)

More recent picture?
I'm pretty sure the current one shows Lana pre-transition, plus they both look very different now. Ihaberlin (talk) 03:03, 5 July 2012 (UTC)


 * A new picture can be taken from their promo video for Cloud Atlas. Good luck trying to get fair use. — WylieCoyote (talk) 00:39, 1 August 2012 (UTC)

Nickname?
The article says that Lana was "formerly nicknamed 'Larry'". Shouldn't it be formerly named? DanielDPeterson +  talk  01:56, 2 August 2012 (UTC)

Larry vs Lana in picture caption
Just undid revision 514439933 by 50.9.97.53 (talk). MOS:IDENTITY says "Any person whose gender might be questioned should be referred to by the... pronouns... that reflect that person's latest expressed gender self-identification." We should therefore refer to Lana by the name "Lana", even if the photo depicts her before she changed her name. --217.204.106.166 (talk) 15:14, 25 September 2012 (UTC)

New name for duo- Wachowski Starship
I have moved the pge back from "Wachowski Starship" to "The Wachowskis". This new name was stated only very recently, and may have been said in jest. I'd say we wait to see if this name is continued to be used by the press and by the duo in their professional life before we change the article title. Angryapathy (talk) 16:21, 29 September 2012 (UTC)

New Yorker Article
http://m.newyorker.com/reporting/2012/09/10/120910fa_fact_hemon

You guys should be using this article as a source. As far as I know it's the only interview where Lana goes into depth about her gender identity. It also puts to rest any discussion of if she should be called Lana. She IS Lana now. Simple enough. 198.228.200.23 (talk) 16:00, 6 October 2012 (UTC)

Updating article photo to better reflect Lana's gender?
Seeing as how Lana has stated that she didn't finish her transitioning to female until The Wachowskis finished Speed Racer, which was in 2008, and current article photo is dated 2004, should we try to look for a more current Free Use photo that would more accurately reflect her gender? 70.49.187.220 (talk) 06:06, 29 October 2012 (UTC)


 * That probably wouldn't be a bad idea. IIRC, the current photo we have is from when Lana was Larry and not outwardly identifying as female yet but was beginning to "cross dress".  I don't have the foggiest idea where to begin looking other than on flickr's liscenses that we are allowed to use.  Images aren't my strong suit around here.  But I did want to chime in with my agreement. Millahnna (talk) 07:37, 29 October 2012 (UTC)


 * I agree as well. Perhaps there are some pictures from her HRC acceptance speech that would be acceptable to use? - Joshua S. Bennett (talk) 02:11, 8 November 2012 (UTC)


 * All of those photos would have copyright issues. We either need her to release a publicity photo we can use, or have someone take a photo and release it into the commons Gaijin42 (talk) 02:25, 8 November 2012 (UTC)

Jupiter Ascending
According to IMDB, Channing Tatum and Mila Kunis are starring in it.--Packinheat2u (talk) 09:40, 3 July 2012 (UTC)

I have added a Jupiter Ascending stub. Feel free to add to it! -- Granite T. Rock (talk) 17:16, 10 November 2012 (UTC)