Talk:The Way International/Archive 2

Tabloid Journalism from Unsourced Statements
Tabloid Journalism from Unsourced Statements About Events from 30 Years Ago

I cannot believe this website and its claim to be a neutral point-of-view encyclopedia. It seems to be overrun by paparazzi "journalists" who would report accusations they heard in the wind, if it fit their cultic world-view of religion, Christianity, and non-denominational churches. If I wanted the National Enquirer report on the Way International I'd ... well - go to Wikipedia, I guess, to get the scoop. God forbid the things you have to say about Jesus Christ, Moses, or the Apostle Paul ... are the 2 or 3 of you cult nuts going to snipe them, too? I'm going to check out the Wikipedia entries on them before going any further. Gideonmjames 15:30, 6 October 2006 (UTC)


 * You're free to disbelieve anything you want. As for just reporting any accusations, this page would have exploded if only the victim-accounts were posted. Feel free to disbelieve THAT as well.


 * As for the entries for Jesus Christ, Moses, Paul the Apostle (Saul of Tarsus) and Moses, they all HAVE Wikipedia entries, and you SHOULD have looked at them before commenting on them. If there's a problem with any of their entries, feel free to take that up on THEIR discussions-they're irrelevant to THIS discussion unless you're going to bang the table. And spewing insults ("cult nuts") hardly strengthens your argument here. Pete Snowball 16:48, 6 October 2006 (UTC)


 * Snowball, the comment about Jesus Christ, Moses, and Paul was a rhetorical question posited in mid-thought ... there wasn't time to look them up first. That's why I said, "I'm going to check out the Wikipedia entries on them before going any further." And they were pretty good, by the way.

In other words, you're admitting you posted before you did your research. That's below the standard expected on Wikipedia. And you still haven't apologized for calling your fellow editors "cult nuts". Pete Snowball 23:38, 6 October 2006 (UTC)

enteuthen kai enteuthen
I changed the name of this section to "Four crucified with Christ." The previous title means nothing to the average reader, and the section never explained what it meant. The current title now describes the content.Pete Snowball 15:10, 15 November 2006 (UTC)

Publications
Someone added a list of publications. I removed the "books" "Renewed Mind", "Witnessing and Undershepherding", "Dealing With the Adversary",because there were never "publications" with those names. I added "Born Again to Serve" by Mrs W, and "VP and Me" by Loy Martindale. I also added that VPW EDITED JCOP and JCOPS, since both books were completely written by the Research Dept, despite all references to them having been left out of those books. At MOST, VPW edited them-but more likely, he wrote the intro and just let them write the book. However, for all intents and purposes, that can be referred to as him "editing" it. (I also restored the Pacific group's name, since no reason was ever given for its deletion-which on this page generally means "I want to pretend they didn't exist.")Pete Snowball 19:08, 8 August 2006 (UTC)

I removed "Rise and Expansion" from the publications list because it was a class, not a publication. Pete Snowball 13:12, 12 August 2006 (UTC) I removed "Rise and Expansion" from the publications list again because it was a class, not a publication.Pete Snowball 14:09, 14 August 2006 (UTC)


 * The Rise and Expansion of the Christian Church in the First Century - written by L. Craig Martindale, Hardcover, Published by American Christian Press (1st ed July 1993) ISBN: 091006878X.

It was a class that is sure, but it was also a book. The class stopped running some time ago but the book is still for sale and still taught from. Heck the PFAL book was also a class but it is still a published book! Lsjzl 21:48, 16 August 2006 (UTC)

It took me a while to find it-since nobody was saying this sooner-but I DID find references to it. The reason was that the class started with no textbook, and eventually they made one. So, I actually was coming here to re-enter the thing. Pete Snowball 18:22, 18 August 2006 (UTC)

Those Who Have a Positive View of "The Way International"

 * Wikipedia is not a forum. This page is here for us discuss our article about "The Way," not to discuss personal experiences (which we can't use as a basis for edits, per no original research). Thanks, -Willmcw 23:55, 25 October 2005 (UTC)


 * Testimony deleted. If you want to publicize your feelings about The Way, make a web page and send us a link Grumpyoldgeek 23:34, 15 November 2005 (UTC)


