Talk:Theatre Development Fund

Edit request from Theatre Development Fund (TDF)
TDF presents its first audio-described Broadway performance, Grease, in 2008 - to be placed in the TDF Accessibility Program (TAP) section.
 * Specific text to be added or removed:

TDF and The Broadway League launch TheatreAccessNYC, a website highlighting accessibility information for Broadway shows - to be placed in the TDF Accessibility Program (TAP) section.

In December 2017, TDF launches its Veterans Theatregoing Program, which brings NYC-area veterans to Broadway shows at no cost to participants - to be placed in the TDF Accessibility Program (TAP) section.

In June 2023, TDF celebrates the 50th anniversary of the TKTS Discount Booth in Times Square - to be placed in Ticketing Programs, TKTS Discount Booths.

After a six-month trial run, TDF's TKTS Discount Booth in Lincoln Center becomes permanent in 2017.- to be placed in Ticketing Programs, TKTS Discount Booths (though I see this citation is already being used).

In 2011, TDF launches its Autism Theatre Initiative, which presents sensory-friendly performances of Broadway shows. The program was later renamed Autism Friendly Performances - to be placed in the TDF Accessibility Program (TAP), Autism Friendly Performances section.

Divaraven5 (talk) 18:30, 7 December 2023 (UTC)
 * Reason for the change: Additional details with citations.
 * References supporting change:


 * Red information icon with gradient background.svg Not done for now: Please see Spintendo's comments, we need to know where to put these requested items, please amend the original request or reply below to let us know. Thanks :) Lewcm Talk to me! 21:31, 8 December 2023 (UTC)

Reply 7-DEC-2023
Regards, Spintendo  01:34, 8 December 2023 (UTC)
 * 1) It's unclear from your request where this information is to be placed within the article. The article itself is strictly segmented into varying sections. Please elaborate on where each sentence is to be placed.
 * 2) When ready to proceed with the requested information, kindly change the  template's answer parameter to read from y to n. Thank you!

Thanks for your speedy review. I included my edits in a version of the article and then undid my changes. Can you please review what I did, and see if you can accept it? Thank you! https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Theatre_Development_Fund&diff=prev&oldid=1190597112 --Divaraven5 (talk) 20:21, 18 December 2023 (UTC)
 * Thank you for reply, but we need to have to specifics placed here on the talk page. WP:ER states In general, if you want to make an edit request (1) propose a specific change on a talk page as well as the acronym SUNY, where S refers to any edit request must be accompanied by a detailed and specific description of what changes need to be made (the italicized emphasis is in the original text), and clearly indicate which sections or phrases should be replaced or added to, and what they should be replaced with or have added. Examples: Change X to Y; Insert X after/before Y; Remove X. As you can see, placing the specific information on a different page (in the form of a diff) other than the talk page, means your request is not accompaning its specific details as WP:ER suggests. Please place that information here and then relaunch the Edit COI template. Thank you! Regards, Spintendo  00:11, 19 December 2023 (UTC)

Thanks for your response. Please add the following citations:

Request 1: On October 2, 2011, TDF launched a new program, Autism Friendly Performances (originally known as the Autism Theatre Initiative), to make theatre accessible to children and adults on the autism spectrum as well as their families.

The next three requests should all appear under the TDF Accessibility Program (TAP) section of the Article.

Request 2:

Audio described performances
TDF presents audio described performances for audiences who are blind or have low vision. The organization presented its first audio described Broadway performance, the musical Grease, in 2008.

Request 3:

Theatre Access NYC
In 2016, TDF and The Broadway League partnered to launch TheatreAccessNYC, a website highlighting accessibility information for Broadway shows.

Request 4:

Veterans Theatregoing Program
In December 2017, TDF launched its Veterans Theatregoing Program, which brings NYC-area veterans to Broadway shows at no cost to participants.

Request 5: Citations 1 and 2 are the same article. Please combine.

--Divaraven5 (talk) 16:14, 3 January 2024 (UTC)
 * ✅ changes implemented.  STEM info  (talk) 01:38, 18 January 2024 (UTC)

Thank you! I appreciate the speedy turnaround. --Divaraven5 (talk) 18:47, 22 January 2024 (UTC)

New citations and language tweak
I would like propose additional changes.

Proposal 1: Add the following citation to the first sentence of the The Wendy Wasserstein Project section.

