Talk:Thomas Beecham/Archive 1

Revision
The "Thomas Beecham" article needs considerable revision.

Headings for revision:-

His family background - & Beechams' Pills!

TB largely privately educated - didn't attend any colleges or universities
 * Yes he did-- he attended Wadham College, