Talk:The finger/Archive 1

Headline text
So in Sweden a conservative is a "pundit" but no names are called against the  liberal? i am so sick of this liberal bull shit one sidedness every where

There is a beautiful picture of a classic 60's protester flying the bird right in the face of the camera. I believe this was a cover of Time or Life in the late 60's.  IMHO this picture is  an aboslute must for viewing in the "classic examples" section of this  topic. Unfortunately, I have not been able to find the picture. If someone can do so, I would be most grateful as would all knowledge  seekers looking for enlightenment on how to fly the bird.

Old talk
someone who knows the story should add to this article the origins of "the finger". I know it has to do with archery exploits during wars between the french and the english,  but I don't know specifics.

Also, IMHO, this article should be named "the finger" -  Kingturtle 21:54 Apr 7, 2003 (UTC)


 * The 'archery exploits' "explanation" is from an old shaggy-dog story (that  means a long  joke) with the punch line of  "pluck yew". It isn't serious.


 * The "origin" of the 'V-sign' is certainly widely established 'knowledge' within the UK. Perhaps there  should a whole section of the wiki devoted to hand gestures and their origins? -- Basswulf 09:25 9 Jun 2003 (UTC)


 * See snopes : it is an urban legend. Gareth 21:09, 29 Jun 2004 (UTC)


 * I am on vacation, and I cannot necessarily do the research, but I know of some  decent sources that suggest this explanation is legit. It may be an  urban legend that this explanation is an urban legend ;) When I get the  time, and am in the right city to get to the right library, I will check  up on the info. Kingturtle 22:07, 30 Jun 2004 (UTC)


 * Isn't it pretty non-NPOV  to use underscore to symbolize the word "fuck?" I'm changing that.

That's my finger. No really. Ich 04:26, Jun 20, 2004 (UTC)

see mammalian prehensile digits... right ^_^... [maestro] 10:29, 24 Sep 2004 (UTC)

I've always heard the origin of the finger coming from a battle in The  Hundred-Years'  War where the French had won a battle and were putting up their fingers  a la "We're #1!", and the British mistakenly took the symbol as  offensive because of its similarity to genitalia...can anyone confirm  this?64.24.4.167 16:24, 28 Oct 2004 (UTC)

I've never heard anyone suggest that "the finger" comes from English  archers. Two-fingers, yes, that's common knowledge in the UK, but not one. And the "pluck yew" thing is patently ridiculous and shouldn't be on the page. [217.42.38.179]

I agree, this is adding confusion to confusion. The 'two fingers' origin may itself be apocryphal, but it makes slightly more sense than this, which I can only attribute to second-order  mythologising. (Besides, if you cut off someone's middle finger they could still draw a bow...)  I'm going to edit this, unless someone can  provide references for the "popularity" of this story. Alai 23:00, 6 Feb 2005 (UTC)

The photo could be of better quality. Also what about the variation of the finger in which the thumb is also extended out to the side? I heard that way of giving the finger is supposed to be more dramatic. Just a few thoughts. --Sudachi 11:09, 17 Feb 2005 (UTC)

I'd like to see some sort of supporting evidence for the term "Trudeau  salute". I'm sure it does exist but I find it hard to believe that it is commonly used.
 * Google gives 457 results.  &mdash;Caesura(t) 20:45, 11 Jun 2005 (UTC)
 * The 'finger cutting' indeed does refer to the two fingered salute of English fame.   In Britain two fingers up is used almost always before using the single  digit, and (as a couple of historical texts have referred to) at some  point the English started waving a pair of them around in order to make  it clear they retained full use.  Whether that's the very original  origin is another matter entirely. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Koncorde (talk • contribs) 02:16, 6 May 2007 (UTC).

Mike Wirth
Here the link to "Finger" by  Mike Wirth http://www.mikewirthart.com/index.php?option=com_wrapper&Itemid=23

during an NFL game
does anyone remember this? i saw it once on a TV bloopers show. toward the end of an NFL game, the camera gives a close up of a dejected fan, his team  losing by a lot of points, he looks into the camera and gives the  finger. since it was live TV, it went onto the airwaves. when they showed the blooper later, the finger was blurred out. does anyone remember this? if we can get details about it, i'd like to add it to this article. Kingturtle 18:04, 19 January 2006 (UTC)
 * It was in the early years of Monday Night Football. It was Don Meredith, I believe, who made a comment  about the fan saying "we're number one". It wasn't blurred out because,  obviously, it was live. &mdash;Wrathchild  (talk) 19:33, 27 February  2006 (UTC)
 * This is from http://www.funtrivia.com/en/Sports/Monday-Night-Football-11054.html On October  9, 1972, the Oakland Raiders were headed for a 34-0 thumping of  the Houston Oilers (Oakland's third win in as many MNF appearances,  scoring 34 points each time).  As the fans emptied from the Astrodome  stands during the final quarter, the cameras found a wonderful shot: a  fan, seemingly alone in his section, was sleeping. "A vivid  picturization of the excitement attendant upon this game", was what  Howard Cosell called the image of the sleeping man.  Then,  unfortunately, the man woke up, and less fortunately, "flipped off" the  camera.  Without missing a beat, Meredith commented, "He thinks they're  number one in the nation!"
 * See also:

Bird?
Where does the term flipping the bird come from? Anyone know?


 * Same question here. Last night at dinner, a group of my friends and I wondered about the term, but no one really  had any plausible explanation. I was hoping Wikipedia might know, but  alas.

Canada
Erm:
 * Canada and most of Europe have a more liberal stance, and modest to heavy use of the  gesture is tolerated.

I don't know what part of Canada the writer was talking about -- things might  well be different in Quebec,  for instance -- but giving  someone the finger in Ontario is probably as rude as it is anywhere in  the States. --Saforrest 07:54, 7 February 2006 (UTC)

Yeah i totally agree i live in a good part of toronto and i almost got my  ass kicked because some dude thought i gave him the finger, when i  actually didn't. Even in Quebec where i used to live the  middle finger  is considered pretty offensive to give to someone. i don't know anyone who would tolerate being given the finger in most of canada. --Duhon July 24 2006 (UTC)

Where i live you can still get beaten up for biting your thumb at someone.

I think that wikipedia should be careful about generalizations. In Sweden, giving someone a finger is usually not nearly as offensive as in some other countries. It is most often just seen as an inmature act, since a large proportion of "bird  flippers" in Sweden are in their preteens (yes, citation is needed for  that). Ran4 (talk) 06:41, 9 August 2008 (UTC)

Bush example
In the "famous example" of George Bush giving the finger, it mentions a video which  emerged in 2005 of the then Governer of Texas. It needs to be clarified, whether the video is from when he was governor and only subsequently  emerged in 2005, or whether it emerged in 2005 at all, or whatever - it just needs  to be clarified. it also needs to be clarified for me at least whether this is a hoax or not - the still isn't so convincing. I'd appreciate if someone who knows what went on, to give this a look. Cormaggio @ 17:08, 24 March 2006 (UTC)
 * I've linked to a screenshot of the video that's been on wikipedia for a while.  I've  also added an external link to the video itself.-PlasmaDragon 18:05, 28 March 2006 (UTC)
 * Thanks. And the wording is ok, too - I suppose I just read it wrong. Cormaggio @ 23:01, 28 March 2006 (UTC)

It's no hoax. This is a screenshot from when he was running for governor and they were all joking around in the studio before taping. It is dangerous to take things like this out of context.Steven 17:24, 12 July 2006 (UTC)

Stronach and MacKay
I have removed this claim:


 * Peter MacKay, deputy leader of the Conservative  Party of Canada also  famously used the gesture toward fellow M.P. Belinda  Stronach.

