Talk:The talk (racism in the United States)/Archive 1

Ambiguity of article title
To most Americans, "the talk" is conflated to the birds and the bees, another type of parental "talk". Looking up "the talk parenting" on Google will lead to results about the sex talk, except for the result at the very top of the page — this article. For clarification, I don't think either article should have the title of "The talk (parenting)"; it's too generic. I reckon those using the search function here on Wikipedia will also have trouble determining what this article is about before clicking on it. It's a minor thing, but I figure those that are unaware of the racism talk will assume they're going to an article about the sex talk, and those looking for the racism talk may think it's about the sex talk. Although the hatnote at the top of this article generally fixes the issue, it only works after opening the page.

TL;DR I don't think the pagename is in-line with WP:PRECISE. Thoughts? --ElKabong888 (talk) 13:48, 21 June 2020 (UTC)


 * From an Irish perspective, I agree completely that “The Talk (parenting” 100% brings to mind a discussion on sex education. Not to say that this isn’t also colloquially referred to as ‘the talk’ but it’s certainly not the most notable of that name, particularly from an international standpoint. I think it should be changed. Xx78900 (talk) 14:28, 21 June 2020 (UTC)
 * Fully agreed. Without context, "The talk" in parental context means sex ed, and has for years and years. This will have to find a different title. I was very surprised to see it on the main page under this title. Not to say it isn't a very worthy article though. Fgf10 (talk) 15:16, 21 June 2020 (UTC)
 * What's your source for that claim? ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 14:49, 28 June 2020 (UTC)


 * Yeah, I was trying to figure out something better. Maybe The talk (racism)? Or The talk (racism in the US)? —valereee (talk) 15:38, 21 June 2020 (UTC)
 * The latter could be suitable. I'd support renaming to that. --ElKabong888 (talk) 15:50, 22 June 2020 (UTC)

I agree that this title is ambiguous and misleading - I assumed it would be about the 'birds and the bees' subject as well. Perhaps something like The talk (African-Americans) would suit? Robofish (talk) 20:01, 21 June 2020 (UTC)
 * , I would assume African-American parents also have a sex talk. —valereee (talk) 20:25, 21 June 2020 (UTC)

"The talk (parenting)" listed at Redirects for discussion
A discussion is taking place to address the redirect The talk (parenting). The discussion will occur at Redirects for discussion/Log/2020 June 24 until a consensus is reached, and readers of this page are welcome to contribute to the discussion. © Tb hotch ™ (en-3). 15:05, 24 June 2020 (UTC)

Requested move 29 June 2020

 * The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion. 

The result of the move request was: there is no consensus to move to The talk (black parenting), The talk (African-American parenting), The talk (Black American parenting), The talk (African-American rite of passage) or any similar title. In discussions where no consensus is obtained we default to the status quo ante, which in this case is the current title chosen by the article's creator and primary contributor,. Borrowing a term from Wikipedia categorization, when disambiguation is necessary it should be by the primary defining characteristic of the topic. In this case that is the topic of "the talk", not who is giving the talk. There are several "talks" that parents might give their children about "rites of passage" besides this one – The talk (sex) (birth control!), safe driving (after obtaining their license; don't let your friends in the back seat distract your attention from the road!), moving out to live independently (budget your money so you don't fall behind on rent!), etc. Another reason this disambiguation is problematic: It’s time for white parents to take over a grim ritual that Black families have performed for decades. Unfortunately this discussion bogged down on debating the best term for the race of the parents. The "correct" term has evolved over time; "colored" and "negro" were once in fashion, but have been reduced to acronyms today. We can avoid that debate here by taking all of these variants off the table as I don't see a path to forming a consensus around any of them.

