Talk:Thierry Henry/Archive 2

Userbox
Ive created a user box if anyone wants to use it to say they think Thierry Henry is the best footballer in the world :)  .   Asics    Talk 18:20, 7 January 2007 (UTC)

Barcelona section Pounds & Euros transposed. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 68.149.14.78 (talk) 02:34, 3 September 2007 (UTC)

Runners-up medals
These are still honours and should be represented as such in Henry's list of achievements.

GA
this article is certainly capable of attaining GA class if references are included, formatted and the trivia section incorporated into the body. Chensiyuan 02:49, 19 March 2007 (UTC)


 * the whole body on his Arsenal career is in very bad shape. shall do something about it. Chensiyuan 10:08, 22 March 2007 (UTC)


 * did quite a bit of tidying up. shall stop for now. will add parts about his teammates (how they contributed to Arsenal's style of play) later, as well as expand on his Arsenal career -- a more season-by-season-esque breakdown perhaps. Chensiyuan 11:19, 22 March 2007 (UTC)


 * calling for more free TH images!! Chensiyuan 13:39, 22 March 2007 (UTC)


 * more things to do: (1) develop a proper section on his early life, e.g. his parents/siblings, what he did when he was young; (2) develop a proper section on his life outside football, i.e. current family and maybe his commercial endorsements/affiliations; (3) integrate the trivia section into the article, where possible; (4) maybe even a player profile section e.g. his speed, ability to provide assists, take free kicks... Chensiyuan 14:31, 22 March 2007 (UTC)


 * the part on Luis Aragonés is somewhat overtreated in the article, especially when most of the info did not concern Henry directly. but no harm maintaining it i suppose. i also cannot find a source on the claim that Henry won 4 Barclays player of the year award. Chensiyuan 11:24, 23 March 2007 (UTC)


 * Hey Chensiyuan. Excellent job there with all those changes you did. It made it quite easy for me just to swap around some of the sections, integrate some text here and there, and add a small section at the start of the article. So anyways. I've renamed a bunch of headers, so the article looks quite different now - but the content is quite similar. Just more streamlined, really. What else do you think could be improved? -GilbertoSilvaFan 17:57, 24 March 2007 (UTC) P.S. I second your call for more images :-)


 * great job, GilbertoSilvaFan. currently i think the parts which also require help are those on his play/leadership/complementary team-mates etc., maybe some mention of him being a leader of a mostly young squad, more on his personal/off the pitch life...


 * Follow-up: I think the main thing missing from the article now is a 'Player profile' or 'Style of play' section. Praise for Henry's style of play should be extremely easy to source, since so many journalists have done this. Documenting criticism of Tel will be a tricky business though, since a) not many people do it, and b) if the section doesn't show criticism for Henry, it will seem NPOV.


 * there used to be a section in this article "dedicated" to Henry's failure to score in finals or something like that. however, the source was some blog. that said, if we are pursuing this line, another more reliable source should be findable.


 * The other thing which needs to be done is another copy edit on the entire Biography section. I'm not sure how well the paragraphs transition into each other. I'll set up a to-do box for this article so that other people (i.e. you, Chensiyuan) can add to it, and we can all pending tasks organised. Fo' real. -GilbertoSilvaFan 19:08, 24 March 2007 (UTC)


 * will do, thanks once again. Chensiyuan 06:33, 25 March 2007 (UTC)

I've made a bunch of changes today. I won't try to list them all here, since there have been quite a few. One thing I've spent quite a bit of time trying to do though is find a source which cites Aragones' comments about Henry. I figued that if I searched for him the ball, and then show that black little, I'd find a reliable source. Alas, the only results returned are small sites and blogs quoting this article. I'm pretty sure I remember that quote being in the papers at the time of the incident, but if we can't find a proper source, the quote will have to be removed and the paragraph reworded.


 * i tried searching under black s*** and got a couple. this and this, would that suffice?


 * for the time being i've got ahead to reference the remark, but i've trimmed down the full remark to merely Aragones referring to TH as "black shit". —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Chensiyuan (talk • contribs) 09:22, 26 March 2007 (UTC).


 * Good job! That seems fine -GilbertoSilvaFan 12:00, 26 March 2007 (UTC)

So yeah. Other than that, the only thing left to do in the todo box is adding info about Tel being senior figure to lots of young players. Once I do that tomorrow, I'll ask a bunch of people to look at the article to see what's missing from it, or how it can be improved. Maybe a PR or GA nomination. -GilbertoSilvaFan 01:12, 26 March 2007 (UTC)


 * another thing about his play is his willingness to run back and defend methinks.

I'll try to find a source for this. No doubt Andy Gray has written about it in some obscure sky sports article. -GilbertoSilvaFan 12:00, 26 March 2007 (UTC)


 * yup that would be a good idea. i shall do a few re-reads and tweaks in the process. thanks for your help as always, Chensiyuan 03:22, 26 March 2007 (UTC)

Good work with all those tweaks, if I had to sit down and fix all those mistakes I'd go mental. -GilbertoSilvaFan 12:00, 26 March 2007 (UTC)

editprotectedThere are a couple edits needed regarding the chronology of the Confederations Cup he participated in (took place after the 2002-03 season, not the 2003-04 season when Arsenal were unbeaten in the league) as well the number of goals he scored in the tournament (4, not 12). One minor edit (re: the 2000 Euro Championship) is that Zinedine Zidane was not captain of the squad during the tournament. Active Retro 12:06, 21 April 2007 (UTC)
 * Thank you for your sharp observations. Relevant corrections have been made. Chensiyuan 12:43, 24 April 2007 (UTC)

editprotected This page is semiprotected; any username more than a few days old can edit it. There is no need for administrator assistance. CMummert · talk 13:34, 22 April 2007 (UTC)

Perspective/POV
i feel somewhere in the lead it should be mentioned TH is regarded by many as one of the best players in the world, at least for his generation.

i'm fully aware of course the implications of including such statements (seen the NPOV lawyering explode countless times).

but my point is this. first, that statement will be supportable by many reliable sources. second, it provides a real perspective on TH. critics of POV often say let the article speak for itself, viz. either examining the accolades and championships the player has won.

but a player's greatness is not necessarily measured by the number of things he won. in TH's case, okay so we know he won the WC, the EURO, the EPL etc. but so? what does all this mean to the ordinary reader who serves as the benchmark? there are quite a few people who have done the same but would not be regarded as one of the best in the world. in other words, the TH article would patently appear as merely another soccer player article.

