Talk:Theta Nu Epsilon/Archive 1

Verification Method Needed
I suggest that links to authentic documentation must be provided here on the talk page before posting any chapter founded after WWI. There have been too many unofficial and unrecognized groups operating to allow post WWI content to go unchecked. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by USER NAME OR IP (talk • contribs).

Persistent Problem Poster from Purdue
This article and several others have been vandalized by a problem editor who repeatedly asserts some special significance for the Purdue Chapter of Theta Nu Epsilon. These posts have also included an extended and bogus article on the "Order of Skull & Crescent", a Sophomore society at Purdue, some high school in the Midwest, (Illinois ?), extended fantasy postings regarding one Italian family (formerly of the Italian peerage), and other postings of similar quality. In this article, the same poster makes claims regarding some behind the scenes transmission of great and arcane secrets from Skull & Bones at Yale to Purdue. All of these postings had to be deleted in the Summer of 2007. This poster can, naturally, not provide for citations for any of his material, except for internet cites that never support his claims. This poster has not been banned, but perhaps this page needs to be blocked.

If any claims are made in the article about Purdue or Skull & Bones, please disregard them.


 * Alpha Nonsense This is a bunch of nonsense promoted by the upstart Alpha chapter of Wesleyan- that wishes to disregard Purdue as the Indiana Alpha when even in their own records lists it as such on their current website. Moreover, there is still a sophmore order of skull and crescent existing today at Purdue if you check the school's website, as well as indicated within your own records still listed on YOUR website. I also never posted anything pertaining to those other topics listed by this person. IP's on a public computer can be used by many different people, and you better be very careful about making false accusations about people. I'm also curious if you will even try to remove the fact that the current Alpha is nothing more than an upstart, with no real proof of knowing anything authentic about Theta Nu Epsilon. Moreover, where is the verifiable proof about Taft and other Presidents being part of your group. You are the one that wishes to inflate TNE into something bigger than it is or ever was. It was never at the level of a senior secret society, nor was it ever a carbon copy chapter of Skull and Bones. Purdue's group saw it for what it was useful for- nothing more than an undergraduate's introduction to how a senior society may function like. TNE was nothing more than an undergraduate prep society to introduce an individual to what a functioning senior society may be like later on.             —Preceding unsigned comment added by 65.141.157.59 (talk) 21:36, 28 January 2008 (UTC)


 * Just what I thought, cowardly Alphas trying to remove the fact about credibility issues as proved by user 159.247.3.210


 * First, it will be returned because it is the truth, and second stop spreading BS about Purdue's Order of Skull and Crescent. First you say it didn't exist. Now you say, oh yeah it does, but it replaced Purdue's chapter of TNE. Wrong across the board. Purdue stopped allowing secret societies to function publicly during the 90's becuse there was no governing body over them on campus, unlike the greek systenm of fraternities. Moreover, Purdue's Skull and Cresent that you are talking about became an honor society, not a replacement for the TNE chapter. Get lost with your cover up to promote the Alpha's agenda! Your chapter is as illegitimate as they come. I'm going to now test you! You have the TNE engarvings posted on your website, there is words in code on those engravings tell me something about that that would prove to me that you have any real knowledge of the secrets of TNE's society- I'm very curious to here what you have to say!!! You were the ones that were previously behind screeming "hoax hoax" to anything Purdue oriented because it took your chapters thunder away- that is all that it was. There was no hoax about that group. The writer did a pretty good job to assemble available infomation about them that was an excellent starting point for the article. He just confused some hear say with facts- but it was no hoax at all. He also was confused about the order's link in West Lafayette, Indiana- that's all.     —Preceding unsigned comment added by 65.141.157.59 (talk) 22:19, 28 January 2008 (UTC)


 * Well' I see you can't answer the challenge proposed above. So, I tell you what I am going to do. First off, in the manner of brother love, since I honestly believe that you are tying to work desperately to keep TNE's idea alive- I don't really care much, nor have the time to waste, with bickering and stupidity. I have made some rephrasing to the page's listing that I believe is object and fair. I think it is honest to say that the current Alpha chapter still has much work to do in order to revive the former image of the group without going so far as to say there is credibility or legitimacy probs. Second, stop being so insecure, no other chapter, not even Indiana alpha is trying or wants to run the current National Organization- relax, it's your gig fellas- you don't have to desperately try to put down Purdue. Take care little devils!

The Alpha Chapter at Wesleyan has all the original documents of the society, including several documents specially executed by the founders to identify their verifiable successors. The Alpha Chapter, being the first and universally recognized founder chapter of the society is not, nor can it be, an upstart. The papers of the last Baird's Manual recognized national of the 1930's and 40's have also been committed to the Alpha Chapter, and that body's president, who was named an Honorary National President by the Alpha Chapter, united those two historical traditions. The Alpha Chapter's position is unquestioned by the Wesleyan community, the Wesleyan administration, and it's duration can be demonstrated through yearbook entries, etc. It is also accepted as such by every known living chapter of the society, both chapters associated in the national and those still independent. The Alpha Chapter has no apologies to make.4.245.242.179 (talk) 03:26, 29 January 2008 (UTC)

The Purdue poster is not serious. One of his cites this Summer, trying to prove that his Purdue Skull & Crescent contained valuable secrets of the American Presidency, was to a letter that just happened to be available on ebay. (What a coincidence, he needs a cite, and there it is on ebay!) Funny also that his great secret of Purdue was from the Hollywood plotline for National Treasure. This person is not some serious, deep researcher who has gone horribly astray, he's some kid fooling around with not much of a sense of humor. Don't feel sorry for him, he knows that his posts are confusing gibberish. he's got nothing to do and is trying to get a rise out of people. Pathetic, really. Doesn't he know it's the Girl Scouts with all the alchemical talmudic secrets, and they practice ungodly ceremonies to their interplanetary God in Area 51? That's where the secret society action is.129.133.124.252 (talk) 04:15, 29 January 2008 (UTC)

Nonsense
Someone added this: I believe in the Brotherhood of Man, in the Strength of Human Will, the Mystery of Fraternity, the Redemption of All Things by Intelligent Effort and the Message of Truth that has made the Bonds of Theta Nu Epsilon Eternal.

and called it "Credo".

Thsi has nothing to do with Theta Nu Epsilon, is a ridiculous combination of meaningless words, and has nothing to do with the history or desctiption of Theta Nu Epsilon. So it was deleted. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by USER NAME OR IP (talk • contribs).


 * If it has nothing to do with the Society, then I'm sure that's why it can be found in many of the old issues of the Theta Nu Epsilon Quarterly. Krusophalax 17:25, 5 May 2007 (UTC)


 * I assume you mean the "Keys", not the "Quarterly." Cite the minutes of a national convention where it was officially adopted. It certainly is not adopted by the national now. There is no so called "Credo" associated with Theta Nu Epsilon. I don't think any members of established legitimate chapters would recognize this chance paragraph as representing anything to do with the society. And, regardless, that bit of doggerel has nothing to do with an article explaining the history of the society because it explains nothing —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 129.133.124.183 (talk • contribs).


 * That particular creed was written by Gordon Case - a 1908 graduate of Yale who was a member of Lambda Sigma chapter. He also went on to become an officer of the United National, and he was editor of the Theta Nu Epsilon Quarterly.  Keep in mind, TNE had several nationals claiming control over the Society at any given time; however, the United National, at the time, was the legitimate body that assumed control after Alpha ceased to function as a governing and chapter granting body in 1907. "Keys" may have been a publication of another major national organization or by Alpha. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Krusophalax (talk • contribs).


 * I know who it was written by, I have the original. It was not adopted by any convention. It does not have any official status. It was printed on the back of "The Keys" which was the publication of the United National and was a successor publication to both "The Sophomore of Theta Nu Epsilon" and "The Theta Nu Epsilon Quarterly." —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 129.133.124.199 (talk • contribs).

I have asked around and the "Alpha" chapter website is not connected to the real chapter nor does it have the power to grant charters. I am not in the loop of that school but I want to say this is just a big fan of TNE.

Iamcarter (talk) 06:58, 25 November 2007 (UTC)

More lies from Purdue.

Founding Date
Someone keeps changing the founding date to December 5 from December 11. What is the reason for this change? Nearly all historic documentation points to December 11, including information found on the web. Krusophalax

Look, you don't know what you're talking about with any of this. You keep screwing up the chapter list without understanding what you're doing.

Relax.

Go home.

(Oh, and thanks for adding the box. It looks alright.) —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 129.133.124.183 (talk • contribs).

"Someone keeps changing the founding date to December 5" Founders Day is December 5th. Everything was finished on the 11th but the day noted as founder's day is the 5th so that should be the founding date. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Iamcarter (talk • contribs) 07:04, 25 November 2007 (UTC)

x Not to get into the middle of a minor squabble and NOT FORGETTING DISCUSSION OF SOCIETY AFFAIRS but as long as it is out there might as well keep it correct. Dec. 5th is the date for everything in our records and our century old original const.; it is what we have kept to. Maybe 12/11/? was the formation of one of the factional groups? If so I respect that but it would help to clarify and add that in its proper area. We have the original documents that we keep to but it might help to compare notes, and see if these fellows want help if they have a functioning chapter or are starting one. Obviously the fellow knows what one officer is. Good luck- thetanuepsilon at alumnidirector dot com x

THE original papers say December 11, sworn affidavits of the founders prepared decades later say December 11. December 5 was never correct. Let it go. ---Writing from Middletown. 129.133.124.252 (talk) 01:40, 17 December 2007 (UTC)

Here the Purdue poster has tried to fake that he's from Middletown.129.133.124.252 (talk) 04:19, 29 January 2008 (UTC)


 * I'm a little curious about the differences in the founding date myself. I've seen society documents that point to both dates, but it's hard for me to tell which documents are even legitimate.  Can anyone provide any insight into why some documents point to the December 5 date and others suggest the December 11 date?  I'm not arguing for either one at this point.  I'm just curious if anyone can provide an explanation. BlueGold73 (talk) 00:08, 24 July 2008 (UTC)

The National Organization
Some suggest that the National Organization does not represent all chapters. The truth is that, as far as anyone knows, the National Organization does in fact represent all chapters that exist and that operate under the name Theta Nu Epsilon. Organizations at Berkeley, Hamilton, Rutgers, and Nashville, for example, which clearly were formerly chapters do not operate as chapters of Theta Nu Epsilon. There are several universities that have defunct chapters which still have alumni members, but no undergraduates that actually meet as a chapter, (NYU and Purdue). The organization at Alabama is a closer call, but given the complex situation there, (that I am not going to go into here), they, too, can be said to not be operating under the Theta Nu Epsilon name. Therefore, it would be technically correct to say that ALL active chapters of Theta Nu Epsilon are a part of the National Organization. Even so, we are not going to insist on that, and will allow for the sensitivities of others and allow for the possibilities of unknown organizations. However, whatever phrasing is used, the truth of the situation would require that most, if not all, active chapters of Theta Nu Epsilon are a part of the National Organization.

The article as it was previously worded did cover that situation.129.133.124.199 23:36, 27 June 2007 (UTC)

x   Re above debate: Obviously there is disagreement but I don't see the wording as problematic as it is. Several chapters meet and the work under an independent coordinating organization that we call a national organization. We understand we are not the sole group claimants to this position.

As for independents, I am not going to call Alabama, Purdue, Kansas, Nebraska or any group that exists (and there are quite a number) "illegitimate" that use Theta Nu Epsilon. The same thing holds for other groups that do not publicly use the initials but have TNE origin. Legitimacy is in the eye of the beholder. I cannot condemn political activism and attempts at coordinating leadership as wrong but I respect the position of those that oppose it.

It is also a matter of function. We function independently and work with several others that do the same. The nature of Theta Nu Epsilon is as a secret society so there is very little to base characterizations on. I think what is needed is greater cooperation rather than condemnation.

With an equally intense desire we maintain an active interest and strive to foster better understanding. We should keep ever uppermost in our mind the aim of the organization. Just don't ask what the aim is! ;o) - thetanuepsilon @ alumnidirector dot com x

Doesn't anyone notice that here the Purdue poster has tried to fake a return address? What an obvious lie!129.133.124.252 (talk) 04:18, 29 January 2008 (UTC)

x "A "fake return address" was not addressed to us right? Because neither am I sure of what a return address is outside of something placed on an envelope nor do I have ANYTHING to do with Purdue.  They may be ok, I just don't know anything about them.  The email account is valid so??? That aside I just want to reiterate that TNE Upsilon Upsilon NYU is still going on (including as an undergraduate institution).  I also wanted to state that while we have no problems with anyone's efforts to draw us together there is clearly a dishonest effort not simply to claim or usurp the position of a "sole national coordinating body" but also to act as the arbiter of every other chapter's validity and to make rules on what chapters can and can't do.

I won't question the validity of the "wanna be chiefs", even those with a date discrepancy of the founding (something besides 12/5) and a break in the continuity of campus and alumni chapters. Conversely, there are a bunch of guys out there that have contacted us as a TNE chapter don't even know what TNE stands for (no, not just Theta Nu Epsilon). Rather than sniping in a public forum as some do, or faking when they really have a group that wants to affiliate, let's determine what's what as the first step to regularity. Too bad you can't write some of the "calculus" on the comments or I'd tell you a time and place to meet if your wanted to settle this! lol Seriously guys, if you have a group let's look for ways to be cooperative. We've had success with that. And interested groups- contact us and we'll tell you what's up. Regards UUx —Preceding unsigned comment added by 74.68.115.155 (talk) 23:40, 7 March 2008 (UTC)

Administrator "Jossi" does not know what he is doing
The page is locked. Brilliant. Let's see if it's possible to reconstruct the series of events. first, back in July a series of posters from the same IP, 65.54.98.xxx, all start posting fantastic stories about the Purdue chapter of Theta Nu Epsilon. The wild stories that spread across a half-dozen articles are eventually spotted for what they are, and all of that is deleted. (I was happy to ba a part of that, no need to thank me.) A new series of wild purdue-based stories recurrs here in September, again from the same in, 65.54.98.xxx, and also involving the Purdue chapter. No doubt, it's just a stunning coincidence.

The posts above on 21:05, 25 September 2007 01:20, 26 September 2007 are clearly by the same person masquerading as two people and both defend the same silly Yale/Purdue link that never existed.

Naturally, when now-apparently-innocent Bfigura blundered in to defend the wild stories, I assumed that he was another sock puppet.

I tried to call foul about this, but I refuse to create an account here, in part out of sheer protest of the weird social system that is developing in wikipedia. (About which I could go on at length, but won't.)

At this point, quasi-admin Jossi also blunders into the article and instead of looking at the obvious frauds being perpetuated by a crackpot, ends up trying to make some point about references and/or citation.

Let me be clear. First: simply going to the discussion page or making a comment when changing an article that says "See WP:V" or "See WP:Cite" is not a rational or reasonable comment. That is not an argument, that is not a point in a discussion. If you cannot clearly state what your objection is, then you are not being constructive, you are not helping, you are not, really, even saying anything. A lot of people have an idea that writing "See WP:Cite" is some sort of intelligent comment, but it is meaningless. I could delete half of every article at random and then write "See WP:Cite" as a justification, and it would be meaningless.

Second: writing "See WP:Cite" in this instance is particularly meaningless in this instance since this article is about as well cited as most of the articles in wikipedia, and better cited than most. Most of the history is cited to the history of the society found on their own webpage and in articles available online from several university libraries. ---And that covers 80% of this wikipedia article.

Thsi "Jossi" person has seen fit to get this page locked, BUT HAS NOT SHOWN HOW ANY OF THE ARTICLE IS IN CONFLICT WITH ANY WIKIPEDIA POLICY. If he, (I assume he), wants to have factual claims deleted if not verified, then his "See WP:V" or "See WP:Cite" claims should be deleted if they cannot be verified. There is no backup he has given for any of his lack of verifiability claims. ---As it stands, I cannot even engage these unreasonable claims of Jossi's, because he does not show any violation of anything.

This is not discussion, this is not reasonable, this is not constructive, I do not know on what grounds this person can even make claims to being an admin. As far as I can tell, he knows nothing about the policies he claims to be enforcing. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 129.133.124.199 (talk • contribs)

Sources are needed
The article has been without sources for three months, so I have removed most of the content. We need sources to support all material in WIkipedia articles, and having only primary sources (i.e. the fraternity websites) is not sufficient. Applicable policies: WP:V, WP:NPOV; also see WP:NOTABILITY. Editors wanting to keep the material (which can be found in the article history) should endeavor in supporting the material with proper sources. ≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 03:16, 2 December 2007 (UTC)

Cutting out info based on "verified" sources?
Thats bullshit. Its a secret society! Just because we don't have Verifiable information on Santa claus, doesnt mean that we dont have an article on him.

I suggest that if you want to do a fact-bulletproofing Exercise, how about you make a section in the article titled "verified facts". —Preceding unsigned comment added by 129.93.158.241 (talk) 23:48, 13 December 2007 (UTC)

There has never been a wikipedia policy of delete everything first and then let things in only when some sort of standard for citation has been met. That's not how things work here, and people who think it does need to re-read the policies they are attempting to enforce. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 129.133.127.55 (talk) 04:47, 14 December 2007 (UTC)

This article is being used as part of the agenda of the current Wesleyan Upstart
I am disturbed by Wikipedia's tolerance of allowing the Alpha upstart to control this page. They were behind the rumor of fueling a Purdue hoax which is not true- rumors that had a negative impact on several articles. They also removed fully documented sources that specifically states that they are the 'least secretly acting society' on their campus. Moreover, it is a known fact that they are an upstart. The only agenda that is occuring with this article is coming from Wesleyan's current outfit who is fearful that they are not going to be perceived as the authentic controlling National Organization. They have insecurities about their own legitimacy. That is why they have always had it out irrationally for Purdue who was the "Indiana Alpha". But if this upstart really knew anything about TNE's true history, they would know that they really had nothing to fear about Purdue's group since Purdue's group never acted as a National Organization nor even wanted to. As the previous contributions stated, Purdue's sophmore group was completely unique within TNE- in actuallity, they were their own special sophmore society directly inspired from Yale and just took on the TNE name and logo to make it understood that their secret society was a 'sophmore' secret society. The only sophmore society at the time was TNE- hence the use of the logo and name that was agreed upon by Wesylean's original and true Alpha during the 19th century. Consequenly, Purdue's group was always an Alpha because Wesylan's true Alpha agreed that Purdue TNE was a unique society that should continue to autonomously govern their own group. TNE was never a well unified fraternity under one leadership or even under one specific model. For example, the photo of the group on the page right now is very strange- most groups did not dress in hooded clothing- this is an idiosycracy of that particular chapter. Moreover, Purdue's chapter maintained a strict 15 member group like Skull and Bones, rules that other chapters did not subscribe to and there are also other differences, most notably The Machine which functions in a rather distasteful manner. It is time for the current Wesleyan upstart to stop removing anthing that doesn't support the agenda that their group has in mind- they have their on webpage to do that with. It is also time to get real about TNE's history. The only thing that really unified all the chapters is that they all were to be sophmore secret societies- they all used the logo and TNE name to indicate that, and nothing more. There never was a well unified group controlled by a single Alpha- a fantasy that Wesleyan's curent upstart want to perpetuate. If this is a page about TNE in general, then it should include infomation about all groups using the TNE name and logo. If the current Alpha upstart wants to just include info about Weslyan's Alpha they shoud create their own page labled "Theta Nu Epsilon (Alpha), or I would be more than happy to create a page labled Theta Nu Epsilon (Indiana Alpha), but I am sure that if I did that Wes' group would become hysterical and start crying "hoax" again. I can even verify that Purdue's senior secret society had a collegiate order of death attached to it.