 * I've had some experiences with the Way, hence why I never edit this article. Deckiller 00:52, 8 December 2005 (UTC)

TWI's description of TWI
I restored its description of itself. Although I agree that it is bland, uninformative and does not truly add information to the discussion as such, I think the self-description of an organization is appropriate to have on an article ABOUT that organization, whether or not that description is useful or even accurate in its portrayal. Besides, there's a verifiable source for the description. Pete Snowball 13:03, 5 August 2006 (UTC)

Someone went by and removed its description of itself again. I compared the page to a few other religious organizations, and noticed that how they label themselves is not included in their own pages by direct quotation. So, I conclude that a fair treatment of TWI would be to give them the same privileges other groups get-and no more. Therefore, I agree with the removal.Pete Snowball 13:26, 6 August 2006 (UTC)

POVing this page.
I want this page's POV removed by the end of the weekend, if possible. Anyone reading this message: please help POV this article ASAP. I have already tried, although weasel statements and rushing are my primary weaknesses....

This category has a lot of potential. We may be able to completely delete or merge all the articles I made about people. Other TWI articles include:
 * The Rock of Ages Festival
 * Way Productions
 * Mark and Avoid

Deckiller 23:52, 9 December 2005 (UTC)


 * I'd like to see the POV removed as well. I did some work on it a month ago, but with having had contact with the group, it's very hard work.  If you'd like to kick around some ideas or specifics here, I'll try to work with you. Grumpyoldgeek 04:36, 16 December 2005 (UTC)
 * I was in the group as well. I'll try to start throwing ideas sometime this weekend. Deckiller 00:33, 17 December 2005 (UTC)

TPOV
To the person who keeps deleting content and calling it the "Truthful POV", you are deleting information that can be verified from news media sources and TWI's literature. Don't try to reslant the page to favor TWI - leave it in a NPOV. TPOV (especially, when it's your view or truth, is not the policy of Wikipedia. --Mike Straw 07:38, 29 May 2006 (UTC)

I also am not sure why Anon's TPOV edits keep coming up? Does he or she hope that some day they will be left up? Plus Anon deletes anything regardless of what it is. I have been a part of this ministry since birth yet I am not fighting the NPOV that must be kept on this page. Anon, if you feel there is a problem come and discuss it rather than this stupid fighting. Lsjzl 14:29, 31 May 2006 (UTC)


 * Lsjzl, I applaud your attitude. It amazes me that so many people don't realize that the worst thing they can do, if their organization is accused of being a cult, is to go into a howling frenzy and try to surpress any discussion of the evidence for and against such an allegation.  Since "control of information" is so often identified by experts as one of the key criteria of a cult, it amazes me that more people can't see that hysterically screeching whenever someone asks "is this group a cult?" makes it look like it is. -- Antaeus Feldspar 14:42, 2 June 2006 (UTC)

Once again, our anon POV vandal has struck, this time claiming to make a FB-POV (fair-and-balanced point of view). I reverted most of the edits, although I left the size and the rewording of the PoP section, because it actually fit better and made more of a NPOV. The rest was the same old deletion of all cult allegations and restating assertions of TWI as fact. Also, he refers to the Categories for deletion] discussion about the purported cults category as support for his actions. However, that was dealing with having a category to list groups that someone considers a cult, which really could apply to almost any church.  (Note: I am using the masculine here for simplicity - I don't know if our anon POV vandal is male or female.) --[[User:MStraw|Mike Straw 11:10, 7 July 2006 (UTC)

Antisemetic books in TWI
Antaeus, isn't it possible that the word "released" could cause misinterpretation? I don't remember if I ever saw these books for sale in the Way Ministry bookstore though as well the quoted source doesn't mention that either. Also, the page quoted is extremely out of date as it still mentions the Intermediate PFAL class as a NEW class. The Way has gone through 2 revisions of that class since. (Actually, 2 new classes)

I am not saying this makes it untrue nor am I trying to get around the NPOV guidelines, I just wonder if others will read into the word "release" as I did.