There's simply no way I would have missed as juicy a bit of news as this, given  how broadly the whole MacKay/Stronach romantic arc was played out in  the press, and Google can't find a trace. It didn't happen, at least not in public. --Saforrest 03:47, 15 April 2006 (UTC)

V Sign Origin
I have heard the V Sign explained as 'dual penetration' but I don't know if there's any evidence  of this.--Jack Upland 07:05, 22 April 2006 (UTC)

I thought the "V sign" was the one with it's origins after the battle of  Agincourt. Maybe the story has just gotten twisted so many times over the centuries, but I heard it that the French cut off both the middle  and index fingers of the archers. It's still quite possible to draw a bow with your index and ring finger, and practice would make up for the  weakness of the ring finger. --122.104.226.191 (talk) 06:18, 19 July 2008 (UTC)

Picture
No offence, but the picture looks really atrocious. Can someone take a better one please? See gesture for better examples. Also it would be nice to have a pic of some celebrity, for example this. PizzaMargherita 05:16, 3 May 2006 (UTC)
 * I agree. I've replaced the current picture (which also seems to be vanity since the  uploader has only two edits) with that of Nelson  Rockefeller's.--TBC TaLk?!?  08:00, 6 August 2006 (UTC)
 * There's a couple problems with that.  One, you're replacing a free use image with a  fair use one-  we're supposed to use free use images whenever possible to protect the  site from legal action.  Second, that picture doesn't have a valid  copyright tag, source and other issues and thus is eligible for  deletion.  Third, the "atrocious" picture excellently profiles the  actual gesture, the Rockefeller is seen from the side.  I moved that  picture to the "Famous examples" section. --TheTruthiness 08:47, 6 August 2006 (UTC)

Consider this done. I have uploaded a professionally photographed picture of myself giving the one finger salute. This picture is under the GPL/Commons license. --Allyn 09:54, 11 March 2007 (UTC)

Better images please
I'm very surprised that we don't have lots of pictures of this, but I can't find  any better than the blurry one currently in the article. Can someone take some nice clear pictures of just the hand, one for each different  variation? — Omegatron 00:35, 22 May 2006 (UTC)

Please continue to provide quality content
I think that this picture is excellent in its depiction of the gesture at  hand and does an excellent job of conveying its meaning in a  contemporary context. Wikipedia, you've done it again!? 69.209.208.221 17:14, 19 July 2006 (UTC)

I agree, I see in the subjects face all the emotion that is generally  conveyed with the meaning of the gesture. This is perfect for anyone wanting to understand it's significance. --67.102.158.43 14:24, 25 July 2006 (UTC)

spam email
I get this occasionally:

Subject: History of the Middle Finger

> We never stop learning.... For all you history lovers and speech > pathologists! > >              Subject: " History of middle finger" > >        Well, now......here's something I never knew before, and now > that I know it, I feel compelled to  send it on  to my more intelligent > friends in the hope that they, too, will feel edified. Isn't history more > fun when you know something about it? > >       Before the Battle of Agincourt  in 1415, the French, anticipating > victory over the English, proposed to cut off the middle finger of all > captured English soldiers. Without the middle finger it would be >  impossible to draw the renowned English longbow and therefore they > would be incapable of fighting in the future. This famous English > longbow was made of the native English Yew tree, and the act of  >  drawing the longbow was known as"plucking the  yew" (or  "pluck yew"). > >        Much to the bewilderment of the French, the English won a major > upset and began mocking the French by waving their middle fingers at > the  defeated French, saying,  ''See, we can still pluck yew! '' Since > 'pluck yew' is rather difficult to say, the difficult consonant cluster at  > the > beginning has gradually changed to a  labiodentals  fricative 'F', and > thus the words often used in conjunction with the one-finger-salute! > >        It is also because of the pheasant feathers on the arrows used > with the longbow that the symbolic gesture is  known as "giving the  > bird." > >        IT IS STILL AN APPROPRIATE SALUTE TO THE FRENCH TODAY! > >        And yew thought yew knew every plucking thing!

The article mentions it briefly, but it should address all of it. DyslexicEditor 01:22, 13 June 2006 (UTC)


 * And you think a spam email is a reliable source? — Omegatron 02:23, 13 June 2006 (UTC)


 * No, so I went here and the article didn't say much about all the contents, just  something vague and brief.  DyslexicEditor 15:29, 13 June 2006 (UTC)

it means anal penetration
It is more likely a reference to playing with one's asshole, or a threat of anal penetration. Since most people do not do that in modern society, it isn't understood. But it would be the most common finger to stick into one's own ass for pleasure purposes. No, I do not know from experience, but I can easily imagine it.

English Battle
One of my Lit teachers had said the finger was used in a battle with the English against the French It's meaning was "victory." She said it was the battle of innisfree or something along those lines. This may be worth looking into. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 209.189.246.221 (talk) 00:27, 11 October 2011 (UTC)
 * Not quite: this side of the pond we use two fingers in a V sign, which traditionally dates to the battle of Agincourt, where the French threatened to amputate two fingers from captured English archers so that they would be unable to draw a bow again, hence two fingers show that we are still able to do battle. IdreamofJeanie (talk) 13:14, 7 February 2012 (UTC)
 * Not quite, EITHER way, it is an ancient urban legend. As is discussed in the spur articles included here and in the obscene gesture article.Wzrd1 (talk) 03:48, 8 February 2012 (UTC)

Crossed arms variation
Is there another article somewhere that describes the related gesture where the arm giving the finger is passed underneath the other fore-arm, making a cross shape? I don't even know what that's called, but it's clearly related to "The Finger", as the two gestures are most often combined into one. (Though not always - this gesture, with the finger replaced by a little hand-wave, was used with comedic effect as a respectful salute in the movie "Spaceballs".) --Lurlock 21:53, 19 June 2006 (UTC)
 * This sounds like a variant of a gesture (typically Italian-American?) consisting of crossing one's own chest horizontally with the non-dominant forearm, while forcefully bringing the dominant arm up under it, in a fist, between the object of the gesture and the first arm so that the inside of the dominant elbow strikes it and brings the fist's uppercut motion to a sudden stop. My impression is that the desire for pain and harm to be inflicted on the recipient is intended, plus at least one of the following sexually tinged insults (perhaps with intentional double or triple meaning):
 * Fuck you
 * Fuck you in the ass
 * Fuck you (wherever) with a fist or foot
 * I think i may infer the sexual element, and Italian orgin, by association of the gesture with the Italian vaffanculo (a.k.a. va fan gul), literally "go and do it in the ass" (i.e., i presume, "go take it up your ass"). I construe the abrupt arresting of the fist's upward motion as a emphasizing a powerful thrust and its force being borne by the target, in contrast to relatively weak gestures that seem to peter out as if decaying in response to gravity rather than graphically portraying an impact. As i say, i picture the gesture with a fist rather than the finger, but the finger variant strikes me as fairly natural if my account is accurate. --Jerzy•t 08:42, 20 November 2009 (UTC)

He was looking for the Bras d'honneur, I had trouble figuring it's name out at first as well. Jackass2009 (talk) 03:35, 27 January 2011 (UTC)

George W. Bush
"In some subcultures in the United States, it is known as the 'one fingered victory salute' which gained popularity after this video appeared on the Internet in October 2004, showing George W. Bush, at the time of the film the Governor of Texas, using the gesture while goofing off before beginning filming of a public address."
 * Was the film made in 2004? Because if so, I'd like to point out that George W. Bush was not the Governor of Texas by October 2004 as he had been president of the US for four years at that point. --Thaddius 22:11, 23 June 2006 (UTC)
 * It simply states that Bush was governor at the time the film was made. It makes no comment about when the film was made. Bhumiya (said/done) 00:21, 15 July 2006 (UTC)

Xzibit
"A popular MTV show, Pimp My Ride featured rapper Xzibit taking a car with a pair of Mickey Mouse gloves with four fingers including the thumb. As Xzibit drives the car, he wears the gloves and flips off the camera. Despite the technicality, it is still censored."

