Talk:The Yardbirds/Archive 1

The long and interesting career of Simon Napier-Bell
When I was in London in 1980 three days after the death of Led Zeppelin's drummer John Bonham I was hangin out in Nomis Sound Studios over in Sheperd's Bush. As I walked in with my guitarist we met Nik Lowe who was runnung the place in Simon Napier's abscence since he was in Hong Kong doing God-knows-what with God-knows-who; but Bad Company was in studio A with Graham Parker and the Rumour (with I believe Brinsley-Schwartz on guitar) in studio c; Rockpile was in studio B and a new band called Girlschool was in studio D.

We were greeted warmly as we were staying with a friend down the street; a cat called Pete who had been in Cockney Rebel years before; Nik Lowe was also producing Brian Robertson's band Wild Horses brfore he had joined Motorhead; of course all of London was in mourning for Bonzo so there was nothing happening from King's Road to Dingwalls where the Ramones were hanging out.

Simon Napier Bell was also the manager of Cream at a time when; as Nik Cohn wrote "he was very flash, drove a sportscar and no one was sure where he had made his money"; in other words; a hustler from the French Riveria and a lot of othewr places.

My name is Christopher Witt Diamant. At the time we were hanging out in London Pearly Gates who was Cosmo Vinyl's girlfriend asked myself and my guitarist Chris Lind to join her band; Cosmo was the Clash's manager but Pearly Gates had been the girlfriend of Rafael of the Nuns in san Francisco when he was the drummer for the Nuns and also Rank and File; but we turned her down because she had fired John and Hilary Stanch from her band before coming to London. But Simon Napier Bell is still a major mover in Rock.

Signed; Christopher Witt Diamant scardone@comcast.net —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 68.80.193.252 (talk • contribs).

Year of Rock_and_Roll_Hall_of_Fame inducting
The Yardbirds was inducted to Rock and Roll Hall of Fame in 1992, not 1990

NPOV
This has got to be one of the worst articles I've seen as far as keeping it neutral is concerned.


 * "...as they hammered away at versions of such blues classics as..."
 * "...his solo turns, while far enough from the gripping little gems..."
 * plus many, many more examples...

And also, it reads like a piece out of Rolling Stone, which is all well and good... but not encyclopedic. I am not in a position to improve it, since I know next to nothing about the Yardbirds, but it's such a shame that a band like this has such a fanboyish article. plattopusis this thing on? 19:32, Apr 2, 2005 (UTC)

The Article Isn't a Shame.
True that parts of it sound like it could come from a Rolling Stone ENCYCLOPEDIA of Rock & Roll, that's right that's from an encyclopedia so it seems contradictory to call it not encyclopedic, the best place to get encyclopedic info on music would probably be a music encyclopedic. The neutrality isn't really that bad, a few sentences are too descriptive for some tastes so just say instead of hammered away, they worked hard at, is it really that disastrous to see hammered away instead of worked hard at. It really shouldn't bug anybody that much. The article is pretty large and has a lot of pictures for most bands especially for one that was only around for a few years in the 60's so I really don't see this at all as a shame but one of the better pages on wikipedia. Patman2648

Did not?
The first paragraph says they "did not eventually evolve into Led Zeppelin."

I was under the impression that they had, but I don't know. It's somewhat of an intangible thing, so it would be nice if someone who knows them better could clarify. A cursory Google examination usually shows that Led Zeppelin came from the remnants of the Yardbirds.

--RandomPrecision 07:04, 1 February 2006 (UTC)


 * Now that I read it, nevermind, I'm just going to change that. They had Jimmy Page and John Paul Jones, and a later section specifically says they did become Led Zeppelin. RandomPrecision 07:21, 1 February 2006 (UTC)

from dq: There is a line in the opening paragraph saying: "a crucial link between British R&B and psychedelia (along with the Byrds);"

This should be removed. As a professional musician from that era, I guarantee: a) the Byrds had nothing to do with "linking" anything to British R&B; b) the Byrds have nothing in common musically via genre or style with the Yardbirds. Byrds were an American 12-string folk-rock band with vocal harmonies; Yardbirds were hard, blues-based British rock band. No comparison and nothing in common. Humbly submit that the reference to Byrds in this article be removed. Leaving it up to the editors. Apologies to the author if I have misinterpreted.
 * I agree. Reference to the Byrds removed. --David Edgar 07:29, 4 July 2006 (UTC)

Article refers to the wrong Ben King
The listing of the current band members links to a Ben King born in 1938. The Yardbirds Ben King is in his early twenties. This is on their website, and I can confirm from their October 2006 performance at the 100 club. And by the way, he is one seriously good guitar player.