Added: I do know people had this book and that it was promulgated as was a book titled: "The New World Order" out of an old "Word and Business Conference" that used to run. Lsjzl 19:11, 2 June 2006 (UTC)


 * TBH, Lsjzl, I wish I knew better what Melton means when he says the books were "released" by the movement. Given the identities of the cited and the citer, I'm not inclined to think either one of them would be trying to exaggerate a connection, but I find the way it's phrased rather vague.  I'm going to check with my local libraries and see if I can connect with a hard copy which hopefully clarifies the issue. -- Antaeus Feldspar


 * Recent user added this comment to the page: due in large part to endorsements of the controversial (and disproven) books which I suppose for now clears up the ref part? Lsjzl 21:11, 21 June 2006 (UTC)


 * Ah! That sounds like it could be it.  I think either Saturday or Monday I can probably connect with a copy of the Melton book and check it then, but what Pete Snowball changed it to seems very plausible. -- Antaeus Feldspar 23:41, 21 June 2006 (UTC)

Both books WERE carried in the bookstore. I know people who bought them there. I saw no reason to flog that horse, since the issue most people had was not that the books were sold there, but rather that their contents were endorsed, cited, and taught by both VPW and LCM. I chose the least offensive way to phrase that without changing the meaning. Those WERE the reasons accusations of anti-Semitism were levelled. (Your choice whether or not they were justified.) That the books were disproven, I think, is beyond question at the present. "Myth of the Six Million" is disproven by several Wikipedia entries that show the Holocaust actually happened, and millions of people were killed. "The Thirteenth Tribe" has been disproven by genetic studies that show common genetic markers among Jews that are not common among non-Jews, but are common among across all the "ancestral tribes". So Koestler's main assertion-that the modern Jews are genetically unrelated to the 12 Tribes-has been disproven using DNA evidence. I can drag out some links if needed, but, really, if you need to defend both books, no citation of any page-including Wikipedia pages-is going to make a difference. Mind you, there ARE people who can hear the DNA evidence and STILL try to defend Koestler, can read the Wikipedia Holocaust entries and STILL claim "Six Million" was correct and the Holocaust is a hoax. I can do NOTHING about them (without electric shocks, I suppose.) Pete Snowball 15:03, 2 July 2006 (UTC)


 * Hi I am new here. As a former/but not entirely, believer in the ministry, I actually saw "The Thirteenth Tribe" sold in the bookstore at headquarters, at least as they called it then.  I can't say about "Myth of the Six Million" as I never even heard the title before.  That said, I do not believe at all that the ministry was anti-semitic.  I never heard anything taught that was anti-Semitic, not even taught locally, not on tape or anywhere.  I never detected any anti-Semite sentiments whatsoever.  I was in the ministry from approximately 1983 to about 1997 more or less.  If anti-semitism WAS taught, it was unauthorized, and likely someone’s misunderstanding of Craig’s intent, or their own agenda.  It DEFINITELY was not an official position.  I thought I’d clear that up.  --natipal 07:54, 12 November 2006 (UTC)

I added Arthur Koestler's book "the Thirteenth Tribe", which was one of the books normally discussed on this subject, which I didn't check was actually missing here. Pete Snowball 13:33, 4 July 2006 (UTC)

Hello, natipal. Craig's position-which he put forth OFTEN and came from Wierwille along with everything except the athletics stuff- was that "Israel" isn't "Israel"-that the 12 Tribes now have NO CONNECTION to the 12 Tribes in the Bible. VPW DID hold that the modern Jews were ALL actually Khazars (and not some, which was supportable.) It was in JCOP that had an Appendix saying that, and Wierwille also claimed that Yiddish was a transliteration of the Khazar languages. Craig, naturally, took things a step further (as he often did), and was overtly anti-Israel. It is difficult to find out what was in closed-meetings with the Way Corps when Wierwill e was teaching, but that's where the conspiracy theories all were promulgated back in the 1970s BY Wierwille. Among the more popular jingoistic conspiracies passed around by sources like "the Liberty Lobby" are ideas like the Jews controlling the US and general anti-Semetic speculations. Along with all the other stuff, they got a serving of this, and thus it should be little surprise that Craig proclaimed this sort of stuff from the podium. It's the same sources he used to claim the Pope had an aircraft carrier, and was going to force non-Catholics to convert under threat of violence. Ever hear the Holocaust denied, and hear that it's all a hoax? Craig pushed that one A LOT. TWI kids who were scheduled for a visit to the Holocaust Museum saw their school pressured to cut the stop-by TWI. TWI high schoolers ridiculed a Holocaust SURVIVOR who came to speak at their school, because she claimed the Holocaust happened and TWI claims it did not. The most ardent Wierwilleites alive now are OFTEN the sole voices in a discussion claiming the Holocaust never happened. (Coincidence, you say?) The 1990s was when this got VERY blatant and overt, but Craig was teaching this stuff in the 80s as well. Never once heard him make his "Apaches" comment? He was always comparing the Jews to the Apaches...Pete Snowball 14:25, 12 November 2006 (UTC)

