Talk:Theresienstadt Ghetto/Archive 1

Previous discussion
Has all discussion and history on this page been removed by admins? ---BobLoblaw 07:07, 21 January 2006 (UTC)
 * Simply, no discussion since the page was created. You are the second here. Pavel Vozenilek 22:29, 21 January 2006 (UTC)

Photos
I have uploaded 3 photos which might help add to the view on Terezin


 * Entrance to the camp with distinctive styling.


 * Memorial built outside the camp.


 * Commandant's house in stark contrast to the conditions in the small fortress.

Collieman 16:04, 14 April 2006 (UTC)

Dates?
Part of this article reads:


 * On 3 May 1945 control of the camp was transferred from the Germans to the Red Cross. Five days later, on 5 May 1945 Terezín was liberated by Soviet troops.

May 5 is not five days later than May 3. Which is the correct date, May 5 (as stated) or May 8 (as implied by "Five days later")? The 5 May 1945 was just added, but I'm not sure that that means it's wrong... Hbackman 22:09, 21 March 2006 (UTC)

I have read several sources which confirm the arrival of Soviet troops at the camp on May 8. However, I also have one source which dates the arrival of the Red Cross as May 5, with the official control of the camp passing to Soviet officials on the morning of May 9 (Women of Theresienstadt, Ruth Schwertfeger 1988).

I also have another source which does not mention the arrival of the Red Cross previous to the liberation of the camp by Soviet troops. That source (Theresienstadt, Vera Schiff 1996) is a personal memior by a Czech Jewish nurse, who writes extensively on the typhus epidemic brought to Theresienstadt by death marchers from Birkenau on April 24. Schiff also states that death marchers under SS guard were brought to the camp during the last two weeks of April.

Schiff writes of the camp internees realizing only on the morning of May 8 that SS guards were not present to stop them from approaching the walls to watch the oncoming Soviet tanks, at which point they cut their way out through a section of chain-link. I find it puzzeling how a camp nurse would end up omitting the presense of the Red Cross, although I have left that section unchanged. Curious.

Paganolive 01:34, 11 September 2006 (UTC)

Article's name and language (concentration camp vs. ghetto)
I'd appreciate an explanation of:
 * * why the article's name doesn't begin with Theresienstadt, and doesn't include Terezin
 * * its predominant (per its title) yet internally inconsistent use of "concentration camp" rather than "ghetto"

Redirects aside, I'd have thought this article to be entitled somewhat otherwise, e.g. Theresienstadt (Terezin) ghetto''.

I'd like to read some discussion here on the above points, as I'm quite new to editing Wikipedia, and Holocaust topics are my primary area of endeavor (corresponding with RL :-) Thanks, Deborahjay 05:15, 2 June 2006 (UTC)


 * The designation "concentration camp" is confusing but not wrong. It´s mentioned in the article that Terezín was a ghetto for privileged Jews from Germany, "Czechoslovakia" and Austria. In fact, it was founded by Heydrich as a transit CAMP for Czech Jews only. For instance, people could not walk on the pavement, and the living conditions were tougher than in the later period.
 * More than 90 % of Protectorate Jews were transported to Terezín!
 * The CAMP became a GHETTO - and, partially, an "Altersghetto" (i.e., for older and/or privileged Ŕeich Jews) only after HEydrich was assasinated. As late as June 1942, first non-Protectorate Jews were deported to Terezín.
 * TO be exact, there was one more designation used for Terezín. In the spring of 1944, it became "area of settlement" instead of "ghetto".
 * The twists in the tactics of the Nazis meant Terezín was quite a different place in 1941, 1942, 1944 and 1945.
 * This is well described in the book by HG Adler - a magnum opus of the "Holocaust science". Highly recommended...