 * Indeed, he's clearly a different person from Ben E. King. I changed the link to point to Ben King (guitarist). --David Edgar 11:26, 31 October 2006 (UTC)

Really, really needs editing
The facts seem to be alright, but the article really seems to need some heavy NPOV editing. Seems to me that it reads more or less like a Yardbirds love poem. I'm gonna go ahead and have at it some time tomorrow.Robertbieber 00:40, 6 November 2006 (UTC)


 * Still seems not that great; have you worked on it yet? Thanks by the way for offering, the Yardbirds definitely deserve a better article already, and it's so close to being a good article (all the hard stuff like facts and pictures are pretty good). —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 72.87.187.228 (talk) 07:16, 23 December 2006 (UTC).

Fair use rationale for Image:Little Games.jpg
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Fair use rationale for Image:Roger The Engineer.jpg
Image:Roger The Engineer.jpg is being used on this article. I notice the image page specifies that the image is being used under fair use but there is no explanation or rationale as to why its use in this Wikipedia article constitutes fair use. In addition to the boilerplate fair use template, you must also write out on the image description page a specific explanation or rationale for why using this image in each article is consistent with fair use.

Please go to the image description page and edit it to include a fair use rationale. Using one of the templates at Fair use rationale guideline is an easy way to insure that your image is in compliance with Wikipedia policy, but remember that you must complete the template. Do not simply insert a blank template on an image page.

If there is other other fair use media, consider checking that you have specified the fair use rationale on the other images used on this page. Note that any fair use images uploaded after 4 May, 2006, and lacking such an explanation will be deleted one week after they have been uploaded, as described on criteria for speedy deletion. If you have any questions please ask them at the Media copyright questions page. Thank you.BetacommandBot 04:31, 6 June 2007 (UTC)

Don Bish
Rimersburg native on world tour with British rock band Yardbirds By KAREN CLARK

Don Bish, 34, plays drums for the group, which will appear in Pittsburgh on Friday. Marching to a different drum has landed a Rimersburg native on a world tour with a legendary British rock band.Don Bish, 34, has traveled the globe as a drummer with the Yardbirds, a 1960s-era band famous for starting the careers of three of rock's most famous guitarists - Eric Clapton, Jeff Beck and Jimmy Page. Part of the band's tour includes a concert this Friday in Pittsburgh at Hartstown Acres. While in the area, Bish and the band will be stopping at the Clarion home of his mother, Donna Patterson, who is an associate dean at Clarion University. He is also the son of Richard Bish, an educator employed at the Riverview Intermediate Unit.

ABOUT THE BAND

Long before Bish was born, the London-based group was evolving their sound from blues-based to experimental pop rock, recording such hits as "For Your Love"; "Over, Under, Sideways, Down" and "Heart Full of Soul".Experts say the Yardbirds were pioneers in almost every guitar innovation of the '60s and were one of the first to put an emphasis on complex lead guitar parts and experimentation. The band was inducted into the Rock and Roll Hall of Fame in 1992. Music authorities declare that unlike many bands of the era, the Yardbirds have continued to aggressively move forward. And, 35 years after appearing on the radar of musical fame, their sound remains distinctly and electrifyingly that of the Yardbirds, who are credited with laying the groundwork for the rock guitar of today. Original band members Chris Dreja, rhythm guitar, and Jim McCarthy, drums and backing vocals, are still performing on tour. New group members include drummer Bish, bassist John Idan, lead guitar Ben King and harmonica player Billy Boy Miskimmin.