Purdue alumni never had anything against the current Alpha group and was always surprised that they were so offended by a fuller picture of TNE history. It was only after they became so insecure about their legitimacy and so distructful towards other articles that the current Alpha was viewed so distastefully. Also, Purdue's alumni did not want to be associated with the Wes outfit not out of arrogance, but simply because never in the history of TNE did Purdue share openly the workings of their chapter- as said before- Purdue TNE was a unique society in itself that only used the TNE logo and name early on to give its group a sophmore identity as agreed upon by Wesleyan's original Alpha. This is the real TNE history!

Irrational. I don't even read these paragraphs anymore. You just skim for Purdue and you don't have to bother.129.133.124.252 (talk) 04:21, 29 January 2008 (UTC)

Do not allow the Alpha's agenda to removed verifiably sourced information because it does not suit their agenda
There is no doubt that there are issues surrounding TNE today- a relevant section (not even added by me). The section also has fully verifiable information in it that allows a person to have a fully complete picture to acces their own idea about the group. Stop your fascist ways by trying to control information on a site that is meant to be a democracy. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 65.141.156.118 (talk) 04:00, 29 January 2008 (UTC)

It was cited to an undergrad blog. That isn't a cite. Get a life.129.133.124.252 (talk) 04:16, 29 January 2008 (UTC)


 * And I guess Purdue being labled as an "Indiana Alpha" connected to their own university society of "Skull and Crescent", verifiable even within your own website based on official records is something that I am making up. There is no excuse to remove any cited Purdue info, except for your own irrational issues about the group. Get real! —Preceding unsigned comment added by 65.141.156.118 (talk) 04:23, 29 January 2008 (UTC)

NPOV
There are serious POV issues with this page that need to be resolved. It's likely that it will have to remain protected for a while, so please discuss how to fix it here, along with proposed changes that are backed up by reliable sources Triona (talk) 06:43, 29 January 2008 (UTC)

The Purdue Case
This Theta Nu Epsilon page as well as the current Alpha group has caused serious problems not only to TNE's history but also to several articles across Wikipedia. The Wesleyan group have completely controlled this page to suit their own agenda as if it was their private website for the Alpha chapter. Moreover, their screaming of hoax has also ruined the good work of several just editors. I do not have an account- nor does anyone here have an account- becasue there are several editors using the same public computer at Purdue. Not eveything that has a shared IP is by the same editor- and unfortunately this has damaged excellent articles written by some of the editors here because of the Alpha's nonsense of continually screaming hoax.

Now, to focus on this article specifically, from the very start the Purdue group has requested only one small mention of their group on the page. To list them as Indiana Alpha, which they rightfully are, to place the proper founding date which is 1882, and to note the group's autonomous connection to their own society of Skull and Crescent.

Now, if we wanted to, we can go into a full blown out history of the group, and I would be more than happy to create a TNE (Indiana Alpha) page in the same manner that The Machine has their own page, but I know that it is a waste of time since TNE Alpha will scream hoax again and we are back to the same issues all over again.

Now, it is completely verifiable even within TNE Alpha's website based on TNE records that Purdue's chapter was labled Indiana Alpha and it is connected to their own group Skull and Crescent. Anyone can even go to the the TNE webpage and check Purdue's chapter listing as such. There is no reasonable justification to keep stating that Indiana Alpha and Skull and Crescent is a hoax, but TNE Alphas continue to do that because they just don't like the idea of someone else being labled an Alpha- becasue of insecurities they have about their own group which is an upstart. Now I tried to explain more clearly the nature of Purdue's group a number of times, but they don't want to accept that because 1, they don't like the idea of another alpha and 2) they want to believe that they had some exclusive and unique relationship to Yale's Skull and Bones which is not true.

Now, without going into a lengthy talk about the Indiana Alpha chapter. The answer from Purdue's end is simply to leave the cited lines about Purdue's chapter within the "Present Day TNE" section as it stands. It is cited and verifiable- case closed, and stop perpetuating nonsense about a Purdue hoax- because that is BS. No one is challenging the current Alpha group's effort in trying to maintain the nation organization today- Purdue's chapter never did that- nor does it want to do that now. Purdue was simply and Alpha in Indiana to rule its own chapter autonomously- that is it. It only ever had one real connection to another chapter which is Yale's which it helped charter. Purdue's chapter was a uniquely autonomous chapter within TNE that always had its own unique society. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 65.141.156.118 (talk) 07:18, 29 January 2008 (UTC)

This is all unsubstantiated and illogical nonsense. The Purdue Chapter of Theta Nu Epsilon became Skull & Crescent several decades ago. The only organization you represent are the people in your head.129.133.124.252 (talk) 04:12, 30 January 2008 (UTC)

NPOV, tip
Just in trying to sort through this from an outsider's perspective, it would really help the credibility of both sides if you guys would just get user IDs. This many revisions and changes from anon IPs is hard to follow. Getting your own IDs and user histories would help establish yourselves, and help the admins figure out the backstory on this edit war. Just a suggestion. Snowfire51 (talk) 07:50, 29 January 2008 (UTC) I'm opposed to user id's.129.133.124.252 (talk) 04:13, 30 January 2008 (UTC)
 * You're exactly right. Most of the editors of this article spend a lot of time pointing fingers instead of getting behind user IDs so we can actually figure out who is doing what.  Please permanently block editing of this article from non-registered users. Anyone who really cares about improving this article should be willing to create a user ID.  BlueGold73 (talk) 13:22, 29 January 2008 (UTC)

"Present Day" section
The Present Day section is wholly argument by Purdue, it is not history, it is not referenced, it it is not NPOV. Please remove it. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 159.247.3.210 (talk) 15:07, 29 January 2008 (UTC)
 * This is nonsense on a number of levels: 1) it was not a section added by anyone from Purdue- and you should also talk with BlueGold above about that. 2) We could care less where our factual and referenced facts about Purdue's chapter are placed- as long as we are acknowledged for what our chapter was since the 19th century: a fully autonoumous Indiana Alpha chapter that governed itself by itself and was connected exclusively to Purdue's own order called Skull and Crescent as even referenced on YOUR website. We are not going to tollerate some fantasy that Alpha had any control over what our group was becasue it never did even with the original Alpha and especially not with your upstart. TNE was only a loosly connected group of chapters that shared only one idea that they were 'sophmore' secret societies. Hell, even Alabama's group calls themselves something completely different all together, "The Machine".  —Preceding unsigned comment added by 65.141.156.17 (talk) 16:12, 29 January 2008 (UTC)
 * To remove the present day section would be to ignore the fact that there is clearly a significant amount of controversy surrounding the current existence state of the society. I'm staying out of the specific disagreements between Purdue and Alpha because I don't have access to any sources that address that issue, and I'm not affiliated with either of those two specific groups. It's also worth noting that some of these same anon IP editors have been causing a good deal of problems in other related articles.  See a message that was left on my talk page for more details. BlueGold73 (talk) 16:27, 29 January 2008 (UTC)


 * Purdue agrees with Bluegold. There is alot of issues surrounding the group, and we were very happy with Bluegold's contributions and were willing to work along with Bluegold's points. For the sake of record this is the full story about Purdue's group from the verifiable information that we have: There was a club in Indiana in West Lafayette, IN which was a society club for prominent people in Indiana (we possess the 1896 chapter book of it)- it wasn't specifically attached to the university- but John Purdue, the university's founder was a member of it. Purdue Univerrsity was founded in the 1860's as a school primarly for science and engineering and always had strong relationships with other high tech schools and colleges like MIT, Stanford as well as Illinois etc.


 * In the 1860's Yale's Sheff school, which Skull and Bones looked down upon, since at the time science was not really believed to be a gentile endeavor vs. the liberal arts majors, chose to thumb their nose at S&B by creating their own secret society Book and Snake. Book and Snake was a more modern and progressive society and even John Purdue was heavily influenced by it. When John Purdue founded his own university in the 1860's, he also sought to create the foundation to a society like Book and Snake that was meant to be a progressive scientific community.


 * In the 19th century, in the wake of the industrial revolution, science and technology became very important and many schools like Purdue, Michigan, Illinois etc. became powerhouses because they embraced engineering and science early on. Even Yale felt this pressure by adding the Sheff school officially to Yale University in the 19th century- and many prominant peope of S&B also wanted to have a connection to tech leaders for their own business interests. The logical thing for S&B to have done would be to turn to the Sheff school, but Book and Snake already controlled it. The other logical choice was MIT, but MIT had too close of a relationship to Harvrd and Yale and Harvard are traditional rivals.


 * In 1882, on S&B's 50th anniversary, S&B took a strong interst in many of the prominant tech schools in the Midwest- especially since if you look at the background of many S&B people, such as Taft etc, their families were from the Midwest- places like Ohio etc. and many of them, like Taft, would even later in life pursue careers in the Midwest. Purdue's visit to Yale's campus and S&B had a profound influence on shaping the original senior society started by John Purdue as well as made Purdue's group become aware of sophmore societies on the East Coast like Wesleyan's TNE. When Purdue students came back they formulated a sophmore society to act as a feeder group for their own senior society that was heavily influence by S&B- there was 15 memebers and they tapped etc. Wesleyan's original Alpha allowd Purdue's sophmore group to use the TNE name and logo to give their group a sophmore identity and Purdue's group was designated as "Indiana Alpha" which meant that they governed their own society autonomously from Wes Alpha. In 1892, TNE Indiana Alpha became attached to Skull and Crescent and the societies also beacame very elite because theyattracted many prominent Americans- including John Purdue.


 * Traditionally, there has been many hear say rumors from outsiders about the society, and the so-called substantial secrets that it may or may have not had. Many of these points have become part of the lore of the group, and many suggest that the group really just went underground and never died. Some of the lore surrounding the group includes that they removed the body of John Purdue from his campus grave site. While all of this lore is interesting, and genuinely part of the group's surrounding mystique- it is not a hoax nor should it be presented as a verifiable fact- it is very much like Skull and Bones lore of that group having the genuine skull of Geronimo.


 * The verifiable facts that we have about Purdue TNE are further referenced by Alpha TNE records too that anyone can check for themselves on the TNE website in the visitors chapter listing for Purdue's chapter. Purdue was Indiana Alpha connected to its own order called Skull and Crescent. TNE records as well. There is no excuse to remove the Purdue chapter's cited information that is verified even by TNE Alpha's own records. We have only listed very modest points about Purdue's chapter on Wikipedia's TNE article when there is even so much more that can be said about the group.


 * For further verifiable information about the group in Purdue's records, important dates are listed below:


 * 1869- founding of Skull & Crescent Senior Society with the founding of Purdue University (John Purdue's Halloween birthdate is what is used as start, October 31)


 * 1882- founding of the Indiana Alpha chapter of TNE on the year of Yale's 50th anniversary of Skull and Bones and the 80th birthday of John Purdue.


 * 1892- on the 10th anniversary of the Skull and Crescent and Alpha Indiana connection and on the 90th birthday of John Purdue.


 * 1902- on the 20th anniversary of Purdue's Indiana Alpha and the 100th birthday of John Purdue, the group helps charter the Yale chapter of TNE in 1902


 * 1992- on the 110th anniversary of Alpha Indiana and the 190th birthday of John Purdue, Purdue's secret societies are no longer noticed on campus- either defunct or underground

—Preceding unsigned comment added by 65.141.156.17 (talk) 17:28, 29 January 2008 (UTC)

This is all nonsense. Folks, there IS NO Purdue chapter. There hasn't been since the early 1900's. This guy is pulling your legs. Any admins here, this guy copyied my ip address and used it to sign his own post above in the 'Founding Date' section. Doesn't that give you some clue as to who is doing what here? He's got another one that's signed "thetanuepsilon @ alumnidirector dot com x" in 'The National Organization' section, that's not even a good job at faking. he's just pulling your legs and you're going along with it. Nobody at Purdue thinks there's been a chapter of Theta Nu Epsilon in something like 80 years. ---BlueGold is completely taken in by this..."To remove the present day section would be to ignore the fact that there is clearly a significant amount of controversy surrounding the current existence state of the society. I'm staying out of the specific disagreements between Purdue and Alpha because I don't have access to any sources that address that issue, and I'm not affiliated with either of those two specific groups." '''There IS NO Purdue group. It's all a joke.''' 65.141.156.17 made up this whole thing. ANYBODY, search Google with Purdue and 'Theta Nu Epsilon', and all you'll get is the Theta Nu Epsilon website referring to the late 19th century chapter and this article. There is nothing else, because that's all that there is.129.133.124.252 (talk) 04:10, 30 January 2008 (UTC)>
 * It shouldn't be any surprise that nothing recent turns up in a google search on a Purdue group (if there is in fact one). I doubt much of anything will turn up on any chapter except for maybe Nebraska where there always seems to be some shenanigans going on in true TNE tradition.  It's a secret society, and most of the current chapters, independent or affiliated with Alpha, are remaining sub rosa as is expected. Even the Alpha chapter makes mention in the news portion of its website when "a lost chapter has been located."<re  Alpha recognizes that these groups are out there carrying on independently and not necessarily making an effort to contact Alpha. Therefore saying something like "Nobody at Purdue thinks there's been a chapter of Theta Nu Epsilon in something like 80 years" doesn't really carry much weight. I would have said the same about several schools in recent time, but I've since been proven otherwise. BlueGold73 (talk) 04:26, 30 January 2008 (UTC)

That is not the case with Purdue. It didn't get lost, it publicly and clearly became an independent sophomore honorary society, Skull & Crescent. That's all. And that was in like 1908 or 1918, whatever. There hasn't been a chapter there in 80 years. Skull & Crescent is still alive, which is why the Theta Nu Epsilon website lists it as active, but it isn't Theta Nu Epsilon chapter, hasn't been for decades, and this poster, 65.141.156.17, only represents this group in his head. There is no friction between two groups because there isn't any second group. That's the whole punch line to his joke. ---And apparently the fact that he's signed posts in this discussion with MY ISP (as I've pointed out twenty times now)is apparently fine with you and everyone else. He had a whole page on a secret hidden Skull & Crescent deleted this past July. It was great. The imaginary order was controlled by a secret family of Venetian nobility and had the secrets of the United States committed to it for safekeeping. It went on and on. Look, BlueGold73, if you want to waste your time dealing with this stuff, go right ahead. All this shows is the huge vulnerability of wikipedia to any committed prankster. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 129.133.124.252 (talk) 06:49, 30 January 2008 (UTC)
 * The only reason I want to "waste my time dealing with this stuff" is because people keep removing a lot of the information I've contributed that actually is referenced and has nothing to do with the Purdue issue. BlueGold73 (talk) 13:27, 30 January 2008 (UTC)

Alpha Liars!!!
Excuse me, Stop making up BS about taking someone elses IP's- how desperate are you! Also, Purdue never had any website thetanuepsilon@alumnidirector... give me a break, this is all part of your misinformation game to gloss over facts. The ip that is in the box above happened when additional information was added about Purdue's dates- it got that way automatically-and I don't know how to fix it- but anyone can check the history records of the page and see that it was authentically posted- further proof of your lying ways and lack of credibility! Moreover, why do you keep making an issue about Purdue's chapter being active- this is not even a relevant point- even on the page right now it says that it ended or is at least underground as of 1992. It dosen't matter if it is active Purdue TNE posting, or Purdue TNE alumni posting, or even simply Purdue students concerned about their school's history. This is about historical accuracy and the fact that Purdue's chapter was an "Indiana Alpha" chapter and connected to its own society "Skull and Crescent". That is what is on the page right now, and it is verifiable even within YOUR own records and website-case closed. Purdue chapter was called by you guys alpha alpha early on when there was only a few chapters because it was the second alpha, but as more chapters were added, the greek letters started getting doubled, alpha alpha for Bowdoin, alpha beta for Kansas etc. Purdue was labled as the Alpha in Indiana. Your own records also indicate Purdue's group as a feeder organization into Skull and Crescent, hence as some point Purdue TNE breaks off into Skull and Crescent. Since Purdue was autonomus- and all of your dates are not necessarily correct, as even mentioned on the page right now, Wes Alpha did not know all the facts surrounding Purdue's group as well as many others, but they have record of the charting of yale's chapter in 1902/1903 so they also indicate on Purdue's listing a still active 1905 date etc.