When I was in Theresienstadt, there were two places - the fortress, which was definitely a camp, and the town, which I believe may have contained a ghetto (but I'm not sure abou this). The fortress, which was the prison for Jews during the war, would never qualify as a ghetto - people didn't LIVE there, they were IMPRISONED there. And that, to me, is a quite big difference. --Alvestrand 15:56, 11 September 2006 (UTC)

Children in Theresienstadt
The article states: "There were 15,000 children living in the children's home inside the camp; only 93 of those children survived." For years I had been given, and had seen at Beit Terezin in Israel, a figure of 150 surviving children out of 15000, remarkably round figures. Both Yad Vashem and the Terezín Initiative Institute (www.holocaust.cz) give figures which seem to be very different. Friends who recently looked for the data at Yad Vashem came back with figures as follows: 7700 children entered T, of whom 1234 (this oddly mnemonic figure is not a mistake by me but the figure they found) survived the war.The Terezín Initiative Institute informs me: 'There were 10.500 children prisoners (under 14 years before deportation to Terezín) in Terezín Concentration Camp of whom 2300 survived the Holocaust and 700 died in Terezín. A couple of people professionally concerned with Holocaust education suggest to me that the apparent wide discrepancies relate to a very late influx of children who had a much higher survival rate than those in Terezín earlier. Could different age criteria for 'child' play a part? How many children were in T but not in 'the children's home'? My sister and I were two such, but I have no idea how many others there were. What about the Dutch 'Barneveld group' which was sent to T? Did it include a significant number of children? Were there Danish children? Were there other special groups with outcomes very different from that suggested in the current page?

Could someone who knows the documentary evidence comment and if possible edit the page to clarify these figures including legitimate uncertainties?

In view of the widespread interest in children in Theresienstadt, some of it reflected in the article, a section (even a page?) specifically on the children would surely be appreciated by many, including those who use 'I Never Saw Another Butterfly' and 'Brundibar' educationally. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Wilmslow (talk • contribs) 03:16, 6 May 2008 (UTC)

Name
Why is it called concentration camp instead of compulsory deportation ghetto? As far as I know, people have not been killed or murdered there, they have not been "punished" or tortured sadistically, being obliged every morning or evening to stand for hours in order to be counted and things like that.
 * Austerlitz -- 88.72.30.183 10:28, 21 October 2007 (UTC)

"Concentration camp" doesn't mean "death camp". The people were concentrated there, not necessarily exterminated. On the other hand, people indeed were punished, tortured and murdered there. It's only that it wasn't on the industrial scale as in Auschwitz, for example. ...accountless person. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 213.220.223.216 (talk) 18:17, 20 March 2008 (UTC)

It had features of 'Concentration Camp' and features of 'Ghetto', so both terms should be used, with realisation that we are accepting Nazi terminology, itself intended to be mendacious as well as being irredeemably imprecise because of the inherent arbitrariness characteristic of Nazism. So I would write somethin like "... referred to both as a concentration camp and a ghetto", which is factually correct. The Wikipedia page on 'Internment' handles clarification of the terms very well. The Czech name Terezin should be given with its proper accent and I'd appreciate a pronunciation if possible; could both be done by a Czech to get them right? —Preceding unsigned comment added by Wilmslow (talk • contribs) 02:19, 6 May 2008 (UTC)

In Czech, it's written "Terezín", with a "carka" above i. I hope it displays correctly. As for pronounciation, I guess I'd better leave it to someone who actually knows how to upload such thing. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 213.220.223.216 (talk) 12:49, 6 May 2008 (UTC)

How come a holocaust denial site, as http://www.cwporter.com/hoess.htm is listed here at the "links"? The guy is everything but related to history !!! Who can remove this link? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 79.182.10.182 (talk) 15:18, 3 January 2009 (UTC)
 * You fixed it -- thanks! That one slipped by us, obviously -- it was inserted in December of 2007. --jpgordon&#8711;&#8710;&#8711;&#8710; 15:55, 3 January 2009 (UTC)

Created in part for Jewish veterans of World War I?
The article Wannsee Conference states:

"…Heydrich said that to avoid legal and political difficulties, it was important to define who was a Jew for the purposes of "evacuation." He outlined categories of people who would be exempted. Jews over 65 years old, and Jewish World War I veterans alike, who had been severely wounded or who had won the Iron Cross, would be sent to the "model" concentration camp at Theresienstadt. "With this expedient solution", he said, "in one fell swoop many interventions will be prevented." Historian932 (talk) 11:04, 2 July 2008 (UTC)

-- 88.75.223.243 (talk) 13:44, 8 February 2009 (UTC)
 * TEREZIN "Sometimes such differences in political ideologies caused dissent among the population, particularly in the running of the administration and the education of the children. However, these differences were nothing compared to the lines drawn between Czech Jews and German Jews. There was a palpable mistrust between these two groups, as oftentimes the Czech Jews felt the German Jews were imposing on their territory and the German Jews felt superior over the Czech Jews."

Dates confused
Article states that the hoax against the Red Cross visit in June '44 was so successful a propaganda movie was commissioned as a result and filming started in Feb '44. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 81.153.91.10 (talk) 22:27, 25 May 2009 (UTC)

AfD for CD on Terezin Music
Hi ... just fyi, there is an AfD now for consideration of deletion of an article on a CD with the music of Terezin, here.--Epeefleche (talk) 02:07, 18 November 2009 (UTC)

Aditional information about the Czech use of Theresienstadt?
I feel the article is missing a section about its postwar use, in particular about Malá pevnost. This is not a chapter that we should forget and many people interned and mistreated after the war, were not SS or even German. The Czech camp commandant, Alois Prusa, openly told new arrivals, that none would leave Malá pevnost alive. This was not merely a matter of punishing German war criminals, it was part of the ethnic cleansing committed by the Czech against German speaking Czechoslovakians.

I don’t’ mind writing this, but I feel there need to be an agreement with the other authors. Otherwise someone might just delete it. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 87.54.28.70 (talk) 07:26, 6 January 2010 (UTC)

Troubling Sentence
The following sentence shows up twice in the article:

"Murmurstein was as popular in the ghetto as was the SS command."

What it seems to be saying is that it's subject was unpopular, but it is not completely clear and the tone seems facetious. And, as mentioned, it is repeated. Seems like this needs fixing.--Jrm2007 (talk) 05:45, 29 June 2010 (UTC)


 * I have removed this sentence ("Not surprisingly, Murmurstein was as popular in the ghetto as was the SS command"). Its meaning is not clear – is it saying that Murmurstein and the SS command were both equally unpopular (which seems implausible) or that they were both popular (in which case the sentence is presumably facetious and, as such – given the nature of the subject matter – potentially offensive). Moreover, its relevance to the surrounding text is not transparent. Indeed, the whole text under "Differing living conditions for prisoners" could do with a tidy-up. Ondewelle (talk) 09:47, 7 October 2010 (UTC)

Anti-semitic attack
I have implemented a change of the word 'resident' throughout the article to the word 'prisoner', it is an example of what I mean. The emphasis in the article seems to be on how good life was there. As an example, please see the diary of Bernhard Kolb, who was a credible Theresienstadt survivor, at the rijo.de website. . It is there in German; a translation into English will soon be available. User:Navinia (talk) 04:50, 29 July 2010 (UTC)

media not just movies?
I like movies but I think books and music are just as worthy of their own sections as opposed to inclusion in other sections or being placed in "Further reading" below references. 124.170.41.115 (talk) 10:41, 29 March 2012 (UTC)

more information

 * This section had a translation of the German WP article, taking up most of the page. I've collapsed it, but the original article is available via the interwiki link; do we need this as well? Xyl 54 (talk) 17:26, 10 February 2013 (UTC)

Missing Section on the Surgery
There is no section on the surgery. There is no picture of the surgical toolbox.

According to the Independent, "a case of monogrammed surgical instruments that in 1943-44 had been used by SS Maj Anton Burger on the inmates of the notorious Theresienstadt concentration camp" ( http://blogs.independent.co.uk/2012/02/08/would-you-be-willing-to-profit-from-selling-nazi-surgical-equipment/ ) are available on the market.

