Talk:Third wave ska

Reel Big Fish
The article previously read "Some bands that were part of the third wave ska genre — such as Less Than Jake, Reel Big Fish, Mustard Plug and The Aquabats — continued with less emphasis on horns and traditional ska rhythms, and have not achieved the same commercial success that they experienced earlier in their careers." The Reel Big Fish still have tons of emphasis on horns and ska rhythms, just listen to their new CD Monkeys for Nothin' and the Chimps for Free. I removed them from that sentence. Ash Loomis

Why hyphenated?
Why is third-wave hyphenated, when second wave is not? Night Gyr 00:58, 12 December 2005 (UTC)

Seems the hyphen is optional. It was included here simply of author preferance. I would not be apposed to changing it for the sake of consistency. --24.195.235.165 06:42, 30 January 2006 (UTC)


 * There's a grammar issue. You can say "third-wave ska", where "ska" is the noun and the hyphen is needed to create the adjective. Or you can say "third wave of ska", where "wave" is the noun. Right now the title is odd; the noun is "third-wave". - mako 03:25, 12 February 2006 (UTC)


 * Yes, this title is STILL grammatically incorrect; it should be 'Third-wave ska'. 82.45.161.53 02:05, 16 October 2006 (UTC)

I believe it is grammatically acceptable with or without a hyphen, as in the term New wave music. It would be grammatically correct to call it New wave of music or New-wave music, but nobody does so. Perhaps someone can check a grammar book or website to confirm. Here are just a few links that use the phrase "Third Wave Ska." One of them is BBC, and they seem to be pretty strict about using correct grammar.
 * http://www.bbc.co.uk/dna/h2g2/A847523
 * http://music.download.com/2001-8619_32-0.html
 * http://www.amazon.com/b?ie=UTF8&node=465952
 * http://music.barnesandnoble.com/search/results.asp?CAT=1001226

NOT THIRD-WAVE!!!
This is not third wave ska... It is most definitely second wave in style and sound. The three waves of ska refer to a sound and style, not a time period... Learn your history. They do not sound even remotely like Sublime, or the Mighty Mighty Bosstones... RBF is about the only band that has songs that even sound close...


 * Third wave is both a time period and sound/style.Spylab 16:39, 10 August 2006 (UTC)Spylab

Merge?
The section in the ska article is longer than this. Should we merge it? If we do, we better make sure we don't lose any info. íslenska hurikein | #12 (samtal) 23:56, 4 August 2006 (UTC)


 * The following discussion is an archived debate of the . Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. No further edits should be made to this section. 

PAGE MOVED per discussion below. -GTBacchus(talk) 19:26, 30 September 2006 (UTC)

Requested move
Third-wave of ska → Third wave ska – The current title is grammatically incorrect, and Third wave ska is the most commonly-used term to describe the music genre. When I tried to move the article, it wouldn't let me, because Third wave ska already redirects to Third-wave of ska. Spylab 18:01, 23 September 2006 (UTC)

Survey
Add "* Support" or "* Oppose" followed by an optional one-sentence explanation, then sign your opinion with ~


 * Support. Seems like a straightforward change to improve the grammar of the title. --Akhilleus (talk) 04:59, 24 September 2006 (UTC)

Discussion
Add any additional commentsSpylab 18:01, 23 September 2006 (UTC)Spylab
 * The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

Response to proposed merge between Ska Punk & Third Wave Ska
If there is to me a merge between these two articles, it makes more sense to merge Third wave ska into Ska punk, because Ska punk has a more precise definition and has more substantial content. Third wave ska is more of a wishy-washy term with disagreements about what it really means. Spylab 02:09, 4 December 2006 (UTC)


 * I don't think there should be any merge at all. Spylab 15:22, 18 December 2006 (UTC)

Response to Spylab's reversed merge
Isn't that thinking backwards...? Third-wave includes ska-punk, it's not completely vice-versa. It wouldn't make sense to completely skip over third-wave, seeing as not all third-wave is ska-punk... Now that I think about it, why not merge both pages into the main ska page and turn ska punk and third wave ska into redirects to ska?? FrogStomp 02:36, 4 December 2006 (UTC)


 * I'm not sure what the best longterm solution is, but I'm guessing that the ska punk and Third wave ska articles were spun off from the original ska article because other editors thought they needed their own articles. We should get opinions from other editors before any merge is undertaken in this case. Of all three articles, Third wave ska is the weakest, in terms of defining the subject, and in terms of the overall content of the article. There is a difficulty in exactly defining Third wave ska; some say it refers to a time perion, others say it is particular musical style and culture, and others say it is both a time period and a style. Also most of the content in the third wave ska article duplicates content in the Ska punk and Ska articles. Spylab 11:55, 4 December 2006 (UTC)

this page needs so much work
Third-wave was single handedly brought over by Bucket of The Toasters from the British two-tone movement. Third wave is both time period and progression of the ska genre to more contemporary sound.

Also, Sublime and No Doubt as third-wave ska bands? This is very questionable and has been debated to death by ska fans in the past. My opinion is that they are both more ska influenced in certain eras of their music rather than being a ska band. Sublime has a ska/reggae punk feel, while No Doubt is more of an influence. While some of their songs at the time of third-wave's height would fit closer to the category of third-wave ska, the bands in general do not deserve to be categorized as such. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Cosecant (talk • contribs) 10:26, 1 April 2007 (UTC).