so naysayers might say, what's wrong with that. it's wrong not because i think he's good, but him being perceived widely as great is surely characteristic of him. we speak of the Peles, Maradonas and Zidanes. non-football fans would know of these people. TH is right up there too, not because i say so, but because the perception exists, and this is verifiable. i'm not asserting as a fact he is one of the best, i'm asserting it is a fact he is perceived as one. ergo, it will also mean on many levels there is some truth to that perception, inasmuch as that is irrelevant and completely independent of my suggestion that a statement that TH is regarded as one of the best can be considered to be incorporated. Chensiyuan 08:41, 27 March 2007 (UTC)

I totally agree. I'll get started with finding a few sources to back up a "one of the best players in the world" sentence in the lead. -GilbertoSilvaFan 09:11, 27 March 2007 (UTC)


 * Okay, how's that? I think maybe it needs a slight rewording. Anyway, good suggestion. The fact that Tel went from relative obscurity to being one of the best in the world is a massive part of his career. To not mention it would be more of a crime of uncomprehensiveness than NPOV. -GilbertoSilvaFan 09:58, 27 March 2007 (UTC)


 * good job! well i suppose it's between what we have now versus something like "regarded by many as one of the best in the world". we'd keep this now, and see people react to it. Chensiyuan 20:32, 27 March 2007 (UTC)

GA status
The article is well-written and well-organized. I'm passing it. Great job! PeaceNT 17:44, 15 April 2007 (UTC)
 * Belated thanks! Chensiyuan (talk) 14:08, 9 September 2008 (UTC)

Squadboxes
There are too many there, plain and simple. I'd argue the following deserve to be there (at an absolute maximum:)


 * Current club squad. A given.
 * Last World Cup squad/Euro squad (which ever falls most recent). Closest we get to 'current national side'. [That they were in]
 * World Cup winning sides. Meritworthy at least.
 * Being VERY generous, Euro-cup winning sides. Would rather this be done on separate page, but can see the argument.

A 2002 WC quarterfinal winning squad doesn't need to be amongst the boxes shown. Nor would a World Cup runners-up in 2006, if he plays in 2010 in South Africa. (It's noteworthy in the text of the article, but doesn't require a squadbox, surely?)


 * 2002 probably not a strong case to keep. WC 2006 however would be the most recent for national side. Chensiyuan 03:23, 19 April 2007 (UTC)

barcelona transfer talks, once again
The french football newspaper reports that Henry is on his way to Barca. Only thing missing is Arsenal's approval. See the article here: Barça - Henry : presque fait. Should it be added? Hjorten 16:18, 11 June 2007 (UTC)
 * A swedish newspaper did too. Henry överens med Barcelona CHANDLER 17:24, 11 June 2007 (UTC)
 * Yeah, I originally found it on a Danish football website bold.dk Henry enig med Barcelona It seems both articles refer to the french article; maybe we should wait until another source confirms. Hjorten 18:13, 11 June 2007 (UTC)
 * Frankly the news would never stop and unless the speculation is widely held then it would not be particularly useful. Chensiyuan 04:07, 12 June 2007 (UTC)

Now Henry's agent wants to sue the newspaper; seems this was purely speculation! Henry-agent vil sagsøge fodboldmagasin Hjorten 08:33, 12 June 2007 (UTC)


 * The Beeb are normally quite a reliable source. http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/hi/football/europe/6231950.stm BeL1EveR 18:12, 22 June 2007 (UTC)

Barcelona Player

 * A few minutes ago: (all in spanish) El Pais As, Marca Sport y Mundo deportivo
 * L´équipe

Britzingen 18:20, 22 June 2007 (UTC)
 * The Sun

BeL1EveR 18:24, 22 June 2007 (UTC)
 * BBC
 * Sky


 * I've reverted a change to say he's a Barcelona player. It would be fine to say he's in talks to sign with Barcelona, but the BBC website (for example) says the deal is not likely to be complete till next week, assuming it does go through.  As of now he's an Arsenal player. Mike Christie (talk) 18:31, 22 June 2007 (UTC)


 * Yes, not confimation yet, sorry. Britzingen 18:48, 22 June 2007 (UTC)


 * It's been confirmed, he's going to be number 14 at the Nou Camp next season. Read it in the Guardian. Someone ought to cite the shirt number so people stop saying it's 'TBA' and stuff. LiamUK 11:23, 23 June 2007 (UTC)
 * The deal has not gone through yet. Mattythewhite 11:32, 23 June 2007 (UTC)


 * Arsenal.com
 * FC Barcelona Britzingen 17:10, 23 June 2007 (UTC)

He has a medical on Monday. WATP  (talk) • (contribs) 17:14, 23 June 2007 (UTC)


 * BBC are now reporting he's passed his medical now we can all move on and the nominations for WP:LAME can begin. Foxhill 15:42, 25 June 2007 (UTC)

spanish club Arsenal?
"plays as a striker for the France national team and Spanish club Arsenal." —Preceding unsigned comment added by 88.83.244.226 (talk • contribs)


 * Haven't you heard? slυмgυм [ ←→ ] 13:17, 23 June 2007 (UTC)
 * He means Arsenal aren't a Spanish squad. Someone changed the team name, but not the location. - Slow Graffiti 07:43, 24 June 2007 (UTC)
 * I know. I was joking. slυмgυм [ ←→ ] 11:20, 24 June 2007 (UTC)

#14
"He was given the squad number 14 which was formerly worn at the club by Johann Cruyff and which Henry also wore at Arsenal."

