Talk:Theophoric name

Untitled
Info I have found out from a good source: Can we have some confirmation of this?
 * "Jonathan" does not come from the Greek noun for god.
 * Claiming that Samuel comes from the Sumerian El is speculative.
 * Johnathan is Hebrew, from Yehova. Samuel is Hebrew, from El - the Hebrew word for God.

I must insist on sources for this article. This information seems to be amazingly wrong. - Ta bu shi da yu 14:13, 1 Jan 2005 (UTC)
 * This User applied a "disputed factual accuracy" label to the very abbreviated entry (perhaps partly because it was headed Theophory&mdash; unnecessarily obscure, a common Wikipedia failing). I've now added some quickly-googled references and removed the label. More generally, there is currently a lot of behind-the-scenes discussion going on at No original research. Here is a classic case of perfectly commonplace information being challenged, taken for "original research"&mdash;"I must insist on sources for this article"&mdash;simply because the User is uninformed. "Theophory" was a pretty opaque heading, we'd all agree... --Wetman 02:59, 13 Mar 2005 (UTC)

Further: "Theoditus" seems to be a misspelled of "Theodotus". - Ta bu shi da yu 14:15, 1 Jan 2005 (UTC)
 * Another time one might just fix misspellings. Rather than label them "disputed factual accuracy" --Wetman 02:59, 13 Mar 2005 (UTC)

"Jonathan" is indeed Hebrew. It is an Israelite name and a contraction of "Jehonathan" &#1497;&#1456;&#1492;&#1493;&#1465;&#1504;&#1464;&#1514;&#1464;&#1503; listed below; both forms are used interchangeably for the son of King Saul. This name is not directly related to the Semitic god Yaw, who was not worshipped by the Israelites, but is clearly derived from the name of the Israelite God YHWH, i.e. Yahwe, Jehovah or whatever. There may be some link between the names YHWH and Yaw, but no direct link. The same is true for the El name in Samuel, Elizabeth etc; although El was a Canaanite deity, for the Israelites who used these names El was simply one of the words they used to refer to their one God. Peterkirk 14:00, 4 January 2006 (UTC)

Theophoric Names starting with "Yeho"
A new section has been added to the Wikipedia Article:Theophoric Names.

The title of the section is:
 * Theophoric Names starting with "Yeho"

Seeker02421 11:02, 30 December 2005 (UTC)

The table below shows Theophoric names starting with "Yeho". B-Hebrew transcriptions have been added to this Table, that are not shown in the Table in the Article
 * Except for the column marked "B-Hebrew", the Data in this table below,
 * can be found in Strong's Exhaustive Concordance of the Bible, 1890 Edition.
 * Seeker02421 23:30, 25 September 2007 (UTC)

'''[ Note! Hebrew reads from right to left ]'''

Seeker02421 01:29, 3 January 2006 (UTC)

Theophoric Names starting with "Yeho" [Reformated]
The table below is a reformated version of the table found in Section #1.


 * The Data in this table below, can be found in Strong's Exhaustive Concordance of the Bible, 1890 Edition.
 * Seeker02421 23:33, 25 September 2007 (UTC)
 * Seeker02421 23:36, 25 September 2007 (UTC)

'''[ Note! Hebrew reads from right to left ]'''

Seeker02421 23:14, 25 September 2007 (UTC)

Can Theophoric Names be derived from "YaHWeH"?
In section # 5 of the Wikipedia Article:Theophoric Names, three scholarly sources are quoted as saying that theophoric names can be derived from "YaHWeH".


 * The question being raised here:
 * Can it be shown that theophoric names can be derived from YaHWeH?