Proposal 2: Add the following citation to the first sentence of the Irene Sharaff/Robert L.B. Tobin Awards section.

Proposal 3: Add the following sentence and citation to the beginning of the TDF Costume Collection section: In 1974, the TDF Costume Collection opens, renting costumes to nonprofit and commercial productions.

Proposal 4: Citations 1 and 2 of the Theatre Development Fund article are the same. Please combine.

Proposal 5: In the TDF Accessibility Program (TAP) section, the last line uses the phrase "handicapped people." In the disability community, the phrase is "people with disabilities," to align with people-first language.

Thank you for considering! Divaraven5 (talk) 18:57, 22 January 2024 (UTC)
 * Encoded Talk to me! 07:41, 23 February 2024 (UTC)

Thank you so much! --Divaraven5 (talk) 18:18, 26 February 2024 (UTC)

Request to add additional citations please!
Proposal 1: In the intro paragraph, after "Created in 1968 to help an ailing New York theatre industry" please add this citation:

Proposal 2: Under Ticketing Programs, please add this citation to the TDF Membership Program:

Proposal 3: Under Ticketing Programs, please add this citation to after "Times Square TKTS Booth on June 25, 1973":

Proposal 4: Under Ticketing Programs, it says "TDF operates satellite TKTS booths at the South Street Seaport and in Downtown Brooklyn." Both of these booths have been closed for years, so please delete them. Also note that there's no citation for these TKTS booths.

Proposal 5: Under the TDF Accessibility Program (TAP) section, can we please rewrite the Sign language interpreting performances blurb like so and add the citations: TDF presented the first American Sign Language-interpreted performance on Broadway in 1980 at The Elephant Man.

Since then, TDF regularly presents ASL-interpreted performances on Broadway and beyond.

Thanks for considering all this!

--Divaraven5 (talk) 18:35, 26 February 2024 (UTC)
 * I have reviewed these proposed changes and suggest that you go ahead and make the proposed changes to the page. Except for the line Since then, TDF regularly presents ASL-interpreted performances on Broadway and beyond, which seems a bit promotional. ARandomName123 (talk)Ping me! 01:59, 4 March 2024 (UTC)


 * Thanks! I made the edits. You can see what I did here: https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Theatre_Development_Fund&diff=1213211024&oldid=1209720551

I appreciate your support! --Divaraven5 (talk) 18:16, 11 March 2024 (UTC)

New request
I'm back with another round of citations and edits. Let me know your thoughts.

Proposal 1: In the TDF Accessibility Program (TAP) section, I would like to add a new first line: TDF Accessibility Programs launched in 1979. Citation:

Proposal 2: Also in the TDF Accessibility Program (TAP) section, I would like to add a new first line to the Open captioning performances blurb: In 1979, TDF presented the first open captioned performances on Broadway in 1997, of the play Barrymore and the musical Jekyll & Hyde.

Proposal 3: In the Educational Programs section, I would like to add a new first line: TDF Education Programs launched in 1995. Citation:

Proposal 4: In the Ticketing Programs section, in the TKTS Discount Booths blurb, please change "TDF opened its new TKTS booth in the revitalized Duffy Square" to: In 2008, TDF opened the revamped Times Square TKTS Booth in the revitalized Duffy Square. Citation:

Thank you for considering. --Divaraven5 (talk) 18:34, 11 March 2024 (UTC)
 * ❌ See my comments below. P,TO 19104 (talk) (contribs) 02:13, 18 June 2024 (UTC)

New Edit Request June 5, 2024
Proposal 1: In the The Wendy Wasserstein Project section, after the phrase: "Formerly Open Doors," please put the following citation:

Proposal 2: In the Wendy Wasserstein Project section, please add the following sentence and citation: In 2012, the program received a Tony Honor for Excellence in the Theatre, the first theatre education program to be presented with the distinction.