Ska punk and skacore are subgenres of the third-wave of ska, and are not synonymous with the third-wave.

Ska punk and skacore are not part of the third-wave of ska, they are fusion genres which are both third-wave ska fused with punk, not ska fused with punk. Therefore, bands like Reel Big Fish, Catch 22, The Aquabats (especially the Aquabats) should not be in the third-wave ska article; most of the article should be moved into Ska punk and a new third-wave article should be made. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 85.211.131.94 (talk) 21:22, 2 October 2007 (UTC)

Third wave ska merge message
I oppose merging third wave ska into ska. The third wave ska article is long enough to stand on its own, and would make the main ska article too long if it was merged there. If anything, the section on third wave ska within the main ska article should be shortened. Spylab (talk) 19:47, 4 January 2008 (UTC)
 * I disagree. The "meat" of this article is about 2 paragraphs, while the section in the ska article is about 1, and they both say the same thing. A couple of paragraphs on 3rd wave in the ska article would be the best place for this. At this point this article does not have enough meaningful, referenced content to stand on its own. --IllaZilla (talk) 17:50, 7 January 2008 (UTC)

Rewrite
I made some big changes to this article. I know I'm violating a lot of Wikipedia rules because I added a lot of unsourced material and original research. But an article like this is not well served by sticking too closely to the rules. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 68.50.132.162 (talk) 23:19, 15 March 2008 (UTC)

What happened to this article?
It used to mention Catch22 and Streetlight Manifesto and now it does now? Did someone revert it, or some other deletion nazi destroyed it? 3-4 months earlier these bands were mentioned here... 82.139.0.45 (talk) 12:07, 11 May 2008 (UTC)

Each new revision of this article seems to be worse and worse. 1 year ago it was much more informative. Why are ALL the bands deleted? 93.105.146.121 (talk) 02:50, 8 October 2008 (UTC)


 * Find the better version and restore the information that should be included. ChildofMidnight (talk) 18:54, 12 December 2008 (UTC)

tense
The tense of this article changes from past to present often. I believe it should all be present. Soccrmastr (talk) 21:53, 8 August 2008 (UTC)

Oingo Boingo and ska
Here are a few tracks I've found online which will hopefully help you to see that Oingo Boingo was a ska band as well as a new wave band. They deserve a mention on the list of third wave ska bands and in the third wave ska article. They were more of a New Wave band, but most ska bands played other kinds of music as well. Madness was more of a pop band, Toots and the Maytals were more a reggae band, and the Aquabats are more of a rock band. But they all still played ska and are considered ska bands, it's the same with Oingo Boingo. If nessessary I can also provide additional sources (different from the ones in the Oingo Boingo article) that state Oingo Boingo was at least partially a ska band. The first three songs are some very 2 Tone influnenced ska tracks from the early eighties, which is when the third wave started. I think that should support stating that Oingo Boingo along with the Toasters and Fishbone played in a style similar to the 2 Tone bands early in the third wave.

http://www.imeem.com/agent-24/music/RIlw8txu/oingo_boingo_louise/ http://www.boingo.org/raresongs/ViolentLoveEP.mp3 http://www.boingo.org/raresongs/AintLifeEP.mp3 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ucpMFhAxOvY http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aZdycnbjpGI (this one's more reggae, but the Boingo Alive version is clearly ska.) http://www.imeem.com/jukeboxmusic15/music/6SmcW-7g/oingo_boingo_stay/?rel=1 (It's only a small clip, but you can definately hear the ska rhythms in there.)

Those are some ska songs from their early days, their mid period, and even their later days when they became more of an Alternative rock band. I can provide additional songs for more verification, but I think that should do it. Have a good day! Ash Loomis (talk) 00:07, 29 November 2008 (UTC)


 * Yest, they have ska influences, but they are not labeled as a ska band or a third wave ska band by reliable sources, therefore they do not belong in thoses articles and lists.Spylab (talk) 01:37, 29 November 2008 (UTC)


 * If you look in the Oingo Boingo article, I provided some sources where Danny Elfman (the lead singer and songwriter of the band) refers to Oingo Boingo as a ska band, as well an Elfman interview where the journalist describes Oingo Boingo as a ska band. Those seem pretty reliable to me, they're not just some guy with a fansite. Although they refer to their ska music as "ska" rather than "third wave ska," Oingo Boingo is still an American band that started playing ska in the eighties. That's the definition of third wave ska, so I don't see the problem with refering to Oingo Boingo's ska music as such. Also, the lead section says it's also a list of bands and musicians who played "ska-influenced" music and you admit that Oingo Boingo is at least a ska-influenced band. Ash Loomis (talk) 23:56, 30 November 2008 (UTC)

Yes, in one article, Elfman claims that Oingo Boingo was a ska band (or was at least ska-influenced; I can't remember the exact wording), and another article, in a non-music magazine (the Jewish Journal or something) does actually call them a ska band. However, neither of those can be considered reliable sources in terms of labeling which genre(s) the band played. In order for the source to be totally reliable, it would have to be written by someone who is not a member of the band, and who has knowledge about different popular music genres. And as you admit, no source at all calls them a third wave ska band, so labelling them as such on Wikipedia is original research. Also, I clarified the intro to list of ska musicians, to prevent every band that played a bit of ska-influenced music from being added.Spylab (talk) 04:02, 1 December 2008 (UTC)

Merger proposal
What do people think about the proposed merge?ChildofMidnight (talk) 18:55, 12 December 2008 (UTC)