Cruijff never actually wore 14 for Barca. It was back in the 1-11 days and Cruijff was #9. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.145.250.123 (talk • contribs)


 * I gather it stems from bad reporting.Cruyff favoured the number 14 shirt and wore it for Ajax and other clubs, but wore number 9 when starting a game for Barcelona and 14 when a substitute. Foxhill 13:04, 26 June 2007 (UTC)

New picture
Someone please upload a picture of him as a Barcelona player.
 * You know, its not that easy getting pictures willy-nilly... Mattythewhite 18:18, 29 June 2007 (UTC)
 * Yes and if you do please ensure it complies with copyright rules -- WP ones. Best if they are your own. Chensiyuan 00:59, 30 June 2007 (UTC)

What about photoshopped pictures all over the world? They ain't got bitten by no lisence. Besides, no problem taking a picture from fcbarcelona.dk, and just do a few effects in photoshop, and whoops, it's yours. Some.. how.
 * that doesn't always work. i don't agree with the stringent copyright requirements of WP, but that's the way it is. Chensiyuan 14:58, 30 June 2007 (UTC)

Split
Any mention of the split should be well-sourced. So far all the edits have either been unsourced, poorly sourced, or worse, misreprenting sources. Chensiyuan 00:53, 16 July 2007 (UTC) Wouldnt it be better to put a picture of him in an Arsenal or French shirt? I mean, he's played there for most of his career, and that is where is most famous. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Beepos (talk • contribs) 15:31, 14 October 2007 (UTC)

Goals/Apps
To anyone editing the infobox -- please note that the goals/appearances pertain to domestic league only. Not UEFA games, not cup games, and certainly not friendlies. Chensiyuan 07:54, 27 July 2007 (UTC)

FAC?
Is it really to be nominated? I would say it is. Buc 15:53, 29 July 2007 (UTC)


 * I've contributed a fair bit to the article and well it might be worth a shot but i suspect it'd be quite hugely contested. The depth in coverage and use of references are certainly FA standard IMO, but the prose (tightness, grammar etc) always proves to be the main grouse for objectors. Chensiyuan 16:18, 29 July 2007 (UTC)
 * Well looking at it again, there's always room for more depth -- book references perhaps. I never found it particularly compelling, but books always gives you a little more (or at least variety in sources, possibly reducing bias as well), and satisfies voters. Chensiyuan 00:43, 1 September 2007 (UTC)

Picture
I am unfamiliar with how to upload pictures to wikipedia (for copyright reasons, not the inability to actually upload them), but does anyone have a picture of him either not in uniform or in a Barcelona uniform that would be appropriate. It just seems him as an Arsenal player should be changed to something else. Isaiah 20:49, 4 September 2007 (UTC) (forgot to sign)
 * It doesn't matter what shirt he's wearing. All the picture's there for is to see what he looks like. Mattythewhite 20:57, 4 September 2007 (UTC)
 * As you pointed out if you want him in a Barca shirt that's fine provided it fulfils copyright requirements... Chensiyuan 23:16, 4 September 2007 (UTC)
 * Matty, I think my point is mainly that the picture doesn't really show what he looks like and he's now no longer an Arsenal player. If someone is new to the site and just glancing around sees that he's in an Arsenal kit, that could cause confusion. While that confusion is that person's own personal problem, it just seems that you could kill two birds with one stone. But again, I don't understand the copyright issues on Wiki and am merely suggesting an alternative to the current picture. I am personally neither bothered nor confused by the picture. Isaiah 00:00, 5 September 2007 (UTC)
 * Easiest if you own a pic of him in a Barca shirt and you agree to release it for WP use. Or if you don't own it, then you'd have to get permission to use it. Chensiyuan 00:37, 5 September 2007 (UTC)

Copyedit
I have a few concerns/queries, which are marked in the article text with :
 * In the third paragraph of the "Early Career" section, there is a mention of the U-20 French national team, but the link is to the U-21
 * The reference for this statement is a broken link - it just redirects to the fifa.com index.
 * I replaced lots of hyphens with en dashes, in keeping with WP:DASH - saves trouble later at FAC! Cricketgirl 15:03, 22 September 2007 (UTC)

Broken links
The following references have broken links or are no longer current: 4, 5, 6, 10, 11, 20, 22, 34, 35, 36 (which also mis-spells "adidas"), 47, 49, 60 is just a picture - this might need to be put in context. This is definitely something that FAC will rip to shreds, so it's worth fixing. Cricketgirl 15:03, 22 September 2007 (UTC)
 * ✅ fixed all refs (note: ref no.s above won't be accurate as i've shifted/subsumed/deleted refs where necessary) -- i've also removed refs from the lead as they are a little cumbersome; in any case refs are provided in the body. one thing's for sure: fifa and yahoo links are a bad idea. thanks Cricketgirl for kindly combing through the mess. Chensiyuan 11:55, 23 September 2007 (UTC)

featuring in commercials
Why isn't it mentioned that he also featured in Pepsi commercial along with backham, roberto carlos and others? --Rustavizauri (talk) 00:44, 28 January 2008 (UTC)
 * If you could point us to a source, would be happy to include it. Chensiyuan (talk) 00:58, 28 January 2008 (UTC)
 * Here is one For April 2005 and Youtube Video 1 & #2. --Rustavizauri (talk) 05:18, 28 January 2008 (UTC)
 * In now. Chensiyuan (talk) 06:16, 28 January 2008 (UTC)
 * Done. Thanks! --Rustavizauri (talk) 06:31, 28 January 2008 (UTC)

I added his appearance in the Reebok Framed series with Paz Vega. The full 1/2 hour episode is really good, as is the 2 minute commercial. There's another Reebok short on their website where they highlight his childhood, his playing style and someone he looks up to (Allen Iverson). Didn't think all of that deserved mention on his WP page though. Shevchenko and Casillas are featured too.Zerotta (talk) 20:07, 4 March 2008 (UTC)
 * Thanks. I have fixed the formatting of the ref for you. Chensiyuan (talk) 01:32, 5 March 2008 (UTC)
 * I saw that, thanks. I've actually never really made a direct ref on wp until then.  I tried copying the format of another one but didn't get it quite right and figured at least the source was there.Zerotta (talk) 01:55, 5 March 2008 (UTC)
 * I've searched and searched after watching it the first time, but I can't find the full 30 minute episode anywhere. I originally found it by clicking on a Reebok ad on Yahoo! for the Baron Davis/Emmanuelle Chriqui Framed episode.  I can find the two minute commercial though.  vexing...  Zerotta (talk) 14:11, 5 March 2008 (UTC)

Contradiction
The following sentence doesn't settle with the info provided in the infobox: "He was spotted by AS Monaco in 1990 and signed instantly, making his professional debut in 1994." If he signed instantly what are all those other teams between 1990-1994 (with the exception of clairefontaine, I suppose he could've been contracted to Monaco and still at clairefontaine)? Yonatan talk 03:00, 29 January 2008 (UTC)
 * Yonatan, surprisingly I see you here, too. Sadly, I don't have a good answer, but I think that the explanation is that he wasn't allowed yet to play for Monaco because he needed to attend that acedemy, and therefore played for their team. YemeniteCamel (talk) 09:18, 1 February 2008 (UTC)

Release Clause
This article refers to a release clause. As an American, I'm not familiar with the concept. Perhaps wikipedia could have a page explaining football release clauses? 207.10.60.100 (talk) 14:56, 8 February 2008 (UTC)

I couldn't find an article about it on wiki but can offer a basic explaination from my own understanding.