FROM RIMERSBURG TO RICHES

Bish said his parents bought him his first set of drums at age 5 and his first drum lesson was in first grade with Mrs. Crissman. The idea of music at school never really caught on for Bish, and he didn't participate in the available venues. "I never played in marching band. I wasn't into all that marching. Besides, kids in the band got beat up and I wasn't very tough," he said with a laugh. Bish said an uncle, Fran Fry of Franklin, who was a jazz drummer and worked with the Pennsylvania Musicians Union, was a major factor in developing his music. "He is one of the reasons I have a passion to play drums and cook. I am a huge barbecue fanatic also," he said. Although he never participated in band at school, he formed a teenage band with Miles Altman, Steve Curll and Dave Daughterer that played AC/DC and Kiss songs. He began playing in local cover bands and says he "cut his teeth" playing for 50 or so people at the Route 68 Bar. "I was 15 and my parents had to escort me in. I thought that was the greatest thing I would ever do," he reflected. After high school, Bish said he tried some college classes at Edinboro and did some odd jobs, but decided it wasn't a life he wanted. The decision to live his dream and pursue his music was easier for him than for his parents, both highly involved in the field of education. "For them, when I decided not to go to college, well, let's just say we had a talk. My parents have doctorates and masters degrees and here is their son," he said with a chuckle. However, Bish said his parents got on board his dreams after seeing his passion for music. "When they saw that, they really supported me. They wanted me to go to college, but saw it wasn't for me. They are good parents," he said. "But, I still get the occasional wisecrack about coming back home and getting a real job." After working a few years and scraping together a small amount of cash, Bish packed up a van purchased for $4,000 and headed to the west coast. "I put in a microwave, a drum set and two suitcases full of clothes and drove to L.A. where I didn't know a soul,' Bish said. With a little help from his parents, Bish got settled into a small apartment for the first month and began a rough journey on the way to his dream. Like many of the millions of musicians and movie stars looking for work in Hollywood, Bish picked up the local music paper and began heading out to auditions. "I roughed it. I survived the first six months eating a lot of Ramen noodles. I really struggled, but kept going to auditions and finally got a gig working with Ace Frehley from KISS in 1995, playing a side gig," he said. The first break lasted a few months, allowing Bish to accumulate some cash and get a better apartment. He then became part of an industrial rock band, The Newly Deads, did a world tour and made three records. "After that I bounced around. I got into Pretty Boy Floyd, an 80s hair band, and ended up doing 12 world tours and two MTV videos with those guys," he said. When that band became "too much of a party and not enough work," Bish began working with Kevin Martin, the singer from Candlebox, and did European and U.S. tours. "I got pretty lucky and just kept getting a better gig each time. They got more professional and kept stepping up," he said. On the way to his Hollywood home after an eight-month tour, Bish said he got a call from his manager about an opportunity to work with the Yardbirds. "I was in a taxi and my manager says, I just emailed you 32 songs - learn as many as you can on the flight to Toronto," he said. "I went home, did laundry and turned around and went back to LAX for a five-and-a-half hour ride to Canada." Not realizing he was showing up to play as part of the group, Bish said he figured it was for a cover band that worked closely with the Yardbirds and was surprised by the opportunity. "Getting a chance to play with the people that invented the type of music I was playing, wow. They are the legends and hall of famers," he said. That was 18 months ago. Now, as an established member of the group, Bish says the Yardbirds are one of the most fun and easiest touring groups he's ever been associated with. "They have been great. I've had the whole band to my mother's house to stay the night and have dinner. They all enjoyed it so much, we are having a barbecue at my Mom's again this trip," he said.

DOWN THE ROAD

After the show concludes in Pittsburgh next week, the current tour for the Yardbirds will be on hiatus until next spring. Meanwhile, Bish will return to his own band, Sink to See. "The Yardbirds take a little time off, so while they do that I get to tour with the band that I actually get to write songs with. We are based out of LA and just signed a publishing deal. The record comes out at Christmas," he said. "So when I get done with that, I get to join back up with the Yardbirds." Keeping pace with a whirlwind schedule doesn't allow much time for anything but music. But, Bish says he doesn't need a vacation. "I haven't had a vacation in 10 years. This is my vacation. Even though I will be in 200 cities in 32 countries during this tour, I have gotten paid to see the world and play music. I love what I do," he declared. "It's hell on your social life, but I can't see myself doing anything else. I have a house in north Hollywood that I get to see for a week here and a week there. I have become an excellent suitcase packer," he added.

CELEBRITY STATUS

As a successful musician, Bish has been interviewed by Rolling Stone magazine, VH1, MTV and countless international and stateside publications. But, returning to his hometown and garnering support from family and community has a stronger draw than fame any where else. "My grandmother was at Clairview Nursing home and not doing too well. I was told I should fly back to see her. She was in her hospital bed and her old lady friends were all around and she introduced me to them as 'her rockstar grandson. That was all I needed," said Bish. Additionally, returning to a rural area and telling local folks you play drums for a living, doesn't carry quite the image of success it may it large metropolitan areas. "In this part of the country, people don't earn a living playing drums. This is the first hometown interview I've done. It feels good. When you leave a town like that and come back, you want to be able to say, 'Look what I've done,'" he said. Experiencing the world of rock music at one of the highest levels, has left Bish with humble gratitude for what he has accomplished. "It's been a bumpy, bumpy road. There is a lot of high and lows. The highs are unbelievably high and the lows are really, really low. But, you fly for 13 hours for one show and there are 2,000 kids waiting at the airport holding signs with your name on it, and it's worth it," he said. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Special:Contributions/ (talk)

An Error In Your facts...
You say that the band started the careers of the guitarists. You are incorrect. Clapton was in Derek and the Dominoes and Cream beforehand so was already famous...