Proposal 3: In the Wendy Wasserstein Project section, add this citation after the specified mentor names. Wendy Wasserstein Project mentors.
 * Kathleen Chalfant
 * James Lapine
 * Scott Ellis

--Divaraven5 (talk) 16:07, 5 June 2024 (UTC)
 * ❌ See section below. P,TO 19104 (talk) (contribs) 02:13, 18 June 2024 (UTC)

NPOV concerns
Hello, I have some concerns about other editors continuing to allow the above COI editor to make changes to this article. The whole article seems to have issues that violate WP:NOTPROMO. For example, why does this article not seem to mention anything about this organization's history, founding, or community impact and only seems to focus on the programs that are currently offered. Much of the article reads as if I am on this organization's website, which is quite problematic. I urge other editors to respectfully deny further requests by Divaraven5, and I ask her if she could instead resubmit the above requests so that they instead focus on the organization's past and impact instead of the programs offered. Best, P,TO 19104 (talk) (contribs) 02:13, 18 June 2024 (UTC)


 * @P,TO 19104: Hi, as far as I can tell, the edit I accepted seems fine. It just added a few references, deleted some outdated information, and added the sentence "TDF presented the first American Sign Language-interpreted performance on Broadway in 1980 at The Elephant Man." I guess the sentence could be seen as violating WP:NOTPROMO, but it's just a simple statement of fact to me. ARandomName123 (talk)Ping me! 02:32, 18 June 2024 (UTC)
 * Thanks for comment and  Thanks for the hours of research and editing that you put into this article recently. I am writing to take responsibility for giving  the advice to make the edit request posts on this page, and to now ask for your advice about how she can go forward with some additional requests.
 * My name is Lane, and I do wiki editing as staff of the University of Virginia. Staff editing goes differently in every case, so really, if you have a recommendation, then please say so and Raven will follow it and I will support you both. I used to live in New York City and join events at WP:Meetup/NYC, which is why I care about Broadway theatre. I know Raven personally and I am also a 10-year member of TDF, so my support is for the arts, NYC, this organization specifically, and Raven as a friend and colleague. She is staff of TDF; there is no other money exchanged here and I think nothing more for me to disclose.
 * The advice that I gave her to develop this article was to first get all sources that she could find cited in the article, then after including all sources, pull more content out of each one and develop the article. Before she started making edit requests there were 3 reliable sources cited. Now there are 23. I told her to get one sentence from each source into the article because Wikipedia requires sources, so to add content, first it is necessary to know what sources exist. She was just arriving to the point of making edit requests for all sources when you asked for more scrutiny.
 * After you asked for a break, you also edited the article a lot, so thanks for that. Raven has some requests for more edits and would like you to say how she should or should not make these requests. I talked to her, and I think her requests will include removing information without citations, changing some details where this article makes a claim which does not match the cited sources, and bringing in new information from sources already considered.
 * I am at hand to support more. I checked the sources she cited and thought they passed WP:RS for her intended use. I can comment more as needed. If it is helpful, I can recruit more reviewers or commentators from a noticeboard, or do other things you suggest as useful. It is good to be skeptical of paid editors, and I am one of those also, but she is trying to follow the rules and I am trying to give advice as someone who sometimes does the same thing. Thanks for any feedback. Be direct in asking any questions that could make you trust our process and requests more.  Bluerasberry   (talk)  15:34, 26 June 2024 (UTC)
 * Most of Raven's edits normally would have been benign had there not been an issue with tone of the article as a whole being exceptionally promotional. The issue with Raven's edits were not that they were poorly sourced, it was that contributed to promotional nature of the article. I also would like to acknowledge that it was not Raven who originally wrote many of the sections that were promotional of the TDF, and that it does seem she was only trying to help insert better sources. However, at that point the article was already to far gone: it needed a drastic rewrite so that it could truly become an encyclopedia article. I welcome new edit requests from her that would add to the current framework of the article. P,TO 19104 (talk) (contribs) 23:13, 26 June 2024 (UTC)


 * Thanks for your guidance and, thanks for your incredible research and rewriting of the article! That was actually next on my list to do, I was just trying to get citations in place first. You saved me a lot of time and effort, and I am so grateful for your interest in improving this article.

There are some errors / outdated information in this overhauled article. See my suggestions for edits below. I suggestions citations when they weren't already cited in this article, although at times I had to cite TDF's website. I am happy to make these changes myself if I get your okay. I am also open to feedback, of course, if you question any of these edits, and happy to clarify anything that's unclear.

General note: We are usually referred to as TDF, not "the TDF." This is not an error per se, but a style choice. If you prefer to leave it as is I understand.

First paragraph update requests:

"The TDF heavily subsidizes Broadway, Off-Broadway, and Off-off-broadway theatre and dance productions that it deems to be of cultural value, with their most prominent program of this type being TKTS discount ticket booths."