The term Minimum Release Clause, refers to a contract clause common in European and South American footballers contracts (but not in the UK, where it is illegal). It relates to a Minimum Release Fee, an amount of money specified in the contract, to which the employer club is legally obliged to accept a transfer offer if that offer meets the Minimum Release Fee, but may reject any offer that does not meet the Minimum Release Fee. It is prominent in less wealthy clubs in South America who wish to secure young potential players and protect them from European clubs that wish to poach them for an undervalued amount. Eg. A club may offer €5M for a player who has a Minimum Release Fee of €10M, and the club which he is contracted to rejects the transfer. Then the buying club offers €10M which meets the Minimum Release Fee and the selling club has no choice but to accept the transfer, allowing the buying club to enter into contract discussion with the player, who can accept the transfer or reject the contract and stay at his current club. It has a similar use in Europe, but Minimum Release Fees could range into hundreds of millions of Euros to protect high-quality players from being poached by richer clubs for an undervalued amount. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Moomoo25 (talk • contribs) 06:30, 23 April 2008 (UTC)

Total goals for Arsenal
Something is wrong with the total tally of goals for Arsenal. http://www.arsenal.com/article.asp?thisNav=the+club&article=341526&lid=History&Title=Club+Records Lists him as having 214 total goals and only 164 League goals. ````imothyt —Preceding unsigned comment added by Imothyt (talk • contribs) 18:59, 11 April 2008 (UTC)
 * Note the rubric on the top of that page -- correct as of 18 May 2006. That was one full season before he left for Barca, no? In any event, we have two decent sources for 174. But thanks for pointing this out, it was worth investigating. Chensiyuan (talk) 23:55, 11 April 2008 (UTC)

A few things
Hey guys, really good article (but you know that, it got FA and that's how I found it) but two things: firstly, shouldn't the lead mention the criticism he's faced at Barca for his poor from, and secondly in the "Transfer to Barcelona" bit, it says the transfer was "and unexpected turn of events", which it really wasn't; rumours of that transfer had floated for at least two yeas, Barca had made bids and two months beforehand Henry stated numerous inviting comments. Idon't have sources but I'm 100% that they are out there and this stuff should be in there. Michael Clarke, Esq. (talk) 00:55, 23 April 2008 (UTC)
 * First, thank you for your comments. Yes this article is in need of an update, but I was thinking I'd get round to giving it a complete update at the end of the season. However, if anyone feels they can chip in at this point of time, they're more than welcome to. As for the unexpectedness: well, I'm not persuaded that the existence of transfer rumours vindicates expectedness. Especially when it concerns teams like Barca, Real, or the Milans, who're constantly linked to right about all the top players on the planet. I think it was stated as unexpected because of what Henry and Wenger had said before re: Henry leaving. Chensiyuan (talk) 01:00, 23 April 2008 (UTC)
 * I suppose, but I would have thought that if there are multiple sources out there with the same rumour, then we can show that he'd been persistently linked. The fact is the links tuned out to be right so it feels like it should be mentioned. That, and the fact he said he wouldn't leave should both be in there. --Michael Clarke, Esq. (talk) 01:08, 24 April 2008 (UTC)

Pace?
What's pace (lead sentence)? Running speed? Speed of the balls he kicks? Goals per game (least likely)? I suggest an explanation.

By the way, I think "goal-scoring record" should be hyphenated as I just did. &mdash;JerryFriedman (Talk) 16:53, 23 April 2008 (UTC)
 * Pace as generally understood. The way it's phrased, the first. Chensiyuan (talk) 23:33, 23 April 2008 (UTC)
 * Thanks. I think "running pace" or "running speed" would be a lot more generally understood, at least in America. &mdash;JerryFriedman  (Talk) 21:55, 24 April 2008 (UTC)
 * Perhaps, but pace is a standard term for the running speed in soccer. It implies a certain component of ball control too, I'd say - it's more than just running, but running with control of the ball. I may be wrong there, though. Adacore (talk) 07:19, 25 April 2008 (UTC)

Vandalism
I don't know who this guy is, but I clicked on this article on the main page and all it said was "he likes boys", so I fixed it. --Smart Mark Greene (talk) 17:01, 23 April 2008 (UTC)
 * Thanks. Happens when an FA hits the main page. Chensiyuan (talk) 23:33, 23 April 2008 (UTC)

There is LOADS of vandalism on this page. Could somebody please warn whoever added the Screaming Eagles, girls school u11s, and "Worthless Cup" comments, as they are not needed and are defamtory. Thanks 86.135.209.39 (talk) 20:47, 28 May 2008 (UTC)

Goal Tally for Barcelona
Can anyone confirm Henry's goals in domestic cup competitions for Barcelona? Someone edited it to four goals in two matches a few weeks ago, and I'm not sure if that tally is right. Xioyux (talk) 20:53, 17 May 2008 (UTC)
 * Do you have some sources in mind? Chensiyuan (talk) 01:06, 11 July 2008 (UTC)

Performance Table
Adding Henry's France statistics to his career statistics table makes it incongruous with other player profiles within Wikipedia, and in that way confusing. Whereas I was expecting the total goals for the 2007-08 campaign to be 19 (the total of his league, cup, and European results), his total with France's men's national team has been included. It also duplicates information which is in the next section, International.
 * Yes, and nobody really updates the old table religiously, so let's not add to the clutter. Chensiyuan (talk) 01:19, 9 July 2008 (UTC)

