Talk:They Call Me Jeeg

Rationale for revision 1051875750 - added details to plot summary
Rationale for this revision after reviewing the film for accuracy: https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=They_Call_Me_Jeeg&oldid=1051875750

I made similar edits previously that were reverted; I have left out the likely more controversial edit from this latest revision to discuss separately, and hope the below timestamps and explanations justify the current changes.

Added details to drug smuggling scene: At 20:15, Sergio injures the man with the gun by repeatedly hitting his head against a pillar; at 20:25, while lying on the ground (still alive), the man shoots Enzo, knocking him off the building.

Added details to standoff at the Tiber scene: Starting at 01:24:15, Gipsy is shot multiple times, first while still holding Alessia as a shield, and then again a few seconds later while standing alone in front of Nunzia's gang.

Replaced slightly awkward word: "wears a Jeeg mask" didn't read quite right; "puts on a Jeeg mask" is smoother and also emphasizes that Enzo actively dons the mask in the scene as one of the last actions in the movie (01:47:50).

Added details to and changed language of tram scene: Starting at 01:05:15 with Enzo stopping the tram, Enzo apologizes and says he cares about Alessia a lot. Alessia then says she wants to go to her father, and Enzo says he will go with her. Modified the language to state the facts; whether or not Enzo has fallen in love with Alessia is subjective and not stated (and in my opinion lacking in unspoken evidence as well, but that's up for discussion). Mumontgomery (talk) 02:46, 26 October 2021 (UTC)

Categorization of sexual encounter between Enzo and Alessia
I previously submitted changes regarding the plot summary of the sexual encounter between Enzo and Alessia (among other changes), but they were reverted. Since it is a sensitive topic, I would like to explain my proposed changes and open a discussion.

The article currently says "Alessia and Enzo grow closer and have sex, which reminds Alessia of her past trauma." In the previous revision which was reverted, I changed this language to say Enzo rapes Alessia.

Evidence that the sexual encounter is unwanted:

- After initiating several extremely chaste kisses, Alessia stops being an active participant while Enzo begins kissing her deeply, presses her against a wall, and fondles her breasts [01:01:00]

- While Enzo hikes up her dress and pulls down his pants, she tells him to slow down [01:01:15]

- After Enzo starts penetrating her, she tells him he is hurting her [01:01:25]

- The camera pans close to Alessia's face as she stares, dead-eyed, her body limp for the rest of the encounter [01:01:30]

- Alessia is quiet and upset in the scene immediately afterwards; Enzo appears troubled [01:02:00]

- Alessia tells Enzo to fuck off and asks if he is not ashamed [01:02:45]

- Alessia accuses Enzo of making her dirty [01:06:25]

- The Italian version of this article states that it is Enzo who wanted sexual intercourse, while Alessia was passive in the encounter, and that she is disappointed and humiliated after suffering the violence

I do not think it is fair to say that they have consensual sex and that Alessia is only reminded of her past trauma; based on these points it seems more accurate to say Enzo is inflicting new sexual trauma on her. Would be interested to hear other thoughts on this. Mumontgomery (talk) 02:59, 26 October 2021 (UTC)
 * You can't really interpret a primary source on English Wikipedia; this is known as original research. What's supposed to happen is that we dispassionately describe the factual elements of the plot without interpretation, but that's an ideal that's virtually impossible to live up to.  So, there's always going to be a bit of interpretation.  When it comes to sex, it becomes even worse because viewers will interpret scenes differently.  For example, I'll write a plot summary about someone who "murders" another person, and another Wikipedia editor will change it to "kills".  But it was obviously murder, and "kills" only serves to blunt what happened on screen and make the character more sympathetic.  Is it worth fighting over it?  Was the fictional character charged with murder?  Did anyone say the word "murder" in the film?  These are questions one might ask.  Then, one would go to the reliable sources to see what they say.  Did professional film critics say that it was "rape" or that it was "sex"?  Was there even any discussion at all?  In a popular American film from the 1980s, one character tricked another into having sex.  The film laughs it off as a harmless prank.  25 years later, some professional film critics reassessed the scene as rape.  That went into the Wikipedia article, which now includes both the contemporary and modern interpretations of the scene. NinjaRobotPirate (talk) 07:43, 26 October 2021 (UTC)
 * This makes a lot of sense, thank you for the links and explanations. It sounds like the points I provided for redefining the sexual encounter are more suited for a debate over the movie than for determining what to put in the Wikipedia article. The majority of reliable sources for the movie are likely in Italian, and I am not a native speaker, so I'm not sure how successfully I will be able to research what critics (or other parties involved in the making of the movie) said about this scene--but I can try.
 * That said, I'm not sure the current description of the scene properly relies on facts and cited sources either. There is no factual evidence or source that shows the encounter reminds Alessia of her past trauma; that's an assumption and one way to interpret the way she acts in the scene. (Also, saying only that the characters "have sex" strongly implies, to me, that it's completely and obviously consensual; that may be a language nuance specific to me, I'm interested to hear other views on that.) I realize sex in media--and media in general--involves a lot of personal interpretation, and it's pretty much impossible to describe a movie totally in facts, but I wonder if there's a middle ground here.
 * Thanks for your patience, I am pretty new to thinking in the Wikipedia-editing mindset. Mumontgomery (talk) 01:49, 27 October 2021 (UTC)
 * Yeah, it'd help if we had a native Italian speaker. I agree with you that the current plot seems interpretive in the opposite direction.  Something like you suggested (that Enzo desires sex with her, and she passively submits after asking him to slow down) would probably be the least interpretative description. NinjaRobotPirate (talk) 05:07, 27 October 2021 (UTC)