Wikipedia curators could buy it to document and create a section on it for the Theresienstadt article and then donate it to the Theresienstadt Museum in Theresienstadt. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 186.136.115.197 (talk) 21:07, 8 February 2012 (UTC)

(Redacted; most of this comment was copied verbatim from the blog it cites. Xyl 54 (talk) 15:58, 15 February 2013 (UTC))

Main fortress
I've deleted the "Importatnt information..." section; I can't see what is so important about it, and (as the edit note says) it was a bit propaganda-ey. There was some information about the use of the small fortresss as a prison, so I've kept that ( though it still needs a citation). The division of the town, and therefore the camp, into two parts suggests the article should deal with the two sections separately. The Small fortress/prison already has a section at the end of the article, so I've labelled some of the "History" section as being about the Main fortress/ghetto. I trust I've got it right. Xyl 54 (talk) 17:15, 10 February 2013 (UTC)
 * To the RACIST and delusional person above. I have personally been to Terezin. The fact is as soon as you walk in the the small fortress which was the original part of Terzin. That it's  clearly painted on the entrance in German  "Arbeit macht frei" in English "Work makes you free". Work camp is the correct given name, and Czechoslovakians  were the first Nazi prisoners not Jewish. I have photos of the plaque's on the wall showing what races sent time behind bars. And documents of my visit to Terezin. And I am disgusted by your bad attitude thinking you have a right to slander dead people with your false lie's.  — Preceding unsigned comment added by 110.32.230.230 (talk) 06:22, 2 March 2013 (UTC)


 * I’m unclear what point is being made here. That Theresienstadt was NOT a concentration camp for Jews? That takes us into a very dark (and in some countries illegal) area. If you “personally went to Terezin” and somehow didn’t take in that particular “important fact”, then it isn’t me that’s delusional. And if that’s the message you are trying to peddle here it isn’t me that’s the racist. Xyl 54 (talk) 23:31, 25 April 2013 (UTC)

mportant facts about Terezin or Theresienstadt concentration camp


After the Munich Agreement in September 1938. And following the occupation of the Czech lands in March 1939 with the existing prisons gradually filled up as a result of the Nazi terror, the Prague Gestapo Police prison was set up in the small fortress in 1940. The first inmates arrived on June 14th 1940. By the end of the war 32,000 prisoners of whom 5,000 were women passed through the small fortress. These were primarily Czechs, later other nationals, for instance citizens of the former Soviet Union, Poles, Germans and Yugoslavs. Most of the prisoners were arrested for different sign of resistance to the Nazi regime. The fact is the first people to enter Terezin (The Small Fortress) were Czechoslavakian. The Jewish Getto was not built until 1941. And the correct name is "Work camp" and at the entrance in German it's written Arbeit macht frei " Work makes you free". — Preceding unsigned comment added by 110.32.230.230 (talk) 06:25, 2 March 2013 (UTC)


 * What is so important about thse facts? More to the point, about this particular form of words? They’ve already been added to the article twice, and been rejected as un-necessary, (the information is already in the article) un-encyclopaedic (it reads like a school essay) and un-neutral (Theresienstadt wasn’t just a work camp for Czech dissidents) So, as WP is not a soapbox why should we keep them? Xyl 54 (talk) 23:39, 25 April 2013 (UTC)

READ! https://pdf.yt/d/ofemp0je3flyOk6Y - TEREZIN FACTS https://pdf.yt/d/XoJfGJWuMWusLFZu - MAP OF TEREZIN — Preceding unsigned comment added by 110.32.251.75 (talk) 10:58, 17 January 2015 (UTC)
 * What recommendations do you have for improving the article? --jpgordon:==( o ) 16:36, 17 January 2015 (UTC)