Reliable Sources: Jockbio.com
Is this really a quality source? It appears to be an internet only bio written by an American journalism student. I don't think it should be relied on so heavily - especially as a featured article. Sillyfolkboy (talk) 19:32, 10 July 2008 (UTC)
 * The alluded appearance is untrue. Chensiyuan (talk) 01:05, 11 July 2008 (UTC)

ref #3 doesn't work
It links to an empty page at. I think it should be fixed. —Preceding unsigned comment added by הגמל התימני (talk • contribs) 11:53, 28 July 2008 (UTC)
 * might need to resort to wayback. Chensiyuan (talk) 12:12, 28 July 2008 (UTC)
 * I have translated this article into Hebrew in the past. Now, there are so many un-sourced sentences in my articles, that this problem stands between normal-article-status and FA status in my wikipedia. What do we do? HaGamal 14:37, 28 July 2008 (UTC)
 * As above. Chensiyuan (talk) 15:00, 28 July 2008 (UTC)
 * So here it is from the web archive -- takes a while to load. It's good up to June 2007. Good spot of the problem, I should say. Chensiyuan (talk) 15:21, 28 July 2008 (UTC)

Awards plus private life
Why have these two Awards and Private Life sectioned have merged, they used to be separate. Is this vandalism or ...? Rustavizauri (talk) 13:49, 7 August 2008 (UTC)
 * Ok'd. Nice. Chensiyuan (talk) 15:50, 7 August 2008 (UTC)

his religion
I read a lot of rumors that he converted to Islam. Can anybody find a good reference about henry faith now? --Aaronshavit (talk) 23:09, 20 August 2008 (UTC)
 * Source of rumours? Chensiyuan (talk) 00:34, 21 August 2008 (UTC)

Biased?
This article is so unbiased it's untrue. No mention of his choking in big games? I don't understand the bit about his time in Juve. Someone says he was played in an unfamiliar position, yet at the time he was a winger, so Ancelotti was correct to play him as a winger at Juventus. And established himself as a world class footballer at Arsenal? Well this is simply a matter of opinion and should be classed as POV.
 * It's an FA; read up the policies on WP:NPOV and WP:CITE. Chensiyuan (talk) 14:07, 9 September 2008 (UTC)
 * Just because a source on the internet describes Henry as a world class player does not mean it is true. How would one define a world class footballer anyway?
 * Verifiability -- came across that yet? Step one is always avoid original research... Chensiyuan (talk) 09:10, 12 September 2008 (UTC)
 * Source doesn't even refer to him as a world class player. And someone should change the bit about Juventus where it says he was played in an awkward position. At the time he was a winger, so him playing as a winger for Juve does not mean he was playing in an awkward position. Quite the opposite in fact. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 89.241.240.100 (talk) 01:12, 15 September 2008 (UTC)
 * The source does support this statement. The fact that he was ranked 2nd in world player of the year inherently suggests that he is world class &mdash; unless you only consider first place as world class which would make it a very lonely class indeed! I agree with the strange comments about him being out of position on the wing though, as there is no mention up to that point that he had played in any position other than the wing. Can we clarify this? Either he changed to striker at Monaco or it was just a disappointing season at Juventus. Sillyfolkboy (talk) 00:33, 17 November 2008 (UTC)


 * He always was a striker originally (at Monaco and before that too), it was only when he went to Juventus that he was put out on the wing. 163.1.146.24 (talk) 17:41, 20 November 2008 (UTC)

Légion d'Honneur
Would anyone happen to know what rank of this order was bestowed upon Henry? For instance, Fabien Barthez was named Chevalier (Knight) of the Légion d'Honneur. Thanks. sixty nine  • spill it •  17:12, 16 November 2008 (UTC)

Henry's spiritual life
Henry:Islam is the closest to my Heart.

Henry is thinking seriously about converting to islam. an interview with Al-Jazeera Soprts Channel

Could someone please write it in the TYPICAL Wikipedia's way? because every time I write it it's going to be deleted for sure. Thanks Ahmad2099 (talk) 14:39, 13 December 2008 (UTC)

Whether to have a space between the positions
Comments welcome. I say "no", because of mos; see also the WP entry on /, where it states: "The most common use is to replace the hyphen or en dash to make clear a strong joint between words or phrases, such as "the Hemingway/Faulkner generation". Yet very often it is used to represent the concept "or", especially in instruction books. The virgule is also used to indicate a line break when quoting multiple lines from a poem, play, or headline. In this case (and only in this case), a space is placed before and after the virgule. For example: "Love alters not with his brief hours and weeks, / But bears it out even to the edge of doom." Chensiyuan (talk) 01:16, 13 February 2009 (UTC)


 * The anon has now introduced another senseless edit into his repertoire -- removing piped FC from the club wikilinks when it's clear it shouldn't be done. This persistent and systematic vandalism is amazing. Chensiyuan (talk) 05:51, 27 February 2009 (UTC)
 * Call me a liver livered landlubber but why not avoid this situation by listing the positions with a line break in between? I don't think it changes the meaning at all. Sillyfolkboy (talk) 11:08, 27 February 2009 (UTC)
 * Sure, but I don't see why one should pander to a vandal (banned user Bruninho and his whole array of IP socks). Moreover, what creative solution should be invented for the persistent removal of the piped links? Chensiyuan (talk) 16:55, 27 February 2009 (UTC)
 * An IP range block perhaps? Sillyfolkboy (talk) 22:32, 1 March 2009 (UTC)

All-time English Premiership goal-scorers
From the article: "Henry is currently third in the list of all-time English Premiership goal-scorers, behind Alan Shearer and Andy Cole.". How about mentioning the #goals for each, and perhaps the #years it took to achieve this? Shearer and Cole played for ~16 years, while Henry did this in 9 years (If not mistaken). Thanks Kvsh5 (talk) 12:03, 3 May 2009 (UTC)

2005 FA Cup final
People keep editing this to be wrong. With the FA Cup, only players involved in the final (the starting XI and named substitutes) get receive medals regardless of whether or not they have been involved in the previous rounds. This is unlike the Champions League where every member of the official CL squad for the season gets one. Henry therefore DID NOT get a medal in 2005, as Robert Pires DID NOT get a medal in 2002 when he missed the final due to his serious knee injury.