We stopped giving subsidies to productions as of this fiscal year. See https://www.tdf.org/for-the-makers/sell-tickets-through-tdf/tdf-subsidy I realize you may be using that word more generally, but since it was something we did, giving money to productions, I think it is confusing. We still support Broadway, Off-Broadway etc. by selling their tickets, including, as you mention, at the TKTS Booth. Would it be possible to change that line to something like: "TDF supports Broadway, Off-Broadway, and Off-off-broadway theatre and dance productions by building audiences and selling tickets, with their most prominent program being the TKTS discount ticket booths." If you would like to add a citation that supports this, see this New York Times article: https://www.nytimes.com/2023/06/28/theater/victoria-bailey-tdf-tkts.html

"It has received a Special Tony Award for its work." It was actually for a specific program, the Wendy Wasserstein Project, not our work overall, so not sure if you want to clarify. Also, I think your 1. citation was meant to be put at the end of that sentence, but it's not there, and the link is slightly wrong. It should be: https://www.tonyawards.com/winners/year/any/category/tony-honors/show/any/?q=tdf

History section update requests:

"After this first initiative was successful, the TDF set up the TKTS booth in Duffy Square in 1972 that sold tickets to shows at discounted prices, which turned out to be a more effective way of subsidizing the plays." This is incorrect and not supported in the citations. The TKTS booth in Duffy Square opened in 1973 (see citation 6). We started our TDF membership program (which you mention in the next paragraph as our voucher program) in 1972, I think that's what led to the confusion.

"The TDF has continued to expand the network of TKTS discount ticket booths to other sites such a satellite booth at the Lincoln Center and another franchized booth in London.[7]" The Society of London Theatre licensed the trademark from us but we are otherwise unaffiliated, as per the TKTS Wiki article: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/TKTS Citation: https://www.tdf.org/on-stage/tdf-stages/when-tkts-went-to-london/

"Starting in 1972, the TDF began subsidizing Off-off-Broadway productions by offering vouchers[8] to people that would be typically unlikely to see them, such as teachers and retired persons." Our voucher program (now our membership program) wasn't just for Off-Off Broadway. It was for all NYC theatre, so Broadway, Off-Broadway and Off-Off Broadway.

"At the time, the vouchers would cost 80 cents for the consumers and would entitle the playhouse to $2.50." These numbers only applied to Off-Off Broadway, not Broadway or Off-Broadway shows. Citation 4 has numbers for Broadway: "It found that any number of productions doing a lot less than capacity business were willing to provide tickets at $2 each, and these the fund disposed of for $2.50." I think maybe leaving numbers out might be easier but I defer to you.

"The TDF continues to offer Off-off-Broadway vouchers, but in a different format." Not just Off-Off, we offer tickets to shows on Broadway and beyond as well as dance and some music performances. This is now called the TDF membership program. I would change this line to something like: "TDF continues to offer discount tickets to shows on Broadway and beyond through its membership program." Citation: https://www.tdf.org/discount-ticket-programs/tdf-membership/

"TDF Costume Collection houses over 65,000 costumes and accessories..." We have more than 100,000 items now. Citation: https://www.tdf.org/for-the-makers/tdf-costume-collection-programs/

"In 2011, the program also started providing services to adults and children on the autistic spectum by providing autism friendly sources." We don't just provide autism-friendly resources. We are the only org presenting autism-friendly performances on Broadway. In addition to having experts and volunteers on hand to help families, we work with producers to change Broadway productions to be sensory-friendly, so no loud or sudden noises, house lights are up, etc. This sentence could be something like: "In 2021, the program launched autism-friendly performances, presenting Broadway shows in a welcoming and supportive environment for families impacted by autism. Adjustments are made to the shows to make the content sensory-friendly, break areas are provided, and volunteers are on hand to help." Citation: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ey1W57Nt4qA&ab_channel=FOX5NewYork

"They offer an introduction class for theatre called "Introduction to Theatre", which is offered to about 10,000 high school students in New York City." - we serve 10,000 high school students annually, any way to add that word, annually?

"In 1997, TDF introduced the Wendy Wasserstein/Open Doors program" - this started in 1998 and is called the Wendy Wasserstein Project, not program. See citations 19 and 20.