Moreover, even in a well known active chapter like The Machine, those guys are not answering to you, they are autonomous- hence there was and still is autonomous chapters from the true Alpha and, of course, from you upstarts. The bottom line is no TNE chapter today or TNE alumni respect you guys- no one is answering to you. Your group is nothing more than smoke and mirrors trying to create a marketing campaign with your webpage and control of the Wikipedia article to make you guys seem like you are more than what you are- a phoney upstart- not even your own school blog respects you. You seem to be good for nothing more than trying to sell yourselves by chalking your logo and screeming hoax or being liars when you don't get your way. Now the bottom line is this for the last time: the page states right now that Purdue's chapter was an Indian Alpha and that the chapter was connected to its own school group called "Skull and Crescent" That specific point is fully verifiable EVEN WITHIN YOUR RECORDS AND ON YOUR WEBSITE FOR EVERYONE TO SEE. The small point made about Purdue within the giant article which is mostly vanity about Alpha is correct, verifiable, and cited. Case closed! What is the issue about what is listed on the article right now about what is said about Purdue's chapter? What is listed is verified even by your own records- you just don't like it becuse it takes away from your ego trip- that is all that this is about- you are looking to control Alpha upstart's image because the group has insecurities and legitimacy problems —Preceding unsigned comment added by 65.141.156.42 (talk) 07:25, 30 January 2008 (UTC)

Purdue's Final Statement

Now, we are not going to keep making the same point over and over again- nor is this a discussion about Purdue's senior societies or some other hoax nonsense that Alpha wants to keep dishing out. We have made our case about Purdue's chapter of TNE and we have proven that Purdue's group is recorded as "Indiana Alpha" within official records that are verifiable, and we have also proven that Purdue's chapter is connected to their own campus group called Skull and Crescent within official records that are verifiable. Purdue's chapter must be labled as such and recognized for its true character. Case Officially Closed. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 65.141.156.42 (talk) 08:55, 30 January 2008 (UTC)

Good. I hope it's final. The Purdue chapter hasn't existed in several decades. It became Skull and Crescent. It's not existing in secret, in hiding, in the celestial ether, or in the 7th dimension. Citing the Theta Nu Epsilon website does you no good, that only indicates that Skull & Crescent exists, not the dead Purdue Theta Nu Epsilon chapter. And let's be clear, that means ONLY the simple honest, straightforward Sophomore honary society, not anything else. Yale never authorized Purdue to do or be anything, and it couldn't have because Skull & Bones and Theta Nu Epsilon are different societies, and Skull & Bones can't authorize Theta Nu Epsilon chapters any more than it can authorize Chevrolet Dealerships. The Purdue chapter never had the authority to charter anything at Yale, and the papers of regarding the Yale Theta Nu Epsilon chapter are at Wesleyan. The Alpha Alpha chapter was for its short career a perfectly legit chapter of Theta Nu Epsilon, like any other, with no special powers, no fantasy authorizations. I have pointed out the false citations you've offered, (the Theta Nu Epsilon website), the logical impossibilities involved in your assertions, (Skull & Bones can't authorize chapters of other people's societies), and you've offered NO REAL CITATIONS for anything you've offered. This :"Some of the lore surrounding the group includes that they removed the body of John Purdue from his campus grave site", and shame on anyone who gets taken in by such obvious hoaxing. I don't know why you persist in ruining this wikipedia article with stupid pranks like this, but you really need to find other people to bother. I don't think this was ever really funny, though it is amazing that you were able to sucker in people like BlueGold and others. In other words, you've got nothing; you've proven nothing; you've only made unbelieveable and impossible claims. : ) Had enough, or do you need more?159.247.3.210 (talk) 20:12, 30 January 2008 (UTC)
 * Don't accuse me of being suckered into anything. How much have I contributed about Purdue - nothing more than possibly changing its "Indiana Alpha" designation to the proper "Alpha Alpha" as it is recorded in the numerous society records that I have in my possession.  The only reason I'm caught up in this is because in the process of the edit wars between Alpha and Purdue, all of my contributions either get completed modified or removed altogether.  I'm not taking Purdue's side because I'll admit some of their allegations seem quite far fetched and I don't see the references to back many of them up.  I'm also not taking the Alpha side either because I'm very skeptical of its ability to act as a national organization when some many groups remain independent and even against the group at Wesleyan.  TNE has never had a truly successful national organization in its history, and now is no exception.  That should be recognized instead of covered up. BlueGold73 (talk) 21:13, 30 January 2008 (UTC)


 * A few last remarks from Purdue for clarification: 1) We have already stated that Purdue was first labled as Alpha Alpha early on as the second Alpha chapter when there was only a few chapters in existence- when TNE expanded there was a doubling of greek letters to compensate for the numerous chapters, alpha alpha is now really for Bowdoin, alpha beta is for Kansas etc. Purdue was at the most recent labeling "Indiana Alpha" as noted within your records. Purdue finds it amazing that Wes glosses over their own official listing of it as also "Indiana Alpha"- there is no other group in any of your chapter listings that has a state name and Alpha attached to it. It is a completely unique formulation just for Purdue, verified in your records. If you want to label Purdue as "Alpha Alpha; Indiana Alpha" - we have no problem with that- but it is confusing since as the society progressed Bowdoin is now recognized as Alpha Alpha, Purdue was simply Indiana Alpha at that point. Also, all that lore stuff has nothing to do with TNE Indiana Alpha- it has to do with Purdue's senior societies- stop confussing that, they are two different groups. Purdue's TNE was just where Purdue's senior society would get their members from- it was a feeder group- and Wes Alpha allowed Purdue TNE to be autonomous because Purdue TNE was being used as a feeder group- no big deal. Wes Alpha never knew anything about Purdue's senior societies in terms of their internal workings, and quite frankly, Purdue's senior societies never wanted anyone to know anything about them- the disappearence of any articles about Purdue's senior groups was greatly welcomed- it was also not written by anyone attached officailly to the society-but rather by some nosey Purdue students that did not have all of their facts straight. Moreover, I don't see what is so strange about any secret society having lore attached to it- they all have it because they are strange to outsiders- and I was very clear about what was lore. Finally, what is such the big deal if a society from Purdue, founded before even going to Yale- so I don't know where all this Yale Skull and Bones sanctioning nonsense is coming from, went to visit the campus of Yale in 1882 and was further inspired from Yale's societies, such as the idea of tapping members or having a 15 member group. It is the visit to Yale that inspireded also bringing back an East Coast idea of a sophmore society of death to Purdue- that is what is meant when some posters say Purdue's sophmore society came from Yale. Anyone can even go on the campus today and take pictures of the tombs and learn more about the campus's culture or even meet people of the various secret groups. Actor Paul Giamatti is a member of Skull and Bones- fans today can even send him fan mail if they want to. No one here cares if anyone knows anything about Purdue's senior societies- quite frankly it is better the least you know, and enough ignorant people across the board at Purdue and not at Purdue have caused enough damage- and everyone confuses things that pertain exclusively to the senior group of Purdue as also belonging to TNE Alpha Indiana (they are not one and the same thing). TNE Alpha Indiana is simply a sophmore society that fed into a senior society- at the senior level, tapps had to go through a whole new initiation process and learn about a whole different society all together. So stop talking about all this Purdue senior stuff becasue it has nothing to do with the issues about TNE. Purdue TNE was a typical chapter of TNE with a few alterations- there was tapping and 15 memebers exclusively and basic things of that nature- Purdue's senior societies have nothing what so ever to do with TNE at all, except TNE serving as a feeder group into it on Purdue's campus. So, we only have one concern when it come to TNE and that is about the historical accuracy of Purdue's TNE listing: Specifically, that it is Indiana Alpha autonomous of Wesyleyan's Alpha, especially since we don't want people to believe that any chapter of TNE had a right to having a relationship to Skull and Crescent, only Purdue's chapter did. That is it. We don't care about your upstart or your agenda of trying to be the phoney head the National Chapter or whatever- Purdue in general never thought much of TNE- it was only useful as a prep society for preparing students to deal with something much greater later on. Lable Purdue's chapter accurately as Indiana Alpha and mention it as fully autonomous from Wes Alpha and we are done. We don't care where that is stated or in what category section- just make that point clear and we are good to go. If you want to stress another point that only Weslyan's Alpha maintained the national organization and Purdue's group was labled as an Alpha to note its own autonomous governing of only it's own chapter- that's fine with us. If you want a vanity project that will desperately blow yourselves up into more than you are, knock your socks off! But we will not tolerate anything less than what is verifiable even within your own records: Purdue TNE as INDIANA ALPHA and the exclusive relationship alone of that chapter to our senior societies! No other chapter of TNE had any right to be a part of Purdue's chapter of TNE- and that point is all that we care about! —Preceding unsigned comment added by 65.141.156.236 (talk) 22:07, 30 January 2008 (UTC)

Glad to see you backing off some of your bigger lies. You admit that you ended up with my ISP signing your comment. (Why you didn't get banned for that, I do not know.) You accept that Skull & Bones couldn't authorize anything at Purdue to do anything. You haven't quite adnmitted that Purdue Theta Nu Epsilon is dead, but you're close to that. You have thrown in a lot of vague and meaningless talk about Purdue senior societies as if you were talking about something real, when you're not. Skull & Crescent at Purdue is NOT a senior society, it's a Sophomore society, ( http://web.ics.purdue.edu/~skull/ ) but you probably forgot that. Among the wierd and senseless things you're still pretending to espouse is that when the Alpha Alpha chapter of T.N.E. at Purdue started calling itself "Indiana Alpha", that in no way implies that somehow Purdue has any right to create chapters. There's no evidence that the Purdue Chapter ever DID grant a charter back in the few years at the beginning of the 20th century when it existed. You obviously don't understand the state-naming system used by many fraternities (following the Phi Beta Kappa lead), that names chapters in alphabetical order by state. Several fraternities use the system, and will have an alpha chapter in every state the society has chapters, but those 'alphas' DO NOT have rights as a founding, parent chapter. it doesn't make sense that they would. So if the Alpha Alpha at Purdue called itself indiana Alpha for a couple of years, that doesn't say ANYTHING abouit the perogatives the chapter claimed. So you really do have nothing. Moreover, even if this Purdue chapter, during it's brief existence decades ago did claim any extraordinary authority it could only have been against the Constitution of Theta Nu Epsilon. Let's not forget that the reason why you had to resort to the wild claim that Skull & Bones authorized Purdue T.N.E. to be different, (which you have done many times), is because you had to find some other basis for your overall claims for the Purdue chapter as an independent entity. In the end, all you've done is make a lot of laughable claims, not cite to anything real, rant generally, give up on a lot of claims when you're proven wrong, screw up a servicable article, fake a bunch of signatures, annoy people, post a lot of disengenuous things, ---are you that starved for attention? And if you think somehow all these ridiculous and offensive charges you're making against the Alpha Chapter and the rest of the Theta Nu Epsilon Society are somehow productive, then...well, they are not productive. This imaginary society you belong to is NOT in conflict with Theta Nu Epsilon and the Alpha Chapter because it does not exist. The 'Present Day' section of the article should be removed, it is argument from an imaginary chapter.129.133.124.252 (talk) 06:53, 31 January 2008 (UTC)

Sorry, BlueGold, you were suckered into it. "To remove the present day section would be to ignore the fact that there is clearly a significant amount of controversy surrounding the current existence state of the society. I'm staying out of the specific disagreements between Purdue and Alpha because I don't have access to any sources that address that issue, and I'm not affiliated with either of those two specific groups." He had you believing that there was some real group at Purdue. There isn't. There is Theta Nu Epsilon, with the chapters it has, and the amicable relations it has with independent but historically related chapters. Then there is one guy with his imaginary chapter and his skein of hoaxes, and he had you believing there was actually a group at Purdue. The Alpha Alpha chapter at Purdue is long dead, it was replaced by Skull & Crescent, a perfectly fine and innocuous Sophomore honor society that is not involved in any of this. There is no real controversy since there is no real party on the other side. One wacko in the wilderness is not a real party.129.133.124.252 (talk) 06:59, 31 January 2008 (UTC)

FINAL STRAW!!!!
Blue Gold noted your IP of being banned- you are the wack job. It is the 129...and the 159... that got banned, not any Purdue IP's of 65... You are the biggest liar there ever was and nothing more than that. A desperate, insecure upstart that is hopelessly trying to give some impression that your group has some control over a National Organzition that doesn't exist right now and never ever truly existed in any kind of secure form in TNE's history, even noted by Blue Gold. We are done playing games with you loosers. Your group hasn't chartered a single TNE chapter in your life, and there isn't a single TNE chapter that is speaking up to verify your sanctioning of any chapters today or your authority to be the head of any National Organization- you are nothing more than a bunch of frauds that happen to go to Wesleyan and think that that makes you authentic TNE with the right to head the National Organization- there is no National Organization today acting as an official governing body - just some smoke an mirrors website that is pretending to be the National Organization- give us all a break. The bottom line is this: Purdue's chapter is noted ,as even in YOUR own records as, AN INDIANA ALPHA CHAPTER WITH AN EXCLUSIVE RELATIONSHIP TO THEIR OWN CAMPUS GROUP CALLED SKULL AND CRESCENT Any way you look at that statement- that statement is factually true and proven to be true even within YOUR own records for everyone to see- the records that you guys based 90 percent of the article on. Now, if that statement about Purdue is is not contained within this article somewhere, we will flag this artcile as having a bias, we will flag this article as lacking citations within the body of the text, we will flag this article as needing objective sources, and we will go on and on and on- No one respects you upstarts that have no real knowledge about TNE, and we are not going to put up with a punk 1980's upstart that even tried to claim membership into M7- how pathetic you all are! Now, we are done with your Nazi ways of trying to cover up the truth- but that truth is there for everyone to see even within YOUR own records as Purdue being recognized as INDIANA ALPHA ,and Purdue having a connection to their own group Skulll and Crescent- if you are going to deny that factual point- than 90% of this article has to be rejected as well because 90% of the info on this article is coming from that same record. You can jabber on all you want from this point forwrd and try to reject Purdue's societies that you know nothing about- but we presented our case, proved Purdue being recorded as INDIANA ALPHA, and we are done talking. If our Purdue factual, verified statement is not contained within this article then we will continuously flag this article on a number of levels- maybe others are weak and willing to have liar punks control Wikipedia to suit their agenda- but we will not! You can say what ever you want from this point forward, we don't care- we will only take action to preserve the historical truth about Purdue's chapter within this article from this point forward. Talking is done, and if any editor in Wikipdeia suggests to talk things out ever again on the discussion page in the future- you can forget about that too! We have discussed, and we have proven Purdue's group as being INDIANA ALPHA. Talking across the board as an idea for resolution has been exhausted. GOOD BYE!

—Preceding unsigned comment added by 65.141.156.85 (talk) 15:56, 31 January 2008 (UTC)

In other words, you admit that calling a chapter a state alpha doesn't necessarily give it any perogitives to do anything. Nice that that's settled. And you admit that Purdue had no basis, other than it's own will and intent to act against the constitutions of Theta Nu Epsilon, to try to set itself up as some sort of fake parent chapter. And you admit that there IS NO Theta Nu Epsilon chapter on the Purdue campus and hasn't been for years. And you admit that Skull & Crescent is just an ordinary Sophomore honorary society. I'd be happier if you admitted that your claim to some sort of relationship with Skull & Bones at Yale is wholly imaginary, but I guess you can't get everything. Cool. With all those admissions, I suppose there is a basis for going forward. I don't expect an apology for perpetuating a hoax. Have a nice day.159.247.3.210 (talk) 17:08, 31 January 2008 (UTC)

Sorry, BlueGold, but if you read his stuff carefully, (and the boatload of nonsense he posted this past July), there is no Purdue chapter, and as another poster above noted, the Alpha Chapter is accepted as the leader of the Theta Nu Epsilon National by its own chapters, by the independent chapters with whom the Alpha is in good relations, and even by independent chapters with whom the Alpha does not maintain relations. There's nothing to cite whatever for any claim to the contrary. it's just another made up allegation. This critic from Purdue is just attacking the Alpha Chapter with whatever slurs he can come up with, and which don't even make a lot of sense. He is doing it in support of an organization that has no real existence, and in support of historical claims that are both inconceivable and wholly unsupported. ---That is a hoax, that is stuff which does not belong in the article, and that is stuff which, (at least to any impartial observer), is grounds for being banned. His whole article on a secret, hidden order of Skull & Crescent was deleted this summer, because there wasn't a word of truth in any of it. He had this whole section on how Theta Nu Epsilon led the straw hat hatband fashions at the turn of the century which was kind of funny, I'll give him points for that.129.133.124.252 (talk) 02:13, 1 February 2008 (UTC)

No resolution has been accepted to have the page's "Present Day TNE" section removed
Removal of this section created by Blue Gold is contra to the objectives of the resolution as well as removing cited information about the society. No one agreed to removing it! This is unacceptable Wikipedia practice showing undemocratic favor to a particular interest group. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 65.141.156.232 (talk) 17:54, 6 February 2008 (UTC)

The section started with a claim "However, a number of TNE chapters still remain independent from Alpha's National Organization, and continue to question the current Alpha chapter's legitimacy to act as the National Organization," which is a claim on behalf of a non-existent organization, and then included a long hoax history about some different society intervening in Theta Nu Epsilon affairs, all of which lacked citation, (because, of course, it couldn't have because it was made up). The section tried to show there was some sort of controversy about the National Organization, but the only 'controversy' was with a fictional entity. These people making ridiculous claims about Theta Nu Epsilon are only hurting the society. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 159.247.3.210 (talk) 16:55, 8 February 2008 (UTC)


 * And a lot of other information was removed that was completely factual and cited throughout the article. That's where I have a problem with what's going on here. BlueGold73 (talk) 19:40, 8 February 2008 (UTC)

Not quite. One paragraph removed was on Taft, which may have been accurate and cited, but it started with something flat out incorrect, saying that "Theta Nu Epsilon boasts the initiation of...". Theta Nu Epsilon doesn't boast any such thing. The Theta Nu Epsilon website barely mentions Taft's initiation. Nor should it, the initiation of one man doesn't really mean anything, and certainly doesn't define the organization, which is where the paragraph was put. Now, a dozen years later when there was correspondence between the society and Taft about him being named the president of the national, that might be of some weight, but the Alpha Chapter isn't going to release those documents, so they can't be cited here.

Another paragraph suggested that the Alpha Chapter was originally censured by the Wesleyan faculty, which was cited correctly but was incorrect, anyway. It must have been some myth that someone reported as true. There is nothing in the Wesleyan University faculty minutes that supports this, nothing in the Wesleyan campus newspaper, nothing in the correspondence of the Dean or the correspondence or diaries of the Secretary of the Faculty that would support this. Nor is there anything in the writings of the founding members at Wesleyan. Nor did the Wesleyan chapter "go sub rosa" ever in the first several decades of its existence, and always, for example, appeared in the yearbook, the newspaper, stage public events, etc. So, the cite was true, but the content was not.