81.77.83.96 (talk) 14:20, 18 November 2007 (UTC)

Ryan


 * Wrong. Yardbirds was 1965 for Clapton. Cream was 1966, and Derek and the Dominos was 1970....What is it about this article that draws such opinions? Ryan, do you have any Yardbirds, Cream or Derek and the Dominoes LPs? Or are you reading the copyright date off the back of a CD? The mind boggles. 24.6.67.7 (talk) 10:57, 29 November 2007 (UTC)

Clapton wasn't popular within the band
A new article on the Guardian Unlimited website Eric Clapton is not God quotes Jim McCarty as saying "Eric had these R&B mod songs he wanted us to do. Him leaving was a relief. Eric would be sitting in the van not talking to anyone. You'd think he's so moody, he's such a pain, we're fed up with this."

I'm not a regular editor on this article so I'm not going to wade in something negative like this, but I thought I'd point it out here so it can be discussed and maybe one of the regulars adding something about it. -- Web H amster  12:39, 3 December 2007 (UTC)

Citations & References
See Footnotes for an explanation of how to generate footnotes using the  tags Nhl4hamilton (talk) 06:51, 3 February 2008 (UTC)

Yardbirds name?
The article says that The term, "Yardbird" is used in the southern United States as slang for 'chicken' (as in poultry), and it is a slang expression for "prisoner" I read somewhere (don't remember where) that it was a nod to the great jazz musician Charlie Parker -- who was also known as Yardbird. Mdebellis (talk) 22:47, 15 March 2008 (UTC)

The Real First Choice for Appearance
According to several print sources, including the book included with their 1995 CD box set, it was The Velvet Underground--not The Who--who were Antonioni's first choice for a cameo appearance in Blow Up. Apparently, funds could not be found to make the cross-Atlantic trip and accomodations a reality.Jannyrcobs (talk) 04:44, 4 April 2008 (UTC)

Yardbirds interview 1965
As an editor at Crawdaddy!, I'm not posting this link as an external link or otherwise in order to comply with COI regulations. But it is a worthwhile read, originally published in NME in 1965, and contains some colorful quotes, so I humbly submit it for further consideration interview Asst. Editor, Crawdaddy! FenderRhodesScholar | Talk 19:39, 30 April 2008 (UTC)

Cream
I appreciate that Led Zeppelin's formation is more directly linked to the Yardbirds than the fact that Eric Clapton joined Cream after leaving the Yardbirds, but since his leaving YB is mentioned, it wouldn't interrupt the flow of the paragraph, or even that sentence. The term 'Supergroups' comes to mind; Cream and especially Blind Faith are considered such because of Clapton's fame in YB and Cream before BF. Just a suggestion, I will leave notability to more knowledgable hands. Anarchangel (talk) 19:25, 30 November 2008 (UTC)

Motionless Fans in blowup...
It seems many years ago I hear of a name for the group of fans in London that only watched the bands much like the ones in this scene. And for some reason thought them related to the whole clapton is god thing going around. Well if he's not in this film then who are they? Are they a creation of the director? A mod group trying to out mod everyone else? Hopefully, someone here in the wiki, knows the answer and add a little more depth to this important article.also aswell (talk) 00:41, 13 December 2008 (UTC)

Chris Dreja
This article reads as if Dreja left first, then John Paul Jones joined. I believe it was the other way around, at least according to Davis' trash book "Hammer of the Gods." While the book sucks, he might have gotten that fact right. Does anyone know? Johnheinlein (talk) 03:48, 7 September 2009 (UTC)JHeinlein]