Despite what technicality ???

He's wearing a glove while giving the finger; he's literally "giving the finger" but technically you can't see it because of the glove being worn over the hand. Whether or not that's the same thing is debatable, but regardless that's the "technicality" referred to by the original author. 71.201.59.110 08:45, 5 September 2006 (UTC)


 * So which finger did he actually use ?Eregli bob (talk) 01:20, 2 August 2012 (UTC)

Phallic Symbol?
Neither I (nor anybody I know) thinks the finger is a phallic symbol. "The reference to coitus may be strengthened by first wetting the finger or by sucking on it." I have never heard of anyone doing that either. Who in the hells thinks of or does the gesture that way? --TheTruthiness 06:44, 29 July 2006 (UTC)


 * I've never seen or heard of this either.--67.102.158.43 18:53, 7 August 2006 (UTC)


 * That the finger is a phallic symbol is pretty much common knowledge, especially given the thought which it generally symbolizes ("Fuck you" is a decidedly phallic phrase, if we're going to consider the active/passive roles typically associated in coitus that would historically assign meaning). I've never seen anyone wet the finger or suck on it, but the middle finger is the closest thing to a universal insulting gesture the world has so I wouldn't be surprised if those are common regional variations. --The Centipede 17:42, 12 August 2006 (UTC)

To quote the Wikipedia entry on phallus, "Any object that visually resembles a penis or acts as a symbol for it may also be referred to as a phallus; however, such objects are more correctly referred to as being phallic." In other words, "the finger" is a "phallic symbol" simply because it resembles a penis (and the erection of the finger of course results in an image resembling an erect penis.) It doesn't matter who thinks the gesture is not a phallic symbol; it just is one. 71.201.59.110 09:41, 5 September 2006 (UTC)

I have seen people do it, and it has a certain flair.HichamVanborm 02:45, 30 September 2006 (UTC)

I also thought that that was it's one and only meaning, literally, 'fuck you,' or 'please be forcibly sodimised,' with the middle finger being a graphical representation of the instrument with which the act is executed. Should the article not at least mention this?

I have seen several people suck the tip of the finger before flipping someone off. It might be local to Scandinavia. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 195.67.68.3 (talk) 10:27, 6 July 2009 (UTC)


 * It's universally considered a phallic symbol, and has been for centuries. Perhaps it helps to remember that the extended finger is often accompanied by the fingers on either side being curled (perhaps moreso in the past than currently): "the bird with two eggs", and that a lot of phallic symbolism involves birds (fertility symbols themselves). In that form, it's obviously a penis with the testicles. Also, realize why the gesture is so popular: it represents defiance. In a lot of cultures, an erect penis implies such. CFLeon (talk) 23:59, 22 June 2010 (UTC)

The Finger - punk rock band
Since The Finger redirects to tris page, I've added a redirect to the punk rock band. There is definitely no need for a disambiguation page in this case. --Cyhatch 11:04, 2 September 2006 (UTC)

Image
Why is someone continually replacing Image:Middle finger.JPG? Not only is the image in public domain, it's also more focused on the finger than Image:Male_right_middle_crop.jpg is--TBC TaLk?!? 16:14, 13 September 2006 (UTC)
 * I can see two reasons. One, people want to show their face (or their brother's face) on Wikipedia. Two, Image:Middle finger.JPG is a very bad picture indeed. Compare with some other pictures at gesture of professional quality. PizzaMargherita 19:24, 13 September 2006 (UTC)
 * One, that image is not in the public domain, but the GNU Free Documentation License. The other picture is also released under the GNU Free Documentation License, so that argument is invalid as they're both free images.  I agree with Pizza that the Image:Middle finger.JPG is horrid.  The guy is both paler and has bonier hands than me (that's saying something), and the picture is overall just creepy and awful.  I have no idea who the dude in image:Male_right_middle_crop.jpg is, but his face is far less scary that that horrible hand that gives me nightmares. --TheTruthiness 23:55, 13 September 2006 (UTC)
 * That said, I agree with TBC that we should have a picture that focusses on the hand only. I also fear legal issues if the person depicted is unaware of having his picture on the net. Who knows, I may get around to post a better picture in the future... PizzaMargherita 06:18, 15 September 2006 (UTC)

—Preceding unsigned comment added by 207.6.246.111 (talk) 07:06, 29 November 2007 (UTC)

I am not a wikipedia member but I would like to add that if you won't use that picture becuse of a genreal crowd of people then why would you write fuck not f!uck?

Usage in Germany
Similarly insulting gestures in Germany include making a circle by touching the index finger to the thumb (perceived in America as the "OK" sign) to call someone asshole; [...] Being an Austrian myself that has worked and lived in Germany, I never heard of this one. Can anybody cite a source for such a usage? Dagonet 17:11, 8 November 2006 (UTC)

Being a German, I must say that I have never heard of anybody finding this gesture offensive. I use it myself a lot (to signal "perfect" or "ok") and have never gotten into any trouble, nor did anybody even find it offensive. --88.64.13.160 17:28, 30 November 2006 (UTC)

Concerning the circle created by touching the index finger to the thumb as an obscene gesture in Germany: It maybe that observers of this gesture were seeing American soldiers,in civilian dress, playing a game called the "asshole game". It uses the same gesture with the exception that the gesture, unlike the standard OK sign, is presented upside down with the hand below the waist. The object of the game is to con another person into looking at the gesture and if they do, they must pay a forfeit which is to be forcefully hit on the upper arm. This game has subtle strategies, is very competitive, can be played anywhere at anytime and is very popular with young soldiers. I have often played this game when I was a young soldier. oldasasoldier

Actually this gesture is very common when driving a car and wanting to insult another person because of his/her driving style. In other contexts it also can be meant as "perfect", often combined with the corresponding mimic, or even a kissing sound. But if someone shows you this gesture on a German Autobahn (Highway), he surely doesn't admire your style of driving xD 84.62.26.151 (talk) 23:59, 1 May 2008 (UTC)