A third paragraph asserted that the same location, (the October 1910 Sophomore), said that districts were instituted to combat illegitimate chapters, which is not true. There's nothing in the October 1910 Sophomore to support that. It just is a bad citation to nothing. Districts were not created to combat illegitimate chapters. Further, even though districts were created at that time, it doesn't really need to be in a wikipedia article. Just because something happened doesn't mean it is worth including here. The district plan you mention was never really implemented, and was abandoned a couple of years later. A few years after that a new districting plan was attempted, and that one didn't fare much better. Why include minor bureaucratic meaningless details?

So, a couple of half-truths and other details might have been missed, but you also put back some of the whopping nonsense of the Purdue people, too. Look at the garbage that still is here in this discussion page. Between the ridiculous Treasury-secret nonsense to the bitter invective against the National Organization, there is an awful lot of stuff that didn't belong anywhere. In fact, these raging Purdue outbursts may have occurred at just exactly when the society was engaged in some critical negotiations and spoiled the matter. A high price to pay for someone's hoaxing rants.129.133.124.252 (talk) 00:11, 10 February 2008 (UTC)

Outside opinion
I have been following this discussion from the sidelines for a while now, and have a few suggestions and comments:
 * One of the contributers, editing here under 159.247.3.210 and 129.133.124.199 has just been blocked for one month for severe incivility for edits to several articles; see Administrators' noticeboard/IncidentArchive365. At this time only the Wesleyan U. IP 199 is blocked; should they act similarly here in the future using the Middletown 210 IP or another related IP before their block expires, please report them for block evasion; do not respond in kind as it just makes your own positions less defensible.
 * Given the fact that that user is no longer able to disrupt this talk page, it seems to me the right time for the rest of you to try to hash things out in a WP:civil manner.
 * Although I understand that individuals contributing to an article on secret societies may want to edit anonymously to keep within fashion, I highly recommend the creation of a dedicated user ID. You don't have to give up your real names, addresses, or social security numbers to do so. The benefits of doing so are these:
 * Administrators and other users can easily tell which user is which; this helps you when things get heated and someone is called in to sort them out.
 * If you are using a public IP, others editing from the same terminal or building may be making edits from the same IP; creating an account distinguishes you from them.
 * Doing so shows that you are committed to working with this process, not against it. Such a commitment shed a favorable light on you when problems arise. Since you all seem to care enough about this article to argue heatedly about it for so long, please help other Wikipedia editors and admins help you by working with the system to your advantage.

Best,--Pgagnon999 (talk) 00:56, 12 February 2008 (UTC)
 * Finally, although I know it is hard to not respond to negativity in kind, you'll find that you'll receive more support here if you can keep your cool even when under fire.

Sourced info
Can someone explain how some information that had sources... for example president taft being a member which was proven by an article from the new york times that it was linked to was removed? Uh how does that make any sense? —Preceding unsigned comment added by Skey (talk • contribs) 19:29, 13 February 2008 (UTC)

It was lost when the article had to be reverted to a pre-edit war version. It was hardly relevant to the history of the society. Many organizations give honorary memberships. They are not really substantive.4.245.239.126 (talk) 19:02, 18 February 2008 (UTC)

An Objective Solution
Since most Wesleyan IP's are blocked and the Purdue group seems to have exhausted their imput. This would be a good time for an objective solution:

1st, in support of Purdue, their group is recorded as being both Alpha Alpha and Indiana Alpha within Alpha records. The formulation of a state name and Alpha is completely unique to their group alone, and would have to imply some sort of governing priveledges, even if it is merely autonomy over their own group or within the state of Indiana. Also, the split off into Skull and Crescent is also recorded within Alpha records too- we just don't have any way of knowning weather that means a sophmore honor society or a senior secret society, sub rosa. As for the 1882 date, dates across the board are basically up in the air for all chapters, except for the founding Alpha, and 1882 for Purdue's founding seems to not be an issue by both groups, it has been listed that way for as long time- and it is in fact the 50th anniversary date of Skull and Bones, and worth mentioning.

I would add a statement about Purdue's chapter to the article, creating more objectivity to this TNE article, but the Purdue statement should be qualified in the following manner:


 * The TNE chapter of Purdue University was recorded as both being the Alpha Alpha chapter and the Indian Alpha Chapter, with the later chapter name possibly implying governing privledges. The founding date of Purdue's Chapter of TNE is generally accepted to be 1882, a year that also marks the 50th anniversary of Yale's Skull and Bones. Purdue's chapter is also recorded to have been connected to their own campus society called Skull and Crescent, a society which may have been a campus honor society, still existing today, or possibly a secret senior society, acting sub rosa, and as of yet, lacking verifiability.

We now have a qualified factual statement for Purdue's chapter across the board.
 * both chapter names are given (proven within alpha's records).
 * 1882 founding date with "generally accepted" to qualify it.
 * 1882 being the 50th anniversary of Skull and Bones (proven to be true by S&B's founding of 1832).
 * and the connection to Skull and Crescent (known to be true by Alpha records), but written in a way that is qualified to either mean both possible groups, with also making clear that S&C as a senior secret society has, at least as of yet, still not proven itself verifiably.

Now in support of the Wes chapter, it should be made clear that the Alpha chapter alone, during any point of TNE' existence, was the chapter that headed the National Organization- and Purdue's status as an "alpha" of Indiana never challenged that point.

Finally, we do need a "Present Day" section to tie in some of the current issues that surround TNE today- the mere fact that this page alone had to be shut down, is enough proof that there are issue with the group. We also can not gloss over the fact that the current Alpha is a reactivated chapter from a period of dormancy, and there is no way for anyone to verify, with certainty, that the current Alpha knows authentically the true, original traditions of TNE. This point should honestly be made. Also, factual statements that have also been proven by sourced material should also be added back to the article. To accomplish the whole task oulined above, I nominate Blue Gold, since he is most knowledgable about the group and not a member of either Wes or Purdue.

This is my proposed solution.Jonesbig (talk) 20:32, 14 February 2008 (UTC)


 * While I am a bit more objective in that I don't represent either of those two chapters, I do take some issue with the statement "the Alpha chapter alone, during any point of TNE' existence, was the chapter that headed the National Organization." At the height of TNE's activity, several national organization's were quite active.  In fact during much of this time, Alpha Chapter was not head of any of these organizations.  In fact, that's why the first national organization was formed - because Alpha recognized that they no longer were able to maintain order and unity throughout the organization.  That is what has caused much of the current issues today.  Alpha has returned to the spotlight as head of a reorganized national organization, and several chapters that were independent or at one time under one of the other national organizations have taken issue with Alpha's ability to simply choose to regain control.  On the other hand, many chapters support what Alpha is doing.  It's really a mess to put it bluntly.  What I really have a problem with is when someone from the Wesleyan IP's makes a statement that I cited something correctly, but that source had incorrect information, even though we're talking about historic publications from the National Organization that Alpha was a member of.  Apparently the current members at Wesleyan have the ability to go back in time and verify things that were published nearly 100 years ago.  And then on other items they tell me that something I cited just doesn't exist at all.  I guess I'll just have to start scanning documents and uploading them.  After all, they're old enough to be in public domain anyway I guess.  I'll try to put together something objective for a present day section with some references.  Thanks to everyone who's stepped in to try and settle all of these disputes. BlueGold73 (talk) 02:13, 15 February 2008 (UTC)


 * Agree and second Jonesbig's nomination of BlueGold73; this material needs to be reorganized with references and an eye toward nuetrality and inclusivity. BlueGold has previously demonstrated that investment. I also strongly suggest a strict regimen of WP:Deny recognition (don't feed the trolls) with regard to future disruptive and uncivil contributions here, with 3RR violations reported immediately and retaliatory comebacks avoided.--Pgagnon999 (talk) 15:21, 15 February 2008 (UTC)


 * P.S., I have added the troll warning template to this page with the aim to alert contributers to carefully choose their rhetoric here and so avoid flame wars. --Pgagnon999 (talk) 15:25, 15 February 2008 (UTC)

http://www.purdue.edu/ODOS/sao/greek/recruitment/GV_Summer.pdf http://www.purduegreeks.com/councils/ifc/docs/forms/SkullandCrescent2007.doc
 * The Purdue story is a myth. The Theta Nu Epsilon chapter became Skull & Crescent. Skull & Crescent is an honorary Sophomore/Junior society that had several midwestern chapters.


 * The Purdue chapter wasn't even the original Skull & Crescent chapter.


 * Since that's the case, any editor should regard the claims by the advocates of some special ultra-secret existence for a Purdue organization as being equally creditable.


 * If someone can find a link to a college history, an alumni magazine article, a local newspaper article, any neutral independent source, at all; they should go right ahead. People may want to consider wikipedia policies on no original research and verifiability.4.245.239.126 (talk) 19:26, 18 February 2008 (UTC)

It is not true that "The formulation of a state name and Alpha is completely unique to their group alone, and would have to imply some sort of governing priveledges". Phi Beta Kappa, Sigma Phi, Alpha Kappa Psi, Alpha Omega Alpha, Phi Theta Kappa, Alpha Kappa Delta, all name their chapters alpha, beta, gamma, delta, and so on, of the various states, there is no governing diffference in any of these societies among their chapters. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 129.133.124.194 (talk) 03:34, 19 February 2008 (UTC)
 * Excellent point, which brings up another. The Alpha chapter of those groups don't have any special governing priviledges.  The governance lies with the national organizations/grand chapters of those groups.  If that body failed to exist, governance would not automatically fall back to the Alpha chapter unless such an arrangement was agreed upon by the other chapters.  In the case of TNE, the current, and disputed, Alpha chapter has decided that it has the authority to do just that, by acting as the national organization by its own decision.  Several chapters and alumni dispute the authority, and even dispute Alpha's existance as a legitimate chapter because it had been reactivated by a group of students without permission or direction from other chapters or any national governing body.  Sure they have access to more of the historical documents, because of their location at the birthplace of the society, but does that automatically make them a legitimate group, or give them the automatic ability to assume the role of national organization? I'm playing devils advocate here a little bit, because this is an issue that is at the heart of the current conflict between the chapters, and has resulted in much of the flame war between the Wesleyan IPs and Purdue IPs, as well as several other commenters, here on the discussion page (much of which has been deleted long ago by some of the Wesleyan IPs). Another thing to keep in mind is that the descrepency between chapter names was generally caused by the fact that several national organizations were active at the same time granting new charters.  As some of these chapters eventually came to agreement with the original, larger national organization, some of these chapter letter designations had to be changed so they were not in conflict with one another and followed the naming standards of the then nationl organization. BlueGold73 (talk) 13:21, 19 February 2008 (UTC)

Actually, if you check the history of EVERY college fraternity or society, the Alpha chapter IS the governing chapter until some more elaborate governing procedure is instituted, usually a convention scheme, (the Alpha or whatever the original chapter was, with DKE, it was the Phi). The Alpha Chapter's position is not challenged by any chapter and your insistance that there is a dispute has been unsubstantiated by anyone here posting any legitimate cite to anything suggesting that there is a Theta Nu Epsilon group at Purdue or anywhere else that does contest the Alpha Chapter's position. Of the known surviving generally accepted entities that are descended from or related to Theta Nu Epsilon, Berkeley and Alabama, while remaining totally independent, do not challange the National Organization of Theta Nu Epsilon, and maintain positive relations, and even Kansas and Nebraska, which do not maintain positive relations, do not challenge what the Alpha Chapter is or what it is doing. (And actually, I don't think any of these claim to be direct continuations of the original society.) ---Of course, I will not be providing citations to prove that, but I do not have to, I am not trying to put it in the article. People who want to maintain something different will have to provide citations to prove what they want to prove. The challenge from 4.245.239.126 is correct, "If someone (making claims that there is a dispute, or that there is something at Purdue or anywhere else) can find a link to a college history, an alumni magazine article, a local newspaper article, any neutral independent source, at all; they should go right ahead. People may want to consider wikipedia policies on no original research and verifiability." If there is no verifiable citable source, it can't go in. You can't just insist there is a dispute and then rewrite the article that way.129.133.124.252 (talk) 03:40, 20 February 2008 (UTC)
 * "if you check the history of EVERY college fraternity or society, the Alpha chapter IS the governing chapter until some more elaborate governing procedure is instituted, usually a convention scheme" -- I'm not taking issue with that.  The fact remains that a governing procedure via national organization and convention scheme was instituted, which gave all chapters representative control in the society.  As this body failed to assert its authority (partially because it was late in forming), governing power was spread across several national organizations and autonomous chapters.  While an alpha chapter of any fraternity is the governing chapter in the beginning, it cannot simply reassert its governing power decades later without approval from all legitimate groups of the society.  Any chapter that does not maintain positive relations is evidence that the current Alpha's power is in dispute.  This conflict (which you claim does not exist) is at the heart of the edit wars on this article.  This has been evidenced several times on the discussion page, by comments that several different editors have included in the article, by current publications of these chapters that are not in line with the policies of the current Alpha, and by conversations I've had with members of several chapters throughout the Midwest, which I unfortunately cannot use as a source.  The fact remains that anytime adds information to this article that does not strictly adhere to the beliefs of a few IPs, then those people get on here and immediately delete the comments, even though those IPs have provided even less references.  They even claim to be so all-knowing that century year old information straight out of the magazines of the then national organization is false.  You'll find that these disputes and edit wars were going on long before I, or any of the pro-Purdue editors, began attempting to contribute to the article.  Honestly I vote that we blank the entire article and start over, and require that every single last detail must be cited as it is rebuilt. If the result is a very short and vague article, then so be it.  After all, little is known and what's known is kept secret.  BlueGold73 (talk) 14:57, 22 February 2008 (UTC)

Some Neutral Evidence of a Secret Order of Skull and Crescent
First off, in all of the Alpha's recordings listed on your website, only one chapter is noted to being an Alpha with a state name- and that is Purdue's chapter. It is especially unique, at least, within your record's acknowledgment of them as such- so even if there does exist other Alphas with a state name, there was no special effort on your chapter's part of acknowledging them as such, but for Purdue, there was- a strong indication that there was something rather significant in also making the additional effort of acknowledging them as "Indiana Alpha". Also, It doesn't really make sense why a sophmore secret society would turn into a greek system honor society when on Purdue's campus there was always a very different classification between the greek system and secret societies, and in fact, any Purdue secret society today would have to be sub rosa otherwise they would receive alot of flack from the school- secret societies are currently outlawed on Purdue's campus. Also, there is objective evidence that Purdue's chapter may have been linked to a midwest Secret Order of Skull and Crescent attached to a sophmore secret society. Check out this listing from a Big Ten college newspaper, scroll down till you find the right one, but there is one that talks about a sophmore Skull and Crescent secret society group that some thought was linked to the KKK, and that fits right into some of the sourced info that BlueGold73 had posted about TNE- so there is some neutral evidence to say that Indiana Alpha may have been linked to a secret order known as Skull and Crescent. Here's the link and I hope it posts: http://www.dailyillini.com/home/index.cfm?event=displayArticleComments&ustory_id=96b212c-3490-4727-87a9-a85c3321d3c0 Jonesbig (talk) 05:25, 20 February 2008 (UTC)

It doesn't seem to want to pop up. Go do a search on the internet, not through google, just a regular internet search under "Theta Nu Epsilon Skull Crescent" you should find the Daily Illini article I am talking about, probably on the second page saying "Skull and Crescent was the sophmore version of the KKK and Fred Turner was the faculty advisor". That is the one I'm trying to get to post- but you will find it if you just follow these instructions. Once you do find it, the relevant talk will be about the 18th blocked entry down on the page with "Fred Turner as it's faculty advisor", followed by a list of some chapters.Jonesbig (talk) 05:47, 20 February 2008 (UTC)

Wait, the article may have been moved to this link- if this link doesn't post either, just follow the web search directions listed above to find the article: http://www.dailyillini.com/home/index.cfm?www.dailyillini.com/home/index.cfm?event=displayArticleComments&displayArticleComments&display=all&&ustory_id=96b212c-3490-4727-87a9-a85c3321d3c0#7b10f797-e299-4937-9931-a88998b72f33e Jonesbig (talk) 16:05, 20 February 2008 (UTC)

JUST FOLLOW SEARCH DIRECTIONS, it is too hard to get the link to pop up.Jonesbig (talk) 16:11, 20 February 2008 (UTC)

So, what I think we can conclude, is that it was very possible that Purdue University could have had some order called Skull and Crescent attached to their chapter of TNE- and an order that wasn't just a sophmore honor society. Also, the notions of the Illini saying that this Midwest order was part of the KKK, may have just been a standard mix up of a TNE connection that even Bluegold's research seemed to suggest, that there were people that thought TNE was a KKK group. Also, since some neutral evidence exists about some secret collegiate group of Skull and Crescent existing in the Midwest, then maybe that original article about Purdue's Skull and Crescent wasn't a hoax at all, but rather a legitimate article that was just trying to patch together facts, hear say and conjecture into what the author believed was honestly the history of the Skull and Crescent society.Jonesbig (talk) 21:37, 21 February 2008 (UTC)

Therefore, in light of the evidence, I believe that Purdue's group should be recognized in the following manner: Purdue University's chapter of TNE was recorded as both the "Alpha Alpha" chapter and the "Indiana Alpha" chapter, with the group's state alpha classification fully recognized within the records of the "Alpha" chapter of Wesleyan College. Purdue's TNE group is generally accepted to have been founded in 1882, a year that also mark's the 50th anniversary of Yale University's "Skull and Bones". Purdue's group is also recorded within Alpha's records to have had a unique relationship to their own campus society called "Skull and Crescent", a society that may have been linked to to a Midwest order also recognized by some at the University of Illinois.Jonesbig (talk) 22:37, 21 February 2008 (UTC)

I also beleive that 1882 qualified as "generally accepted" is the appropriate founding date, since Purdue's group states it as such, and Wesleyan's chapter has accepted it as such on this page for a long time. Therefore, it has been "generally accepted" to be the founding date, especially since it is clear that there are no officially verified founding dates for most of even the legitimate chapters of TNE. In short, I think we have found an appropriate listing for Purdue's chapter of TNE within this Wikipedia article, and therefore, I move towards closing up this discussion about Purdue TNE and listing Purdue's chapter of TNE with in the article as just outlined. Jonesbig (talk) 22:37, 21 February 2008 (UTC)

--Former chapters of Theta Nu Epsilon became honorary societies in many instances. The gap between a class society and honorary society is not significant and most senior class societies today seem to be honoraries. To be a Sophomore honorary is even more appropriate. It is possible but unproven that Skull & Crescent as an intercollegiate society was deliberately organized as a refuge for Theta Nu Epsilon chapters in a collapsing society. --The link doesn't work, but your description of it seems to only indicate one man was a faculty advisor to the Skull & Crescent group; what of that? --There is no link to any verifiable/creditable source that there is more than one Skull & Crescent at Purdue, which Jonesbig admits "Skull and Crescent, a society which may have been a campus honor society, still existing today, or possibly a secret senior society, acting sub rosa, and as of yet, lacking verifiability." --There is no link to any verifiable/creditable source that the Purdue Chapter had any authority from anywhere outside itself to rename itself Indiana Alpha. --There is no link to any verifiable/creditable source that renaming as Indiana Alpha meant that the chapter had some sort of governing powers, or instead was just trying to order the local chapters, much in the way the illegitimate chapters at Kansas have tried to do in the 1960's. --There is no link to any verifiable/creditable source that there is any link between anyone at Purdue and Skull & Bones, (fiftieth anniversaries notwithstanding a lot of things happneed in 1882 not all of it done in celebration of Skull & Bones). --There is no link to any verifiable/creditable source that there is any known Theta Nu Epsilon group on the Purdue campus today, or at any time since ca. 1931. --There is no link to any verifiable/creditable source that there is a Secret Order of Skull & Crescent. --There is no link to any verifiable/creditable source that there is any entity a part of or descended from any chapter of Theta Nu Epsilon that has any conflict with what the National Organization of the Alpha Chapter has done, will do, what it claims, what it states, or what its legitimacy is. --There is no link to any verifiable/creditable source that any of the extraordinary claims that otherwise have been made are true. There have been no support for any of this for several months. If there are any links to verifiable, creditable, third party sources, please feel free to post them. Wikipedia policy precludes unverifiable material and/or original research.129.133.124.252 (talk) 06:02, 22 February 2008 (UTC)

A Proper Listing For Purdue's Chapter of TNE Has Been Established Based on Evidence
There is no proof on your part to say that Purdue's chapter of TNE, infact, became an honor society.