There is a general sense that the current title is not ideal. The talk (racism) had some support, but also opposition as "potentially offensive". A point was also made that The talk (racism) could be confused to interpret "the talk" as a form of racism. I don't think "in the US" is a necessary defining characteristic as I'm skeptical that the issue is entirely limited to the United States. Though not suggested in this discussion, The talk (race) is a more neutral, concise title which could be considered. Nobody would think that "the talk" is a race, but perhaps natural disambiguation feels more natural: "The talk" about race. If that's insufficiently precise, then consider The talk (race and policing), The talk (race and law enforcement), "The talk" about race and policing or "The talk" about race and law enforcement. This titling would be consistent with titles such as Race and crime and Race and crime in the United States. - wbm1058 (talk) 18:09, 28 July 2020 (UTC)

The talk (racism in the US) → The talk (black parenting) – The abbreviation "US" is generally proscribed in titles, especially when not being used as a noun adjunct. I'm fine with The talk (racism in the United States) as well, but my proposed option is more concise. King of ♥ ♦ ♣ ♠ 20:38, 29 June 2020 (UTC) —Relisting. OhKayeSierra (talk) 22:55, 17 July 2020 (UTC)
 * Support. Including "US" in the title doesn't really clarify much since we're distinguishing from The birds and the bees, not a similar kind of talk that occurs in other countries. -- Tavix ( talk ) 21:05, 29 June 2020 (UTC)