Older classes and new info on them
There is no mention of the old PFAL series on this site and I wonder where it could be added to? Also, The Way just released a new Foundational class. (Unsure of the title) Could this be added to the Classes section or Should the old ones be moved into the History part?

Thanks! Lsjzl 20:57, 2 June 2006 (UTC)

I added info on the development of PFAL in the History section and mentioned it in the Classes section207.91.61.98 22:56, 15 November 2006 (UTC)Ten of Swords 18:53, 16 November 2006 (UTC)

The Way Ministry
This is another name that TWI is usually referred to as especially in verbal conversations or witnessing and outreach activities done by the group. I created two redirects from The Way Ministry and Way Ministry. In fact it took me awhile to learn that technically the group is TWI Lsjzl 02:25, 21 June 2006 (UTC)


 * Sounds like a good idea to make redirects under those names, then... -- Antaeus Feldspar 03:46, 21 June 2006 (UTC)

Plurality giving
(An additional term, "plurality giving", was coined to refer to calculating the amount of money you need to live on, and giving all other money to The Way International.)
 * This sentence was moved. The reason will be given after the quote:

The next sentence talks about how Failure to follow this law... This could end in a misleading idea that the law spoken of refers to the term plurality giving I felt. Lsjzl 21:25, 21 June 2006 (UTC)


 * I agree; where you've moved the sentence to makes it much clearer what "the law" refers to. -- Antaeus Feldspar 23:41, 21 June 2006 (UTC)


 * Geez, well in an attempt to show that I am not simply upping my edit counts... :) let me say that I moved the sentence back in the proper place. What I changed was the wording of "Failure to follow this law" to "the law of tithing". Lsjzl 14:49, 23 June 2006 (UTC)

Citation requests
After talks lately with Centrx and others on a different subject, I realized that unsourced statements could be and so, were tagged. Lsjzl 20:19, 28 June 2006 (UTC)

date of The Way's founding
I noted in 2 places that TWI counts their incorporation as happening in 1942, with Wierwille's Vesper Chimes radio show(and added its later name, Chimes Hour). Other than Wierwille starting TWI and starting the radio show, they have virtually NOTHING in common. Further, the date of paperwork containing the name "The Way" seems to change depending on who's talking. (I'll provide some specifics when I find where I left them.) Previously, the listing stated that 1942 WAS TWI's start. Pete Snowball 13:59, 3 July 2006 (UTC)


 * Also noted that on the Victor Paul Wierwille page the following:

"In 1942 he started the precursor to TWI, Vesper Chimes, which was a radio show broadcast from Lima, Ohio. He incorporated TWI in 1955, taking the name from Acts 9:2, which was used by early Christians."

The book "Born Again to Serve" by Dorothea Kipp Wierwille (ISBN 0-910068-79-8) says that "On June 12, 1955 the Board of Trustees submitted a resolution to the Board of Directors to amend and revise the constitution of The Way. Our original charter of incorporation had been filed Octorber 30, 1947, No 204759, with the Ohio secretary of state."

Not sure how this can be used but thought it would add to the conversation at least. Lsjzl 17:16, 8 August 2006 (UTC)

Seems that there were several overlapping dates. Vesper Chimes/Chimes Hour Youth Caravan was operating for at least a decade while Wierwille was a working minster for several E&R Churches. There is no indication that Wierwille thought of it as a separate organization, more like a "youth ministry". If the original incorporation date of 1947 was correct, was it indeed incorporated as "The Way"? I can see Wierwille thinking ahead to an independent ministry at some point, since he was regularly teaching PFAL from 1952 or 53, and deeded the farm to "The Way" in 1955 while he was still an active minister in the E&R Church, which he did not leave until 1957.