Following the directions I gave will lead to a citable Daily Illini listing with relevance to the topic based on the original request of a NEUTRAL source, as outlined above.

Your own chapter's records acknowledge Purdue's chapter as being Indiana Alpha, so that isn't just something that Purdue's chapter is labeling themselves, and your own chapter also makes the effort of acknowledging Skull and Crescent as well.

Also, since TNE has a link to Skull and Bones, it is also relevent to point out that 1882 is the 50th anniversary of Skull and Bones. Finally, being no support for any of this for month is a completely irrelevent point- there is support for this now to back up the claims that were always made by Purdue's group, thus, as I have said previously, based on the evidence, we now have an acceptable listing for how Purdue's chapter of TNE should be listed within this article- the move for a more inclusive TNE article has been agreed upon by more than one person, as well as inclusion of Bluegold's sourced material too. Your arguments are based on vanity for your particular chapter rather than any desire for objective truth. It is objective truth to say:

1) Purdue University's chapter of TNE has been recorded as being both the "Alpha Alpha" chapter and "Indian Alpha" chapter, with the state alpha classification also fully recognized within the records of the Alpha chapter of Wesleyan College.

2) Purdue's chapter of TNE is generally accepted to have been founded in 1882, a year that also marks the 50th anniversary of Yale University's Skull and Bones.

3) Purdue's chapter of TNE is also recorded within Alpha records to have had a unique relatioinship to their own campus society called Skull and Crescent, a society that may have been linked to a Midwest order also recognized by some at the University of Illinois.

All three of these statement would be in agreement with what Purdue proponants would have been arguing for, and all three of these statements are also objectively true in light of the evidence found even at this point. Therefore, again, I move towards closing up this discussion and incorporating this appropriate, factual Purdue statement into this article to create more objectivelity to this TNE article.Jonesbig (talk) 17:11, 22 February 2008 (UTC)


 * I would agree to this because it's based on actual references. BlueGold73 (talk) 17:18, 22 February 2008 (UTC)

Therefore, my final proposal to create a more objective TNE article is this 1) Purdue's chapter listing has to also be placed within the proper chronological order based on the 1882 date. 2) There should only be the assumed founding dates to each chapter listing written, in case certain chapters are actually alive and sub rosa. 3) The 3 point Purdue statement accepted by Bluegold should also be incorporated within the article somewhere. 4) Bluegold's original sourced information, as well as a Present day TNE section, should also be returned. 5) My nonimation for Bluegold to accomplish all of this still stands.

Now, I vote in favor of this, if Bluegold and Pgagnon also votes in favor of this motion- there would be a 3 to 2( assuuming the 2 Wesleyan posters will reject) passing vote, and this can be finally put to rest. I would further suggest that these talk pages be archived to start fresh, and we are finally done with what has been a problematic article for Wikipedia for a long time.Jonesbig (talk) 18:30, 22 February 2008 (UTC)


 * Just to head off some possible problems here, I should say that while I applaud recent efforts here to resolve these disagreements peacfully and with civil (as opposed to insulting) debate, I do not plan on participating in such a debate other than to engage in basic housekeeping and peacekeeping. Second, since at least one participant has made a valid point against archiving, doing so should probably wait, unless there is overwhelming consensus by others members who want to archive. Finally, I would like to point out DEMOCRACY; disputes are resolved on Wikipedia by debate consensus, which is not necessarily the equivalent of voting. best, --Pgagnon999 (talk) 20:56, 22 February 2008 (UTC)

Well then, is the point to stay here in limbo and do nothing about this? The whole reason for this talk was to come to some resolution. Pgagnon, already seconded Bluegold's nomination to revise, earlier, and for this article to be more inclusive- Bluegold already said that he had no problem to the 3 points outlined because it it based on evidence. Then what justification is there to not have Purdue's chapter fully recognized for what is demonstrable by evidence. Bluegold, already said that he has no probelm with the tree points- therefore, it should be included, and if it is not, then would it not be fair to say that clearly Wikipedia is demonstrating favoritism, a rejection of evidence, and a clearly unjustified bias. Personally, I really don't even see why Wesleyan is so up in arms about Purdue being recognized as Indiana Alpha and attached to their own group of Skull and Crescent- how does that have anything to deminish with the Alpha chapter- it really does seem like nothing more than ego occuring here- that Purdue make take away some of Alpha's thunder- and I should remind everyone, that this article about TNE is not a website meant to promote the current Alpha chapter- I get the impression that they feel it will take away from their recruiting or something. Wikipedia articles are meant to have some objectivity to them- and at this point it does seem like we are now starting to ignore even evidence. Jonesbig (talk) 21:10, 22 February 2008 (UTC)


 * I think you are missing my point, Jonesbig. Yes, I think that BlueGold has demonstrated the capacity to work with other users here in distilling general consensus from these disputes. However, Wikipedia does not achieve consensus through voting. And I will not be the one to say, "it looks like consensus is leaning this way"; that will be up to the contributers here. Try to be patient, and WP:Assume good faith; things may take a while to resolve here, and while not everyone will get what they want, the article will progress if everyone keeps cool. The only immediate recomendation I have is that nothing be introducted that cannot be appropriately and clearly referenced from reliable sources, and that two competing reliable sources be given equal weight in the article and, if needed, simply described as contradictory. If baseline sourcing and fairness are maintained as the standard by all involved here, there will be less cause to disagree. Best, --Pgagnon999 (talk) 21:19, 22 February 2008 (UTC)


 * It looks like you added to your previous post (above), Jonesbig, so I will respond to that expansion here. I agree with you in that if you have reliable sources to support such a particular claim than it should indeed be included here, as long as the sources are indeed reliable and readily verifiable as such. However, if there are other reliable sources that claim the opposite, then the article should reflect such inconsistency by fairly demonstrating both within the article. My recomendation at this point:
 * Write up a revision of part of the article (don't re-write the entire article, let's take it one piece at a time) and post it here along with sources to back it up.
 * Let others comment on it and provide contradictory references, if any are available. Adjust based on commentary and suggestions.
 * If there are no contraditory references, then there is no reason not to include the revision in the article.
 * If there are contraditory references, then your revision should be re-written to reflect such ambiguity, and that revision is what should be posted in the article.
 * --Pgagnon999 (talk) 22:44, 22 February 2008 (UTC)

A Fair and Just Listing For Purdue's Chapter and This TNE Article in General I think what is fair for this article is nicely articulate in the portion that I highlighted as "final proposal": 1)Chronological listing of all chapters according to assumed founding dates, for mere organization. 2) Only assumed founding dates for each chapter listed- since we don't really know that all of those supposedly closed chapters are, indeed, officially defunct. 3) The 3 point statement accepted by Bluegold based on alpha records, general acceptance, and the neutral Daily Illini source. 4)Bluegold's original sourced contributions returned.

I believe that this would create a fair and objective TNE article.Jonesbig (talk) 23:07, 22 February 2008 (UTC)
 * I don't mean to be a pain here, but could you possibly consolidate your proposed revision here instead of just referring us to the backlog of this long talk page? Keep in mind, however, that information must be supported by reliable sources, not assumptions. If you don't have reliable sources of information regarding founding dates, then I don't see how such dates can be included. Anything BlueGold has dug up that is referenceable is appropriate, but, again, I'm not sure what you mean by "general acceptance"; that appears too fuzzy. If you have referenced material, good; but you'll never get unreferenced assumptions into this article, like it or not. best, --Pgagnon999 (talk) 01:32, 23 February 2008 (UTC)

"1) Purdue University's chapter of TNE has been recorded as being both the "Alpha Alpha" chapter and "Indian Alpha" chapter, with the state alpha classification also fully recognized within the records of the Alpha chapter of Wesleyan College." "2) Purdue's chapter of TNE is generally accepted to have been founded in 1882, a year that also marks the 50th anniversary of Yale University's Skull and Bones." "3) Purdue's chapter of TNE is also recorded within Alpha records to have had a unique relatioinship to their own campus society called Skull and Crescent, a society that may have been linked to a Midwest order also recognized by some at the University of Illinois."

The Purdue chapter is listed in the article as having also been known as Indiana Alpha. And having been founded in 1882. The 'state alpha classification' was not fully recognized by the rest of the society, or at least that is not a conclusion that could be reached from the society website, quite the opposite. There is no reason whatever to include the 1882 is 50th anniversary comment because, as has been noted several times on this page already, no one has yet to provide any verifiable link connecting the group at Purdue with Yale or Skull & Bones. As soon as anybody can provide any verifiable citation to a legitimate third party source, it should go in. One might as well note that it was the hundredth anniversary of the Treaty of Paris. The article as it now stands states that the Purdue chapter died in 1992. That is actually in conflict with the society website which shows the Purdue chapter as dead in 1931. That's an unresolved conflict already. If the page were open to editing, I'd tag that reference, and when a citation could not be provided to substantiate the claim, I'd roll it back to 1931. Not only is there no legitimate Theta Nu Epsilon at Purdue since the 30's, there is no record of anything at all at Purdue except for the Sophomore/Junior honorary society called Skull & Crescent. If anyone disagrees, let them provide verifiable citation to a legitimate third party source.129.133.124.194 (talk) 06:12, 23 February 2008 (UTC)


 * The three points already accepted by Bluegold is what is fair and to be placed for Purdue within this article. There is absolutely no reason for me to rewrite what to include for Purdue's chapter after it has been explained and accepted by Bluegold to be placed within the article already. The Wesleyan outfit is desperately trying any means possible to control the page to suit their own vanity, or to bring up bogus points- clarification has already been given about all points, and yes, for an organization who is supposedly to have a link to Skull and Bones, it is worth to point out that 1882 is also the 50th anniversary of Skull and Bones, vs. the 100th anniverary of the Tready of Paris which has no relationship to the society of TNE what so ever. Any arguemnt for The Alpha establishing dates, is also mute, especially when even in this Wikipdia article it confrims that no dates are clearly established for even legitimate chapters. General acceptance are the only official dates, and Purdue's 1882 has been generally accepted as such for a long time, except for your Alpha's desperate attemps now to change their acceptance of it. Wesleyan is just trying desperately to control the history of TNE becasue they know that they are an upstart and have legitimacy pronblems in establishing themselves as the governing Alpha, and they are afraid of Purdue taking over that position- some issue they need to deal with for themselves- not Purdue's problem. We demand what has been already accepted by Bluegold to be placed within the article- there is nothing more to say, and if the fair and objectively accepted 3 point description that has already been accepted by Bluegold is not placed within this article- this article will have many more years of problems to follow. It is now time for Wikipedia to step up and take action too, or was this just another "smoke and mirrors" resolution with no action to ever take place. The 3 points already accepted by Bluegold to be placed in, is what is right thing to do! Those points have already been explained with reference, and it is the only fair conclusion to be drawn. There are no verifiable dates for any chapters, excpet what is generally accepted- so Alpha can make up what ever they want about any date. The official date for Purdue is 1882 by their chapters recognition, and it has already been generally accepted on this page as such for a long time. Demanding what is fair for Purdue's chapter is what is right to do. That is all that can be said- I also want to point out about the unfairness of changing the page now to reflect Wesleyan's perspective as well, after it was blocked- it also removed many fully cited points too, so it is time for Wikipedia to take action instead of just being talk and being bullied by a rogue group- nothing more can really be said from Purdue or anyone else arguing in favor of Purdue- so Wikipdia, do something about this! Why was Bluegold's cited information also allowed to be removed! Enough people have entered this conversation, Purdue's chapter does have rights!Jonesbig (talk) 15:16, 23 February 2008 (UTC)


 * A few things bear mentioning here:
 * First, it seems more than a few editors here would do well to read WP:Conflict of interest. You may be too close to this topic to write about it. If you are, as it seems, representing your chapter, you are probably way too close to this to be objective.
 * I wouldn't expect "demands" for inclusion of material here to be taken very well by Wikipedia editors and administrators. This article is currently protected indefinately; the only way that will change is if those editing here can work to come to consensus. . .and that involves compromise, WP:civility, and the practice of the assumption of good faith.
 * No new material will get into this article in the foreseeable future unless consensus is met and references are provided. One can rail against this all one wants, but doing so will not change that reality.
 * "General acceptance" is not a criteria of notability for Wikipedia, like it or not. I wouldn't expect that to change anytime soon, regardless of how unfair it is to your chapter.
 * Instead of attacking competing editors here with accusations, you may choose to participate in this talk page in a way that is more constructive. That's currently the only path available if you want to see this article improved. Fairness will be extended to you and all editors here. If you have information that you think should be included here, again, I invite you to write it up and provide solid references for it, so that others may comment and work toward consensus changes. I don't really care who writes it. . .if you would like BlueGold to do so, ask him/her. I will be glad to support anything that is objective, neutral, well referenced, and that does not rely on original research and nebulous claims of "general acceptance."
 * Finally, if you don't feel like you are receiving justice here, you may take this into dispute resolution; see WP:RFC.
 * Or you may continue to work here with a little more patience.
 * Best, --Pgagnon999 (talk) 00:44, 24 February 2008 (UTC)

Purdue has a chapter? (References say it was dead in 1931, or at least 1992, and dead is dead.) Please provide references to verifiable citations. Purdue has some link to Skull & Bones? (They were different societies.) Please provide references to verifiable citations. Bluegold has been made an arbiter of this issue? (I don't see how he could be called neutral.) Please provide references to verifiable citations.129.133.124.252 (talk) 00:18, 24 February 2008 (UTC)

Where is the evidence to say that it died in 1992? Why should I provide references to say that there was a link to Skull and Bones, when in the 3 points ALREADY accepted by Bluegold- the statement was Purdue University's chapter of TNE was founded on 1882, a date that also happens to be the 50th anniversary of Skull and Bones- it is already common knowledge that Bones was founded in 1832. You just got called for your earlier statement about bringing up a neutral source, you did not think one could be found, and one has been delivered with the Daily Illini- and now you are scrambling to find another avenue of refutation. This argument will never end- because we have established three points that even Bluegold has accepted- now you upstarts can be fair and let Purdue be recognized for the three little points that they deserve to be recognized for, or you can continue to be cry babies for not having everything your way. I am also curious, is the mighty Alpha chapter nothing more than two loosers sitting in a college dorm overlooking their webpage- is that the extent of your chapter? How come no one else is coming to the defense of the great Alpha chapter? So let me make this easier for everyone:

'''NO CIVIL RESOLUTION WILL EVER BE ACCOMPLISHED. THERE IS NO POINT FOR TALKING ANY MORE'''. These Alpha boys aren't arguing rationally, there are arguing for vanity, Bluegold has already accepted the 3 points, because he is rational. How can anyone continue to argue with ignorance, you can't. Therefore:

As soon as the page opens up it will be changed- Otherwise, it will stay flagged the way it is forever. That's it! That's the end result! Post whatever you want from this point forward, there will be no responseJonesbig (talk) 01:42, 24 February 2008 (UTC)


 * The supreme irony here is that we have supposedly "secret" fraternities desperately fighting over how their chapters are portrayed in a public medium (this article). With all due respect to consensus efforts on this talk page, I have to admit that I find great humor in this situation. --Pgagnon999 (talk) 15:22, 24 February 2008 (UTC)

