Talk:Thermcon

Untitled
My edits were just an attempt to remove some weasel words in the interest of NPOV.

In addition, I removed the second half of the last paragraph:

''Bari and Cherney, Californian Earth First! activists who were not involved with or directly targeted by THERMCON, later speculated that the operation was an attempt to link Earth First! to the use of explosives prior to the 1990 car bomb explosion which severely injured Bari on the eve of the “Redwood Summer" campaign of civil disobedience.''

I simply do not understand it. Who injured this Bari person? How is that incident related to this one?

Paul, in Saudi 04:30, 12 October 2005 (UTC)


 * Bari (first name Judy or Judi?) was the victim of a car bombing in 1990 while she was organizing anti-logging protests in California. She wasn't related to this (THERMCON) at all which was a late 1980s operation in Arizona.  If somebody can find a direct quote from Bari it might be relevant to this article (check her book - Timber Wars I think it is called, I don't have a copy.)  But it should be a direct quote, not just an unsourced "Bari and Cherney...speculated" entry.  70.108.47.157 12:38, 27 May 2006 (UTC)


 * I agree. Neither Bari nor Cherney were involved in either EMETIC or THERMCON. If she mentioned it in her book or speeches, it was only to boost her own image. I met Darrel Cherney at the 1988 Round River Rendezvous (RRR) near Republic, WA. I would describe him as a small-time minstrel who attached himself to celebrities-of-the-hour. I never met Bari. I believe that all this confusion was generated in an effort to focus attention on Bari's injuries. --Victor Stilson 21:49, 24 September 2006 (UTC)

merge
THERMCON and Evan Mecham Eco-Terrorist International Conspiracy are two different aspects of the same series of events in Arizona in the late 80s, and they are both stub articles that don't reference the other name. How about merging the two into one article? 70.108.47.157 12:32, 27 May 2006 (UTC)

The two articles are both slanted as written. THERMCON is slanted against the FBI; Evan Mecham Eco-Terrorist International Conspiracy is slanted against the activists and doesn't mention that the alleged nuclear power plant sabotage was instigated by agent provacateur Michael Fain/Mike Tait. We need a single neutral and more comprehensive article. 70.108.47.157 12:48, 27 May 2006 (UTC)


 * While I agree that both articles appear to be describing different aspects of the same events, a merge may not produce the result that you desire. The problem is Verifiability requires that information be supported by reliable sources.  The Evan Mecham Eco-Terrorist International Conspiracy lists its sources, and thus does not have any problems meeting the requirements of this core content policy (the perceived pro-FBI slant is a result of adhering to these sources).  The THERMCON however appears to be built primarily from personal knowledge, and the closest thing to a reference are the three external links where two of the links are self-published sources and the third link is dead.  Before a merge is performed appropriate sources should be found for the THERMCON article or else the merged article will soon look very much like the current EMETIC article as all the unreferenced material is removed to comply with Wikipedia policy.  Jester  01:25, 28 May 2006 (UTC)


 * I can help with the rewrite and sources but I'll have to dig the sources up at a visit to the library sometime soon. The book Coyotes and Town Dogs by Susan Zakin and the SPIN magazine article below are good neutral sources, and the Zakin book covered the entire incident in detail.  I don't have either one handy.  I agree that the self-published material on the web from political activist websites is not a reliable source.  It's highly POV and sometimes hysterical and conspiratorial in its analysis.  In particular, Judi Bari thought the incident was a practice run to discredit her early 1990s work in California.  There are a lot of articles floating around on the web from extreme-left sources like Indymedia taking the same line.  Unfortunately that is what people searching the web on this are going to find right now.  On the other side, material from wise use movement sources are just as POV and just as bad.  We need a good, comprehensive, neutral article.  What do you think about the name for the article?  Evan Mecham Eco-Terrorist International Conspiracy, THERMCON, or something else?  Separate articles or merge? 70.108.139.153 15:15, 31 May 2006 (UTC)


 * I suspect that readers would be better served by a single article that covers as many different aspects of the topic as possible, so a merge of the articles makes sense. Beyond this, I am unsure which is the better name for the article.  I have seen nothing to indicate that either name is better known by the general public, so the most common name determiniation does not seem overly viable. Ultimately I do not think he article name is as important as having a well writen article lead to address potential confusion over the inevitable redirect.  Jester  12:46, 5 June 2006 (UTC)

re: merging these two articles: I agree that this is appropriate and will help to clarify the confusion with Bari's case, which is entirely separate, since Bari and Cherney had nothing to do with the Arizona group. I have extensive documentation and would like to assist in providing details. My documentation is entirely derived from court documents relating to the FBI Investigation. I feel that this POV will assist in presenting a more neutral article than it is now. While there may be some evidence of FBI "grey-area" tampering, I feel that the fact that the conspirators all plead guilty speaks to a broader issue. When I find the time, I will try to provide a detailed chronology of events during the investigation in order to allow readers to draw their own conclusions. Fair reporting is the first step towards historical judgement. More later, Victor Stilson.