Possible copyright problem
This article has been revised as part of a large-scale clean-up project of multiple article copyright infringement. (See the investigation subpage) Earlier text must not be restored, unless it can be verified to be free of infringement. For legal reasons, Wikipedia cannot accept copyrighted text or images borrowed from other web sites or printed material; such additions must be deleted. Contributors may use sources as a source of information, but not as a source of sentences or phrases. Accordingly, the material may be rewritten, but only if it does not infringe on the copyright of the original or plagiarize from that source. Please see our guideline on non-free text for how to properly implement limited quotations of copyrighted text. Wikipedia takes copyright violations very seriously. Diannaa (talk) 17:01, 1 May 2015 (UTC)

Location
Neither from this article nor the Terezín article was I able to find out whether the camp and town were in the Protectorate of Bohemia and Moravia or in the Reichsgau Sudetenland. Neither article makes any reference to the Theresienstadt concentration camp (except the line Many Jews emigrated after 1939; 8,000 survived at Terezín concentration camp) and I would like to change this. Calistemon (talk) 00:59, 31 March 2016 (UTC)
 * It seems nobody here really knows. The maps I found place it in the Protactorate but right on the border to the Reichsgau. Calistemon (talk) 00:33, 13 April 2016 (UTC)

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Reiser
Why was Arnost Reiser removed from notable people? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2601:647:401:3ed (talk • contribs) 16:11, 23 September 2017 (UTC)
 * He's still there. --jpgordon&#x1d122;&#x1d106; &#x1D110;&#x1d107; 16:27, 23 September 2017 (UTC)

more than half the residents died in 1942 ?
Is it true?Xx236 (talk) 09:57, 20 November 2017 (UTC)

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Propose splitting List of prisoners of Theresienstadt concentration camp
The best quality concentration camp articles, including Auschwitz concentration camp and Mauthausen concentration camp, have a separate article for list of notable inmates. Catrìona (talk) 03:57, 3 August 2018 (UTC)

Split
The Small Fortress and the ghetto were geographically separate (a few kms apart), had different inmate populations and functions, and very few prisoners were transferred from one to the other. The only thing they have in common is the name and general location. So I think it would be appropriate to split off the Small Fortress into a separate article. Name suggestions welcome. Catrìona (talk) 10:56, 20 September 2018 (UTC)


 * The name and logic are faultless, but there's hardly any material here on the Small Fortress, and no citations. If you have suitable materials and sources, then I'd support the split. Chiswick Chap (talk) 20:51, 15 October 2018 (UTC)

A Commons file used on this page has been nominated for deletion
The following Wikimedia Commons file used on this page has been nominated for deletion: Participate in the deletion discussion at the. —Community Tech bot (talk) 00:36, 31 October 2018 (UTC)
 * Shooting 'Film Ghetto Theresienstadt'.jpg

Requested move 20 December 2018

 * The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this section. 

The result of the move request was: consensus to move the page to the proposed title at this time, per the discussion below. Dekimasu よ! 20:32, 9 January 2019 (UTC)

Theresienstadt concentration camp → Theresienstadt ghetto Theresienstadt Ghetto – Sources for this location are split roughly between calling it one of 4 possible names: The German name for the place is "Theresienstadt", "Terezín" is Czech. In the cases of other locations of Nazi persecution, the German name for the place is used, for example Auschwitz vs. Oświęcim.

"Theresienstadt/Terezín concentration camp" is ambiguous because that could refer to this place, to the nearby but unrelated Small Fortress (Theresienstadt), or both (although it usually refers to here because it is better represented in English sources). Although Theresienstadt has features of both camp and ghetto, there has been a tendency to consider it a ghetto in recent years, for example it is in volume 2 (ghettos) of the Encyclopedia of Camps and Ghettos (2012); in 2014, Anna Hájková argued (pg. 52) that prisoners called it a ghetto while they were there, but the survivors branded it a concentration camp in order to fit in with Nazi political prisoners in postwar, Communist-ruled Czechoslovakia. Some other arguments cited is that unlike all other concentration camps, it was not under the auspices of the SS Main Economic and Administrative Office, it had a Judenrat, or Jewish self-administration, and the forced removal of the town's inhabitants in June 1942 paralleled occurrences in other ghettos.

