Talk:ThinkPad/Archive 3

Lenovo Ultrabay
I think this whole section goes into too much detail and is of limited relevance in a general-purpose encyclopedia. ThinkWiki is a better place for such information and it already has an exhaustive article about Ultrabays. My idea is as follows: let's (1) get rid of the compatibility table, (2) rewrite the text into a single, general paragraph and (3) rename the section to 'Accessories' (or something similar) so that eventually other gadgets could be mentioned there as well -- but in brief. Piotras 12:02, 19 April 2007 (UTC)

First Thinkpad
How could the first thinkpad be a 486 model with a color screen when I own a 386 model with a monochrome screen? X570 04:02, 10 February 2007 (UTC)

I don't even think it was 486 nor 386. But IBM introduced lower-end ThinkPads after the 1st one (numbers go down) 700C was the 1st. (Wikimachine 04:59, 10 February 2007 (UTC))

First ThinkPad was a PEN COMPUTER
As of 2007-04-20, the article says "The design of the commercial versions differed significantly from the prototype's keyboard-less tablet design." Indeed the original and first use of the name "ThinkPad" was on a pen computer from IBM that ran the PenPoint operating system from GO Corporation. I believe this was the 700T. IBM sold this in limited quantities, primarily for some corporate trials, so it was more than a prototype but less than a widely available model. (I was there: I worked at GO, saw the launch machines, and borrowed some of the ThinkPad logos because it was so obviously an amazingly cool product name.) -- Skierpage 07:02, 21 April 2007 (UTC)
 * Tell me more about it. I'm a ThinkPad fan & I have the book "ThinkPad: A Different Shade of Blue". (Wikimachine 16:04, 21 April 2007 (UTC))

Serious rework potentially needed?
This article seems to be awfully large and unwieldy, and seems to focus far too much on specific model details. Is a complete guide to each ThinkPad series really necessary, or would a link to something offsite (like thinkpads.com or ThinkWiki) be more wise? Or, perhaps something along the lines of how the Chevrolet Camaro article is split, with a quick rundown in the main body and an article detailing the finer points for each laptop and/or series? Ayocee 16:16, 7 May 2007 (UTC)

I think the specs are unnecessary. Rather, we should focus on the development of ThinkPad. I have a book ThinkPad: A Different Shade of Blue. I really love the book & you can order it for 0.50 cents plus shipping on Amazon, but I just didn't have time to fully implement the contents from that book to the article. (Wikimachine 22:56, 7 May 2007 (UTC))


 * Let me comment about the new section "Lenovo's Contributions to ThinkPad". First, the title is POV & inaccurate.... "Changes", "Fixes", "Additions", "Improvements" are better candidates. Second, it is my personal opinion that ThinkPads were as good as they are now even when they were under IBM... You can make a powerful computer without using carbon fiber, "roll-cage", etc... I think that recently companies have been adding these features as "technologies" that used to be inherent part of the products but lost or reduced over time due to price competition. (Wikimachine 16:56, 16 May 2007 (UTC))

No mention of the S series ?
These Thinkpad subnotebooks are ultrasmall, and still unique in their range, here's an article i found elsewhere. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 87.244.150.223 (talk) 22:13, 6 February 2007 (UTC).

What about the PC100? I played with one at IBM once, and they were incredible small... I am not sure if that is the one that could fit in a PCMCIA Type III slot, but at one of the IBM labs I saw a Thinkpad branded unit that when closed would fit into a slot in a normal size laptop. 70.242.112.141 11:47, 28 September 2007 (UTC)

LV and ULV CPUs
What happened to LowVoltage (LV) and UltraLowVoltage (ULV) CPUs? Are they any good?