The claim that the Purdue Chapter lived up to 1992 was made by one of the Purdue people posting here in the wikipedia article, and it was a change they put into the article. The only source that has been found to substantiate any of your claims is that someone from Illinois MAY have been a faculty advisor to a different society, Skull & Crescent, which itself MAY have been a society set up for T.N.E. chapters leaving T.N.E. (I say MAY because no one has been able to see the link.) That did nothing to provide support for any of your claims. The cite had nothing to do with Skull & Bones, Theta Nu Epsilon, or anything at Purdue. If you have any links or citations to support your claim that there is any living chapter with members at Purdue, or that it did not die in 1931, or that there was any special status for the Purdue chapter, or that there ever was any link between Skull & Bones and Purdue, or that Skull & Crescent was anything other than a Sophomore honorary society; please feel free to post them. This is for a 77 year period, there must be something. As to this anniversary date, please feel free to post to any verifiable third party source why that is at all relevant, or that Skull & Bones ever celebrated any anniversary of any kind by creating a chapter or creating any special relationship with any other society, (a highly improbable idea in the first place), or that it ever created a chapter or did any such thing on any periodic basis whatever, whether it be nine, fifteen or 32 years or anything else, or for its own centennial, or for the centennial of Yale, or anything at all like that ever. Skull & Bones is a well known, frequently written about society, it is closely watched: doubtless you will be able to find something solid, legitimate, and on point to support your claim.129.133.124.252 (talk) 22:30, 24 February 2008 (UTC)

Note: Pgagnon999 has not been appointed moderator of this discussion. Neither has BlueGold73. And as for what BlueGold73 'accepts' we should allow BlueGold73 to speak for him or her self.129.133.124.252 (talk) 22:35, 24 February 2008 (UTC)


 * No kidding; no one has claimed to be a "moderator." Wikipedia is run by consensus, as I've said many times. However, anyone here can suggest solutions to the deadlock here, and attempt to rein in some of the rabid bickering going on on this talk page. Your input in resolving such bickering, 252, is welcome, as is Jonesbig's, or anyone else's for that matter. Nonetheless, as I have said to Jonesbig, anyone editing here who has close connections to Theta Nu probably is too close to this topic to remain objective WP:Conflict of interest (and also see WP:own). Changes will be made to this page as suggested by consensus of editors, based on solid references, and forwarded to a Wikipedia administrator. A single dissenting editor with conflict of interest will not change that. That is the Wikipedia way. As I said previously, I will support any new material that is solidly referenced. By that, I mean that I will forward such material or support the forwarding of such material to admin for inclusion in the article. I do not need to be a "moderator" to do so. Best, --Pgagnon999 (talk) 00:38, 25 February 2008 (UTC)

One can try to pre-emptorially argue that any poster here is too close to the topic, but I don't think anyone not close to this topic will care about it one way or another. There are other standard dispute resolution wikipedia policies. You might want to familiarize yourself with them, and follow them rather than the course you describe above.129.133.124.252 (talk) 00:53, 25 February 2008 (UTC)


 * I'm quite familiar with them, thanks. I have even suggested such an option to Jonesbig, above. You, too, are welcome to use such options if you disagree with a consensus change adopted by other users here. As for who cares about what on Wikipedia, I don't think it is very productive to guess about others may or may not care about. "Pre-emptive" seems to be the key word here, though, as no clear, referenced revisions of this article have so far been suggested. So, until that point, you and I have no real reason to be in disagreement. In fact, looking through the material above, it looks like we are mostly in agreement with regard to principle at least. My only concern with your edits here--and it is a concern, not an accusation--is conflict of interest. Best of luck, --Pgagnon999 (talk) 01:01, 25 February 2008 (UTC)

There's a problem with this whole discussion. Perhaps the society's website was not clear. The few years that the Purdue chapter claimed it was the Indiana Alpha were in the 1890's. Later, when it was made a legitimate chapter of T.N.E., it abandoned that name and was simply the Alpha Alpha chapter. Check the official lists of chapters published in the society periodical, The Sophomore, inside the front cover, starting in 1915. In the 1910s, 20s, and 30s, it was simply an ordinary chapter of T.N.E., and made no claim to being anything else. Any claim to anything else was willingly dropped by Purdue for decades, and would have had to have been for it to have been accepted by the rest of the society. These Purdue posters are making claims that members of the Purdue chapter itself did not make. It just doesn't make basic sense.4.245.230.199 (talk) 03:23, 26 February 2008 (UTC)


 * Possibly so. New material backed up by solid references would establish their claims, if such evidence is available; so far, nothing solid enough. That, I suspect, is the trouble with articles such as this; a truly secret group generally avoids publicity, thus the dearth of reference material. It will be interesting to see if someone digs something up; outrage is a strong motivator.--Pgagnon999 (talk) 03:54, 26 February 2008 (UTC)

The Sophomore is publicly available through most university libraries, just not online. Several people here have cited to it here in the past. Theta Nu Epsilon is not a truly secret group. No more secret than Phi Beta Kappa or the Elks.129.133.124.252 (talk) 05:48, 26 February 2008 (UTC)


 * Then perhaps this should be removed from the article: "The society has maintained a reputation of secrecy largely based on the lack of verifiable records." --Pgagnon999 (talk) 13:52, 26 February 2008 (UTC)


 * The statement about TNE being no more secret than Phi Beta Kappa or the Elks is completely incorrect. It's even a well known fact that Phi Beta Kappa became a non-secret honor society after the Harvard chapter publicly disclosed the fraternity's secrets in 1831 during a period of strong anti-Masonic sentiment.  TNE has never publicly disclosed its ritual or secret works, on a chapter level or national level.  TNE's unofficial motto "little is known, and what's known is kept secret" didn't just arise from nothing.  If TNE didn't have secrets, then outsiders wouldn't have been questioning its association with the KKK out of ignorance.  Not only did outsiders have little insight into the inner workings of the society, but even within the society itself the right hand doesn't know what the left hand is doing.  This was the case 100 years ago, and it continues to be today, as evidenced by the controversy here and the significant number of chapters that fail to associate with the Alpha.  As far the naming conventions of the Purdue chapter, I'm inclined to agree with poster 4.245.230.199.  I have numerous copies of society publications in my possession, including some of The Sophomore, and from all indications in that publication, while the Purdue group was founded separate and apart from the chapters of the national organization, once it was brought into the fold of the national organization, it adopted the Alpha Alpha name, and there was no dispute to that at the time. BlueGold73 (talk) 04:36, 28 February 2008 (UTC)

Inaccurate as to Phi Beta Kappa. Several chapters of Phi Beta Kappa remained 'secret' well after that; but that's hardly relevant here. And "little is known, and what's known is kept secret" is NOT the motto of Theta Nu Epsilon. Check the society's website, it isn't there. That IS the motto of a bunch of pretended chapters of Theta Nu Epsilon that don't know the initiation, the principles, the signs of recognition, or the purpose of the society, and who spend their time enganged in activities that are an embarassment to the actual society. See, for example, the links at the end of the article as to the activities of the Nebraska chapter.129.133.124.194 (talk) 06:31, 29 February 2008 (UTC)


 * Quick jump over to the PBK article and hijack their work there too because you are obviously all knowing. If by "well after that" you mean for another decade or two then sure, and it's not like the telephone or internet were around at the time, so it's quite conceivable that some chapters would keep on keeping on for awhile after the change.  But back to the topic at hand - that motto, which I clearly noted was "unofficial", has been around for many decades.  It's not something merely used recently by a few groups that don't associate with the Alpha chapter.  The society as whole doesn't even have a website.  Just because the Alpha chapter has some information hosted on another literary society's website, doesn't make it the website of the society.  And now they move it to a dot com and that makes it more legit?  Whatever.  I'd have to dig through some old documents and publications, but I can find instances of times when that motto was used by legitimate groups.  And if you want to complain that some of the midwestern groups like Nebraska are an embarrassment to the actual, maybe it's time you started actually learning about the history of the society instead of just what happened at Wesleyan or what name the Purdue group should be known by.  As a whole, TNE was known far an wide as a bunch of troublemakers.  That is the extent of the society's legacy.  That is the reason why so many other national fraternities expressly banned their members from joining TNE.  The actual purpose of the society as it was founded died over a hundred years ago.  Regardless of whether or not Nebraska knows the initiation, the principles, the signs of recognition, they are probably most in line with what the society has been known for throughout the 1900s.  BlueGold73 (talk) 14:03, 29 February 2008 (UTC)


 * Remark I'm wondering if all involved here might keep things civil and professional and drop the tone a notch. Escalation in rhetoric will not resolve anything, as past disagreements have clearly shown.--Pgagnon999 (talk) 17:00, 29 February 2008 (UTC)

You seem to be trying to make this a dispute between many unidentified chapters and the Alpha Chapter. That is not true. The only chapters that claim to be legitimate chapters of Theta Nu Epsilon are all associated in a National Organization, and that National Organization is led by the Alpha Chapter. That national is not simply a website. Berkeley is a senior society formed from, but not a continuation of, the Theta Nu Epsilon chapter, and Berkeley has no quarrel with the Alpha Chapter. The same for Alabama. The Kansas and Nebrasks groups admit they are illegitimate. No one has been able to post a cite to any legitimate third party source that there is any other groups at all. There is certainly no other group that claims to be the legitimate continuation of Theta Nu Epsilon. This comment "As a whole, TNE was known far an wide as a bunch of troublemakers. That is the extent of the society's legacy." is entirely untrue, and the National has provided ample citations to newspapers, yearbooks, college and university histories, webpage after webpage of similar material, that establish that that was not the case, that the society was of an entirely different character, has continued as the same, and is so today. You cannot make the claim you have made without providing some verifiable third party citations that directly refute the cited material available on that website. For several weeks this has been a debate between a real organization that everyone admits exists and a phantom competitor that no one can show exists. I am more than willing to continue the discussion on these terms, because it is obvious how such a dicsussion must conclude.129.133.124.252 (talk) 20:50, 1 March 2008 (UTC)

The phrase, 'little is known and what is known is kept secret', (aside from not making a bit of sense whatever), only shows up in a Google search associated with the Alabama chapter which also includes material John L. Louderback disseminated on the Alabama campus. (And a minor reference or two that are dated after that period.) Whether Louderback got the phrase from Alabama, or he pushed it on Alabama, that is the extent of it. It does not appear to have really been the motto of *anyone*.129.133.124.252 (talk) 20:53, 1 March 2008 (UTC)


 * Here's a few excerpts for you. But if you're right, there's no truth to any of these allegations that TNE members were trouble makers and the chapters had less than positive reputations on a great many campuses.
 * From Our Journey of Brotherhood: Sigma Phi Epsilon's First Hundred Years (1999): "'Another unusual case was that of an Ohio Northern University chapter belonging to Theta Nu Epsilon,a loosely organized national fraternity with a reputation for unsavory conduct. The chapter petitioned to join Sigma Phi Epsilon, even though most fraternities shunned Theta Nu Epsilon and its members....Theta Nu Epsilon continued its errant ways, even though attempts were made to reform it in the twenties. Fifty years of free-swinging notoriety had opened the floodgates, and unauthorized chapters kept surfacing to perpetuate a debauched legacy. What scandal could not finish,the Great Depression and World War II did.In the early forties,the last two chapters of Theta Nu Epsilon were quietly absorbed by Alpha Kappa Pi,and the “bad boy fraternity” faded into history.'"
 * From The Scroll of Phi Delta Theta (1898) regarding TNE:
 * "'its initiatory escapades are unmanly and undignified.'"
 * From The American Education Review (1910):
 * "'Theta Nu Epsilon has been recognized for a number of years as a pernicious and parasitic organization.'"
 * From the Alumni Quarterly of the University of Illinois (1913):
 * "'It is perhaps not necessary here to discuss the danger lying in a secret organization of immature under-classmen, whose main idea is to develop at any cost class spirit of the most harmful kind, and to get control of class politics, with whatever graft or emoluments may be available. The watchword of the organization is, 'Get the job, and get all you can out of it,' whether or not you do service to the class or to the college."
 * From A History of the University of Rochester (1977):
 * "'Theta Nu Epsilon, instituted in 1878, flourished until 1900, when it was banned by the faculty because of mischief- making and hell-raising.'"
 * From The Purple, Green, and Gold of Lambda Chi Alpha (1922):
 * "Quite recently I talked to a member of my own fraternity who had been allied with the organization, and tried to get from him a definite statement as to what the alleged purpose of the organization is. All that I could say was that it offered the opportunity to stage booze parties."


 * From Wrongs of Passage' (2001):
 * "'The incident occurred in a drinking-oriented fraternity, Theta Nu Epsilon, that was not recognized by the school or by the NIC. Begun in 1870 at Wesleyan University as a fraternity for males who were already in a fraternity, Theta Nu Epsilon was often condemned by college presidents for its members' dissoluteness.'"


 * These type of allegations aren't common among fraternities today at the chapter level where many do have poor reputations. However, TNE is one of the only fraternities that has managed to build such a negative reputation on a national scale, as these passages clearly indicate.  Also please provide the necessary references to substantiate your claim that "the Kansas and Nebrasks groups admit they are illegitimate."  The Alpha website even contradicts the claim "The only chapters that claim to be legitimate chapters of Theta Nu Epsilon are all associated in a National Organization."  For example, in a recent news item "The Delta Lambda at University of Missouri at Kansas City contacted the Alpha Chapter to indicate that they are alive and well. Their chapter was last heard from in 1930. The chapter is still reckoned an independent entity at this time." So since they're still independent from the national organization, they're illegitimate by your statement. BlueGold73 (talk) 22:21, 1 March 2008 (UTC)


 * Bluegold, the above referenced information, if composed with an eye toward neutrality, would be important to include in this article. I'm wondering if you would consider writing it up. --Pgagnon999 (talk) 22:26, 1 March 2008 (UTC)

In the first place, the fifth quotation is clearly wrong as the Rochester chapter lived until the 1940's, and had a faculty sponsor the whole time. The first quotation is presumptively misleading since the fraternity Sigma Phi Epsilon admitted the members of Theta Nu Epsilon, and presumably they did not have questions about those Theta Nu Epsilon members' conduct. The second quotation refers to nothing specific. The third, fourth, sixth, and seventh are unclear what organization they are referring to. It is already established that there were legitimate chapters and illegitimate ones. There is nothing to suggest that these quotations refer to legitimate Theta Nu Epsilon rather than the illegitimate groups. The fourth quotation is likely to have been authored by a man who later, as Dean of Students for Illinois, became a member of the organization. Secondly, the quotations themselves are third party reports, or what would be equivalent to hearsay. Thirdly, being organizations which were at least on some level competitor organizations, they can hardly be seen as neutral reporters. These are biased reports, as would be the reports of any N.I.C. organization. But most of all, it would be inappropriate to defame, libel, or place in a false light, the legitimate organization with allegations about different organizations.129.133.124.194 (talk) 06:17, 4 March 2008 (UTC)


 * Sorry, this seems to me so much smoke & whitewash; slamming these sources and crying defamation will not hold water. Most of the refs. above are solid. Theta Nu would not be the first frat with a reputation. These sources indicate that a reputation does in fact exist and the it has been reported by a wide variety of sources as criticism of Theta Nu; whether it is deserved reputation or not isn't important. Theta Nu pledges may be helping little old ladies cross the street; that too, would be notable if it could be sourced. Such reputations, good or bad, can indeed be included as part of an article provided they are done so with WP:NPOV, are sourced, and are part of a balanced article. Consider criticism of Michael Moore or George W. Bush in Wiki articles, for instance.--Pgagnon999 (talk) 18:45, 4 March 2008 (UTC)

Pgagnon999 - This is exactly why I won't be writing anything up. I could keep going with more quotes like the ones I posted. Third party reports are exactly what this article has needed. The complete passages on the ones that are "unclear what organization they are referring," would easily clear up any doubt because they all specifically refer to TNE if I had quoted the whole passages. Just because the society says a chapter lived on to a specific date, doesn't mean it still existed as a legitimate registered organization. I could go on, but there's no point. I've been cited sources all along, including the ones that I had put in the article that were deleted. No matter what is cited, it will clearly just be deleted unless it is exactly in line with what Alpha wants to see in this article. I think we should blank this whole article, and anything that is to be re-added must be cited line for line, from third party sources. BlueGold73 (talk) 13:07, 4 March 2008 (UTC)


 * BlueGold I wouldn't get discouraged. The sources you have provided seem legitimate resources; I don't think the claims that they are spurious will hold up in WP:Rfc regardless what WP:Conflict of interest bias/ whitewashing attempts come your way. Wikipedia in general has a very low tolerance for that sort of thing. Just write it up NPOV & present it for inclusion. --Pgagnon999 (talk) 13:12, 4 March 2008 (UTC)

Legitimate sources would not be competitor organizations. Legitimate references would be those that were clear whether they were referring to Theta Nu Epsilon and not a fraudulent imitation Theta Nu Epsilon. That there were many fraudulent imitation Theta Nu Epsilons since the late 1800's is universally recognized. Recklessly posting defamatory material is a serious issue. This isn't a whitewash, it is simply accuracy. We can assume that as much as wikipedia does not support whitewashing, it also does not support the legally actionable torts of libel, defamation, or false light invasion. Under American law, any person or organization has the right to stop unfair representations of itself.129.133.124.194 (talk) 05:02, 5 March 2008 (UTC)


 * (revised)I fail to see how The American Education Review, etc. are "competetor organizations." These threats of supposed legal action post projections of defamation aren't intimidating, and I doubt that anyone on Wikipedia will take them so. Nothing reckless or defamatory will be posted; all will be NPOV and documented. Note that Theta Nu does not WP:Own this article; stransparent WP:COI attempts to take ownership of it by any faction of Theta Nu will likely be struck down fairly firmly in any kind of afc if the past is any indication of the tolerance among Wikipedians for such attempts. But all of this posturing is premature, as no one as of yet has forwarded a revision. Who knows? You might even like the revision. Although I do take your concerns about fraudulant Theta Nu's seriously, however, the title of this article is Theta Nu, not "those chapters of Theta Nu recognized by the xx chapter of Theta Nu"  or "Those chapters of Theta nu recognized by Theta Nu IP editors on the Theta Nu talk page." I see no real reason why this article cannot include information on any and all factions, recognized or not, as long as it does not make any claims that such-and such are "absolutely true and recognized by all" and provides balance where sources indicate potential information on false chapters or potential recognized chapters. Your organization's schisms and splinters do not need to be "figured out" by article editors; the information just needs to be put forward, whatever it is. The fact that folks outside of Theta Nu can't seem to tell the difference between chapters or can't be sure which are legitimate and which are not (by obfuscation/secrecy or quasi secrecy, whatever) is in of itself noteworthy and reportable. But until a revision is put forward, there's really no need in speaking further on any of these issues. --Pgagnon999 (talk) 06:50, 5 March 2008 (UTC)