For these reasons, I think the best location for the article is Theresienstadt ghetto (although Terezín ghetto would also be reasonable), and I volunteer to make any changes necessary to this article to fit that standard. Catrìona (talk) 07:28, 20 December 2018 (UTC) --Relisting. Dreamy Jazz 🎷 talk to me &#124; my contributions 11:40, 27 December 2018 (UTC) --Relisting.   SITH   (talk)   14:53, 3 January 2019 (UTC)
 * Oppose. The article refers to it as a hybrid concentration camp and ghetto; the disambiguation page as well as the header of this article point to Small Fortress (which obviously isn't as well known); I think we should stick with the best known nomenclature. --jpgordon&#x1d122;&#x1d106; &#x1D110;&#x1d107; 15:59, 27 December 2018 (UTC)
 * You're entitled to your own opinion, but I'd like to point out, as stated above: 1) "Theresienstadt concentration camp" and "Theresienstadt ghetto" are roughly equal in terms of usage, so "concentration camp" isn't the "best known nomenclature", and 2) some sources do refer to it as a hybrid concentration camp and ghetto, but recent sources have put it in the "ghetto" category. The Encyclopedia of Camps and Ghettos notes that, strictly speaking, it was not a concentration camp because it was not under SS Main Economic and Administrative Office administration. Also, it doesn't make sense to, as I've ended up doing on several articles (such as this one) refer to Theresienstadt as a ghetto but link to the article at "Theresienstadt concentration camp". Catrìona (talk) 19:40, 27 December 2018 (UTC)


 * Comment – I think that both are interchangeable and both are correct. The current is correct, and the new proposed name is correct. I would like to know what the official website of the Terezín camp says and use that to determine this article's name, but it isn't in English. ––Redditaddict69 (talk) (contribs)  18:41, 1 January 2019 (UTC)
 * To answer your question, the Terezín Memorial (official state-funded memorial/museum) calls it the "Terezín Ghetto" on the English version and "Ghetto Terezín" on the Czech version of the site. The Germans called it "Ghetto Theresienstadt" (source). I guess, if we were being consonant with the Wikipedia articles of other Nazi ghettos it should be "Theresienstadt Ghetto", currently a redirect. Catrìona (talk) 21:08, 1 January 2019 (UTC)
 * I must not have seen the english website or that on the Czech. If that is the case, then I do Support the name being changed, as it is the official name from a primary source. ––Redditaddict69 (talk) (contribs)  21:35, 1 January 2019 (UTC)
 * I commend this exchange for its productive collaboration, but we do not necessarily use official titles on Wikipedia and prefer to use the names employed by reliable secondary sources when possible: WP:OFFICIAL. Dekimasu よ! 02:31, 5 January 2019 (UTC)
 * The majority of recent scholarly sources consider that Theresienstadt was a ghetto; see above, or look at the sources cited in the article. buidhe</b> (formerly Catrìona) 03:27, 5 January 2019 (UTC)
 * per WP:COMMONNAME and above comment, I still support this move. ––<b style="color:#3399FF">Redditaddict69</b> <sup style="color:#339900">(talk) <sup style="color:#7F007F">(contribs)  14:48, 5 January 2019 (UTC)


 * Relisting note: please comment below if you are in support of a move, and if so, to which proposal, or if you oppose any move. Many thanks,   SITH   (talk)   14:53, 3 January 2019 (UTC)
 * Support, per WP:COMMONNAME. Also, the presence of a Judenrat makes this closer to a ghetto, than a concentration camp (even though it was indistinguishable from a camp, TBH). K.e.coffman (talk) 07:39, 5 January 2019 (UTC)


 * The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a requested move. <b style="color:red">Please do not modify it.</b> Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page or in a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.