 * I would like to collaborate in the discussion and merging of these two articles. My name is Ronald Frazier, I wrote the previous comment signed "Victor Stilson". This alias derives from a nom-de-guerre that I adopted at the 1988 Round River Rendezvous during the infamous Ed Abbey speech, when I announced a Diesel Workshop the following day. When asked my name, I gave the common name for a monkey-wrench, "Stilson". The other part of the alias derives from my stint as a Confidential Informant for the FBI, when they asked me for a codename when calling the office in Phoenix, one agent suggested "Torch". (the investigation was then focused on the acetylene torch damage of the Flagstaff Ski area) This sounded so "corny" that I immediately adopted the brandname of my favorite metal sculpture torch: a "Victor" 110. While media sources are readily available (with, perhaps the exception of the afore-mentioned "SPIN" article) they are clearly derivative works and do not penetrate to the core of the matter. As an individual directly involved with the investigation into the activities of EMETIC, Earth First! and Radical Anti-Nuke elements, I propose to work directly with the editors of both articles in order to produce a HQ/NPOV article. If this is acceptable, please post some means of contact here. (At that time, I will answer questions and clarify any distortions/mis-perceptions to the best of my ability. I do not pretend to be able to write an unbiased report, myself: I was far too involved personally and professionally to gain a purely objective POV and I hope that this Wiki will provide me with a perspective/reference for myself.) -Victor Stilson 17:23, 25 September 2006 (UTC)

Since the merge proposal and this discussion haven't moved in months, I'm going to take the initiative and merge the Evan Mecham Eco-Terrorist International Conspiracy article into the THERMCON article and mark it for cleanup. -- DSGruss 19:30, 28 March 2007 (UTC)

possible references
If somebody can locate the article in an old issue of Spin (magazine), the article "Raising Arizona" from a 1989 issue (July or August?) of SPIN is a very good - and fairly neutral - article that would make a good reference. The article is not online, or at least I can't find it. 70.108.47.157 12:51, 27 May 2006 (UTC)

Why is there a redirect?
Why is there a redirect on the first two references for this article to the National Consortium for the Study of Terrorism and Responses to Terrorism, a U.S. Department of Homeland Security Center of Excellence? Mervyn Emrys (talk) 20:50, 16 December 2011 (UTC)
 * Interesting question. These are the two URLs that you are referring to:
 * http://www.tkb.org/documents/Cases/89-CR-192-Motion-2.pdf
 * http://www.tkb.org/CaseHome.jsp?caseid=295
 * They both redirect to the following URL:
 * http://www.start.umd.edu/start/
 * The original links were to the server of the MIPT Terrorism Knowledge Base, a project that ended in March 2008. Its home page at http://www.tkb.org/ says "TKB ... is currently unavailable", and does so in an extremely unprofessional style (black on green). It appears that every other URL on that site is redirected to the same URL: The homepage of the National Consortium for the Study of Terrorism and Responses to Terrorism. Our MIPT TKB article says that the content of the TKB is now hosted by START, so the redirect makes sense. Apparently they have changed the site structure as well. (Or they just made a mistake when setting up the redirects.) Therefore we will have to check for every link individually whether the information is available on the new site, and where. Given that the TKB has a robots.txt file that prevented archiving at the Internet Archive, this may prove tricky, as it's not even clear what we are looking for. Hans Adler 21:30, 16 December 2011 (UTC)


 * I think I have partially solved the problem. The TKB, or at least part of it, is available on the START website under http://www.start.umd.edu/start/data_collections/tops/ (Terrorist Organization Profiles, TOPs). Here I searched for "Evan Mecham", as our article says the group called themselves after that person. I found this. I guess this is equivalent to the second of the URLs above. I don't know if the first is still available. Hans Adler 21:38, 16 December 2011 (UTC)