Talk:The Wild, the Innocent & the E Street Shuffle

External links modified
Hello fellow Wikipedians,

I have just modified one external link on The Wild, the Innocent & the E Street Shuffle. Please take a moment to review my edit. If you have any questions, or need the bot to ignore the links, or the page altogether, please visit this simple FaQ for additional information. I made the following changes:
 * Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20040607024531/http://www.brucespringsteen.net/albums/wild.html to http://www.brucespringsteen.net/albums/wild.html

When you have finished reviewing my changes, you may follow the instructions on the template below to fix any issues with the URLs.

Cheers.— InternetArchiveBot  (Report bug) 22:00, 5 December 2017 (UTC)

Release date discrepancy?
This article reference's Springsteen's official website when referring to the release date, which is fair, as it's a primary source that should be reliable. However, there seem to be discrepancies in other sources that point to this not being the correct date. I wanted to start a section of the talk page before doing any editing, to see if this has already been resolved at some point in the past.

First, the September 11 release date, combined with the recording period of "May - September 1973" places the release date unbelievably close to the recording sessions, and doesn't seem to account for mixing, mastering, album artwork production, actual album manufacturing, etc. I find it hard to believe that recording could be completed, and the album could make it to shelves less than two weeks later.

What actually caused me to truly question this purported release date are two sources: the Brucebase website, and Peter Ames Carlin's 2012 biography Bruce. Brucebase is a fan-run website, containing detailed information on both Springsteen's live history and the recording sessions for each studio album. Brucebase corroborates the reports that the recording sessions stretched into September, indicating that they ran as late as September 25, which is two weeks past the purported release date. Brucebase also gives a release date of November 5.

Now, I know that Brucebase is not a reliable source, because the website is comprised entirely of original research that cannot be verified independently. However, that's where the second source, the Carlin biography, comes into play. In chapter 10 - page 162 of the hardcover edition - Carlin states that the recording sessions began in mid-May and were "squeezed into dayslong increments through late September," which lines up with Brucebase's dates. The book gives a release date on page 166, though, interestingly, it's November 11, not November 5.

I think these two sources are enough to indicate that the September 11 date is incorrect - however, I'm a little unsure about November 5 or 11, as November 5 was a Monday, and November 11 a Sunday, neither of which have traditionally been album release days. (September 11 is a Tuesday, which makes sense) Because of this confusion, I didn't want to change the release date, because I'm honestly not sure what it should be. November 11 comes from a more trustworthy source based on Wikipedia's standards, but I'm unsure about it given it's a Sunday. Mostly, I want to know what other editors think of this discrepancy and what can be done about it, if anything. Hello2112 (talk) 22:58, 9 May 2018 (UTC)

Hi, re Brucebase. I'm an editor on the site, and although it's listed as being a 'fan-run website' in actuality all the editors (there are only a handful) are serious fans (I am a Springsteen biographer, and one other editor was a roadie and sometime member of the early E Street Band) who refuse to publish anything on the site without documentary evidence. My own book, which only covers the years pre-Born to Run, cites the release date as 'early November'. However, I can confirm this with former band members. CraigS1969 (talk) 23:09, 11 May 2018 (UTC)

Further to my point above I've just checked Albee Tellone's book Upstage, Springsteen and Me (Tellone was involved in the sessions). He mentions that mixing for WIESS was still taking place 'at the end of September'. He also notes that the release of the album was incredibly low-key - 'Sometime in November or December the album finally came out' - so much so that he wasn't aware of it at the time. I would argue Albee is a serious source and provides enough evidence to show that the album came out some time after September. Whether that date is 5th or 11th November isn't clear, but I can ask Albee to speak to others who were involved at that time. CraigS1969 (talk) 09:14, 12 May 2018 (UTC)

I want to clarify that I'm looking at this purely from a standpoint of what Wikipedia accepts as valid, reliable sources, and I just don't know if Brucebase qualifies, why is why I wanted to look at alternative sources like published books on Springsteen and the era of the album, like the Carlin biography and your book. It seems to me like the consensus among second-hand sources - that is, anything that's not Springsteen's website - agrees on a November 1973 release date. The question is, is that enough to change the date on the page without it being reverted? We would need to choose either one or multiple sources on it. I think it's actually important to change it on some level, because the official website has had this incorrect date for over a decade, so it's been cited in countless articles about the album. Are there any other editors that can provide some guidance on what to cite in changing the date? Hello2112 (talk) 14:46, 12 May 2018 (UTC)

That's a fair point re sources. But I may be able to clarify somewhat from a conversation I had with Albee Tellone. I don't want to go into too much detail as some of the information is private. However, apparently the contractual release date was 11th September, but the band couldn't get a run at the studio as they needed to play gigs to pay for it. The record company appears to have been kept in the dark about when it was finished (people's jobs were on the line - I won't go into detail). Albee does think it was out by 12-15 December when they played Nassau Coliseum, but was definitely out by 17-19 December at the Student Prince as Albee remembers Vini Lopez telling him this was the case. At this point no-one in the band had seen the album. Another interesting point Albee made was that he can't recall Bruce, in November, telling an audience that the album was out. I'm aware this doesn't really help in terms of sources, but it may help in terms of showing that perhaps there is no actual release date. My personal feeling is that it might be worthwhile adding something along the lines of 'The contractual release date of the album appears to have been 11th September, but most sources agree that it was more likely released in November or December. Albee Tellone who was a roadie at the time, and occasionally appeared onstage as Albany Al, believes that the release may have been as late as mid-December'. CraigS1969 (talk) 18:11, 12 May 2018 (UTC)

With that information, it might be best to add a footnote to the article stating that the release date could be as late as November or December and sources disagree on the exact date. I'll add that later. Thank you for the information! Hello2112 (talk) 19:03, 12 May 2018 (UTC)

Cool. Will look out for it. Glad to be of help. I know Albee is always looking for folks to get the info correct online. CraigS1969 (talk) 19:49, 12 May 2018 (UTC)

I'm late to this conversation, but the copyright registration says the Sound Recording was published November 9, 1973. The copyright registration for Greetings from Asbury Park said January 5, which suggests these are actual retail release dates. PatConolly (talk) 10:04, 14 March 2021 (UTC)

Suki Lahav - choir vocals on "4th of July, Asbury Park (Sandy)" and "Incident on 57th Street" (uncredited)
Uncredited? Proof, evidence, hypocrites? I have the original linear notes no mention of Suki Lahav's name anywhere... Again, proof? Evidence? Hypocrites! — Preceding unsigned comment added by 60.224.96.170 (talk) 04:01, 18 December 2019 (UTC)