Can Nethaniah be derived from YaHWeH?
_____________________________________________________________________ Second attempt to derive Nethaniah by compounding YaHWeH with Nathan _____________________________________________________________________ Does [i.e. YaHWeH] added as a suffix to  [i.e. Nathan] =  [ i.e. Nethaniah ]?
 * Nethaniah [ i.e. ] is found at 2 Kings 25:23 in the NIV Interliniar Hebrew-English Old Testament where it is translated as "Nethaniah"


 * James Strong designates as Hebrew Word # 5418.
 * James Strong transliterates as Nethanyah

-

1. I added the suffix [ i.e. YaH:WeH ] to ‎ [ i.e. Nathan ].


 * I ended up with +  = [ Nathan + yah:weh ]

2. I now changed the "Nun Sofeet" to a regular Nun with a silent shewa under it.


 * I ended up with  +  =  =  [Nathan:yah:weh]

3. I assumed that the qamets under the first nun in Nathan reduces to a shewa.


 * I now ended up with =  [Nethan:yah:weh]

4. I now dropped the "segol heh" which left the waw as a consonant:


 * I now ended up with =  [Nethan:yah:w]

5. At this point can the "waw" be deleted, and then can the silent shewa under the heh be deleted, which means that we would end up with =  [Nethan:yah] However is there a Hebrew grammar rule that will now require that the patah under the yod be changed to a qamets?

__________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________

The following text was found at YHWHgroup YHWH: >>>

So can anyone explain how Y'ho- could come from Yahweh?


 * Here is the answer Koehler/Baumgartner
 * (Lexicon in Veteris Testamenti Libros, Leiden 1985)
 * gives:


 * "'Yahweh' at the end of a word is shortened into 'yaw' (...) and this,
 * 'w' being a semi-vocalic consonant, is stressed as '-yahu',
 * this shortened to 'ya-' (...).


 * Note! If [i.e. YaH:WeH] had been  [e.g. YaHuWaH], the process would have been more straight forward.


 * One source that was quoted on b-hebrew claimed that [e.g. YaHuWaH], could be derived from "Iaoue" ?????
 * Note" It seems more likely that [e.g. YaHuWaH], could have been derived from "Iaoua".


 * At the beginning of a word 'yahu' looses its stress becoming 'yehu-',
 * which, by dissimilation of the vowel, becomes 'yeho-',
 * this, by elision of 'h' becomes 'yo';


 * thus: 'Yahunatan' becomes 'Yehunatan' becomes 'Yehonatan' becomes 'Yonatan' (...).


 * Preceding a syllable with 'u',
 * 'yo' turns into 'ye' [pronounce 'yay'], as in: 'Yeshua'."
 * (words between square brackets are mine)

>>>

___________________________________________________________________________________


 * Adding the suffix [i.e. YaHWeH] to  [i.e. Nathan]


 * "'Yahweh' at the end of a word is shortened into 'yaw' (...) and this,
 *  'w' being a semi-vocalic consonant, is stressed as '-yahu',
 * this shortened to 'ya-' (...)."

____________________________________________________________________________________

Using the italicized text above as a guide [see the full text at the beginning of this section], the question being asked is:

Does [i.e. YaHWeH] added as a suffix to  [i.e. Nathan] =  [ i.e. Nethaniah ]?
 * Nethaniah [ i.e. ] is found at 2 Kings 25:23 in the NIV Interliniar Hebrew-English Old Testament where it is translated as "Nethaniah"


 * James Strong designates as Hebrew Word # 5418.
 * James Strong transliterates as Nethanyah


 * Going in steps according to the above italicized text,
 * we would seem to first get [i.e. Nethanyaw].


 * 1) Note that the qamets that was originally under the 1st nun in  [i.e. Nathan] has been reduced to a simple shewa.
 * 2) Note that the 2nd nun [ i.e. nun sofeet ] in  [i.e. Nathan] has been changed to a regular nun.
 * 3) Note that a silent shewa is now found under this 2nd nun, as during the compounding process, a yod now follows the 2nd nun. This silent shewa is being used as a syllable divider.
 * 4) "YaHWeH" has now been shortened to "Yaw". HOW??? WHY???
 * 5) Note that both "heh's and the segol" are now missing from "YaHWeH", yet the "waw" remains. WHY???