 * They are good. You just don't see them very often because only ultraportables use them. I think the justification for this would be that ultraportables require less energy to run (smaller screen, usually no optical drive, et cetera) and you have to a balance of power and endurance.(Myscrnnm 17:02, 3 April 2007 (UTC))

And lower voltage CPU = less power consumption = smaller battery size usable. Tabby 16:03, 8 November 2007 (UTC)

APS and ISS
The APS is claimed to detect whether the ThinkPad is falling and to shut down the harddrive if it does. On ISS one is under constant free fall, so how comes the APS doesn't immediately shut down the harddrive? Is it possible to deactive APS or do the astronouts have specially designed ThinkPads? // Jens Persson (193.10.117.53 07:56, 7 November 2007 (UTC))
 * Yes, APS relies on software to shut down the harddrive. It can easily be deactivated. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 81.106.248.13 (talk) 18:29, 9 February 2008 (UTC)

To whoever keeps readding the section under critisism that Lenovo has a poor return period
To whoever keeps readding the section under critisism that Lenovo has a poor return period, I am a Lenovo employee working in direct sales where we have a 30 day no questions asked return people with NO restocking fee. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 70.52.184.197 (talk • contribs).


 * That's not what this Lenovo page says. --Michael Geary 07:38, 4 February 2007 (UTC)


 * Your link is to a special offer, which isn't official policy. Also, since the special offer had now expired, the page current does not work.  24.222.16.170 (talk) 17:06, 26 February 2008 (UTC)


 * PS, I had removed this particular criticism for the reasons given here. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.222.16.170 (talk) 17:15, 26 February 2008 (UTC)

That's Lenovo USA, Lenovo Canada has no restocking fee and is 30 days. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 70.52.184.149 (talk • contribs).


 * "Courtesy of International Business Machines Corporation. Unauthorized use not permitted."

If this statement applies to the suspiciously professional-looking photo of the ThinkPad, then perhaps the photo should not be here. -- Wapcaplet 05:50, 1 Sep 2003 (UTC)


 * I agree. This image should be under GNU or not here at all. Ilyanep 16:44, 25 Jan 2004 (UTC)

Ugh... I made some minor changes and the formating got all messed up :(

THINKPAD PASSWORDS
Does anyone know how to clear all of the boot password. I have tried taking the CMOS battery out. I have even taken it (T-22) apart and still can't get it to clear. IBM / LENOVO support told me that the motherboard hat to be replaced. This can't be the only way. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 75.117.188.191 (talk) 11:13, 9 March 2008 (UTC) - of course there was ways to clear it. the password is writen to a security chip, usually amtel, try google it instead of making a wikipedia entry. 24.193.251.249 (talk) 06:00, 11 March 2008 (UTC)

Remove shipping issues from critism section
to put these into a section of critism, i mean, you gotta be kidding me right? —Preceding unsigned comment added by O1001010 (talk • contribs) 07:26, 27 March 2008 (UTC)


 * The entire criticism section is pretty heavily slanted. I just removed a line complaining about how new Lenovo Thinkpads don't use the same AC adapter connector as the one IBM used for roughly a decade or so.  Sure, if you've got a stack of old IBM power bricks (...like me) it sure is nice not worrying about which one you grab, but do other manufacturers use common power bricks across their lines for years on end?  I consider the previous design more of a happy convenience, rather than calling the switch to the new design a serious criticism on Lenovo's part. Ayocee (talk) 16:42, 10 April 2008 (UTC)

R60 Series
I noticed that the Thinkpad article doesn't have a section for the R60/R61 series. I don't know enough about them to add to the article but it would be nice if there was one! Thanks. Aqua32 (talk) 04:16, 23 February 2008 (UTC)

It's pretty much just the T60/T61 - the parts are pretty much interchangable.