 * Support more accurate than the existing title. Capitals00 (talk) 17:04, 2 July 2020 (UTC)
 * Oppose (black parenting) is imprecise. What does it even mean? For one thing, we can assume black parents also do a (sex) talk. And saying (black parenting) obscures what it's really about: racism in the US. We could just say (racism) if that's a talk parents in other countries need to do also. Also no objection to {racism in the United States). —valereee (talk) 17:17, 2 July 2020 (UTC)
 * Yes, black parents talk about the birds and the bees, but is being black a distinguishing feature of the sex talk? (black parenting) can only be a plausible title for a topic that has something to do with blackness specifically. As is, all the proposed terms we're discussing are sufficiently precise to identify exactly one encyclopedic topic, so the question is which one is more recognizable to an unfamiliar reader. (black parenting) clearly indicates that the subject is a talk which is given in the course of black parenting. (racism) or (racism in the United States) could mean anything; a reader from another country might think it's a racist diatribe that white police officers give black suspects, or verbal techniques used by black people to defend themselves against racists. -- King of ♥ ♦ ♣<b style="color:black"> ♠</b> 17:53, 2 July 2020 (UTC)
 * , I dunno, that sounds a little farfetched to me. Would anyone object to my posting for comments at the wikiproject black lives matter? I don't want to look like canvassing. If someone else wants to post there instead to make sure it's neutral, fine by me. —valereee (talk) 19:06, 2 July 2020 (UTC)
 * I don't object to that, but it is important to remind people of WP:CRITERIA, which those who don't hang out around RMs all the time might not be familiar with. -- <b style="color:red">King of ♥</b><b style="color:red"> ♦</b><b style="color:black"> ♣</b><b style="color:black"> ♠</b> 19:10, 2 July 2020 (UTC)
 * I guess my main objection with (racism) is that "The talk" is a form of black parenting, but it is not a form of racism. In generally, parenthetical disambiguators should be hypernyms of the term being disambiguated whenever possible. There are exceptions, e.g. proper nouns like Sierra Nevada (Spain) or Piano sonatas (Beethoven), or fields of study like Set (mathematics), but "racism" (despite being an abstract noun) just doesn't feel to me like the same category of word as sociology, psychology, or physics. For example, the lead sentence of an article could start off with "In mathematics", but it would never start with "In racism". -- <b style="color:red">King of ♥</b><b style="color:red"> ♦</b><b style="color:black"> ♣</b><b style="color:black"> ♠</b> 20:47, 2 July 2020 (UTC)
 * , would The talk (about racism) work better for you? —valereee (talk) 11:29, 3 July 2020 (UTC)
 * No, parenthetical disambiguators typically should be nouns, not prepositional phrases. Out of all the alternatives suggested, (racism in the United States) i.e. simply correcting the non-compliant abbreviation is still the most acceptable option to me. -- <b style="color:red">King of ♥</b><b style="color:red"> ♦</b><b style="color:black"> ♣</b><b style="color:black"> ♠</b> 15:39, 3 July 2020 (UTC)
 * Oppose adding "black parenting". Is this something that happens in Nigeria, Jamaica? If not, it's not about "black parenting" in general. I prefer "The talk (United States)", "The talk (racism)", or "The talk (racism in the United States)". SarahSV (talk) 04:27, 3 July 2020 (UTC)
 * Oppose The proposed title is not proper. The idea of "the talk" is not tied to any particular race; it's tied to the oppression of minority racial groups. Anti-black racism is not a serious issue in majority black countries. The current title also allows for expansion on "the talk" given by other American minorities. --ElKabong888 (talk) 08:33, 3 July 2020 (UTC)
 * Oppose as the article and the specific phenomenon described within is unique to the United States, and the word "black" implies it is something black people globally go through. Also, according to the lede itself, "the talk" doesn't even refer to anti-blackness specifically, but rather general racism in the United States. I would, however, support capitalizing the word "Talk", as many sources have done so. Nanophosis (talk) 22:28, 4 July 2020 (UTC)
 * Move to The talk (African-American parenting). Rreagan007 (talk) 20:27, 5 July 2020 (UTC)
 * I support this one as well. -- <b style="color:red">King of ♥</b><b style="color:red"> ♦</b><b style="color:black"> ♣</b><b style="color:black"> ♠</b> 21:32, 5 July 2020 (UTC)
 * I also support this. SarahSV (talk) 21:46, 5 July 2020 (UTC)
 * I actually don't, as it's not only people of African-American descent who are black, and I find this one obscures what the talk is about. It's not about being an African-American. It's about racism. But I get that this is a good-faith option. —valereee (talk) 14:04, 7 July 2020 (UTC)
 * This academic source discusses it as an "essential rite of passage in African American homes": Whitaker, Tracy R. and Snell, Cudore L. (2028). "Parenting while powerless: Consequences of the talk". In Sharon E. Moore, A. Christson Adedoyin, Michael A. Robinson (eds.). Police and the Unarmed Black Male Crisis. Abingdon and New York: Routledge. SarahSV (talk) 17:34, 7 July 2020 (UTC)
 * , yeah, I get that it's in African American homes, but that's a subset of black homes in which it's also done but that aren't African American. They might identify as Jamaican or Haitian or black latinx or whatever. Again, I don't see this as a bad faith argument. ETA: I sincerely hope this doesn't feel like bludgeoning. I don't intend it that way, so if it feels that way, I'll shut up. —valereee (talk) 19:10, 7 July 2020 (UTC)
 * , don't worry, it's definitely not bludgeoning. You're explaining and offering more information, and that's a good thing, so thank you. SarahSV (talk) 19:20, 7 July 2020 (UTC)
 * The scope of the article is limited to the United States, and "African American" and "Black American" are interchangeable terms. See our article on African Americans. Rreagan007 (talk) 07:46, 10 July 2020 (UTC)
 * Would The talk (parental racial socialization) be an option? —valereee (talk) 19:34, 7 July 2020 (UTC)
 * Unfortunately, that seems overly verbose and not as effective at conveying what the topic is about. -- <b style="color:red">King of ♥</b><b style="color:red"> ♦</b><b style="color:black"> ♣</b><b style="color:black"> ♠</b> 00:08, 8 July 2020 (UTC)
 * I agree that's a bit verbose; what about simply The talk (racial socialization)? The "parenting" component is shared with other meanings of "the talk," and therefore not needed for disambiguation. -Pete Forsyth (talk) 19:26, 10 July 2020 (UTC)
 * I actually like having something "parenting"-related as it gives much better context. The word "socialization" is abstract mumbo-jumbo. -- <b style="color:red">King of ♥</b><b style="color:red"> ♦</b><b style="color:black"> ♣</b><b style="color:black"> ♠</b> 19:29, 10 July 2020 (UTC)
 * , fwiw, it's a sociological term. —valereee (talk) 23:18, 12 July 2020 (UTC)
 * One of the naming criteria is that the title must be WP:RECOGNIZABLE to non-experts, and I think something containing "socialization" fails on that metric. -- <b style="color:red">King of ♥</b><b style="color:red"> ♦</b><b style="color:black"> ♣</b><b style="color:black"> ♠</b> 23:21, 12 July 2020 (UTC)
 * , and I don't disagree with that. I just didn't make it up. :) —valereee (talk) 23:32, 12 July 2020 (UTC)
 * I'm no sociology nerd, but I have no trouble grasping what it means. I think in the absence of a clear better alternative, this is the one that best fits naming guidelines, and best helps the reader understand what the article's about. -Pete Forsyth (talk) 04:11, 13 July 2020 (UTC)