 * Continuing according to the above italicized text,
 * the next step requires that the waw in "Yaw" be stressed as "Yahu",
 * and it would seem that we might get [ i.e. Nethanyahu ].


 * 1) Note that this required that the first heh in "YaHWeH", removed earlier, be replaced, and the "waw" is now changed to a "shureq" WHY???


 * Again going by the italicized text above,
 * after shortening "YaHWeH" first to "Yaw",
 * [by deleting both "heh"'s and the "segol"]
 * the removed 1st heh is then re-inserted,
 * and the "waw" in "Yahw" is now changed to a "shureq".
 * which changes "Yahw" to "Yahu",
 * and the italicized text notes that "Yahu" is then shortened to "Ya-"


 * Additional italicized text says:
 * At the beginning of a word, 'yahu' looses its stress, becoming 'yehu-',
 * which, by dissimilation of the vowel, becomes 'yeho-',
 * this, by elision of 'h' becomes 'yo';


 * Thus: 'Yahunatan' becomes 'Yehunatan' becomes 'Yehonatan' becomes 'Yonatan' (...).


 * Nethaniah [ i.e. נְתַנְיָה‎ ] is found at 2 Kings 25:23 in the NIV Interliniar Hebrew-English Old Testament where it is translated as "Nethaniah"
 * James Strong designates נְתַנְיָה‎ as Hebrew Word # 5418.
 * James Strong transliterates נְתַנְיָה‎ as Nethanyah

Going in steps according to the above italicized text, we would seem to first get נְתַנְיָו‎ [i.e. Nethanyaw].

In the next subsection, Christian Ginsburg's explanation for why Theophoric names prefixed with "Jeho" were altered and became Theophoric names prefixed with "Jo" will be presented.

"Yeho" prefixes changed to "Yo" prefixes
In the table in section 3.1 of the Wikipedia Article:Theophoric Names it should be noted that 13 Theophoric names with "Yeho" prefixes have corresponding forms [in bold type] in which the letters "e" and "h" have been omitted.

In Scott Jones' Article:"Jehovah", it states:
 * In the 19th century a converted Jew and Masoretic scholar, Christian Ginsburg, undertook a detailed study of the Masoretic text. In this study, he traced the pedigree of the Scriptures and noted how the Jewish guardians of the Hebrew text took safeguards in order to make sure the Tetragrammaton was not accidentally pronounced at the wrong time or by the wrong people or in the wrong place -


 * "There are, however, a number of compound names in the Bible into the composition of which three out of the four letters of the Incommunicable Name have entered. Moreover, these letters which begin the names in question are actually pointed   Jeho, as the Tetragrammaton itself and hence in a pause at the reading of the first part of the name it sounded as if the reader was pronouncing the Ineffable Name. To guard against it an attempt was made by a certain school of redactors of the text to omit the letter He   so that the first part of the names in question has been altered from Jeho  into Jo ."
 * Christian Ginsburg, Introduction To the Massoretico-Critical Edition Of The Hebrew Bible, p 369.

Can Yehownathan be derived from YaHWeH?
___________________________________________________________________________________


 * Adding the prefix [i.e. YaHWeH] to  [i.e. Nathan]


 * "'Yahweh' at the end of a word is shortened into 'yaw' (...) and this,
 *  'w' being a semi-vocalic consonant, is stressed as '-yahu',
 * this shortened to 'ya-' (...)."


 * At the beginning of a word 'yahu' looses its stress becoming 'yehu-',
 * which, by dissimilation of the vowel, becomes 'yeho-',
 * this, by elision of 'h' becomes 'yo';


 * thus: 'Yahunatan' becomes 'Yehunatan' becomes 'Yehonatan' becomes 'Yonatan' (...).

____________________________________________________________________________________

Using the italicized text above as a guide the question being asked is:
 * Can Yehownathan be derived from YaHWeH?
 * Or in other words,
 * Can, be derived from ?