Lone "new" band formation photo doesn't feel right in the infobox
I feel that it is a a shock and betrayal of the spirit of this remarkable band-- that produced several rock icons (not to mention much more) up top of the infobox. Even with two long time bandmates in it, the band's sound, look, and even chemistry can not be considered the same. I, myself thought I'd reached the wrong article!! (though thanks to whomever provided the pic, it is very nice especially for a band photo). I will endeavour to find at least one or two photos from the early to mid years, and perhaps we can balance it out. I was really floored to see that they're still playing-- had no idea, and for someone who contributes to a lot of band biographies from the 1960s era especially, that probably means something-- I'm not sure what, but hope it's not bad. Maybe a different vision of where they see the band evolving toward. --Leahtwosaints (talk) 17:14, 19 October 2009 (UTC)

I think previous photos from the 1960s have been deleted due to Wikipedia's rules on photo use. The band may look different (as do most bands after forty years !) but their sound is still very much the Yardbirds sound. I don't think there are any major bands from the 1960s still featuring all their original members. They have been performing very successfully for over a decade all round the world so if you were unaware that suggests you are a tad out of touch RGCorris (talk) 15:41, 20 October 2009 (UTC)

Musical inventiveness
The article makes no reference to the two ways in which the Yardbirds were inventive and different.

1. The first id their trademark 'charge', the rapidly accelerating crescendo. For example, "I'm a man" on the "Five Live Yardbirds" recording clips along at a purposeful 140bpm, then during the crescendo near the end it rises to 180bpm. The effect is used more strongly in "Here t'is" and the incredibly quick "Too much monkey business". In live performance it was an incredibly effective technique.


 * That increase in speed is known as a "rave-up." The opening of the live track "I Wish You Would," which can be found on early Yardbirds' live collections (Clapton's Cradle, among others), features it prominently. Sd31263 (talk) 08:11, 17 February 2013 (UTC)

2. The Yardbirds also used the African "call and response" technique, most clearly in "Here t'is", but also in other tracks. As far as I know, no one else was using the technique in popular music or blues music, and it was not used until Senegalese music gained some exposure decades later. — Preceding unsigned comment added by JamesOfBerkhamstead (talk • contribs) 23:59, 12 March 2012 (UTC)

Clarity of the Article
The information is good. It just seems like some of it does not belong here.

As it stands the Yardbirds seems less a brand and a concept in its own right and more a brief pivotal intersection of several distinguished careers during the 1960's on their way to greater fame and fortune. If someone were looking for this tangled personal history about the lives of any of these musicians, how would they find this article on the Yardbirds?

I suggest that specific details about related works, individuals, and groups be exported to their respective individual articles, with brief generalized comments being substituted, if required for continuity and clarity in the story about the Yardbirds.

I came to these conclusions before opening the talk page and seeing similar concerns. If we saw the same thing, with me having essentially no prior knowledge of the band at all and no personal stake in the article either, then it might be a style issue rather than NPOV. So I decided to share my perspective in the hope something good may come of it. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 68.183.238.154 (talk) 09:32, 30 March 2012 (UTC)

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9/7/2017 edits
The addition of "new lyrics added by Relf" to "Dazed and Confused" is misleading. Relf sometimes added a verse or two, but basically used most of Holmes' lyrics, although sometime re-ordered – "with lyrics modified by Relf" is more accurate (see Dazed and Confused (song) for refs and/or compare Holmes' and the five known YB recordings).

Also, adding "The Yardbirds played their final shows May 31 and June 1 at the Shrine Auditorium in Los Angeles and June 4 and 5 at the Spring Fair at the Montgomery International Speedway in Alabama" is only supported by Grant's "recollection" that they never gigged after America. Longtime YB biographers and other RS put it at Luton or in July 1968. The way Grant's view is presented is WP:UNDUE. Additionally, the paraphrasing misrepresents the actual quote: (paraphrase: "manager Peter Grant in a later interview pinpointed the final shows as the last dates of the U.S. tour" (emphasis added); actual Grant interview: "Well, as I recall, we never played a gig after that American tour, so in reality it fell apart in America... [Q: So you don't remember the gig at Luton?] No, I can't remember that. What I can remember distinctly is driving Jimmy around Shaftesbury Avenue near the Saville Theatre after the split..." A better paraphrase is "Grant believed that their final show was in the US".

—Ojorojo (talk) 20:28, 9 July 2017 (UTC)

9/7/2017 edits
Yes, fine and thank you r.e. Relf, and I agree. For the most he part he didn't change the lyrics at all but sometimes did improvise new lines. Will make your recommended change.