For that matter, was The Way any more than a vehicle to promote PFAL before the influx of "members" in the late 60's and early 70's? It doesn't appear from reading Dorothea Wierwille's book that there was any kind of control over or accountability from non New Knoxville area groups who utilized PFAL before the filming of PFAL and the creation of the Way Corps. So founding dates are going to be open to interpretation.Ten of Swords 18:41, 6 November 2006 (UTC)


 * I just checked John Juedes' site: hthe information that he has shows that "The Chimes Hour Youth Caravan" was incorporated in 1947. Ten of Swords 22:25, 23 November 2006 (UTC)

"Son of God"
I clarified the opening paragraph's description of how TWI views Jesus. The previous description was a bit awkwardly and esoterically phrased. What it meant in plain English was that TWI teaches that Jesus is the Christ, that Jesus is the Son of God, and that this does not make him God, nor could it. So I rephrased it more straightforwardly. Pete Snowball 14:05, 3 July 2006 (UTC)

Would it be at all helpful to indicate that although TWI considers itself a Christian group Orthodox Christians believe otherwise? There used to be a few sentances in the article that referred to TWI having heretical teachings but it seems that people argued that "heretical" was a matter of opinion. I think that it is safe to say that "heretical" is not on opinion but is based on an objective standard. To be considered part of Orthodox Christianity certain doctrines and beliefs must be affirmed. The definition of heresy is:

1.        1. An opinion or a doctrine at variance with established religious beliefs, especially dissension from or denial of Roman Catholic dogma by a professed believer or baptized church member. 2. Adherence to such dissenting opinion or doctrine. 2.        1. A controversial or unorthodox opinion or doctrine, as in politics, philosophy, or             science. 2. Adherence to such controversial or unorthodox opinion.

The American Heritage® Dictionary of the English Language, Fourth Edition Copyright © 2000 by Houghton Mifflin Company. Published by Houghton Mifflin Company. All rights reserved.

The Wikipedia definition states:

"theological or religious opinion or doctrine maintained in opposition, or held to be contrary, to the catholic or orthodox doctrine of the Christian Church, or, by extension, to that of any church, creed, or religious system, considered as orthodox. By extension, [heresy is an] opinion or doctrine in philosophy, politics, science, art, etc., at variance with those generally accepted as authoritative."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heresy

By definition TWI does, in fact, hold heretical teachings because Orthodox Christianity affirms the deity of Christ. The claim that Jesus is merely the son of God and not also God is considered heretical not by opinion but by an objective standard. I am suggesting that something be mentioned about it even if it makes some uncomfortable. Any thoughts? (joey 19:35, 11 July 2006 (UTC))


 * Well, my thought may not be one you'll like. But my thought is that it would almost certainly violate No original research to say "here's the dictionary definition of heresy; here's how TWI's beliefs differ from orthodoxy; clearly together this means The Way is heretical."  I'm not saying that such a chain of logic would be incorrect, mind you -- but it would set a bad precedent:  anyone could take any dictionary definition and say "the way I interpret this definition of Y, X meets all the listed criteria, therefore it's all right for me to say X is a Y."


 * Now on the other hand, if you have a quote from a reliable source stating that TWI's doctrines are heretical, that's a different story. -- Antaeus Feldspar 01:00, 12 July 2006 (UTC)

Thanks for responding. Those are fair assesments. I just thought the issue should be considered. What constitutes a reliable source? Would the Ecumenical Councils be a reliable source or would it have to be a secondary source who has researched TWI's claims and contrsted them to those of the councils? I merely suggest changes rather than changing things myself because people like you are more familiar with Wikirules. Thanks again for responding. (joey 02:13, 12 July 2006 (UTC))

I think we can all agree that TWI's doctrines are "heterodox", and differ from standard Christian teachings and doctrine. Statistically speaking, both are true and lack the emotional baggage that the pejorative term "heretical" carries. (There's no need to load the language when discussing TWI.) Pete Snowball 13:36, 17 July 2006 (UTC)