No one has made any threats of any kind. There is no valid reason not to discuss the whole range of repurcussions from posting inaccurate OR misleading information. In addition, I do not think that that thinly-veiled suggestions of conspiracy contribute to the discussion. Trying to create a conflict where there is none is not constructive. Glad to see Pgagnon999 deleted his more hostile comments, (06:30, 5 March 2008 Pgagnon999) such as "You can make all the threats you'd like; at best it will get you an interesting, fruitless, and potentially humiliating afc debate. ...no one as of yet has forwarded a revision. So, until that shining day, perhaps you should save your legalisms for your pre-law class at Wesleyan, where they are more likely to impress, and quit the scare tactics." Wesleyan does not have pre-law classes. If you're looking for a venue where you can try to humiliate people, perhaps you can look for a different website.129.133.124.194 (talk) 00:38, 6 March 2008 (UTC)


 * Legal action: there is nothing to discuss, as there is a) no revision; b) no intent on the part of anyone here to post anything that would be considered truly defamitory. c) Your indication that the examples posted by bluegold are defamitory=legal action seems intended to discourage others from contributing here, at best, WP:own at worst. As for humiliation, none was intended; I became carried away with my own cleverness & withdrew the previous comments with (revision) indicated at the top of the post to indicate that a withdrawl had taken place. Reason: for the purpose of communicating in a more productive way/ reduce conflict here. In that vein, I have little else to say. See you at the revision. P.S., by the way, you are starting to sound a little bit like a previous contributer who has been blocked for an extended period of time. Hmmmm. --Pgagnon999 (talk) 00:46, 6 March 2008 (UTC)

You can post allegations about my conduct, your hostile conduct is apparent in your own posted words. A truthful article is a fine thing, but there is no reason why the sincere work of good people needs to endure an attack article. The article as it has stood more or less for some time is very honest and fair when compared to any of the articles about hundreds of similar societies. For example, no one here hid the tasteless antics of the illegitimate Nebraska chapter or the more inflammatory allegations my major news sources.129.133.124.194 (talk) 04:11, 8 March 2008 (UTC)

74.68.115.155

 * These were just added by User talk:74.68.115.155 to an earlier part of this discussion. cut and pasted here so that they will not be overlooked.
 * x "A "fake return address" was not addressed to us right? Because neither am I sure of what a return address is outside of something placed on an envelope nor do I have ANYTHING to do with Purdue. They may be ok, I just don't know anything about them. The email account is valid so??? That aside I just want to reiterate that TNE Upsilon Upsilon NYU is still going on (including as an undergraduate institution). I also wanted to state that while we have no problems with anyone's efforts to draw us together there is clearly a dishonest effort not simply to claim or usurp the position of a "sole national coordinating body" but also to act as the arbiter of every other chapter's validity and to make rules on what chapters can and can't do.
 * I won't question the validity of the "wanna be chiefs", even those with a date discrepancy of the founding (something besides 12/5) and a break in the continuity of campus and alumni chapters. Conversely, there are a bunch of guys out there that have contacted us as a TNE chapter don't even know what TNE stands for (no, not just Theta Nu Epsilon). Rather than sniping in a public forum as some do, or faking when they really have a group that wants to affiliate, let's determine what's what as the first step to regularity.  Too bad you can't write some of the "calculus" on the comments or I'd tell you a time and place to meet if your wanted to settle this! lol Seriously guys, if you have a group let's look for ways to be cooperative. We've had success with that.  And interested groups- contact us and we'll tell you what's up.
 * With an equally intense desire we maintain an active interest and strive to foster better understanding. We should keep ever uppermost in our mind the aim of the organization. Just don't ask what the aim is! ;o)
 * Regards UUx - thetanuepsilon @ alumnidirector dot com x —Preceding  comment added by 74.68.115.155 (talk) 23:40, 7 March 2008 (UTC)

--71.184.3.72 (talk) 15:36, 8 March 2008 (UTC)

I don't know even what this is supposed to be. There is no "Alumni director" for an Upsilon Upsilon chapter, an NYU poster here months ago admitted there has been no chapter there since 1974, and that was only at best honorary since the 1940's. This is nonsense posted by some bored hoaxer who has nothing else to do.129.133.124.252 (talk) 22:04, 8 March 2008 (UTC)

I'm not going to get into it with this guy. He assumes because NYU closed a campus in 1974 that the chapter closed. This was all his surmising of why, according to him there was two simultaneously listed chapters at NYU. The rest is drawn from the usual approach he takes-"no one exists but us and we rule everything that doesn't exist". I'll let everyone look at the above back and forth to see where the obvious agenda and who needs to invalidate everyone else. He is doing a lot of work, is a pretty bright guy and we should be meeting on the level but he seems a little hostile and is a little free with words, especially unfounded characterizations. Several of you have contacted us at various other groups at our email, (thetanuepsilon @ alumnidirector dot com) We are not purporting to be the dictators or leaders. We are just linking up. Good luck, guys from Purdue and everywhere else. Keep in touch. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Livingwords (talk • contribs)
 * Note: Above user altered/disguised his signature & another . Fixed signature attribution. --Pgagnon999 (talk) 16:06, 9 March 2008 (UTC)

A legitimate NYU alumnus posted here Spring 2006 that NYU's chapter closed in 1972, which is why the date was changed in the main article. Even then, that alumnus was in contact directly with the National, and confirmed the same with more detail. The above posts are typical of Theta Nu Epsilon hoaxes with people coming out of the woodwork claiming to be Theta Nu Epsilon. The repetition of these claims is ultimately, quite boring.129.133.124.252 (talk) 00:29, 10 March 2008 (UTC)

"thetanuepsilon @ alumnidirector dot com" was one of the gag addresses by a Purdue poster in November. See post 03:29, 29 November 2007 66.65.75.81  The ISP address was a regular Purdue-posting ISP address. It seems that the Purdue hoaxster, having been disproven on that, is going to try again with another hoax about NYU.129.133.124.194 (talk) 00:47, 10 March 2008 (UTC)

And alumnidirector.com is an empty shell website.129.133.124.194 (talk) 00:48, 10 March 2008 (UTC)

Archive?
This talk page is growing rather long; would anyone object if I archived part of it? The last week seems most relevent to current conversation.--Pgagnon999 (talk) 05:33, 20 February 2008 (UTC)

I object. This same conversation has been had multiple times already. Clearing the page so it can be had several times more seems counterproductive. The nature of the debate previously is very instructive.129.133.124.252 (talk) 06:04, 22 February 2008 (UTC)
 * Fair enough. Let it stand until things are better resolved. --Pgagnon999 (talk) 20:39, 22 February 2008 (UTC)

Last Revision from BD412
It's incorrect. Should disambiguate to Eclectic Society (Fraternity), not what the last edit indicates. BlueGold73 (talk) 19:25, 18 March 2008 (UTC)

I guess this page will have alot of talk, but nothing will ever really result from it

 * This talk page has gone on so many tangents that will only confuse TNE subject matter- and no matter what is said or brought up in matter of sources- none of them will ever become part of the article.Jonesbig (talk) 15:09, 5 April 2008 (UTC)


 * Blue gold listed a number of sources talking about the reputaton of the group that never got placed within the article.Jonesbig (talk) 15:09, 5 April 2008 (UTC)


 * Not that it is worth anything, but here is another source from the university of illinois in 1923 that also states that many chapters went subrosa, therefore, well into the twentieth century there may have been several chapters fully active subrosa outside of Alpha governing or knowledge of them. Here is the link: http://www.library.uiuc.edu/archives/archon/?p=collections/controlcard&id=3359 Jonesbig (talk) 15:17, 5 April 2008 (UTC)


 * I think all cited info about the group, that can be proven, should be added without any concern.Jonesbig (talk) 16:36, 5 April 2008 (UTC)


 * I am also curious to hear other peoples' solutions to the problem of this page.Jonesbig (talk) 16:39, 5 April 2008 (UTC)

You barely cited anything. Purdue Chapter gave up any Indiana Alpha designation when it joined the legitimate society in the 20's. You may not have noticed, but after all their claims were shot down, some of the Purdue posters here then tried to fool people that there was another long lost living chapter at NYU, but in three posts on 10 March 2008, it was shown that their e-mail address "thetanuepsilon @ alumnidirector dot com" was false, didn't lead anywhere, and had already been offered as false backup for Purdue claims.

You also today inserted edits into the posts of other people on this page, changing what they said to reflect your opinions. That is not an ethical or forthright way to present your ideas.129.133.124.194 (talk) 03:14, 6 April 2008 (UTC)

And ---it's not up to the Wesleyan posters to prove that there wasn't anything at Purdue, it's up to the Purdue posters to show that there was. (And to do so through verifiable citations.)129.133.124.194 (talk) 03:24, 6 April 2008 (UTC)


 * This page is only talk about TNE not other societies that do not have correlation to TNE. Purdue only said that their chapter was a feeder group to Skull and Crescent- this is not even the point raised now anyway. The point is why has sourced info by Bluegold been removed as well as other legit 3rd party sources ignoredJonesbig (talk) 18:40, 6 April 2008 (UTC)

Which Skull & Crescent, the Sophomore/Junior honorary that has verifiable citations as a legit organization, or the imaginary fabulous one led by nobility and in possession of the secrets of the toe ring of the Pasha of Jaipur? There has been no links, cites, or anything verifiable posted by anyone from Purdue to substantiate any of their claims, even with posters almost pleading that they provide them. (Except for those that go to non-existent websites.) They claim a 77 year existence for a society that has never appeared in a newspaper, article, yearbook, history or anywhere else. Or, if not, please provide links and citations now :  129.133.124.194 (talk) 23:59, 6 April 2008 (UTC)


 * Is the link that I added to this last section not legit, and not a link that can be used for citation?Jonesbig (talk) 19:13, 6 April 2008 (UTC)

It doesn't say anything. Everyone already agrees that some chapters, even many, went independent (or 'sub rosa'). But that does nothing to show that anything happened at Purdue. Showing that something potentially could have happened does not show that something did happen. I repeat : ''it's not up to the Wesleyan posters to prove that there wasn't anything at Purdue, it's up to the Purdue posters to show that there was. (And to do so through verifiable citations.)''129.133.124.194 (talk) 23:47, 6 April 2008 (UTC)


 * Does it not only say that chapters existed sub rosa- you are going to tell me that Alpha knew about the workings of every chapter!Jonesbig (talk) 19:15, 6 April 2008 (UTC)


 * I think it is very clear to see that anyone that has come to this page, provided sources, and invested time in arguements, have all walked away seeing that no reasonable solution can ever be achieved when a page is controlled by a biased agenda. This article will be flagged forever, and on top of that, I think no one will really waste their time anymore with this discussion page. The last person of reason to contribute was Bluegold, nearly a month ago, and I just posted recently to see  what your response would be from a very legit link. With all do respect, I truly wish you the best because I think the current Alpha will need it and will have a very hard time receiving respect from any of the other TNE groups, when after all, aren't all TNE members meant to be brothers? Take careJonesbig (talk) 22:14, 6 April 2008 (UTC)

The Alpha Chapter is completely respected by every other group with even the most tenuous historical link to the society. The Alpha Chapter currently leads a number of chapters in a National Organization, the only National Organization there is, and it is the literal heir to the last previous generally recognized national organizaion. The Alpha Chapter enjoys positive relations with most all the currently existing organizations that are continuations of, or descendants of, chapters of Theta Nu Epsilon. Those it doesn't enjoy positive relations with, even those accept that the Alpha Chapter is exactly what it says it is, and that the National Organization is the one and only National Organization. The only people who disagree with that, is one or more people associated with Purdue, and even they state that any chapter they might have been a part of has been dead for decades; they also make all kinds of implausible, fanciful, and simply ridiculous claims that for close to a year they have never been able to substantiate. Theta Nu Epsilon is growing vigorously and is in better shape than it has been for fifty years, and that is due to the efforts of a few hundred people on a half-dozen university campuses.129.133.124.194 (talk) 00:13, 7 April 2008 (UTC)


 * If you say so (lol)!Jonesbig (talk) 00:05, 8 April 2008 (UTC)

Wikipedia is not about what you can say, it's about what you can show. If anyone could have shown citations for all these Purdue claims, then that would have been that.129.133.124.194 (talk) 05:18, 11 April 2008 (UTC)

Sockpuppetry and hoaxes
Hello, Per this sockpuppet report, and this checkuser request, User:Jonesbig, an editor who has made significant edits to this page, has been confirmed as an abusive sockpuppet/sockpuppeteer. The Checkuser (see bottom of WP:RFCU link) indicates this person has a long history of adding hoax material to articles; unfortunately, they also seem to have a history of adding legitimate information as well, so their changes can't just be blindly-reverted. I do not have enough knowledge of this particular subject to be helpful, but I suggest those of you who do, and regularly maintain this page, go back and review User:Jonesbig's additions, remove anything they've added that can't be sourced and verified, and add citations for anything that can be sourced but is currently unreferenced, to remove any suspicion of the legitimacy of the article.

They appear to be somewhat prolific, so if a new account shows up lobbying for re-insertion of any material you folks end up deleting as unsourced, I'd suggest being a bit wary, and insisting even more strongly than perhaps we usually do on verifiable, reliable sources for everything they try to add. They tend to cite "rare" sources that they have in their possession, so I guess emphasis on "verifiable".

I'm not checking each article I tag with this information, so if you've already noticed this misbehavior and dealt with it, feel free to mark this section resolved or something. --barneca (talk) 15:28, 15 May 2008 (UTC)

Concerns
Jonesbig is someone using a public account with the Chicago Public Libary. I don't know the details of this particular account, but there may be overlap between legitimate users on shared IP's and those who are not- or possibly non-legitimate users signing in on legitimate user's accounts. I will post at the CPL, for people using public terminals to create accounts on their own personal computers, rather than using shared IP's on a public computer.Thank you very muchGeniejargon (talk) 18:12, 15 May 2008 (UTC)

Questions
I have contributed to the collegiate societies page and was interested in this one. A few questions/comments:

1. Are there reliable sources on the TNE / Yale Skull and Bones connection? This is never mentioned in any of the books or writing about Skull and Bones. The groups at Yale never seemed to be focused on founding chapters at other schools. In addition, since Skull and Bones has always been a senior society, it seems odd they would form a sophomore society at another school. If this can't be sourced, it should be removed.

2. How many groups claiming to be TNE chapters are active today? It is difficult to tell from the list in this article.

3. It looks like representatives from Indiana and Wesleyan are debating on this talk page. Can members from any other chapter contribute?

-societyalum —Preceding unsigned comment added by 192.147.57.6 (talk) 19:41, 16 May 2008 (UTC)

1. The TNE/Skull & Bones connection is referenced in the local Wesleyan University publications in the references in the article, also in several non-referenced Yale publications. But for anyone at home without access to these university libraries, it is also evident in a comparison of the publically-used emblems of the society. The Wesleyan group actually used the Yale emblem and name for its first two years of its existence in the Wesleyan yearbook, (1870 & 71). This is also available at the Theta Nu Epsilon website.

2. There are NO other groups claiming to be Theta Nu Epsilon today, despite all the argument on this page. There are several organizations descended from Theta Nu Epsilon chapters, none of which claim to represent the society. Some of these use the name, most do not. Of those few that use the name, none claim to be anything but the local survivor of the larger organization. The one claimant is the Alpha Chapter at Wesleyan, which absorbed with its own descendant national in 1988 (i.e. that national which had been universally recognized as well as in Baird's, etc.)

3. There is no group at Indiana. Despite all the argument by sock puppet on this page, and all the Indiana proponents were able to claim was that they had a group until 1992. (Which would mean dead for sixteen years.) They were able to provide no citations to back this up. Everything else that could be cited showed that the Indiana chapter merged into a sophmore honorary in the 1930's, and that's all there was. This Indiana claim was related to an incredibly elaborate story involving stories about Italian nobility, Chicago high schools, Freemasonry, the presidency, families, etc., etc. it has involved more than a year of postings and the corruption of the information on dozens of wikipedia articles. A lot of that stuff is still posted.

I and others wasted a good bit of time debating with people who turned out to be one person who was simply making nonsense up out of their own head, either for the perverse joy of it, or because of some other psychological issue. We said at the time that this source was making no sense;-- that there were no sources for any of it, (aside from the spurious references that turned out to be red herrings themselves). We have ultimately been vindicated by the unmasking of Jonesbig and his many other names. But as a poster, I am certainly not going to continue to respect the claims for a Purdue organization when it's been shown several times over to have been a hoax. ---The hoax is dead, it never was particularly funny, let it go. 129.133.124.252 (talk) 03:18, 17 May 2008 (UTC)

I can say for the Alpha that, first, a specific list of chapters often cannot be provided since it can be a matter of interpretation. As of this day, Wesleyan, Missouri, Virginia, and New Mexico are legitimate chapters, and there are three additional places where the society is active. There are also additional places where there are ongoing negotiations with descendant locals; the National Organization tries to reunite any and all descendant locals it can. But we also know of places where undergraduates have simply made up a group and decided to claim they were Theta Nu Epsilon without any links whatever to anything; the National Organization of the Alpha Chapter obviously cannot accept this kind of behavior, and has caused all three groups to stop. If there is ever a question, you can always contact the National through the website. Secondly, moreover, we cannot post a list here in wikipedia since it would be an unverifiable claim.4.245.236.130 (talk) 13:41, 17 May 2008 (UTC)

Is the current TNE Alpha chapter, just one guy, Christopher Kylin?
I have noticed the article of Mystical Seven (Wesleyan) about how this Kylin individual tried to hijack that group and claim legitimacy- and now he has a chapter that is "non-secretive" as well as his attempts at reasserting himself as the national organization of TNE. This seems illegit. Does anyone know more about this. I am also enclosing a link.] .JoshLevine (talk) 18:54, 18 May 2008 (UTC)

Current membership is a few hundred, including a facebook group.129.133.126.108 (talk) 21:02, 18 May 2008 (UTC)

As the national puts people like JoshLevine out of business, there will be continually more aggressive personal attacks;---but these people only embarass themselves by their stunts. Goodnight, Josh Levine, wherever you are.129.133.124.252 (talk) 21:22, 18 May 2008 (UTC)

This is hilarious, first off, the article he cites does not support his claim, it just isn't what the article says. And second, there's no reference in the article to Theta Nu Epsilon.129.133.124.194 (talk) 01:42, 20 May 2008 (UTC)

There's no doubt that JoshLevine is the same as Jonesbig. This is just another sockpuppet attempt. He's been banned and is still addicted to posting in wikipedia for attention, so he has to come back.129.133.124.252 (talk) 01:42, 20 May 2008 (UTC)

When I was in college some lame ass students started an organization called TKE only they were not sponsored by TKE or the University. They called themselves a fraternity but they were nothing but a joke. The problem I had with them is that they were no different then the countless other individuals that have to f up everything for everyone because of their own personal short comings. You see secret societies have a purpose. You are selected to be a member because of certain traits you have both personally and professionally. You are the best and therefore get to be a part of the best. Now some idiot initiating others into my organization, that have no clue he is not associated in any way and is nothing more than a fake, pisses me off. I am a member of this organization and I don’t like Mr. Kylin’s website, Alpha B.S., his facebook, his claim to be a part of the 7’s or his claim to this organization. You can study all you want and claim to be whatever but you will never know the truth. You see some secrets you can’t find by buying old books. I was taped into this because I earned it. I worked my ass off and went through hell to wear that pin on my chest and I have the scars to prove it. You want to know the truth, we don’t have a website (that isn’t even a link to the “brother” section you idiot) and we don’t hang out on facebook. We don’t talk about it and we sure as hell don’t blog about it. You’re a joke and if you don’t stop you’re going to pay for it. You’re messing with some of the most powerful people in the world and playing a game that is not going to end will for you. As for all that are reading this and the postings of Mr. Kylin, just google him and you will find the truth. His claims to be a member of the 7’s, his fascination with the Mason’s, his study of secret societies, and even his blog. He is nothing but a big fan that has gone a little crazy and started believing he was a member. Probably got picked on a lot in school and no bids on bid day so he decided he would just take matters in his own hands. He has taken the name and started his own organization. Nothing more nothing less. Someone should really start a page about him. From what I have read online in just a short period of time he has been a part of several different secret society fakes and therefore has been a part of the history of such organizations. Everything he has written on this page should be taken down and Theta Nu Epsilon should be taken down from this website. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 98.169.112.81 (talk) 23:53, 2 November 2008 (UTC)

FOund this on another website...the truth always comes out in the end.