As for the Luton gig, this has been a topic of much discussion of late on the Led Zeppelin official forum, where we have perspective from an archivist who contributed to some of those older book sources you mentioned and at one point was working with Jimmy Page to archive all pre-Led Zeppelin dates. He's never been able to confirm the Luton show w/ newspaper reference, review, poster art, "I was there" testimonial, nothing. Jimmy Page doesn't have it either, on his online archives at Jimmypage.com. And we have Grant not remembering it taking place, and Page talking to media in NY about how Relf and McCarty were finished (GO Magazine article published 21 June 1968) and he and Dreja were moving on with a new Yardbirds band. Grant was the manager of the band and was with them on those final dates -- so I do not think his statement is WP:UNDUE? Grant has more weight as a source than the published authors such as Russo, and certainly more weight than the Rough Guide to Rock source used to cite the show (yes, I realize there are better, earlier sources that also list the Luton date and I have been trying to find the original reference for that show taking place). You'll notice I did not remove the Luton reference, respecting wikipedia edit rules, but rather worked around it.

I have also messaged Jim McCarty on this, so hopefully we'll get this cleared up. Even if he did respond it would be not usable independent research, but I do think it's fine as is. Morgan johndavid (talk) 11:57, 10 July 2017 (UTC)


 * Thanks for adding the clarification on Relf's lyrics. I forgot to mention that "the overhauled arrangement" wasn't all by Page – McCarty & Dreja added parts that are very similar to those later performed by LZ. Wall notes one performance "sounds almost identical musically to the number Page would take credit for on the first Zeppelin album", implying that other credit was due; Shadwick also notes the "strong affinity" and ascribes the arrangement to the group.
 * Good points about the Luton gig. However, Grant is well-known for zealously protecting Page's interests – in his same mention about "falling apart in America" he also noted "There was a big row in a Holiday Inn. So I drafted out a letter giving Jimmy the rights to the name, which they all signed."  He may have other (legal or contractual) reasons for placing the dissolution at this time and place.  Also Page commented "This [Shrine performances] was not the last date of the US tour, we had two more dates, both at the Montgomery International Speedway in Alabama, before the curtains would close on this incarnation of the Yardbirds in the USA."  Why add "in the USA"? If indeed these were the last shows ever, he could have indicated more finality.  The Luton gig may have been a one-off, to satisfy a previous commitment (the New Yardbirds weren't up and running yet).  In any event, the article wording could be improved – I'll make some suggestions later.

—Ojorojo (talk) 15:05, 10 July 2017 (UTC)


 * This afternoon (Tues), Jim McCarty messaged me back to say the Luton gig did happen. I asked if there was any reason Grant wouldn't recall it, Jim said he didn't know, "maybe he had a memory lapse". You were right all along - I was putting too much weight on Grant's memory while we have established that members of the band are the sources for the show happening. I then found (finally) detailed info on the Luton 7 July show in Alan Clayson's book The Yardbirds (Backbeat Books, 2002). Clayson wrote: "Supported by the otherwise unsung Lynton Grae Sound, the Yardbirds downed tools as a working band on 7th July 1968, a drizzling Sunday evening. In the inauspicious setting of Luton Technical College, they'd run through this final evensong any old how; Keith forgetting words and Chris fluffing one or two bass runs while Jimmy tried to make a show of it." So there we have it, double confirmation and then Jimmy's "in the USA" note on his website. I deleted Grant's misremembered info - no point in having the manager not remember things on wikipedia - and added the direct Clayson source page, 118. Plus added the Russo book source which also has Luton date (can't use the independent research w/ Jim on wiki). Thanks for not letting this go - and please feel free to spruce up where you see fit. It's great to know that others are as interested in making the Yardbirds wiki pages as in-depth and professional as the Beatles pages are! (Now we just have to find some usable artwork to break up the text blocks a little!) Morgan johndavid (talk) 04:49, 12 July 2017 (UTC)
 * Great to hear that McCarty isn't tired of answering old Yardbirds questions! I've held off on editing the article until I feel I can to do a complete GA- or FA-level overhaul (meanwhile brought some YB songs and albums to GA). Despite their twists and turns, ups and downs, and one of the worst cases of the handling of their recording catalogue, they definitely rank as one of the most influential bands of their era.  It's good to see that others share the interest. —Ojorojo (talk) 14:10, 12 July 2017 (UTC)
 * Yes, I think we do have at minimum a "good article" here. It would be great to get featured article status. I want to address a couple of things mentioned here on the talk page, firstly your note on "Dazed and Confused". I think it's important to note Page as the primary architect, but I do realize that McCarty had to have had some input and is on record saying he went out and bought the record and. If we just added "arrangement overhauled by Page and band" we would have it covered. More details should be dealt with on the "Dazed and Confused" page, which should also be submitted GA and FA - it's nearly perfect!
 * Minor point: "with overhauled arrangement by" is redundant – in music, an arrangement already means a modification or adaptation of sorts. Perhaps something like:
 * "They also performed songs by the Velvet Underground ("I'm Waiting for the Man") and Bob Dylan ("Most Likely You Go Your Way And I'll Go Mine"). During the tour, "Dazed and Confused" was added to their repertoire.  Adapted from the original written by American folk singer Jake Holmes, it became a popular feature of their live shows from November 1967 onwards.  With revised lyrics, Page recorded a similar arrangement with Led Zeppelin for their first album (Page was initially credited as the sole writer; in 2011, he and Holmes settled on the additional "Inspired by Jake Holmes" credit)."