"TKTS discount ticket booths for Broadway plays, which are apart of its broader program to subsidize Dance and Theatre" - we sell Off-Broadway tickets at the booth too (not Off-Off Broadway though). And this no longer subsidizes theatre or dance. Citation 22 is no longer valid.

Off-Off Broadway vouchers should be the TDF membership program, which sells discounted tickets to Broadway, Off-Broadway and Off-Off Broadway shows as well as dance and music performances: https://www.tdf.org/discount-ticket-programs/tdf-membership/

Under criticism, again the word "subsidization" may be misleading as we are no longer offering subsidies. Especially this sentence: "This is due to the fact that the organization sometimes uses federal grant money in order to subsidize Broadway, which some question as a good use of taxpayer money (especially since doing so constitutes a bailout of a commerical enterprise)." We are just selling discount tickets, but for example with our Passport program, the government gives producers are huge tax break, which is controversial. All we are doing is selling the inexpensive tickets.

Thank you for considering and for all of your hard work on this!

--Divaraven5 (talk)
 * I corrected the year of the opening of the TKTS booth. I will defer to other editors for the rest of these edits, see below. P,TO 19104 (talk) (contribs) 15:55, 17 July 2024 (UTC)

Continuing with conflict of interest requests
Here is the only ask in this post:


 * Under what circumstances can I continue to encourage Divaraven5 (Raven) to break her large list COI edit requests into small pieces for wiki-reviewer consideration over time?

Here is my summary of the conflict of interest requests. Everything seems cool here but WP:COI edit requests are often problematic and confusing, so I wanted to propose a shared narrative here.


 * 1) I am Lane user:bluerasberry and I am Wikimedian in Residence at the University of Virginia. I also coordinate activities with Wikimedia New York City, which is where this TDF organization coordinates programs related to [[Broadway theatre]. Raven is my friend and a colleague in promoting arts in NYC. I am advising Raven about how to make good edit requests in Wikipedia. Raven is staff of TDF; I am not getting paid nor is there any special funding in play related to Wikipedia and TDF. For anyone not familiar with TDF, they are well known in NYC especially for having a ticket booth in Times Square but also for being associated with nonprofit promotion of theatre in NYC.
 * 2) Raven made edit requests which were fulfilled in special:permalink/1198004872, special:permalink/1210455257, and special:permalink/1213211527.
 * 3) Raven made two more edit requests and fulfillment was halted due to concerns about being promotional - special:permalink/1229670040.
 * 4) Discussion about possible promotion at special:permalink/1231184499
 * 5) who halted the COI request fulfillment volunteers ~6 hours as evidenced in edit history (plus additional reading time) in rewriting the article documented in special:diff/1227413914/1230249449. Thanks P,TO, that is a major lift and benefit to the article

With gratitude to P,TO and all the other reviewers, Raven has a last set of edit requests. Raven posted the entirety of the rest of the requests to expose everything she suggests but done, but right now it is a lot of text and would take hours to sort. My recommendation is for
 * 1) Raven to break the requests into smaller sets, and propose them one at a time
 * 2) Raven's requests be staged to make them easy to incorporate, including with citations formatted and the suggestions clearly labeled about where in the wikitext they could go

I am asking all this because P,TO called for a check-in about promotionalism. Here are some things I could do to make this an easier decision:
 * 1) I could solicit an additional opinion at WP:3O or WP:COIN
 * 2) I could have Raven edit the wikitext directly then immediately self-revert, which would clearly communicate through the edit history exactly what she is requesting
 * 3) I could document my own check of the reliability of the sources and that the proposed edits mirror the suggested text to add
 * 4) all of these, any other suggestions

My general goal is to support Raven in getting the TDF article in shape by end of 2024. Thanks for consideration.  Bluerasberry  (talk)  13:40, 17 July 2024 (UTC)
 * Yes I would agree that this is a great idea. Breaking these requests into ite sized pieces would allow other editors to approve or rejects specific items as they see fit. One thing that I would also like to see improved in this article (this is self-criticism as well) are the references to the TDF website, since officially it is discouraged to refer to the organization's website within the article. Personally, I do not object to using the TDF website for dates and years since secondary sources are unlikely to have a correct if not different timeline of the TDF's work. However, I think using the website for most other facts (e.g. costume inventory) would be in violation of WP:RS and WP:COI. P,TO 19104 (talk) (contribs) 15:43, 17 July 2024 (UTC)