What is the German equivalent? I always got the impression it was the first finger, as I was always told you don't order "Ein Bier, bitte," with the index finger, but a thumb up, for that or similar reason. Caisson 06 (talk) 21:42, 24 April 2009 (UTC)
 * That doesn't match with my understanding. German's count on their fingers starting with the thumb. What you just said, if the bartender had only been paying attention to your fingers, would have gotten you "zwei Bier", because you have two fingers held up. "Ein Bier" is just the thumb. The confusion with American gestures usually comes when the American orders two beers with his index and middle finger showing, and the German bartender thinks they're ordering three beers. 63.87.189.17 (talk) 16:19, 25 July 2009 (UTC)
 * That's what I meant, just the thumb up=ein Bier. I think you're dead-on with the counting.  I think we in the US tend to count index thru pinky, then thumb.  We use the thumb to keep the other fingers down. Caisson 06 (talk) 21:10, 3 September 2009 (UTC)

Moved to talk page
All of the following is actually about the V sign and not about the middle finger. Also, there is no source presented either for the myth or for its rebuttal (snopes.com can hardly count as a reliable source about anything, and much of the text seems like the editor's personal statements anyway). Furthermore, this is supposed to be an encyclopedia, so using rhetorical questions etc. is totally inappropriate. --194.145.161.227 13:16, 23 November 2006 (UTC)

It has long been told that the famous "two-fingers salute" and/or "V sign" derives from the gestures of English archers, fighting at Agincourt. The myth claims that the French cut off two fingers on the right hand of captured archers and that the gesture was a sign of defiance by those who were not mutilated. Knights of the time were extremely difficult to challenge in open engagement due to the amount of armor they wore, and the enormity of the horses they rode. One problem the knights faced however, was the English longbow. From a garrison or fortification, longbowmen would string their arrows in quick recession and aim for the armors weak spots. This resulted in many casualties for the knights. If the knights did however capture the fortification, they would either kill the longbowmen, or chop off their middle finger (necessary for stringing arrows effectively). As for the bowmen that escaped, upon seeing a knight, they would hold up their middle finger in mockery of the knight as if to say "ha, ha, you didn't get me".

Unfortunately, this is by no means the way that it happened at the time. Bowman were not valuable prisoners; they stood outside the chivalric system and were considered the social inferiors of men-at-arms. There was no monetary reward to be obtained by capturing them, nor was there any glory to be won by defeating them in battle. As Keegan wrote, "To meet a similarly equipped opponent was the occasion for which the armoured soldier trained perhaps every day of his life from the onset of manhood. To meet and beat him was a triumph, the highest form which self-expression could take in the medieval nobleman's way of life." Archers were not the "similarly equipped" opponents that armored soldiers triumphed in defeating; if the two clashed in combat, the armored soldier would either kill an archer outright or leave him to bleed to death rather than go to the wasteful effort of taking him prisoner.

Moreover, if archers could be ransomed, then cutting off their middle fingers would be a senseless move. Your opponent is not going to pay you (or pay you much) for the return of mutilated soldiers, so now what do you do with them? Take on the burden and expense of caring for them? Kill them outright and violate the medieval moral code of civilized warfare? (Henry V was heavily criticized for supposedly having ordered the execution of French prisoners at Agincourt.)

Even if killing prisoners of war did not violate the moral code of the times, what would be the purpose of cutting off fingers and then executing these same people? Why not simply kill them outright in the first place? Do you return these prisoners to your opponents in exchange for nothing, thereby providing them with trained soldiers who can fight against you another day? (Even if archers whose middle fingers had been amputated could no longer effectively use their bows, they were still capable of wielding mallets, battleaxes, swords, lances, daggers, maces, and other weapons, as archers typically did — and as they indeed did at Agincourt — when the opponents closed ranks with them and the fighting became hand-to-hand.) 

Jean Froissart (circa 1337-circa 1404) was a historian and the author of Froissart's Chronicles, a document that is essential to an understanding of Europe in the fourteenth century and to the twists and turns taken by the Hundred Years' War. The story of the English waving their fingers at the French is told in the first person account by Jean Froissart. However, the description is not of an incident at the Battle of Agincourt, but rather at the siege of a castle nearby in the Hundred Years' War. Adding to the evidence is that by all accounts Jean Froissart died before the battle actually took place; it was therefore rather difficult for him to have written about it.

''One should note that Jean Froissart's writings aren't the most reliable and that a similar story is told about the English giving the V sign. This can be further explored at the Battle of Agincourt.''

Image
I've just added a better pic. Walter Humala - Emperor of West Wikipedia| wanna Talk? 04:40, 10 December 2006 (UTC)

About Bush's picture, again
The photo depicting President Bush giving the finger gets periodically deleted and re-added. Interesting as the concept of a now-you-see-it-now-you-don't illustration is, it would be nice to reach some very rough consensus on this. My opinion is that it is just a photo of a real, and well-known, person doing the gesture spontaneously, and not staging it to create an image for the article. Opinions? (And, I am not sure that removing the picture qualifies as a "minor edit", as in something that "could never be the subject of a dispute", per Help:Minor_edit...) Goochelaar 08:18, 14 December 2006 (UTC)

Well, in accordance with WP policy I removed spam (WP:SPAM), and for the reasons given in this statement, the action qualifies the deletion. In all due respect, posting a picture of the President of the United States of America, or any other major political figure depicting an improper gesture is considered inappropriate and vulgar to the general public. Another aspect of the issue at hand is that posting a picture depicting such action inherently condescends and belittles the educated Wikipedian observer. Besides these observations, we must remember that children are being subjected to an improper view of their President, and that is unacceptable to the majority of Americans – moreover, because Wikipedia is an educational tool, the picture depicting ‘the finger’ adds no value to the article (as mostly everyone knows what the article is already pointing to). Depicting vulgar photos on the encyclopedia could also potentially become a Public relations nightmare in the WP environment, discouraging quality articles from ever being created because Americans (that see this content) respect their country, and their President (regardless of denomination) who is a figure thereof. I am sure Jimmy Wales would agree with this statement. Therefore, under Wikipedia spam policy provisions, the photo qualified for deletion, and I deleted it. Best regards, --Lperez2029 14:59, 14 December 2006 (UTC)

Then we're not gonna have any pic on this article, not even a drawing. -- Walt e r Humala - Emperor of West Wikipedia | wanna Talk? 03:20, 15 December 2006 (UTC)

Call me thick, but I do not see how any President Bush's photo may qualify as spam. He is not selling anything, is he? As for children or Americans being shocked, this is a reference work, and is bound to contain material (graphic or otherwise) that might be found unpleasant by somebody (anatomical details, disturbing news...). Finally, I am not an American, but if a President of my country (Italy) were caught doing a less-than-polite gesture, I wouldn't worry too much. He is responsible for his actions. But wait... It has already occurred! The article corna is: a) complete with a generic depiction of that vulgar gesture; b) endowed with an image of Italian former President Giovanni Leone making the corna. I find it an interesting photo documenting the gesture. Best regards to you, Goochelaar 08:47, 15 December 2006 (UTC)


 * Ok, Now I agree with u cuz' if I don't follow rules Ill get banned. (again) (Emperor banning) -- Walt e r Humala - Emperor of West Wikipedia[[Image:Crystal_Clear_app_korganizer.png|20px]]| wanna Talk? 04:04, 21 December 2006 (UTC)