More importantly, there needs to be some investigation into the SL series, which seems to be something in between R and T. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Necrofear (talk • contribs) 04:58, 22 July 2008 (UTC)

Is the first line of Trivia subjective?
The first line of the Trivia section states that "The ThinkPad is widely regarded as having the highest-quality laptop computer keyboard available" but provides a link  that does not support the claim. The author of the cited source feels that the ThinkPad T-series has a great keyboard, but he does not mention experts who share his opinion. Stating that the ThinkPad's keyboard is "widely regarded" as the highest-quality laptop keyboard is misleading at best. (Dsrguru 18:29, 28 May 2007 (UTC))
 * I think that it would benefit from either rephrasing to "Some regard the ThinkPad as having....." or adding a few more citations. Do note that the current review is overwhelmingly positive about the keyboard (calling it "unsurpassed," "excellent," and "best"). So your only gripe is the quantity of people who share this opinion.  Surely similar glowing reviews could be listed too? --Karnesky 18:55, 28 May 2007 (UTC)
 * That is correct. My gripe is with the adverb "widely," which is unsubstantiated by the cited review. I have heard many positive comments from ThinkPad users about the keyboard, but unless supported by many sources, the claim seems too subjective. Besides, even if other similar reviews were cited, the claim that the ThinkPad is "widely regarded as having the highest-quality laptop computer keyboard available" would remain unsubstantiated because the reviews would not be in comparison to every other laptop on the market. I think that the original wording should be rephrased as you stated to "Some regard the ThinkPad as having... ." However, then it wouldn't be very noteworthy to put in Trivia, would it? (Dsrguru 19:57, 28 May 2007 (UTC))
 * Lenovo describes the keyboards as "award winning." If we can determine which specific award(s) it has won, I think that the best solution would be to note that in the accolades section. --Karnesky 20:32, 28 May 2007 (UTC)
 * That is a good solution. (Dsrguru 22:38, 28 May 2007 (UTC))
 * I can't immediately find the awards, though other accolades are listed at lenovo. For now, I'll just replace the quantity of people.  It'd be great if someone did find the specific awards, though..--Karnesky 22:46, 28 May 2007 (UTC)


 * It's unsubstantiated. I'll remove it. Malick78 (talk) 15:45, 22 August 2008 (UTC)
 * "Widely" is the only aspect that is not substantiated. You removed a true and cited statement--that a specific entity (Laptop Magazine) considers it to be the best keyboard. --Karnesky (talk) 16:43, 22 August 2008 (UTC)

Appeal for a featured visual representation of a contemporary model
I second (4th...5th??) the vote for a current and contemporary visual representation of a ThinkPad. In the context of the ever changing technology of consumer electronics, it's not too much of a stretch to consider featuring an old model on the page similar to prominently featuring a screenshot of 3.1 on the Windows article. Now I have no objection to retaining the image of the older model in the body of the article, but as appreciated the effort is to have successfully added that image to begin with, to continue featuring it prominently as a current example of the series is a disservice to the line. Additionally, retaining the current image in light of the several models and changes in design since, can be inferred as an expression of resistance to the direction in which Lenovo has taken the brand, or even their purchase of it. (Whether that is the actual intent, or not)

Clearly, the particular model shown is a favorite design of a user above, but that is a bias. (one which the user is happy to admit) However, that is not reason enough to focus on one moment alone in a longer history. As with any article on Wikipedia, there is a need to at least attempt to be objective. A currently manufactured line of products is discussed in this article, and to not feature a current representation of the product when one is available, and furthermore feature an representation of an older one, is inappropriate.

As a compromise, I suggest taking a hint from the Macintosh article, and featuring an image of an original IBM-manufactured 700C followed by an image of a current Lenovo-manufactured T series model. This would objectively present the original and current state of the line, and would appease any individuals who may remain resistant to current representations of ThinkPads in place of IBM-branded models.