"Christopher Kylin ‘84 did extensive research into the histories of many of the fraternities and societies at Wesleyan. Kylin took a particular interest in the Mystical Seven and, along with a few of his friends, decided to refound the society, despite the fact that the senior society, which was rarely seen or heard from on campus, continued to exist... The Father of one of the members, Mark Mullen, bought the volumes in their entirety for $6,000 and donated them to the archives at Wesleyan University. Kylin stayed in Middletown for fifteen years after he graduated... In 1990 a dispute erupted between the Senior society and Kylin’s group over which was the legitimate Mystical Seven. In a series of Argus editorials the Senior society based its legitimacy on its long history and ancient traditions while Kylin argued that the Spirit of the Mystical Seven had been lost after the Civil War and that his group was an attempt to recapture this original "Mystic Soul".- History of the Mystic Seven, Benjamin Wyatt Greene

"Recently (Wesleyan Chapter of Theta Nu Epsilon) has gotten itself back on its feet again, asserting its position as a national organization. It has both female and male members, and has held annual cocktail parties, or actually martini soirees. It also has no building, so there is no question of dining clubs and the like. For the past two semesters it has tried to get off the ground with a larger event, but to no avail. No doubt it will be making headlines soon though, especially since the society and its members walk that line between decorum and trouble." -Christopher Kylin, The Wesleyan Review, May 1990 —Preceding unsigned comment added by 98.169.112.81 (talk) 02:40, 6 November 2008 (UTC)

Article's Problems
This article is not taking the bulk of its information from any 3rd party sourcing- and there are problems with non-verifiable chapter dates. Dates should be removed from each chapter listing since they are unverifiable. The article should also be flagged for the lacking of in-text citations.JoshLevine (talk) 23:30, 7 June 2008 (UTC)

The chapter list and dates are taken from Theta Nu Epsilon's own website. Virtually all wikipedia articles on organizations rely on that organization's own information, (either web or print). This is no different. None of the dates that are in the article have been challenged with the exception of your own utterly unbelievable assertions about a magic chapter at Purdue. (And all of your postings have since been thoroughly discredited.) The proper procedure is to challenge facts with facts. And there are plenty of warnings on the article already.129.133.124.194 (talk) 23:57, 7 June 2008 (UTC)


 * I do not care for a response from either Wesleyan or Purdue- I am looking for an objective response from someone neutral, or any of the other chapters of TNE- but considering that only you and a few Purdue supporters ever answer this page- it seems to suggest that there is not much to this society at all, just one or two guys, a fancy webpage, and a lot of smoke and mirrors.JoshLevine (talk) 00:47, 8 June 2008 (UTC)

1. You are the Purdue poster. 2. Your claims that the Alpha Chapter is all one person have already been disproven above, where you posted your ad hominem attack. There is a small but nicely growing society out of the remnants of the former organization; and you're not a part of it. All you've been able to do is attack this article with hoax after hoax for a year. That you have had nothing to do for all this time but that is pathetic.129.133.124.194 (talk) 01:01, 8 June 2008 (UTC)


 * 1) I am not affiliated with Purdue, TNE, or hoaxing 2) Nothing has been disproven or proven by anyone- just you and Purdue supporters saying conflicting things- Purdue's hoaxing accusations have not technically been proven- just sockpuppetry has. 3)I hear you making big claims for this growing society, but no one from this TNE group ever seem to answer this page, but you and a few Purdue supporters 4)I am very glad to not be a part of TNE- it is awful, filled with fraternity brothers attacking themselves, splinter rogue groups, and the racist "Machine" chapter 5) The only pathetic person is you with your rude and controlling remarks. 6) The only person that seems to not have anything better to do is you, since you are always watching this page to respond to it, the last and first time I was here to respond was last month. 7) I will not come to this talk page any more because there is no one here to discuss with but you, and nothing of value to gain by what you say. Therefore, I do not even care to hear your response, nor will I even be here when you do. JoshLevine (talk) 01:36, 8 June 2008 (UTC)

You posted the same thing as 65.141.156.85 (talk) 15:56, 31 January 2008 (UTC), now five months later, it's the same thing. If you have anything to cite to verifiable, legitimate sources, please do. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 129.133.124.194 (talk)

Entire Article Needs to be Revamped
From what I can tell from independent sources, Theta Nu Epsilon was founded at Wesleyan and expanded to several chapters over the decades. Many of these chapters have since folded. However, in my view, one of the biggest impacts of this organization have been the various "spin-off" chapters, some of which, including the organization at Alabama, have become quite notable. It is also apparent that a "national" organization under the Wesleyan chapter is trying to reassert control, but to an objective observer, since the national organization appears to have been created and died a number of times, I'm not sure what legitimacy it has. For example, organizations such as Alabama could continue be practicing Theta Nu Epsilon rituals. Overall, the article needs to be presented from a neutral standpoint without assuming the Wesleyan chapter is the final source on how the organization should be viewed or portrayed.

- societyalum —Preceding unsigned comment added by 192.147.57.6 (talk) 18:46, 10 June 2008 (UTC)

There is no national trying to "assert control". The national doesn't have to---there's nothing else left. The whole Purdue thing was made up. The poster Jonesbig, the several posters under 65.141.XXX.XX, JoshLevine, and a half dozen others, were all the same person, sockpuppetting away, and posting ridiculous nonsense for over a year. And it seems foolish to try to accomodate those views. There are a few organizations or groups descended from Theta Nu Epsilon, for example, there are a few fraternity chapters of other organizations that were Theta Nu Epsilon chapters originally, but we do not have articles on the history of individual fraternity chapters so far in Wikipedia. Alabama was originally a Theta Nu Epsilon chapter, but it isn't really now, and it has it's own Wikipedia article. (Alabama does not do the Theta Nu Epsilon initiation.) The national currently represents four chapters across the country, and expects to add as many as three more this fall. That's the whole of the society. That's what the article is about. And even the organizations or groups descended from Theta Nu Epsilon do not disagree with this view, (not even the infamous group at Nebraska, (which also does not know the initiation)). And no one has been able to cite to anything anywhere stating the contrary, and this after more than a year of being directly challenged to do the same. The national is legit, Wesleyan is legit, (it has a continuous existence, original everything, etc.). And by the way, Theta Nu Epsilon does ceremonies, not rituals; we're not a cult.

Ok then, someone in the article should list out the four chapters that the national currently represents, that's not clear in the article. Then we should add information on spin-off chapters, since they have a legacy. - societyalum —Preceding unsigned comment added by 192.147.57.6 (talk) 12:55, 11 June 2008 (UTC)

Excellent idea. They should be all listed. However, the National Organization is not going to post it's files on these matters. We have spent an extensive amount of time tracking down every possible survivor. In many situations, whether something is or is not descended from Theta Nu Epsilon depends on how one reads historical events. We hope to include as much of the remaining elements of the society as possible and do not wish to foreclose discussions with preliminary comments. Besides, anything we put out would be challenged on verifiability issues. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 4.245.128.111 (talk) 01:30, 12 June 2008 (UTC)
 * @societyalum - I completely agree with your points. The whole article should be rewritten from a neutral standpoint using information available from independent sources.  I've tried posting some their party sources in the past, but another editor always deletes them and says they're incorrect in the eyes of the Alpha chapter. BlueGold73 (talk) 17:23, 13 June 2008 (UTC)

That is not true. No one has ever said "they're incorrect in the eyes of the Alpha chapter". It simply hasn't happened. It would be in the record here if your claim was true. You fell for the Purdue story, which had absolutely no citable references, face it. The guy was sockpuppeting all over the place and got caught. His stories were a little short of insane. But saying the whole article should be rewritten from a neutral standpoint is like saying American History should be rewritten from the Confederacy's standpoint; they were in the wrong and didn't survive 1865. The same here. You wrote a few things that got deleted when the Purdue poster went on a rampage. You should be upset at him. Alabama has it's own article. If someone wants to write an article detailing Nebraska--which makes clear that they have no rightful basis to claim being Theta Nu Epsilon--fine. And as for "information available from independent sources", that's false. Where does anyone go for the dates for Beta Theta Pi chapters? Beta Theta Pi. Where do you go for dates for DKE? DKE. No one else keeps track of these things. NIC documents are not third party, but reprints from the society's own information. Look, if you want to challenge someone specific chapter date and have a citable reference for it, fine. But if you're just going to delete the list of chapters because it is based on what the society itself reports, then apply that standard to the rest of wikipedia and delete half the articles. The Marlon Brando article says he was born on April 3, 1924; does that have to be deleted because it was a self-reported date? Get real. How about adding at the top of the article "Everything in this article should be treated with extreme suspicion because we are convinced that the National Organization are utter liars in everything they say, (although we cannot find any reason to justify ourselves in this)."129.133.124.194 (talk) 23:12, 13 June 2008 (UTC)

Don't get lulled by BlueGold74. Read above. He launched into an aggressive attack on Theta Nu Epsilon. At the same time, he endorses the juvenile and outrageously offensive publications of the Nebraska group. He believes that Theta Nu Epsilon should continue on as an embarassment to the universities. That was never the purpose of Theta Nu Epsilon, and people who think that have never had a clue what the society was about. And never were members of a legitimate chapter. Theta Nu Epsilon is NOT about getting drunk out in a Missouri cornfield. If it was, it should have been abolished. BlueGold74 is a creature of the past, and he ought to stay there. Theta Nu Epsilon belongs to the members today, not some old coots that are lost in some faded memory of having a high time on grain alcohol. BlueGold74 is not interested in history, but in a warped nostalgia.129.133.124.252 (talk) 01:25, 14 June 2008 (UTC)
 * Resorting to personal attacks now? That's mature.  I never "fell for the Purdue story" either.  I stated numerous times that I wasn't getting involved in that issue.  The fact remains that groups using the TNE name have been and continue to cause trouble on college campuses.  To ignore that is an injustice to the article.  The majority of third party sources had indicated that TNE was seen by other fraternities as a "bad boy" fraternity, but when I tried to add information regarding this issue to the article it was deleted.  Other fraternities have controversies that are often addressed in their articles, so why can't we address TNE's shortcomings as well? BlueGold73 (talk) 01:37, 14 June 2008 (UTC)

I also don't endorse the antics of some of the Midwestern groups like Nebraska. I do however think it is worthwhile to note that these groups exist outside of the sphere of control of the Alpha chapter, and these independent groups are even more well known that those that Alpha claims have been made legitimate. They happen to be more well known because of the publicity they receive in regards to their "juvenile and outrageously offensive publications" BlueGold73 (talk) 01:41, 14 June 2008 (UTC)

There was no personal attack; describing what positions you take is not an attack. I will not have you miscontrue my posts to say I have engaged in personal attacks. The Purdue group was imaginary, that you still allow for its hypothetical existence is being 'taken in' by them. The Alpha Chapter does not "control" anything, it exists like a normal organization. The National represents four chapters. The National does not "control" Nebraska or have any relationship with it because the Nebraska group is not legitimate. Let them post a claim with verifiable citations to how they can be a part of a society that says they are not a part of. Other fraternities DO NOT have shortcomings addressed, nor do most organizations. Have you read any of the articles in Wikipedia? Nothing about wikipedia says that it was intended to be a threshing floor for all the issues and controversies in America. The items you tried to add were lost when the article had been trashed by Purdue nonsense, (i.e., blame them, stop insisting that Theta Nu Epsilon is conspiring against you). But it was only appropriate that it was lost. You took random accusations out of context and made no effort to distinguish between accusations against illegitimate bogus chapters at second rate universities and the legitimate chapters of an actual society. Reckless accusations by people doing exactly what you did almost sank the society once, we are not going to accept it again.129.133.124.252 (talk) 01:56, 14 June 2008 (UTC)

Any article on Theta Nu Epsilon would need to keep clear what the society was, (literally, what specifically the words 'the society' indicate). "The society" is the National & the Alpha. No other group contests that. There may be people who disagree with the National, but no can dispute that the National is Theta Nu Epsilon. The Alpha has its intact history, the current National is the legitimate successor to the last national in Baird's Manual. Even places like Alabama accept that the National is what it claims to be.4.245.239.26 (talk) 15:11, 15 June 2008 (UTC)

You want to back that up with something? Alabama has already called out the "alpha" boys when they tried to call two years ago. They were tested and failed. Don't say things you know nothing about. There is an Alpha chapter and they are active but they are not the people on this board. That’s why it’s a “secret society.”     —Preceding unsigned comment added by 165.125.144.16 (talk) 21:06, 3 November 2008 (UTC)

This whole debate is getting a bit ridiculous. We know of at least one organization, calling itself Theta Nu Epsilon at the University of Nebraska, is an organization that survives to this day and claims in its public writings that many chapters of the organization exist. Given that to a neutral observer, groups calling themselves Theta Nu Epsilon appear to exist outside the control of the national organization, these groups should be profiled in this article. In addition, the previous writers of this article claim that certain chapters were founded (like Nebraska) under the auspices of the national group and then say these chapters have died. However, we have evidence that many of these chapters exist in some form to this day. At the end of the day, to me, the impact of Theta Nu Epsilon on college campuses appear to extend well beyond the 4 chapters that claim to be affiliated with a national organization. To me, aside from the Wesleyan chapter which appears to be very prominent on its campus, other "former" TNE chapters such as Nebraska, Alabama, and maybe USC appear to be very impactful on their campuses. Therefore, we should note the controversy and discuss these groups in the article. I don't know if any other fraternity with these issues. -societyalum —Preceding unsigned comment added by 192.147.57.6 (talk) 19:23, 15 June 2008 (UTC)

> There hasn't been a chapter at USC in 50 years. Anyone who wants to post a verifiable cite to anything legitimate saying different, have at it. Even that chapter was wildly illegitimate, and never a part of the society. > Alabama has it's own page already. It is also referenced here. That seems to be more than enough. > I have suggested that if someone wants to write a new article for for this thing at Nebraska, go right ahead. Just make it clear that the group has no legitimate claim to the name it is using. The chapter there now was never legitimate. http://thetanuepsilon.com/13ChapLis/Indivpages/UNebraska.html > "I don't know if any other fraternity with these issues." Well, I don't know why Nebraska claims to be Theta Nu Epsilon when the society has made it clear that it does not want to have anything to do with it. These people (the ones in charge of that group) are essentially robbing students of dues and initiation fees to belong to something they're not a part of. I don't know why the University of Nebraska allows it. >I don't see why an article on one society should be made a vehicle for propaganda for other unrelated groups. The Mormon Church wikipedia article should be about the Mormon Church, and not the 'Waiting for Zion' ranch; in the same way, the Theta Nu Epsilon article should be about Theta Nu Epsilon, not some rip-off scam out at some university.129.133.124.194 (talk) 21:34, 15 June 2008 (UTC)

External links modified
Hello fellow Wikipedians,

I have just added archive links to 1 one external link on Theta Nu Epsilon. Please take a moment to review my edit. If necessary, add after the link to keep me from modifying it. Alternatively, you can add to keep me off the page altogether. I made the following changes:
 * Added archive https://web.archive.org/20070222154951/http://media.www.dailynebraskan.com:80/media/storage/paper857/news/2007/02/20/News/Tne-Publishes.Newsletter.Criticizing.Greeks-2729804.shtml to http://media.www.dailynebraskan.com/media/storage/paper857/news/2007/02/20/News/Tne-Publishes.Newsletter.Criticizing.Greeks-2729804.shtml

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Cheers.—cyberbot II  Talk to my owner :Online 07:32, 15 January 2016 (UTC)

Archive 1
Everything prior to March 15, 2009, moved to Talk:Theta Nu Epsilon/Archive 1. Virtually all the discussion was more than 3 months old.Drumfearn (talk) 00:17, 16 March 2009 (UTC)

Psi Chapter - The Original
Early yearbooks at Northwestern University (Evanston, Illinois) indicate the Psi Chapter of Theta Nu Epsilon was established as Northwestern University, June 1893. Fraternity colors were listed as "Black and Green" (as opposed to "Green and Black," as noted in the article's sidebar). Source: 1900 Yearbook. PlaysInPeoria (talk) 16:08, 24 March 2017 (UTC)