Revert
Hi Buidhe, can you say why you reverted? SarahSV (talk) 21:31, 4 February 2020 (UTC)
 * , you changed Protectorate of Bohemia to Moravia to "occupied Czechoslovakia" even though the former is a more precise term and used by the majority of reliable sources (cf Encyclopedia of Camps and Ghettos). Please get consensus for your changes first. <b style="color: White">b</b><b style="color: White">uidh</b><b style="color: White">e</b> 21:42, 4 February 2020 (UTC)


 * , it's odd to leave out that Theresienstadt was in Czechoslovakia. That's what the area was known as, including by the Czechoslovak government-in-exile. It was Nazi Germany that called it the Protectorate of Bohemia and Moravia. See Expulsion of Germans from Czechoslovakia, not "Expulsion of Germans from the Protectorate of Bohemia and Moravia".


 * You removed German-occupied Czechoslovakia from the lead in October 2018 (leaving an Easter-egg link), and in December 2019 you removed Category:Nazi concentration camps in Czechoslovakia.


 * If you want to add the German and current names, we could say: "Theresienstadt was a hybrid concentration camp and ghetto established by the SS during World War II in the fortress town of Terezín, German-occupied Czechoslovakia (since 1993 the Czech Republic). The Germans called the area the Protectorate of Bohemia and Moravia."


 * A few sources (bold added):


 * Yad Vashem, "Theresienstadt": "(in Czech, Terezin) Ghetto in Czechoslovakia. The Nazis built Theresienstadt in order  to  centralize  the  Jewish  populations of the Protectorate of Bohemia and Moravia  (see also  Bohemia and Moravia, Protectorate  of). Additionally,  certain  categories  of  Jews  from  Germany  and  Western  Europe,  such  as  famous  or  wealthy  Jews,  those  with  special  talents,  and  old  people  were  included   in   the   ghetto."
 * Yad Vashem, "Bohemia and Moravia, Protectorate of": "Western region of  Czechoslovakia, occupied  by  German  troops  on  March  15, 1939 and  declared  by  Adolf  Hitler  to  be  a  German 'protectorate' (a  euphemistic term for a subjugated state) belonging to the Reich."
 * Donald Niewyk and Francis Nicosia, The Columbia Guide to the Holocaust, Columbia University Press, 2000, p. 17: "The Germans made Theresienstadt, a town in occupied Czechoslovakia, into a 'model ghetto' for privileged Jews ..."
 * Samuel Totten, Paul R. Bartrop, Steven L. Jacobs. Dictionary of Genocide: M-Z. Greenwood Press, 2008, p. 420: "Theresienstadt ... Between 1941 and 1945, under the Nazi regime in occupied Czechoslovakia, Theresienstadt was a combination of ghetto and concentration camp for Jews."
 * BBC, "Holocaust survivors mark 60 years", 2005: "Among those watching the film ... was Polish-born Ben Helfgott, 75, who was liberated from the Theresienstadt camp in Czechoslovakia."
 * Norbert Troller, Theresienstadt: Hitler's Gift to the Jews, University of North Carolina Press, 1991, p. 177: "Protektorat: The Nazi term for occupied Czechoslovakia."
 * The Daily Telegraph, "SS guard in court after 56 years on the run", 2001: "Anton Malloth, 89, a former overseer at the Theresienstadt camp in Nazi-occupied Czechoslovakia, is charged with murder ..."
 * The Manchester Guardian, "Children in war's wake", 6 September 1945, p. 5: "children from Theresienstadt, a notorious concentration camp in Czechoslovakia."
 * The Times, "Obituaries: Viktor Frankl", 30 September 1997, p. 21: Viktor Frankl and his family were "sent first to the Theresienstadt concentration camp in Czechoslovakia."
 * SarahSV (talk) 19:49, 5 February 2020 (UTC); added four 00:32, 6 February 2020 (UTC)
 * , I don't see how any of these sources disprove the claim that I was making—that the majority of sources describe Theresienstadt as being located in the Protectorate. Of course the Protectorate was formed from former Czechoslovak territory, no one disputes that. And perhaps it's even relevant to mention in the lede (I added a mention of such), although I dislike having a grab bag of historical locations which detracts from the actual content. Reference to the expulsion of Germans is odd, of course that happened after the Allied forces had reestablished control of the territory.
 * Books like The Greater German Reich and the Jews: Nazi Persecution Policies in the Annexed Territories 1935–1945 have separate sections for Sudetenland and the Protectorate. You will not find many books about the Holocaust in Czechoslovakia per se because the country was partitioned and events occurred in very different ways in each of the four blocs (Sudetenland, Protectorate, Slovakia, and Hungary). <b style="color: White">b</b><b style="color: White">uidh</b><b style="color: White">e</b> 23:23, 5 February 2020 (UTC)
 * The article doesn't belong in Category:Nazi concentration camps in Czechoslovakia because, although it had aspects of a concentration camp, it was not part of the concentration camp system. Indeed, that category should probably go because the concentration camps are not described as such in the predominance of reliable sources. <b style="color: White">b</b><b style="color: White">uidh</b><b style="color: White">e</b> 23:31, 5 February 2020 (UTC)
 * This article is for the general reader, not for scholars. Our readers are likely to have heard of Czechoslovakia. They won't have heard of the Protectorate of Bohemia and Moravia; we might as well place it on Mars. The world (obviously) didn't accept Hitler's redrawing of the borders, and the lead must make clear that the "protectorate" was a Nazi construct. As for it not belonging in the cat, it was a concentration camp and it was in Czechoslovakia no matter what Hitler said. SarahSV (talk) 00:49, 6 February 2020 (UTC)
 * This article is for the general reader, not for scholars. Our readers are likely to have heard of Czechoslovakia. They won't have heard of the Protectorate of Bohemia and Moravia; we might as well place it on Mars. The world (obviously) didn't accept Hitler's redrawing of the borders, and the lead must make clear that the "protectorate" was a Nazi construct. As for it not belonging in the cat, it was a concentration camp and it was in Czechoslovakia no matter what Hitler said. SarahSV (talk) 00:49, 6 February 2020 (UTC)