 * Also support the suggestion of moving to The talk (African-American parenting) as a good alternative. Capitals00 (talk) 06:27, 13 July 2020 (UTC)


 * I also support the suggestion of moving to The talk (African-American parenting). Inarguably we are addressing in this article the "African-American" family. The article says "The talk is a colloquial expression for a conversation some black parents in the United States..." I've bolded the word "some" to distinguish it from a word such as all. Bus stop (talk) 13:26, 13 July 2020 (UTC)


 * If this "the talk" happens only or mostly in the USA rather than elsewhere in the world, then "US" or "United States" should be in the name. Anthony Appleyard (talk) 04:28, 18 July 2020 (UTC)
 * Oppose The talk (black parenting), weak support for The talk (African-American parenting), strongly support The talk (racism). "Black" is far too broad and coveres a lot of people whom likely do not have this phenomenon, for example those in black majority countries, while I'm sure tons of other miorities in America (and other places) also have this kind of talk.★Trekker (talk) 16:05, 22 July 2020 (UTC)
 * Support moving to The talk (racism). This isn't a US-exclusive thing, but it may not also be universal for black parents. Besides, I expect that white families will have a variation on this talk in the future. Bowler the Carmine (talk) 09:15, 24 July 2020 (UTC)
 * Comment to the closer: The reason the move was reversed was a discussion at User_talk:Sam-2727 Sam-2727 (talk) 19:03, 27 July 2020 (UTC)
 * Support in another way I think that the name "racism" should be removed from the article name, as it could be potentially offensive. Wikipedia is supposed to be a all-neutral encyclopedia. I'm not caring about the abbreviation "US" unlike the King of Hearts. I think it should be renamed to "The talk (African-American rite of passage)" or maybe "The talk (African-American rite-of-passage)", depending on if you like the hyphens or not. I think only the United States continues to have problems between the African-American population and the white population, so "African-American" is appropriate. It isn't like what valeree said in one of valeree's posts. This is obviously distinguished from the birds and bees talk. Friend505 (talk) 22:23, 27 July 2020 (UTC)
 * Suggestion How about The talk (Black American parenting)? I see Black American used more often than it used to be, and for reasons stated by above, I don't think African-American is as inclusive. Specifically, it seems "Black American" is preferred by some who don't identify as "African" or "African-American" necessarily (sources: ). This Wiki article doesn't even use the term "African-American" in the body, but it does use "black". - Whisperjanes (talk) 09:19, 28 July 2020 (UTC)


 * The discussion above is closed. <b style="color: #FF0000;">Please do not modify it.</b> Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

title
Thanks,, good close. , I still do agree with you that the current title is problematic. I propose that for now we move it to The talk (racism in the United States) to solve the problem of having US not spelled out per policy, and maybe we can revisit another discussion in a few months? —valereee (talk) 18:45, 28 July 2020 (UTC)
 * Sure, sounds good. -- <b style="color:red">King of ♥</b><b style="color:red"> ♦</b><b style="color:black"> ♣</b><b style="color:black"> ♠</b> 18:51, 28 July 2020 (UTC)


 * I have already moved the page to "The talk (African-American rite of passage)". If anyone has any questions for me, please contact me at my talk page. As the statement on my talk page says, I am busy in real life and may not be able to immediately respond to your messages. Thank you. Friend505 (talk) 12:16, 29 July 2020 (UTC)