I don't think I've ever read anything more wrong on Wikipedia than what Lperez2029 said. I sit in shock and awe of the complete lack of knowledge in regards to not only Wikipedia, but life in general. One of the main rules is that Wikipedia is UNCENSORED- so don't give this "it's for the children" line of bullshit. The President is not a sacred cow, it doesn't matter if it's President Bush, Johnny Cash or Bob from across the street- it's a perfectly valid picture. It is in no way spam by any sane person, the only reason to remove it is because the image does not have sufficient information on its copyright status. But the most ridiculous line was "the picture depicting ‘the finger’ adds no value to the article (as mostly everyone knows what the article is already pointing to)". I don't think I can begin to describe the idiocy contained in there. Maybe the WWII article shouldn't have any pictures because mostly everyone knows what the article is already pointing to? Maybe no articles should exist at all?? The article exists because we don't assume mostly everyone knows what the article is already pointing to, we have a picture because it clearly ILLUSTRATES the hand gesture we're talking about. Dear God, I can barely read Lperez2029's comment without laughing hysterically. I've put the old image:Male_right_middle_crop.jpg back as per the earlier discussion about it. --TheTruthiness 04:39, 21 December 2006 (UTC)

I agree that Wikipedia is not censored, Wikipedia may contain content that some readers consider objectionable or offensive. But we are talking about Spam (because the picture ‘politicizes’ the hand gesture) not censorship. You are from Canada I see. --Lperez2029 12:20, 21 December 2006 (UTC)


 * I am not an American, so I may not be able to appreciate fine points of US politics, but if I understand correctly your point, you are stating that the simple act of showing a photo depicting Bush is a form of anti-Bush propaganda... Goochelaar 15:56, 21 December 2006 (UTC)

Exactly. There is no need to link the hand gesture to any political figure because that would qualify it as spam. On another note, unlike TheTruthiness I appreciate your civility, for it is the true spirit of a Wikipedian. Like you, I am of Italian descent myself and clearly see the intellectual advantage and ability to reason things out without resorting to rudeness and personal attacks. If I were a Canadian, I would putTheTruthinessin his place because he would bring shame to the people of my country -- but I am not going to waste my time. Some people prefer to be Impolite, Inconsiderate, Offensive, Obscene, and I believe all these things together with incivility eventually belong in Wiki-Hell. Everything under the sun has its place. For (spam free) reference information, that's in an encyclopedia. For other things, it's in a thesaurus or a dictionary. Never should these be mixed. Best --Lperez2029 17:48, 21 December 2006 (UTC) 17:42, 21 December 2006 (UTC)
 * I don't coddle the stupid, sorry. My being Canadian doesn't mean anything- it has no bearing on the fact that it's not anti-Bush propaganda. If it was a photoshopped picture or had text added like "BUSH SUX" then yes, but an unedited picture cannot be propaganda.  He's one of the most famous and powerful people in the world, and him performing a rude hand esture is notable.  Remember, a former Canadian Prime Minister has been famously photographed performing the gesture- in fact I think it used to be on Wikipedia.  I never removed it from any article or tried to get it deleted because it isn't anti-Trudea propoganda.  Besides, Bush has done a billion things to give people a lower opinion of him then flipping the bird. --TheTruthiness 00:50, 23 December 2006 (UTC)

[At this point in the discussion a remark by a user was deleted by another user (see history for details). The deleted remark was harshly critical and could even be construed as a personal attack toward a third user, but are we sure that it is right to delete it? I strongly disagree, but did not revert the reversion, not intending to start even an edit skirmish. Goochelaar 11:44, 29 December 2006 (UTC)]


 * At THIS point, I'd consider it under fair use, based upon historic content, hence, permitted. OR we accept, GLOBALLY, revisionist history, based upon blocking of content, regardless of context, content or content or even intention. If THAT is the case, Wiki has utterly failed and is useless. If not, either GWB was an idiot in cultural terms or insulting in cultural terms, may HISTORY decide, not Wiki authors!

Free disclosure, I hated the SOB as president, but TOTALLY respect Wiki!Wzrd1 (talk) 04:05, 8 February 2012 (UTC)

Perception in non-Western cultures?
Does giving the finger mean anything in non-Western cultures? I'm sure it's probably known about, but the article never goes into details. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 74.193.151.207 (talk) 07:58, 11 January 2007 (UTC).
 * It dosnt mean much in the UK, and we're Western. Its just an American thing. Although mentioned as being used once in Italy and once by a Chezch, that was probably imitation of what they'd seen on the huge quantity of American films and tv we get in Europe. 89.243.197.22 (talk) 18:32, 21 February 2010 (UTC)


 * I remember a story in middle eastern newspaper, where a certain brit was cut off by a national, in the left lane, at rather high speed, where said national was making a U turn. Said brit signaled his displeasure by signaling with one finger, the middle one... Said national then made a repeat U turn and ran said brit off of the road, then beat said brit about the head and shoulders for the offense. As said national was from Qatari Air Force and said brit was of contractor status, one can only imagine. That said, at the time, every US national chuckled, as WE would've fed the Qatari the car door, then performed a beat down. Something our UK based counterparts considered rather worthwhile, but lacking in personal support. Something shocking to me, being well exposed to SAS and other special UK forces!Wzrd1 (talk) 04:13, 8 February 2012 (UTC)


 * What the hell?! It certainly DOES have a meaning here in the UK, just as much as in any other Western country.  I find this assertion that it's not used here completely bizarre, given that we arguably have a reputation for being the most offensive 1st world country (along with Ozzies). groovygower (talk) 00:17, 8 August 2012 (UTC)

Better picture
Can we get a better picture for the start of the article? What does everybody else think? Maybe Pete Doherty giving the finger? There's bound to be a ton of those around. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by ISeeDeadPixels (talk • contribs) 21:32, 28 January 2007 (UTC).
 * Try reading the previous discussion on this. --TheTruthiness 22:02, 28 January 2007 (UTC)

politics and the finger .... really boring - edit it out
the whole discourse on politicians and the finger is entirely boring - it would be much more interesting to describe what the roman and greek origins of the finger are in a little more detail and maybe discuss other places it has been used in history (non-political stuff)... most of us really don't care what politician is using the finger when we're looking up the history of it, we're interested in how it became part of modern culture. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 70.127.235.162 (talk) 01:48, 18 February 2007 (UTC).

New image (again)
I've added a new image of the middle finger. Any thoughts on it?-- TBC Φ  talk?  01:50, 18 February 2007 (UTC)

The finger looks unnaturally too small compared to the hand, but it's much better than most horrors this page has seen. 83.67.217.254 21:34, 1 March 2007 (UTC)
 * The picture was taken while the middle finger was at a slant, which might explain it looking a bit unnatural as you've mentioned. If I have time, I'll take a better one next week.-- TBC Φ  talk?  06:09, 4 March 2007 (UTC)

IMO, too dark and not very insistent/threatening. I don't sense any hostility. --CliffC 11:28, 4 March 2007 (UTC)

Yes, lighting is not great, plus the computer-aided trimming adds to the unnatural feel. A white wall like in finger would be fine. Thank you very much TBC. 83.67.217.254 13:23, 4 March 2007 (UTC)

As per above, I'll take a better picture as soon as possible. Until then, I'm reverting it back.-- TBC Φ  talk?  21:39, 11 April 2007 (UTC)

Question for Picture
In response to requests on this talk page, I attempted to add the following picture:

Which I had taken by a professional, with better lighting, and then commons-licensed. Then someone took it off, saying that it did not contribute anything. I am not replacing it until I get comments here. Do you want a better image? --Allyn 12:33, 23 March 2007 (UTC)


 * The new picture adds nothing, IMO. My criticism of an earlier picture of a hand and finger only as "...not very insistent/threatening. I don't sense any hostility" is not resolved by the new picture or the one currently on the page.  We should show the gesture and not the issuer, especially since neither one of these persons looks to be snarling an honest "FUCK YOU!"  --CliffC 13:51, 23 March 2007 (UTC)


 * Well, you might have a point. However, there are two sides of the gesture. There is the snarling option. Then there is the 'lets have some fun' option. People can get turned on by the gesture if it's in a loving, sensuous setting, as suggested by this picture. --Allyn 06:50, 24 March 2007 (UTC)

There are many things I don't like about this picture: Good luck to the "professional" who took the picture. We really need a good finger-only picture. 83.67.217.254 20:58, 29 March 2007 (UTC)
 * awful lighting (note flash-light shadow behind the finger and hair + saturated yellowness on the side)
 * reflecting and distracting raincoat (this is not an article about raincoats)
 * lack of contrast between subject and armchair

You have a point. I will suggest to the photog to use a remote flash with a diffuser and adjust the lighting. Thank you for the feedback.