 * no matter what Hitler said Of course you're welcome to your own opinion, but I always try to write articles as precisely and historically accurate as possible, not according to who I wish was in charge at the time. It was indeed very significant to the ghetto's history that it was in the Protectorate; the majority of its prisoners came from there and not from Slovakia, Sudetenland, or anywhere else. There were no ghettos in Slovakia or Sudetenland, there were in Carpathian Ruthenia but those were under Hungarian administration. Naturally there are reliable sources that say "occupied Czechoslovakia" especially if they are journalistic or brief references. But contrary to what is claimed above, Protectorate ≠ "occupied Czechoslovakia" because Sudetenland, and later Slovakia and Hungary, were also occupied by Germany. The article's lede as it stands clearly explains that the Protectorate was a German-occupied region of Czechoslovakia for readers unfamiliar with the term. As for "Nazi concentration camp", Theresienstadt was never subordinated to the IKL so it was not part of the Nazi concentration camp system. <b style="color: White">b</b><b style="color: White">uidh</b><b style="color: White">e</b> 02:55, 6 February 2020 (UTC)

number of prisoners
There's a discrepancy between the number who went to Theresienstadt (144,000) and the article's account of their fates: 33,000 died at Theresienstadt; 88,000 were sent to death camps (4,000 survived); (23,000 survivors total minus the 4,000 survivors from the death camp transports is) 19,000 who survived Theresienstad without facing the death camps = 140,000 Can someone resolve this discrepancy? 77.165.172.29 (talk) 10:22, 22 May 2020 (UTC)

Wiki Education Foundation-supported course assignment
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Above undated message substituted from Template:Dashboard.wikiedu.org assignment by PrimeBOT (talk) 11:16, 17 January 2022 (UTC)

"Theresienstadt was a hybrid of ghetto and concentration camp"
Such information should be included into the lead and Categories, if it is sourced. Is the name correct? Xx236 (talk) 07:05, 29 August 2022 (UTC)