 * I left it intentionally vague; the specifics are maybe better discussed in the D&C article (I've added more comments on that talk page). —Ojorojo (talk) 15:00, 13 July 2017 (UTC)
 * Agreed - with overhauled arrangement is awfully wordy and dedundant. Not sure why I just didn't say "rearranged" Good on all but will point out that the Page-Holmes settlement is undisclosed, so we can't know exactly what their agreement is. This is why on the Dazed and Confused page the wording is very careful and in separate statements. Morgan johndavid (talk) 00:21, 14 July 2017 (UTC)
 * OK, maybe: (Page was initially credited as the sole writer; after a lawsuit in 2011, "Inspired by Jake Holmes" was added to album song credits). Also in the D&C article, I don't see the point of the ASCAP statement. It's not a copyright authority; ISWC and probably dozens of other sources don't show the update. —Ojorojo (talk) 13:45, 14 July 2017 (UTC)
 * Second, and you may have noticed, I switched the order of Jones being recruited and Dreja bowing out. All sources agree Jones contacted Page before Page, Grant and Dreja went to Birmingham to hear Plant's band. (Russo describes the process from Dreja's perspective and you really begin to feel bad for Dreja in all that.
 * Thirdly, and I hope you're in agreement on this - More about the Beck years could be done. His playing on Roger the Engineer is landmark and I feel Beck doesn't quite get the focus he should have here. Also - In Martin Powers' book on Beck, Napier Bell says he felt the band was all about Beck at that point and was not keen on Page joining. I would want to see what could be added from Powers' book there. Then we have Beck's amplifier problems in summer of '66 and the destruction of amplifiers 10/21 in Worcester (Russo, pg. 238) and other incidents. The equipment problems are a big deal, imo, because the Yardbirds are building different guitar landscapes at higher volumes prior to the amplification improvements that make this possible. They also put Napier-Bell at odds with Page who was demanding that Napier-Bell be professional about replacing their damaged gear. Ultimately these conflicts force Bell out (better left for the Bell page).
 * Definitely more Beck (and less Page). The period from Beck joining to Samwell-Smith leaving (March 1965 to June 1966) is their peak, both creatively and commercially.  In that brief time before Cream,  Hendrix, and San Francisco, Beck and the Yardbirds were the pioneers/proponents of the guitar-dominated hard/psychedelic rock sound and managed to have six Top 40 hits.  Although the Beck/Page lineup produced "Happenings" and "Stroll On" (and probably some good shows), Beck was unraveling and they didn't write any good material.  I haven't given Napier-Bell much thought, but he certainly didn't fill Samwell-Smith's role (who may be the unsung hero of the group). When Beck left, it seemed that there were two Yardbird groups – the Most-guided studio group that produced the spotty popish Little Games and some forgettable singles vs. the heavier extended arrangements/solos live performance group that was never recorded properly.  Despite their billing to satisfy previous commitments, I think the "New Yardbirds" is another band and there is too much on what essentially is early LZ. —Ojorojo (talk) 19:21, 13 July 2017 (UTC)
 * Definitely more Beck. I do like the Page era detail but the Beck section needs to be more prominent. This is my No. 1 concern as far as making improvements. Morgan johndavid (talk) 00:21, 14 July 2017 (UTC)
 * Finally, and I think this is important as well - the British press panned the dual lead guitar debut on the Rolling Stones '66 tour - 9/23/66 at Royal Albert Hall. This is also in the Powers book on Beck. They weren't getting paid much for all this work, either, and these are all factors that lead them into the clutches of Mickie Most. There's a reasonable way within Wikipedia rules to point to Napier-Bell's gross mismanagement without prosecuting the guy, and I will look for the best way to do it. Most - if not all - of my proposed additions deal with the six month period of 1966 where the Yardbirds seem poised for really big things but are not able to cash in for many reasons. I would, however, like to hear your thoughts on this before making changes to what I think is already a very good article.
 * --Morgan johndavid (talk) 23:10, 12 July 2017 (UTC)