 * I am sorry that I have not reached a consensus with everyone else about the page move. It seems like no one ever supported my idea, since the previous discussion was already archived and no one said that they liked my opinion. You may revert my page move if you would like, but please contact me after doing that. Thank you. As the statement on my user page states, I am only active on Wikipedia during specific times usually. If you would like a speedy response, please contact me at those times. Friend505 (talk) 12:18, 29 July 2020 (UTC)

Admin note: I have move-protected the page for a month to allow you all to work this out without any more move warring. If you reach consensus before that time, any administrator can unprotect the page or simply do the move for you. -- MelanieN (talk) 00:44, 30 July 2020 (UTC)

Hey, valeree, the current name is already "The talk (racism in the United States)". Friend505 (talk) 12:15, 1 August 2020 (UTC)
 * , four days ago it wasn't. —valereee (talk) 17:48, 1 August 2020 (UTC)
 * Oh, really, thanks, Valeree. Well, are you satisfied with the current name? Friend505 (talk) 19:35, 1 August 2020 (UTC)
 * , I think it's not perfect. I believe we should be saying racism, as that's the primary issue. I believe we should be saying Black, not African-American, if we're going to mention race/ethnicity. I think parenting or rite of passage are not precise enough unless we include racism. Parental racial socialization works for me, but I get KoH's objection. I'm hoping we can figure out something better, but the current title doesn't bother me, and if that's what it ends up at, I can live with it. —valereee (talk) 20:21, 1 August 2020 (UTC)
 * Valereee, who's KoH? I don't know who he/she is, since you didn't leave a user link. Did you probably have a private email discussion with this user, since I can't find this user in either this talk page or your talk page. I would like this user to be involved in this discussion, since the more people that participate in this discussion, the faster we can reach a consensus. Thank you. Friend505 (talk) 11:10, 3 August 2020 (UTC)
 * , KoH is King of Hearts, who made the second post in this section. —valereee (talk) 12:52, 4 August 2020 (UTC)


 * Hey, valereee, how about "The talk (African-American racism)"? (Also, please check the post above this one.) If you want "racism" in the title, I'm not completely objecting it, except that if you include that word in the title, the discussion will need more consensus. Anyways, I don't like the name "The talk (African-American parenting)". I just don't think that it should be part of parenting. I mean, yeah, it is a part of the parenting process for African-American parents, but, you know, the real purpose for this is to help their children stay safe in encounters with the American white population. Is this a good idea? Friend505 (talk) 11:10, 3 August 2020 (UTC)
 * "African-American racism" won't work because 1. it sounds like it could be about racism by African-Americans rather than racism they face and 2. It's not just African-Americans but other Black families that have this talk. Please let's shut this discussion down and revisit later, as was suggested in the original post and agreed to by the original page move proposer. The article is fine where it is for now. —valereee (talk) 12:55, 4 August 2020 (UTC)
 * OK, good idea, Valereee. I understand; you probably mean that maybe Indigenous populations (Native Americans) also have this talk, right? Thanks for your help. Friend505 (talk) 13:46, 4 August 2020 (UTC)
 * Other people of color in the US may also have similar talks, but what I meant was that not all Black people in the US identify as African-American. Some identify as Haitian or Jamaican or simply as Black. This was all discussed in the original now-closed discussion. —valereee (talk) 13:52, 4 August 2020 (UTC)

UK
Turns out it happens in the UK, also, but maybe isn't as broadly known or publicly discussed as here in the US. —valereee (talk) 12:24, 5 August 2020 (UTC)

Useful source
"The talk" was mentioned during the last 2020 presidential debate. Washington Post article. ThatMontrealIP (talk) 18:14, 23 October 2020 (UTC)
 * , I was thinking about that last night, too. I'm trying to figure out where it fits in. The 'Depictions' section doesn't seem quite right. What do you think? History, maybe? —valereee (talk) 19:02, 23 October 2020 (UTC)

"some" Black parents
Not sure it's accurate to say "some" rather than many or most? I think we need multiple RS to limit this to some. —valereee (talk) 21:17, 28 May 2021 (UTC)