Does [i.e. Nathan] prefixed with  [i.e. YaHWeH] =   [ i.e. Yehownathan ].


 * Yehownathan [ i.e. ], is found at Samuel 14:6 in The NIV Interlinear Hebrew-English Old Testament where it is translated as Jonathan


 * James Strong designates as Hebrew Word #3083.
 * James Strong transliterates as Yehownathan.

Does =

+ ?

The assumption is being made here, that many of the changes that were seen to occur in Section # 2.1 of these discussions will also occur here. [The next four sentences are speculative.]


 * If [ i.e. Yahweh ] at the beginning of a theophoric name shortens to   [ i.e. Yaw ] we might expect to first get


 * Note that both "heh" 's and the "segol" and the "silent shewa" are missing from the prefixed &#8212; only remains.
 * For the moment remains intact, but the finalized theophoric name  ends up with a "qamets" under the "taw".
 * Does "Yaw" once again have to change to "Yahu" and then loose its stress and become "Yeho"?
 * What rules would change the "patah" under the "taw" into a "qamets"?

Over-emphasis on theophoric names in Hebrew
This article seems to be about the concept of theophoric names across multiple religions but more than 75% of it is about theophoric names in Hebrew. How about creating an article titled Theophoric names in Hebrew and moving most of the text in this article to that new article? That would restore the balance in this article of discussion of theophoric names in other religions. --Richard 22:50, 5 May 2007 (UTC)

Samuel
The 'translation/meaning' of the bible name Samuel is stated as being "his name is El" i.e. 'his name is God'. Surely this is incorrect! --Lepton6 (talk) 12:00, 16 May 2008 (UTC)

Marcus/Mars
The Roman name Marcus (and thus Marc and Mark) comes from that of the god Mars. Should this be included?Lily20 (talk) 21:05, 23 November 2009 (UTC)

Not a word
Can't find this word in any of at least 20 dictionaries. Only exists on wikipedia. Seems to be a neologism, a combination of Theo (god) and -phor (metaphor; from Greek: pherein, to carry) with the suffix -ic. To carry a god's name; to bear a god's name. Someone is trying to make a word, using the internet as a vessel. This probably makes some people feel important, but violates WP:NOR. Article needs to be moved to a suitable title space, an article name not invented by Wikipedia users.--IronMaidenRocks (talk) 10:47, 14 December 2010 (UTC)


 * Suggest you buy yourself a better dictionary.
 * A simple Google Books search finds almost 19,000 hits for "theophoric" used in this sense . It is the standard term for this idea.
 * Here's a very short def at the Oxford Dictionaries website, and here's Merrion-Webster confirming that it is in the full Merrion-Webster Unabridged Dictionary:.
 * It is not a new concept. The older variant "theophorous", now less common, appears in almost a dozen articles in the 1905 Jewish Encyclopedia, published over a century ago ; and here's the topic being discussed in an article from the 1911 Catholic Encyclopedia .  Jheald (talk) 11:48, 14 December 2010 (UTC)


 * It's in the printed Concise Oxford Dictionary (1990 edition). SamuelTheGhost (talk) 13:02, 14 December 2010 (UTC)
 * Interestingly, Google Ngrams shows "theophorous" and "theophoric" both coming in in the mid-1880s, and roughly maintaining par with each other until about 1960, after which "theophoric" very much leaves "theophorous" behind: . Jheald (talk) 21:45, 20 December 2010 (UTC)
 * Sorry about that. Its just all too common for people to try and create words on Wikipedia, such as "afrophobia". It seems the Oxford Compact is the only dictionary to have published the word in over 20 years. Google hits really don't show anything conclusive; Sometimes google hits regarding a term come from wikipedia-related searches, or blogs and other internet sites may be quoting from wikipedia. In any case, you're right. It seems like this term has been used almost exclusively within fields of academic religious study. That may be why most dictionaries do not contain it. --IronMaidenRocks (talk) 13:12, 21 December 2010 (UTC)
 * Google Books and Google Ngrams are based on printed material, not the web. There weren't so many websites around in 1885.  Jheald (talk) 15:07, 21 December 2010 (UTC)
 * It's also in the printed Concise Oxford Dictionary, 1976 edition, which is well before the web. SamuelTheGhost (talk) 16:15, 21 December 2010 (UTC)
 * Sorry, Jheald, I misunderstood you. I didn't think of using Google Books to find out the origin of the word. Seems I jumped the gun in ignorance. --IronMaidenRocks (talk) 05:56, 22 December 2010 (UTC)