 * Can you find a source to back this up? The rules at the moment states that 25 medals are given to the winning team for players and staff. They say nothing about having to have been involved in the final to get one. srushe (talk) 08:52, 19 May 2009 (UTC)

Teams can even request extra medals for players they deem to have had a significant impact but missed the final, just like players who have not played enough league games to automatically warrant a league medal can still get one on their teams request. So jut because Henry missed the game doesn't mean he did not get a medal, so an actual source would be a good idea. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 93.34.131.58 (talk) 23:07, 20 November 2009 (UTC)

Archived
Just a heads up to say that I archived all the old talk. Was surprised to see a GA review still hanging around! Hope no one minds. Sillyfolkboy (talk) (edits) WIKIPROJECT ATHLETICS NEEDS YOU!  21:31, 19 May 2009 (UTC)

Career statistics
I was looking at Barcelona FC website. Their statistic for Henry is different than the one here. I've notice that the current statistic is from soccernet.espn.go.com. I went to UEFA official website and La Liga official website. They have the same statistic as Barcelona FC official website. Here are the link if anyone want to take a look
 * http://www.fcbarcelona.com/web/english/futbol/temporada_08-09/estadistiques/jugadors/Henry/fitxa.html
 * http://www.uefa.com/competitions/ucl/players/player=24057/index.html
 * http://www.lfp.es/Default.aspx?tabid=113&Controltype=plan&IDEquipo=5

Elsonlam1 (talk) 00:04, 5 June 2009 (UTC)
 * Uh oh. I just notice that UEFA website gives Henry 3 assists for the 2008-09 Champions League but Barca website only give him 2. Beside that, everything else looks the same. Anyone want to weight in? Elsonlam1 (talk) 00:24, 5 June 2009 (UTC)
 * Probably should decide on one source for easier referencing purposes. Chensiyuan (talk) 01:32, 5 June 2009 (UTC)
 * What about the friendly games with France? The goals we have listed here are just for the competitive games and not for the friendlies. Other players, like Nicolas Anelka, have the friendly goals included.--Janisterzaj (talk) 16:31, 7 June 2009 (UTC)

Assists Statistics
Some of those stats are wrong. For instance I know for a fact from watching videos that Henry had more than 1 assist in the Champions League in 02/03. If I wanted to change it would I need to provide a corroborative source, or is my own testimony enough? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 79.69.4.83 (talk) 23:16, 29 June 2009 (UTC)
 * The former. Chensiyuan (talk) 02:15, 30 June 2009 (UTC)
 * Right, is a youtube video a good enough source? Renoog (talk) 02:53, 30 June 2009 (UTC)
 * The keys to citing sources in Wikipedia are found in WP:RS and WP:verifiability. Once you've read these, you can make the call as to whether youtube is suitable in this instance. Chensiyuan (talk) 06:44, 30 June 2009 (UTC)

Man of the Match Award
Henry was not MOTM against Italy in the Euro 2000 final. Francesco Totti was. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 78.145.41.60 (talk) 11:12, 29 July 2009 (UTC)
 * Simply following the ref. You've got a ref? Chensiyuan (talk) 13:34, 29 July 2009 (UTC)

Career stat total
Why is it that whenever I try to affix a career stat total to the stat box it gets erased? Club appearances, goals, and assists totals are included but a cumulative total is not. What is the deal? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 151.201.151.50 (talk) 22:40, 30 July 2009 (UTC)
 * Because nobody ever updates the totals regularly, causing a lot of counterproductivity. Chensiyuan (talk) 02:30, 31 July 2009 (UTC)

Castrol Rankings
Should we include the Castrol Rankings in this article and on other football players articles who are ranked high up?

Simba1409 (talk) 08:50, 18 November 2009 (UTC)

Henry's handball against Rep. Ireland
On 18th Nov 2009 in extra time in the the World Cup qualifier against Rep. Ireland Henry controversially double-handled the ball in the penalty area to control it before passing the ball to William Gallas who tapped the ball in sending France to the World Cup in South Africa. Chrismccarthy (talk) 23:15, 18 November 2009 (UTC)

I have added a line about this at the end of international career and cited appropriate sources. let's keep this factual even if understandably it is an emotive topic.
 * There are a numerous sources. It's easy to keep this factual. I'd imagine more fallout and references will be available in the coming days. Fribbler (talk) 23:25, 18 November 2009 (UTC)

This is an encyclopedia, not a blog or chatroom, but the signal to noise ratio has been out of kilter for a while, so I've taken the unusual step of semi-protecting for a short period. Please see WP:TALK for reasons why, but meanwhile there are thousands of footy chatrooms out there; use them, not us. That's if you really think it matters. Rodhull andemu  23:57, 18 November 2009 (UTC)
 * Protection

00:10, 19 November 2009 (UTC)I agree entirely with semi-protecting for a while. I'd likely add at least a date to the incident, though. Nialler (talk) 00:10, 19 November 2009 (UTC)

/* The handball... */ It is factually inaccurate to describe Henry's handball in the France versus Ireland playoff as "controversy".Controversy implies debate yet there is not debate about this issue as Henry has admitted that he has cheated. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.42.161.202 (talk) 10:23, 20 November 2009 (UTC)

The handball should be moved up to the intro section in order of significance. Surely it is at least as significant as his endorsement of Gilette that he is now "perhaps the most vilified footballer on the planet" (the Guardian: http://www.guardian.co.uk/football/2009/nov/19/thierry-henry-france-football-worldcup)? There can be no reasonable ambiguity about this. Even the french newspapers report his actions as cheating and sporting misconduct. This is now a central aspect of his biography and the page should reflect this. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 212.47.72.164 (talk) 10:30, 20 November 2009 (UTC)

Nobody never talk about the fault on Anelka, after he had passed all defence including goalkeeper ... any ref on this ? 82.66.246.185 (talk) 16:46, 20 November 2009 (UTC)


 * No, this is English Wikipedia so we only care about referee calls that the English and the Irish don't like. It is not a problem that referees give advantages to the English and the Irish, but if it's the other way around, we should create articles about it and put notes about it in about every article there is. Is it NPOV? No, it is extreme chauvinism, but that's the way English Wikipedia works, unfortunately.Jeppiz (talk) 17:17, 20 November 2009 (UTC)


 * Jeppiz, Your trolling is unhelpful here. To 82.66.246.185, this article is about Henry - minute details about one game should not be put in here. -- Neil N    talk  ♦  contribs  17:24, 20 November 2009 (UTC)


 * You're right Neil, but it's hard not to get the impression that that's the way it works. Not by any policy but by the behaviour of so-called "fans". Every time a team from the British Isles exits a major competition we see the same thing here on Wikipedia, but never if they should win by a contested call. Jeppiz (talk) 17:38, 20 November 2009 (UTC)


 * I understand it's frustrating responding to drive-by editors but the problem is not limited to the British and football. Things go pretty much the same way in American football or international hockey articles. -- Neil N    talk  ♦  contribs  17:52, 20 November 2009 (UTC)


 * Yes, I'm sure you're right. The biggest advantage of Wikipedia is that people can edit topics for which they have a passion, and that is also its biggest disadvantage.Jeppiz (talk) 17:55, 20 November 2009 (UTC)

Is Michel Platini himself monitering this talk page? Comments are being deleted for no other reason than that the petty clique of henry-philes that pander to him on this page have enough wiki-muscle, by sheer virtue of their years of servility, to have entries deleted. Well guess what, the comments are going to keep on coming.