As they say across the pond, "You can't say fairer than that". --24.47.158.215 (talk) 02:29, 18 September 2008 (UTC)

Thinkpads.com
I'm surprised that this site is not included in the external links section. The forum there was longstanding before Lenovo ever decided to create their own. Is there a reason for the omission? --24.47.158.215 (talk) 02:29, 18 September 2008 (UTC)

Thinkpad 110
Should the Thinkpad 110 be on this page? This was a Japan only palmtop model. I nearly bought one as a grey market import while I was living in Hong Kong, except it was a little under powered compared to the Libretto 100 that I eventually bought. Apparently journalists loved it because they could type with one finger while holding it in the other hand and because it had a built-in modem, allowing them to transmit typed stories back to the office. It ran Japanese Windows 95. More details at http://www.alfar.com/~amanda/pc110/ Stepho-wrs (talk) 08:46, 30 April 2008 (UTC)

T400/500 keyboard now sucks —Preceding unsigned comment added by 75.143.104.152 (talk) 06:06, 31 August 2008 (UTC)
 * The popular sentiment is that the T500 keyboard flexes more, and that may be the case subjectively, but if one is to believe this http://lenovoblogs.com/designmatters/?p=228 deformation test, the T500 keyboard deforms less than its predecessor.  —Preceding unsigned comment added by Aqn (talk • contribs) 18:10, 18 March 2009 (UTC)

Don't you think it should be noted on the main page that one of the staples of the Thinkpad line is now gone with the new T400/500 series? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 75.143.104.152 (talk) 04:57, 1 September 2008 (UTC)

I don't understand
"In 1995, the average number used was five, and in 1999 the average number was nine. " says the history section. ? --Airplaneman (talk) 22:06, 21 May 2009 (UTC)
 * It seems to be a very poor/partial/uncited quote from the reference in the following sentence. The quote with context: "The number of IBM ThinkPads used on a typical Space Shuttle mission varies by year. In 1995, the average number used was five, and in 1999 the average number was nine." --Karnesky (talk) 23:46, 21 May 2009 (UTC)

Update tag
Only some of the current models are displayed. The R60 series, R400 and R500, new T400s, and the whole SL series (discontinued SL300 and current SL400 and SL500) have no mention. 68.34.190.202 (talk) 21:13, 3 August 2009 (UTC)

Thinkpad SL vs R series
I have shifted the position of R and SL thinkpads.

Although R has traditionally been budget line for Thinkpad, the new SL which was introduced after the takeover from Lenovo is intended to be marketed below the R line(read : ultra budget and at enterprises).

There's a few reasons for this placements:

First, the SL is not a true Thinkpad - features traditionally found in a Thinkpad were not in the SL line. The RollCage for instance. There is some SL SKUs that do come with them but it is not standard options, which is my point.

This are the configuration for SKUs according to my local Lenovo website:

ThinkPad SL 410 28427RA

Price: 	SG$998.99 Model details

· Intel® Core™ 2 Duo processor T5870 ( 2.00GHz 800MHz 2MB )

· PC DOS 2000 License

· 14.0 " HD VibrantView 1366x768

· Intel Graphics Media Accelerator 4500MHD

ThinkPad R400 7438RW8

Price: 	SG$1,749.00 Model details

· Intel® Core™ 2 Duo processor P7570 ( 2.26GHz 1066GHz 3MB )

· GenuineWindows 7 Professional 32

· 14.1 " WXGA TFT with integrated camera 1280x800

· Intel Graphics Media Accelerator 4500MHD · 2 GB PC3-8500 DDR3 SDRAM 1066MHz

· 250GB 5400

· DVD Recordable

As you can see here, it is plain obvious the entry level "barebones" R series is much better than SL in terms of specifications. Therefore this is my reason to swap(and alter) their position

218.186.13.251 (talk) 03:56, 21 November 2009 (UTC)

T4x series GPU section, what are they on about
The wiki article (as it is currently) has the following text

"... an integrated GPU (Intel Graphics Media Adapter 900) or a discrete GPU (Radeon 7500, 9000, Fire GL 9000, Fire GL T2, and Fire GL V3200 workstation CAD card that is slower in fullscreen video editing and computer games, and most notably 9600 and x300 wich (sic) are faster for games)"

Slower than what? Slower than a 9600 or x300? Slower than a GMA900? Are they just referring to the CAD/3D perfomance of the Fire x cards?