bigass table
There's considerable redundancy in the Y(eh)o table. Here's a possible rearrangement. (Or how about a refactoring? I hear they're all the rage.)

Is the transliteration a bit nonstandard? Length marks are missing, for one thing, and lenition is inconsistent. —Tamfang (talk) 06:14, 3 January 2011 (UTC)


 * No comment (and no change), guess I'll just do it —Tamfang (talk) 16:56, 25 July 2015 (UTC)

Merger proposal
There seems to be a duplicate article that has been created. ~ Iamthecheese44 (talk) 22:48, 9 April 2013 (UTC)
 * Yep, followed a redlink. Self deleted and refs transferred here. In ictu oculi (talk) 01:52, 10 April 2013 (UTC)

Ancient Egyptian names that has names of gods in them
For example, Tutankhamun's original name, Tutankhaten, means "Living Image of Aten", while Tutankhamun means "Living Image of Amun". If Germanic gods are allowed as examples, then other pagan gods should also be allowed to. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2602:306:335F:DCC0:94F:4DE9:1229:A850 (talk) 18:43, 12 August 2014 (UTC)

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Timotheus?
Timotheus is listed in the Christian section, but most of the people on the disambiguation page predate Christianity. Perhaps it should be either moved or copied into the Classical section? Jfmantis (talk) 22:54, 23 January 2017 (UTC)

What about Samael?
I mean, obviously the name doesn't "invok[e] and display[] the protection of" El, but it certainly "embeds the name of" El (emphasis added). While its theophobic nature would certainly disqualify it as a theophilic name, that should not, in my opinion, disqualify it as a theophoric name. Wiktionary, after all, defines theophoric as merely "[c]ontaining the name of a deity" (emphasis added)—which, to me, seems the appropriate parametre, and would mean that the name Samael (meaning venom of god) would constitute a theophoric name. Even the present article states that theophoros literally means "bearing or carrying a god"—so, again, Samael would seem appropriate for inclusion. allixpeeke (talk) 06:02, 28 July 2020 (UTC)

Joseph can NOT be a theophoric name of Yahweh
How can Joseph be a theophoric name of Yahweh when Moses first learned of it in Exodus 6:3? For those that claim Moses wrote the old testament, and therefore inserted it in regards to Abraham and other patriarchs (when they called on it), can not rely on such an argument to explain the name of Joseph. For if Joseph is indeed a theophoric name of Yahweh, then Rebecca (Joseph's mother) would have known the name Yahweh thus contradicting Exodus 6:3. DocMando (talk) 01:14, 28 December 2020 (UTC)
 * Yahweh is not God's name. That's a common misconception. ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 21:26, 5 January 2021 (UTC)

Interesting tables related to extended meanings of YHWH
I find the tables related to the various meanings very interesting, but miss any references as to their origin. Would the person who has entered these tables please provide such references, otherwise these are just conjecture and do not belong in a wikipedia article. Hskoppek (talk) 12:07, 29 January 2022 (UTC)

George
It's a pre-Christian Greek name, apparently originating from Zeus Georgos, which was an ancient Athenian agrarian god. The agrarian aspect is in the name's etymology in fact, meaning "earthworker' and\ or "husbandman". 92.114.148.91 (talk) 22:27, 12 October 2022 (UTC)