 * Removing the picture since it's no longer under discussion. --CliffC 03:38, 25 April 2007 (UTC)

Reverted vandalism
Someone substituted billions of years for thousands of years. I put it back to thousands of years. --Allyn 02:40, 27 March 2007 (UTC)

New finger picture
I'm posting a new picture that I hope everyone will find suitably offensive. I was feeling hostile when it was taken, and I think the hostility comes through nicely. It is also anonymous (shows the hand only), so any passing vandals will find less to comment on. Best wishes to all the other odd types that watch this article. --CliffC 00:24, 1 May 2007 (UTC)

Newer finger picture
...was just added by User:Emijrp. A lovely show of sullen hostility. This is a picture we should stick with for a while. CliffC 18:33, 11 May 2007 (UTC)

Picture problem
The picture should just be of the gesture. No need for the face to be in it. I tried to crop it, but it was reverted twice by a user from another language Wiki... for a reason unknown to me. Does anyone else agree that it should show the gesture only, as this image is POV, suggesting that it's given for sullen reasons (which is rare), as opposed to being very angry or in another different situation? Opinions? hmwith talk   05:14, 6 June 2007 (UTC)
 * Completely agree, no need to have a face, or a watch as big as a fucking cockoo clock. We just need a decent picture of the hand alone. No show-offs please. Hopefully acceptable username 20:37, 15 June 2007 (UTC)

erm, where's the two fingers?
two fingers, with the palm facing the person performing the gesture? it's very well known in the UK. no mention of it here. and no article of it's own. why?

palm facing
I believe the convention is that the two finger sign with palm facing the person is the victory sign http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/V_sign, whereas if the palm faces the person making the gesture it is the obscene gesture. That's how it used to be anyway, although it may have become more muddled in recent years.


 * Because, the back of the hand, two finger "salute" is a UK distinctive "salute", whereas the MIDDLE FINGER RAISED is nearly universal04:18, 8 February 2012 (UTC) — Preceding unsigned comment added by Wzrd1 (talk • contribs)


 * Only universal because of Hollywood I suspect. I don't remember it in the UK before about 1980. Alansplodge (talk) 00:53, 14 July 2012 (UTC)

Flipping or flicking?
I've heard the terms "flipping someone off" and "flicking someone off" so does anyone know which one is correct? 68.54.174.43 17:15, 30 June 2007 (UTC)

Flip the bird, flick the V's was always my understanding - but then I'm a Brit so it's probably different wherever you are. After all, if you can't rely on people getting lose/loose correct on mainstream news media - getting 'flick/flip' right isn't going to happen.--Koncorde 00:09, 11 August 2007 (UTC)

I dont think anyone uses the phrase "the Bird" in the UK. I dont think anyone would know what that phrase meant. It is more common here just to say that someone "stuck their finger up" etc

Both, it's like Cussing or Cursing. In the South we say Cussing, northerners say Cursing (US), though I'm not sure if flipping or flicking is demographic but here we say "He flicked me off" —Preceding unsigned comment added by 76.123.97.55 (talk) 20:47, 16 March 2010 (UTC)

Seems to be generational. At some point a whole generation misheard flipping as flicking and a modern-day usage crisis was born P2.71828182 (talk) 22:07, 2 March 2011 (UTC)

Mad magazine
added mad magazine refrence, might put up picture of it tommorow Wikimindless 04:50, 29 July 2007 (UTC)

'Pluck yew'?
Is the reference to the whole 'pluck yew' thing verified? I don't think it's true. It shows up in a lot of spam emails, as stated before. It's introduced in the beginning of the article, but worded more 'scholarly.' Will someone verify this? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 68.161.95.245 (talk) 23:21, 3 October 2007 (UTC)

Concert C
Huh? I can't find a reference for this term. Seems pretty obscure. It's not even in the urban dictionary. I'm considering removing. -Verdatum (talk) 03:15, 22 November 2007 (UTC)

The body part which the French proposed to cut off of the English after defeating them was, of course, the middle finger, without which it is impossible to draw the renowned English longbow. This famous weapon was made of the native English yew tree, and so the act of drawing the longbow was known as "plucking yew". Thus, when the victorious English waved their middle fingers at the defeated French, they said, "See, we can still pluck yew! PLUCK YEW!"

Over the years some 'folk etymologies' have grown up around this symbolic gesture. Since "pluck yew" is rather difficult to say (like "pleasant mother pheasant plucker", which is who you had to go to for the feathers used on the arrows), the difficult consonant cluster at the beginning has gradually changed to a labiodental fricative 'f', and thus the words often used in conjunction with the one-finger-salute are mistakenly thought to have something to do with an intimate encounter. It is also because of the pheasant feathers on the arrows that the symbolic gesture is known as "giving the bird". —Preceding unsigned comment added by 98.236.67.60 (talk) 18:32, 23 June 2010 (UTC)


 * As the "Folk" of the time were NOT musicians, the point is obviously an urban myth. OR the populace were largely musicians. Considering the conditions of the time, I strongly suggest otherwise, some surviving thing going on at the time...Wzrd1 (talk) 04:22, 8 February 2012 (UTC)

Viewer of photo should receive finger
I thought there was tremendous humor value in having the finger face the viewer of the photo. Seeing the giver's view is nothing special, I can see that anytime. In fact, I'm looking at it right now, imagining you reading this. JimmycurN 08:45, 1 December 2007 (UTC)


 * Maybe the photographer/subject didn't have a mirror handy. :-) When we get tired of this photo, I suggest reverting to this [[Media:The gesture02.jpg|beautifully sullen one]] that ran earlier this year. --CliffC 15:17, 1 December 2007 (UTC)

Obcene gesture in Die Nibelungen
Hi. There is a funny moment in the Fritz Lang's Die Nibelungen, where Alberich (dying) shows to Siegfried your middle finger as well you can see here.

It possible to be a accidentally action. But would be interesting if we serch about this and will be publish something in this article. What you think? Sorry my bad English. -- 201.22.206.20 (talk) 16:25, 2 January 2008 (UTC)


 * Just when I'm about to take this article off my watch list as a waste of time, something interesting shows up!  --CliffC (talk) 17:18, 2 January 2008 (UTC)

"On February 2, 2007, Mirek Topolánek, prime minister of the Czech republic, gave the finger to left-wing deputies in the Czech parliament [10] and later explained the gesture to the media and the Chamber of Deputies of the Czech Republic as a friendly gesture towards Miroslav Kalousek, one of his cabinet ministers. "

In Czech, isn't Mirek the short version of Miroslav? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 216.218.41.190 (talk) 17:50, 2 January 2008 (UTC)

reverting deletion of picture
I've reverted the deletion of the picture. I will agree with some others that the picture isn't great, and I invite others to choose a more expressive one. But it's clear to me that (1) having a picture of the gesture helps the article; and (2) a solid majority of participants on these pages agree. Deletion of the picture without replacing it with a better one should therefore depend on achieving consensus for such an action.