The handball...
Nialler (talk) 23:59, 18 November 2009 (UTC)Two of the links are already dead.

I'd also advise close monitoring of this biography. I'd suspect that it will be subject to quite a bit of comment, and possibly some vandalism in the near future. FWIW, the only link regarding the handball that is still working is the Guardian link.Nialler (talk) 23:59, 18 November 2009 (UTC)
 * All three links are working for me as of 00:03 UTC. Fribbler (talk) 00:03, 19 November 2009 (UTC)

Nialler (talk) 00:05, 19 November 2009 (UTC) My apologies; all links are working. I'd remain vigilant of vandalism, though, particularly in article rated so highly. Nialler (talk) 00:05, 19 November 2009 (UTC)
 * Absolutely. It is semi-protected at the moment, at least. As, unusually, is the talk page. Fribbler (talk) 00:11, 19 November 2009 (UTC)

Nialler (talk) 18:51, 19 November 2009 (UTC) To be fair, the contraversy has reached a very serious pitch in the international press.

It doesn't serve Wiki well to allow such a major inciden in his career to be minimised to a minor mention. I'll be upfront and declare an interest: I'm an Irishman living in France. All of the major media outlets to which I have access have covered it in a manner which questions what will be the legacy of his career, and whether this incident will tarnish his previous good name.

The FAI have requested a replay and the calls for a replay have gone to Government level in Ireland, even resulting in a reply at French Government level: http://www.rte.ie/news/2009/1119/ireland.html


 * We are less than 24 hours from the incident, we cannot say whether it is a major incident in his life or not. This is an encyclopedia, not a news agency.Jeppiz (talk) 19:41, 19 November 2009 (UTC)

The Irish minister of justice Dermot Ahern made a personal appeal to Sarkozy to ask for a rematch - an unprecedented action as Sarkozy himelf acknowledged as his own defence for keeping out of it. This is a massive incident. And much as I abhor any member of Fianna Fail, the ruling Irish party, even they trounce Henry, Domenech, and Michel Platini for credibility. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 79.97.217.134 (talk) 02:45, 21 November 2009 (UTC)


 * So? What we CAN do is judge to the best of our abilites whether it will be. —Preceding unsigned comment added by GustenNyberg (talk • contribs) 21:24, 19 November 2009 (UTC)


 * Actually, we CAN'T do that - see WP:CRYSTAL. Wikipedia documents what was and what is, not what will be. -- Neil N   talk  ♦  contribs  21:31, 19 November 2009 (UTC)
 * It already IS an international incident, with the Irish government weighing in. It needs more than one line!--Pawnkingthree (talk) 03:45, 20 November 2009 (UTC)
 * The criterion goes beyond "is" -- this governmental response is part of a development in a wider context; I don't see how this article needs to go beyond what it has said so far. What is wrong with waiting? Chensiyuan (talk) 03:55, 20 November 2009 (UTC)
 * I was referring to the assertion that this will be a major incident in his life. It probably will be, but Wikipedia should be behind the curve in documenting this rather than ahead of it. -- Neil N   talk  ♦  contribs  05:50, 20 November 2009 (UTC)
 * But why is this partiality for Henry's article alone. There are other articles like Tom Henning Øvrebø even mentioning the usage of F word used by players for bad refereeing decision. P&#124;^&#124;C (talk) 07:37, 20 November 2009 (UTC)
 * See WP:OTHERSTUFFEXISTS. Any text referring to recent notoriety should be carefully examined and removed if warranted. -- Neil N    talk  ♦  contribs  16:26, 20 November 2009 (UTC)

The incident is being widely referred to as the 'Hand of Gaul' - what is the criteria for putting that in the article? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 81.138.8.42 (talk) 09:23, 20 November 2009 (UTC)


 * Multiple reliable sources for starters. -- Neil N   talk  ♦  contribs  16:26, 20 November 2009 (UTC)

to do...
delink second wikification of Italian national football team in the international career section. Chensiyuan (talk) 12:50, 19 November 2009 (UTC)

--Djln (talk) 13:25, 19 November 2009 (UTC)

I agree. Although I can clearly see this is an emmotive issue, Henry has cheated, not only himself and Ireland but Football in general. Case in point, see Diego Maradonna. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 147.209.216.245 (talk) 22:54, 19 November 2009 (UTC)

Link
Could be linked to Republic of Ireland vs France (2010 FIFA World Cup Play-Off) when unblocked Djln--Djln (talk) 13:25, 19 November 2009 (UTC)

edit request
editprotected

Please can the article Republic of Ireland vs France (2010 FIFA World Cup Play-Off) be pipe linked into the International career section, like such: Henry was involved in a controversy in the second leg. The word 'controversy' could probably be changed to 'controversial handball incident' for accuracy. MickMacNee (talk) 20:47, 19 November 2009 (UTC)


 * I'd rather not use the word "controversy" as a link like that. Nor do I think that it's essential that this be added during the cool-off period. Chris Cunningham (not at work) - talk 21:05, 19 November 2009 (UTC)
 * And ye shall know a thousand pissed off Irishmen and Women descended on this page… But why is full protection necessary? EDIT-Now I see, wasn't IPs.--Sooo Kawaii!!! ^__^ (talk) 22:31, 19 November 2009 (UTC)