Backing Sonny Boy Williamson
"... tour England and Germany" appears to be a left-over from a much earlier version of the article and info like this should not necessarily be relied on. The group backed SBWII on various gigs from 12/7/63 to about 3/13/64. Russo shows all of these in the UK (mostly in the greater London area). Providing inline citations for every sentence is a good habit to get into – most GA/FA reviewers will ask for them. —Ojorojo (talk) 16:27, 1 August 2017 (UTC)
 * Yep, it was in there from earlier. I was just tidying up and clarifying the timeline, mostly. If Germany dates are not in the Russo book, they most likely didn't happen. Russo's book is on its third edition; in the latest edition, there was a Yardbirds-Jimmy Page archivist helping him clear up the calendar, and he's a real stickler on show dates. In fact he's the guy who still insists the Luton show July 7 didn't happen because there are no ads, flyers, press announcement, ticket stubs, review or any such indication that it happened, plus Grant's lack of recollection about it. Anyway, he's not too happy the Luton gig is still listed in the books. Will delete mention of Germany shows. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Morgan johndavid (talk • contribs) 16:34, 7 August 2017 (UTC)
 * From a quick look through "Yardbirds Concert Dates" in Russo's 6th edition (2016), it appears that the only dates with Clapton outside of Britain were 8/17–29/64 at a hotel in Switzerland. Also, there is a copy of a crumpled handbill for the Luton gig (p. 115). It reads (but with caps & logo):
 * Luton College of Technology
 * Dedfordshire
 * Students Union
 * Proudly Present
 * Yardbirds
 * Sunday 7th July 1968
 * At 8:00
 * Tickets 10/
 * [La b. y 44.20] ?
 * Yardbirds Management: Peter Grant
 * Also, a couple more leftovers: the guitar tab show four chords (Em–G–A–Am) and I don't think a harpsichord is "strummed" (these are may be better in the FYL article). —Ojorojo (talk) 22:30, 7 August 2017 (UTC)

More Sonny Boy
,, and others: According to WP:WPMAG, "The discography section of the musician's primary article should also provide a summary of the musician's major works. In most cases this is done using a simple list of their studio albums, leaving a complete listing of releases to the discography article... Live and compilation albums, EPs, singles, etc. should generally not be included." (emphasis added)

The album with Sonny Boy is not a "major work" by the Yardbirds.
 * 1) It's really a Sonny Boy album and the Yardbirds merely provide backup: SBW wrote and sings all the songs. YBs apparently had no say in the material or arrangements and Relf only makes a little noise for the recording. It's not The Yardbirds and/with/featuring Sonny Boy Williamson.
 * 2) The album was not released by their official record companies, Columbia (UK) and Epic (US).
 * 3) Some view it as an exploitation album – it wasn't released until two years later, after they had a string of hits with Beck. A more modern image of YBs are shown on the cover with Beck, but Clapton was the guitarist.

Although Five Live is not a studio album, it certainly is a "major work". It was their debut album and one of only two released in the UK during their career. Several critics note its importance as live album for the time and it appears on Larkin's All Time Top 1000 Albums. On the other hand, well-know critic Richie Unterberger notes: "[Sonny Boy Williamson and the Yardbirds] should really be treated as a Sonny Boy Williamson release that happens to have a soon-to-be-famous-but-still-embryonic band in the background, in the manner of the sides the Beatles cut in Hamburg supporting Tony Sheridan". The Beatles album with Sheridan is not included in the discography section of their WP bio. Unless someone comes up with a reliable source that identifies it as a "major work" by the Yardbirds, the album will be removed from the discography section and the YB album chronology restored to before SBW was added.

—Ojorojo (talk) 18:41, 31 October 2019 (UTC)
 * The SBW album is now in a separate section as a collaboration, so it is not in the "YB album chronology". Anyone interested in the way the band developed would be interested in this album. RGCorris (talk) 19:02, 31 October 2019 (UTC)
 * Makes no difference: since the album is in the "Discography" section, it should be a major work. "Album chronology" refers to the infobox chronologies. —Ojorojo (talk) 21:11, 31 October 2019 (UTC)