The reason given for the deletion simply referred to the picture as being of an offensive gesture. Um... that's what the article is about. It is entirely appropriate to include a picture of a gesture in the article about it, regardless that that might offend somebody. atakdoug (talk) 11:36, 8 January 2008 (UTC)

The Canadian Turn Signal
Is this really a common term? I have only found one reference by Googling that doesn't seem to be a copy of the list given in the article. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 216.16.236.30 (talk) 15:27, 9 January 2008 (UTC)

Incorrect Information about origion?
That makes absolutely no sense. A thumb translates to the middle finger? I think it actually did come from the hundreds year war. English Longbow men (the scourge of the French) used their middle finger when firing an arrow. The French started going around to villages and cutting off the Longbow mens fingers. So after battles the English would hold up their middle finger showing the French that they still had their fingers. It is also called the English Sign of Defiance. Why is this not on the page, I am 99.9% sure that the aforementioned story is true. Superbowlbound (talk) 21:45, 27 January 2008 (UTC)


 * That story always sounds good, but see http://www.snopes.com/language/apocryph/pluckyew.asp --CliffC (talk) 23:06, 27 January 2008 (UTC)


 * Well obviously the pluck yew part is made up, but I don't think the article debunked the whole thing. They didn't do very good research... Superbowlbound (talk) 00:19, 28 January 2008 (UTC)

Hundred Years War: 25 October 1415, the Battle of Agincourt/Azincourt.

As you know, at that time the British appeared on the battlefield armed whit the inedited longbow, the arc length. Contraption which the French had not yet experienced the destructive power: considering it a simple bow and sure they defeats the enemy, they showed the middle finger to english (from here 'the finger'), while whit other hand made a sign to cut it. In essence, they mocked the English, promising them, once taken prisoner after the inevitable victory, cutting off his finger so as to prevent, in future, to pull the bow. Some French, more swaggering than others, went further, expressing by gestures to the Henry V 's archers intention to cut them even arm. And from here the "umbrella act" (Bras d'honneur) .The great weapon of the English army were archers.They used the index finger and middle finger every time they shoot an arrow.It was for this that every archer captured by the French were amputated two fingers.From this episode comes the gesture of the middle finger and index finger raised with the back of his hand.This was in fact the act ,that the English archers not captured by the French,showed to enemies before every battle,the classic "V" still used in a gesture of victory.--87.16.2.28 (talk) 14:00, 3 March 2010 (UTC)


 * Yet, utterly unreflected by history. Only an urban legend that continues, unabated unto the upteenth generation.Wzrd1 (talk) 04:32, 8 February 2012 (UTC)

High sign?
I was looking for a definition of "High sign" - a phrase I heard in a song - and got directed straight here. But apart from the redirect there is no mention of that phrase in the article. Can anyone elucidate? What sense of the word "high" is meant? (intoxicated / elevated / ?) Rachel Pearce (talk) 23:58, 14 February 2008 (UTC)
 * http://www.thefreedictionary.com/high+sign, but I've always assumed that the "Hi sign" referred to someone raising their hand to say "hi!". 63.87.189.17 (talk) 16:23, 25 July 2009 (UTC)
 * I was looking for the old TV/Film reference when one character would say something akin to, "I'm going to check ahead, you stay here until I give you the high sign." or "If you need me to save you (from the unwanted conversation), just give me the high sign." In comedies, this would sometimes lead to the other character asking himself, "What's the high sign?" after the first walks away.  —Preceding unsigned comment added by 66.210.216.19 (talk) 21:45, 11 June 2010 (UTC)

Drew Carey's picture
Why does an image of Drew Carey flipping the bird appear on this page? It adds nothing to this particular article, and there are already plenty of examples of people flipping the bird in this article already. Additionally, the existence of this picture is causing a minor havoc on Drew Carey's own article, as it is consistently replacing a good, non-offensive image on the page due to a user's continuing vandalism. I would recommend the picture removed from this page, and will nominate the image for deletion. --Mr. Brown (talk) 05:41, 22 February 2008 (UTC)
 * You'd have to discuss the image's deletion on the image page or with the uploader. The image being on this page has nothing with whether or not the image belongs on Drew Carey's page.  нмŵוτн τ  17:56, 22 February 2008 (UTC)
 * I am aware of that. I am asking why is it appearing on THIS page? Is there any particular reason for it? Please read the question next time. --Mr. Brown (talk) 02:32, 23 February 2008 (UTC)

OK, you are ABSOLUTELY RIGHT! From now on, Wiki will NOT show FINGERS, as you could object to that to which is objected to by SOME. Indeed, Wiki will from this point forward delete ANYTHING objectionable, making it the daily news. Thanks for nothing! Shall we now destroy the REST of human knowledge?Wzrd1 (talk) 04:37, 8 February 2012 (UTC)

Index Finger Gesture in Sri Lanka
User Trueslpatriot recently removed my comments regarding the index finger gesture in Sri Lanka saying that index finger gesture means "out" in cricket, and has no other meaning in Sri Lanka. As a Sri Lankan, I personally have used this gesture :) and can talk authoritativey about it. The arm with index finger is held lower, and back of the palm pointing outward (where as cricket umpires hold the the back of the plam inwards, usually). However, I will not add it again, till I have a good piture and a referance source. Ritigala Jayasena (talk) 02:43, 26 February 2008 (UTC)

Long Intro
i think alot of stuff could be moved from the intro to "The Finger in different cultures" or something. 88.73.221.210 (talk) 16:44, 30 April 2008 (UTC) aep

The Kid doing the finger
(hey, I know this is not about the article realy, so if I'm breaking a rule and the post is deleted, it's OK.) I'm looking for a picture in black and white of The Kid (performed by Jackie Coogan in Charles Chaplin's film) extending his middle finger. My uncle had a portrait of it in his bedroom when he was younger, but lost it, and I want it in order to print it. Please, if you've got it, let me know how to get it, posting in my talk or here. Thanks, --Andresf91 (talk) 04:52, 29 May 2008 (UTC)

http://www.weirdthings.org.uk/wp-content/uploads/2008/04/football-hooligan-training-camp-for-kids.jpg —Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.12.67.214 (talk) 21:18, 25 January 2009 (UTC)

"See Figure 1" folklore text
I think it deserves to be mentioned in the article. sendmoreinfo (talk) 21:01, 10 November 2008 (UTC)

Sarah Yoder?
Who is Sarah Yoder? Is the comment about her relevant? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 90.130.14.21 (talk) 04:44, 2 February 2009 (UTC)

Move

 * The following discussion is an archived discussion of the proposal. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. No further edits should be made to this section. 