This sentence makes little sense to me and has a typo, could just as easily read:

... an integrated GPU (Intel Graphics Media Adapter 900) or a discrete ATI GPU (Radeon 7500, 9000, 9600 and x300 or Fire GL 9000, GL T2 and GL V3200 cards). —Preceding unsigned comment added by BushLin (talk • contribs) 11:33, 22 February 2010 (UTC)

Thinkpad 600 battery issues
This is quite probably the definitive collection of data on the TP600 battery issue: http://www.levien.com/tp600-battery.html I didn't see any mention that third party batteries are a cure, yet the 600 paragraph here makes that claim uncited. 75.221.216.178 (talk) 06:53, 28 March 2010 (UTC)

Criticism, display, neutrality?
15" displays with 1400 x 1050 and 1600 x 1200 pixel resolution are no longer offered, including the popular IPS or AFFS flexview produced by Boe-Hydis.

I'm prepared to believe that some people criticise the range because they don't have a particular size and resolution of display, but I'm surprised that thinkpad buyers know or care who manufactures some of those, to the extent of finding the absence of that manufacturers display a fault. I wonder if this is a plant by someone with ties to that display manufacturer? (195.212.29.91 (talk) 10:39, 9 April 2010 (UTC))

ThinkWiki and Linux support
One of the features of IBM ThinkPads was the fairly consistent support of Linux. For a while, you could order ThinkPads preinstalled with RedHat Linux, and they offered Linux desktop support. Lenovo seems more cowered by Microsoft and does not offer this as a choice with current machines. IBM, or more precisely IBM employees, continues to provide device drivers, although the full complement of user space software has substantial gaps. So, while the innovative active protection software is NOT available, drivers (and some enduser software) for the underlying accelerometer is available. Via the open source ThinWiki website.

Also absent are the TPM software stack. This does not prevent use of some of the security features (e.g. hardware encryption of harddrives with key stored in encrypted module in ThinkPad was novel when introduced. Since it is part of the BIOS, it is invisible to operating systems.).

While ThinkWiki volunteers continue to make progress and release updates (which many Linux distributions like openSuSE pick up and include in their repositories), the option to purchase a ThinkPad with the consumer's choice of vendor supported operating system appears to have been killed by Lenovo (I don't know why--there has always been a hue and cry whenever Linux was made available or when taken away. Having Linux preinstalled with a graphic desktop like KDE or even GNOME makes Linux just as 'easy' as Windows. )

That said, hardware support for components under Linux has been quite good, with many models having full support. Some exceptions have included the use of WinModems (phone modems which only ran using Windows) and use of WiFi cards using the Atheros chipset (e.g. in X200). —Preceding unsigned comment added by 97.129.89.111 (talk) 14:19, 14 September 2010 (UTC)

x100e
"an AMD Athlon Neo X2 Single-Core MV-40 (1.60 GHz, 512KB) CPU" X2 or single-core? This can't be right. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 91.155.248.176 (talk) 11:28, 4 December 2010 (UTC)

Reversion of edits by Trevor coelho
I've reverted a bunch of changes made by Trevor coelho in addition to some subsequent blanking. I see any number of problems with Trevor's changes. Firstly with any article that is not in an appalling state a wholesale ditching of what has gone before and without good reason is generally not the best way to proceed, since it has already been subjected to a certain amount of peer review. Secondly it introduces any number of uncited and inherently unverifiable statements. I do not propose to go through them all here since I don't have two or three hours to waste, but problem areas are statements such as ThinkPad being unusual consumer machines. Where is the source for that? They began life as expensive corporate toys but in the early 90s the same was true of any laptop of the time. They soon became much more popular as consumer devices, not coincidentally at much the same time as laptops generally became more popular as consumer machines. Similar sentiments such as "One of the first major enhancements to the ThinkPad keyboard was seen in the T400s laptop..." are inherently POV and problematic without sources - what about the famous Butterfly keyboard for example? Pre-Lenovo systems as a whole seems to have been de-emphasised.