 * What is it if not a controversy? And what is this cool off period you speak of? There is no reason not to add it now, it exists, it should be linked. MickMacNee (talk) 00:34, 20 November 2009 (UTC)
 * Best not do this while the page is up for deletion. I've removed the request for now.  —  Jake   Wartenberg  01:04, 20 November 2009 (UTC)
 * Not sure I understand this. Why would we not want to add it just because it is up for deletion? Currently, given the huge interest, the amount of information in this article, and its protected status, makes Wikipedia look like a bit of a joke tbh. MickMacNee (talk) 03:04, 20 November 2009 (UTC)
 * Don't see why it's a joke (though WP is a joke in many other respects). It goes back to the fundamental rationale of the BLP policies. Moreover, WP is not meant to be at the forefront of updating developing stories. Chensiyuan (talk) 03:34, 20 November 2009 (UTC)
 * Once again, how is keeping a link to an article out of this article, just because it is up for deletion, respecting BLP? How is not describing something that is being called in hundreds of sources a 'controversy', a controversy, respecting BLP? If the issue is BLP, then reword it, all I want is the link to the article added. When they get there, they will be more than able to see for themselves that it is a controversy. As for not the place for developing stories, I am quite sure the article on Fort Hood had a link to Fort Hood shooting added to it within microseconds of it being created, so why the foot dragging here? Makes no sense at all to me. P.S. To the admin whoever protected it, you're now famous! MickMacNee (talk) 05:58, 20 November 2009 (UTC)

Absolutely pointless ot mentioning it, it's now historical fact and unless I'm mistaken this is an encyclopaedia of sorts? One of two things is happening here: An admin is getting all excited over their powers or their French - possibly both. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 78.149.58.171 (talk) 18:33, 20 November 2009 (UTC)
 * Perhaps admins are just not as much in a rush, because they have experience with similar cases. —Th e DJ (talk • contribs) 15:53, 21 November 2009 (UTC)


 * It is mentioned in the International career section. -- Neil N   talk  ♦  contribs  19:33, 20 November 2009 (UTC)
 * That wasn't the request. MickMacNee (talk) 20:23, 20 November 2009 (UTC)

I got no actual answer to the question above as to why the above requested edit cannot be done simply because the article is up for deletion. The article exits, why can it not be linked to? We don't hide articles just because they are up for deletion. Change the word controversy if you must (it is used in all the sources though), but that isn't a reason not to treat wikipedia as a wiki, and actualy link between articles. MickMacNee (talk) 22:01, 20 November 2009 (UTC)


 * Agreed; I came to this page looking for a link to France vs Republic of Ireland (2010 FIFA World Cup Play-Off), but instead had to dig through layer upon layer of 2010 qualifying rounds. There is obviously consensus (above) that this should be linked. -M.Nelson (talk) 18:22, 21 November 2009 (UTC)
 * I, too, looked for France vs Republic of Ireland (2010 FIFA World Cup Play-Off). See below.— Chris! c / t 21:56, 21 November 2009 (UTC)

How does this work for people? --Deskana (talk) 23:42, 21 November 2009 (UTC)
 * Excellent. Many thanks. MickMacNee (talk) 01:23, 22 November 2009 (UTC)

Thierry Henry official twitter is fake
The self proclaimed official Thierry Henry twitter page is in fact fake & has since been suspended by Twitter because of this. Please remove the external link. 82.4.184.39 (talk) 23:30, 20 November 2009 (UTC)
 * ✅, thanks for telling us about this. —  Jake   Wartenberg  23:33, 20 November 2009 (UTC)

Biggest cheater in the history of sport?
Time magazine has listed the top ten sporting cheats and Thierry Henry is at the top of the list.  --Kevinharte (talk) 03:12, 22 November 2009 (UTC)


 * There's no way we're going to add that to the article based on one very subjective list so what are you proposing we do? -- Neil N   talk  ♦  contribs  03:51, 22 November 2009 (UTC)


 * When will this farce end? Chensiyuan (talk) 04:33, 22 November 2009 (UTC)


 * That is not what the Times wrote, they listed the top sporting cheats AND Thierry Henry. The top of the lis if Maradona, Henry is not even on the top 10 list. Even if he were, it's completely irrelevant and it's much too recent to evaluate it. If a similar list is made in a year and Henry is in it, it could perhaps be mentioned that one journalist though so.Jeppiz (talk) 06:06, 22 November 2009 (UTC)


 * Not sure what you're looking at, but Henry is #1 under "No Luck for the Irish"; Maradona is #11. But as I said above, the list is unusable. -- Neil N   talk  ♦  contribs  07:00, 22 November 2009 (UTC)
 * If you look at other Top 10 lists, its not really obvious that they're ranked at all. Some have extra rank numbers added to them some times reverse order, sometimes not. It seems every list made because of a current event, the current events are put as the first page example,or again. Why Jeppiz would think the list is reverse? Because no on in their right mind would have Henry over Maradona, or Rivaldo over Maradona... It's just silly, more to the fact that Maradona and Rivaldo did their things very delibirate. The ball bounced up on Henry's hand. chandler 09:34, 22 November 2009 (UTC)
 * I hear what you're saying but it's equally as silly to think American writers would rank a cricket scandal above the Black Sox scandal. Regardless, I think we all agree that the list cannot be used in any way in this article. -- Neil N   talk  ♦  contribs  14:56, 22 November 2009 (UTC)
 * The text also makes it clear that The Times meant that Maradona was worse than Henry, but as you say, our interpretations aren't very important (not important at all) and we all agree that the list cannot be used.Jeppiz (talk) 16:12, 22 November 2009 (UTC)

I dunno,i'm neutral about the whole thing,but this article is completly ignoring all the press coverage and contravercy.Surely that deserves some mention.--Kevinharte (talk) 17:04, 22 November 2009 (UTC)


 * It's not completely ignoring - the last part of the International career section directly refers to what happened. If you wish to expand, then I suggest you list the exact changes here complete with wording so we can discuss. -- Neil N   talk  ♦  contribs  17:09, 22 November 2009 (UTC)


 * The controversy deserves mention in his intro. Especially considering there's mention of his endorsement deals in there now. At this point in time, it looks VERY significant and notable. When Prime Ministers are commenting, there's enough fire for the smoke. When protection is removed, I will be putting in something regarding the handball incident.99.245.37.46 (talk) 20:37, 22 November 2009 (UTC)
 * Seriously no, it does not deserve a mention in the lead. chandler 20:42, 22 November 2009 (UTC)
 * Seriously, yes, it does. ... Wait, does saying "seriously" make it seem like you really know and others should listen to you? ;) 99.245.37.46 (talk) 01:03, 23 November 2009 (UTC)
 * Please restrict the arguments to the parameters of WP:LEAD rather than just stake an unsubstantiated claim. Chensiyuan (talk) 23:02, 23 November 2009 (UTC)