Talk:Theory of mind impairment in autism

About the article
I created the article Does the autistic child have a 'theory of mind'? on 08/10/2007. It is an important psychological research. I will improve this article. Masterpiece2000 04:33, 8 October 2007 (UTC)

I don't have the source in front of me, but it looks like the data table entry for the normal children's verbal mental age is off. Sten for the win 22:55, 7 November 2007 (UTC)

comment on notability
I was asked to comment by Masterpiece2000. We do not generally have articles based on individual research papers unless they are of truly world-shaking significance--This is a very major paper, being cited 983 times according to Web of Science, and probably does define the research field. Even so, there will be problems using the present title unless it can be found can find that the paper itself has won some awards as a particular paper & has some authoritative comment about its precedent-setting position. But then the article should talk about the reception of the theory, based on the citations. And the method & logic can probably be written more concisely. Add a simple diagram, perhaps, of your own. I think it could just possibly be defended, but it is not the best choice of options.

As SandyGeorgia said., this is covered fully in the article on theory of mind. It could however bear an added paragraph giving the basic experimental set up and results, as it is a paradigmatic experiment. One alternative is to describe it in a paragraph or two on the article on Simon Baron-Cohen, as it's his first major work. But perhaps the best would be to add it concisely with a diagram into the article on Mindblindness which is the name B-C uses for his theory. Better to do that, than have an afd on the present article.

BTW, that bio article on him could use some basic data, such as date & place of birth, years of degrees, and honours and awards.DGG (talk) 04:33, 15 February 2008 (UTC)
 * Well stated; while it is a significant paper, it's not of world-shaking significance, and we can't have an article on every journal paper unless it's notable. I do hope a place can be found for the content.  Consider Causes of autism, Simon Baron-Cohen or Theory of mind; I'm not too bothered about this (it was just in the back of my mind on a to-do list from months ago), so please don't feel pressured.  Sandy Georgia  (Talk) 05:05, 15 February 2008 (UTC)


 * My suggestion would be to move this content to Theory of mind, as a new subsection. It's not enough to stand on its own. Eubulides (talk) 06:15, 17 February 2008 (UTC)


 * This sounds like the best approach to me as well; still concerned about an article that covers only one journal paper, when the entire topic is dealt with elsewhere. Sandy Georgia  (Talk) 19:35, 17 February 2008 (UTC)
 * Four days, I went ahead and shortened the article to a more encyclopedic summary and merged it to Theory of Mind; not sure if this should now be prod'd or redirected. Sandy Georgia  (Talk) 04:24, 21 February 2008 (UTC)


 * I think there is enough content to have a separate page for Theory of Mind impairment in autism. I could work on it to build the breadth of this page (beyond a single article), and then we could make a decision about whether the information is worthy to stand on it's own. Thoughts?--Svernon (talk) 04:36, 21 February 2008 (UTC)
 * Please see the discussion on notability above; we don't have articles on every journal paper, unless they are earth-shattering, award-winning, notable in their own rights. Content can be added at Theory of Mind, where I merged the content. We also don't repeat extreme detail on every study in Wiki; we just don't need to repeat primary sources verbatim, we comment on topics according to what independent, reliable secondary sources say about them, which is what needs to be added.  Sandy Georgia  (Talk) 04:38, 21 February 2008 (UTC)

RE: beginning
"The theory of mind impairment in autism is widely considered as one of the main causes of autism."

- I would remove this. This is not true. The ToM impairment is NOT a cause of autism, but may be a by-product of the differences in the way they think. We don't current know the cause of autism, although much of the research suggests a genetic component.

"Autism is a neurodevelopmental disorders that impairs social interaction and communication, and causes restricted and repetitive behavior, all starting before a child is three years old. This set of signs distinguishes autism from milder autism spectrum disorders (ASD) such as Asperger syndrome." - this section was taken directly from the autism spectrum disorder page, and should be noted. As well, I am not sure that it is necessary to restate what is already available on another Wikipedia page.

The term: "Autistic children" should be avoided. It is not considered politically correct, nor in keeping with how any disorder or disability is worded, such as someone with a 'hearing impairment' etc.

"Find even the immediate social environment unpredictable and incomprehensible and are often said in some sense to ‘treat people and objects alike’." - need to reference this. I am not sure this is totally correct

'theory of mind (TOM)' - the correct notation is captial 'T', lowercase 'o', and capital 'M'. --Svernon (talk) 17:35, 17 February 2008 (UTC)
 * Actually, there is debate about politically correct language (autistic children, children with autism, individuals with autism, etc.) See autism rights movement and WP:MEDMOS for further confusion :-)  I try to alternate the terms to avoid problems.  Sandy Georgia  (Talk) 18:00, 17 February 2008 (UTC)

RE: improvements to article
I wrote this on your talk page, but figured, it would be best suited here.:

A "theory of mind" (ToM) impairment describes a difficulty with perspective taking. This is also sometimes referred to as 'mindblindness'. This means individuals with a ToM impairment would have a hard time seeing things from any other perspective than their own. [1] Individuals who experience a theory of mind deficit have difficulty determining the intentions of others, lack understanding of how their behavior affects others, and have a difficult time with social reciprocity. [2]

It is widely believed that individuals with an ASD do not possess a ToM, or have impaired ToM. In 1985, Baron-Cohen, Leslie and Frith published the first psychological research which suggested that children with autism do not employ a theory of mind.

NOTE: There was a researcher who spoke to some new finding that suggests individuals with an ASD might have a ToM, but gain it later in life. I will try to find her research for you. She presented at the "Stages of Autism: Adolescence & Beyond" Conference, May 15-16, 2006, Hamilton Convention Centre. Are you adding a page with only one research article? What about doing an article on the whole topic of "ToM"? I know that most neurotypical people do not gain a ToM until age 5-6 or so. Don't quote me on this exact age (I would have to look it up), but it is an interesting topic to have an article on. Good luck, and let me know if you need any other help/suggestions. --Svernon (talk) 18:28, 16 February 2008 (UTC)

Retrieved from "http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User_talk:Masterpiece2000" --Svernon (talk) 17:38, 17 February 2008 (UTC)

Link?
Should this article link to Sally-Anne test, or is the test discussed here a different one? Sandy Georgia (Talk) 19:44, 17 February 2008 (UTC)