Trevor, if you want to reintroduce some of the content you have added please go ahead with selective additions and we can consider them on their merits - I do not dispute that there is some material that if properly integrated could enhance this article whcih certainly is not perfect. Junking a mature article in its entirety in favour of your own version that introduces more problems than it solves is not productive. Crispmuncher (talk) 20:35, 6 May 2011 (UTC)
 * Hi Crispmuncher. The idea behind the page update was to bring in more recent information about the ThinkPad line and not delete everyone else's information. Thank you for the suggestion on adding information to the existing page. I'll update each section periodically while retaining the existing content. For your information, I'm also updating the ThinkPad Edge page. I'd appreciate it if you could take a look at that page too, and let me know if you have any feedback. Trevor coelho (talk) 04:18, 13 May 2011 (UTC)


 * Much of the info is out of date, but the problem is that Wikipedia is supposed to be an encyclopedia, not a news site. There are plenty of those. All "currently" or "now" statements should be removed, and especially future statements about events in the past. Events that were notable enough to be relevant years from now should be stated in past tense with citations. For example: in 2008 the X model was introduced. And you are developing an independent article on the X Series, so that section should eventually become a summary to the main spun-off article. W Nowicki (talk) 21:04, 31 May 2011 (UTC)

IBM Thinkpad t23
Does anyone know when the IBM Thinkpad t23 was first released and when they stop selling them? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 74.202.254.22 (talk) 22:38, 3 June 2011 (UTC)

Major re-org
I started a cleanup of this article, and did not realize how much work it is turining into. There was a combination of much out of date information written in the present tense, and much duplication, probably added by different editors at different times. How about this for a overall style: first, a "history" section with a narrative in prose and general discussion. Then a section that goes through the various series, with pointers to the articles on the series when they exist. It looks like once in a while there were individual articles on specific models, but I would say merge all those into series articles or this one. Many individual model articles do not have any references, and are probably not notable by now, so it seemed like a reasonable compromise.

A question is if the model discussion should try to be in chronological order, or alphabetical, or some other logical order? It will take a while to sort out. I am thinking of a Lenovo navigation template which might help. W Nowicki (talk) 23:23, 3 June 2011 (UTC)

IBM Lenovo Deal Update?
The Article currently says "In 2005, the Chinese manufacturer Lenovo purchased the ThinkPad brand from IBM in a five-year deal, whereby IBM still helps in the marketing and support of these products."

It is now well into 2011, what happened when the 5 years ran out? Did that end IBM's support? Did Lenovo have to negotiate a new licencing deal?

Might someone clarify this statement as to its permanence? Thanks JJ Bosch (talk) 00:20, 25 August 2011 (UTC)

Need clarification on "early models"
Quoted from the text, "Early models" section: The first three ThinkPad models introduced were the 700, 700C, and 700T, which debuted in October 1992. The 700C had 25 MHz 486SLC processor, 120 MB hard disk drive, the industry's first 10.4" TFT color display, 2.2 in (56 mm) × 11.7 in (300 mm) × 8.3 in (210 mm) dimension, and 6.5 lb (2.9 kg) weight, cost US$ 4,350.

Why is only 700C's spec mentioned here? What about 700 and 700T? What's the difference between these models?

The design of the commercial versions differed significantly from the prototype's keyboard-less tablet design.

Are some of the three models (700, 700C, 700T) prototype and others commercial versions? Or, each model has a prototype version and commercial version? Or only some of the models have the keyboard-less prototype?

--Xiaq (talk) 07:15, 7 November 2011 (UTC)