The result of the proposal was consensus not to move the page, per the discussion below. Dekimasu よ! 15:11, 18 August 2009 (UTC)

Finger (gesture) → Up yours (gesture) &mdash; I propose to move this article to Up yours (gesture). Aldough 'the finger' is more euphemistical, its not very clear. Fuck you (gesture) then again raises connotations to human propogation. If someone finds something else, then change, but make it more logical and clear than 'the finger' — Preceding unsigned comment added by 91.182.172.239 (talk) 12:45, 12 August 2009 (UTC)
 * Oppose. While "the finger" may seem euphemistic in terms what is prescribes for the target, in fact what is being prescribed is figurative, not literal (i.e., it is normally not an actual request for the target to physically insert anything anywhere).  Furthermore, "the finger" is most common term for the gesture—"up yours" is uncited in the article.  "Fuck you (gesture)" is ambiguous—it could refer to a number of different gestures depending on the country or culture.  —   AjaxSmack   17:22, 12 August 2009 (UTC)
 * Oppose. "The finger" is, as AjaxSmack points out, commonly used. In addition, its use is supported by multiple sources, as required by WP:RS and WP:V. Digitus impudicus is also supported, and that name is currently a redirect to this page. Web searches for "the finger" actually return more hits than either digitus impudicus or finger gesture, but since the former is ambiguous (for example, some of those web search results are for the index finger gesture, etc.), the current name seems best. Cnilep (talk) 17:41, 12 August 2009 (UTC)
 * Oppose, for the reasons shown above. Also worth noting that "up yours" is itself a euphemism.  81.110.104.91 (talk) 23:06, 15 August 2009 (UTC)
 * Oppose IAW WP:COMMONNAME. This request seems like a candidate for WP:SNOW closure, at the moment. — V = I * R  (talk) 00:58, 16 August 2009 (UTC)
 * The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the proposal. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

Reference link dead
Reference 11: the page to which it linked is no longer available. As it was a reference, not just a link, would someone like to sort it out... or just delete? —Preceding unsigned comment added by Tony in Devon (talk • contribs) 14:22, 9 November 2009 (UTC)

Double finger
I'm a little surprised to realize that i don't know how else to describe the act of giving someone the finger with both hands simultaneously (which Letterman has been showing fuzzed-out footage of, the last few nights). Of course it's not our job to invent a term, but i'm a little surprised by the idea that there may be no established one. Anyone? --Jerzy•t 08:56, 20 November 2009 (UTC)

wiki bot reverts me
obviously the phrases should be "fuck you and "up yours" in the introductory part, but the anti profanity bot reverts my edits.134.109.89.1 (talk) 08:15, 10 December 2009 (UTC)
 * Profanity --195.113.8.138 (talk) 12:18, 10 December 2009 (UTC)

Does not mean much in the UK, not used
In the UK it is seen as being only an American thing. People know what it means due to watching a lot of American tv and films, but it is not used. If someone did use it, the message recieved would be that the person using it was an ignoramous (or child) pathetically imitating what they'd seen on American tv, rather than being offended by it. The UK equivalent would be the two-fingers sign. 89.243.197.22 (talk) 18:37, 21 February 2010 (UTC)

So its wrong to claim, as the article did before I changed it, that it's used in 'Western culture'. 89.243.197.22 (talk) 18:43, 21 February 2010 (UTC)


 * May be it was wrong - but certainly is nonsensical to shape the information in the article after your own British-biased POV! Certainly presence of the gesture in American media make it a bit difficult to distinguish between original national use of the gesture and American media depiction influenced use, but as for the Czech (it seems that you can't even write it down without mistake) usage, it was gesture well known in Czech society, though not suitable in most social situations, prior to widespread knowledge of American media. Moreover, the gesture was known in Ancient Rome, which influenced (with the exception of a few backward islands) the Western culture as a whole. --78.128.177.172 (talk) 22:12, 21 February 2010 (UTC)


 * I would disagree strongly with 89.243. The finger may well be more common among the younger (more Americanized) generations than the older, but it is certainly not limited to children. Also, even if the person on the receiving end disdained the Americanness of the gesture, I doubt that would stop them being offended. Hadrian89 (talk) 00:09, 22 February 2010 (UTC)


 * 89, I have undone your edits. Please view this link Icons of the UK, which explains that the 'single middle finger is now well on its way to replacing the traditional English V-sign'. Hadrian89 (talk) 00:19, 22 February 2010 (UTC)


 * Seriously 89.243.197.22, what planet are you on? This is the second time that you've mentionned it and it's just plain wrong, it's used as frequently as the offensive 'V' sign.  Things like this make me wonder if people are just being trolls out of sheer boredom and having nothing better to do. groovygower (talk) 00:28, 8 August 2012 (UTC)

Different Styles
Why no mention of different styles? There is the square handed one, the more balled up fist one, the winding one seen in spaceballs, the false one where another finger is used then revealed to not really be flicking someone off. Many different variations of it. Would be like an article about sex that only mentions it being performed missionary. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 76.123.97.55 (talk) 20:52, 16 March 2010 (UTC)

English speaking countries?
Which english speaking countries is the v sign apparently performed? I know that at least in australia the finger is much more dominant, although people would understand what the v is supposed to be it is very uncommon.

Battle of Agincourt
Is or is not the Battle of Agincourt one of (but not THE) sources from which "The bird" originates from? See related post at: Talk:Battle_of_Agincourt. My understanding is that the French king had a bounty/reward for the middle finger of English Longbowmen, and after the battle, these same archers gestured towards their defeated oponents with their upraised middle fingers. Truth or not? LP-mn (talk) 23:01, 28 December 2010 (UTC)
 * Ira Robbins's paper cited in the article calls it a "colorful legend", and so do all other serious sources I happened to have a look at. So, it appears to be a funny but untrue origin story. Goochelaar  (talk) 10:25, 29 December 2010 (UTC)

Recommend title change to "Middle Finger (gesture)"
Much discussion about the inclusion in (or exclusion from) this article of various related gestures such as the British two-fingered salute is due to the article's unnecessarily vague title.

The upraised middle finger is but one of many obscene hand gestures. It is recognized in some cultures and not in others.

There are many other single-finger gestures that might fall under the rubric of the current title, all with different meanings (e.g., the extended index finger is near-universally understood as a directional indication and not generally considered obscene, but it is just as much a "Finger (gesture)" as any other).

If this article is specifically about the obscene middle-finger gesture -- and I think it is -- then its title should be changed to something narrower, such as "Middle Finger (gesture)." This is the change I recommend.

If the title is to remain as-is, then there are two other (less desirable) logical options:


 * If the article encompasses all single-finger gestures, then it should be expanded to include the directional index finger, the thumbs-up, the genteel extended pinkie, and so on.


 * On the other hand, if the article is meant to encompass all the hand gestures which share the same disrespectful/obscene meaning as the raised middle finger, then it should be expanded considerably to include not only the British two-fingered salute, but also some Italian gestures and a great many others. Since there already appears to be an existing article on this topic, this would not be optimal. Rangergordon (talk) 06:08, 16 January 2011 (UTC)

The middle finger gesture as a help me/us signal
Would it be OK to include in the article that in Finland the middle finger gesture is often used at sea by a person/persons as a distress signal to other nearby boats if they are having boat trouble? On main land its however seen as offensive. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 91.150.16.201 (talk) 10:28, 4 August 2011 (UTC)

yes - flipper1 — Preceding unsigned comment added by 69.87.144.216 (talk) 21:39, 21 November 2011 (UTC)

Hmm... I gotta say it's a no! - GLaDOS996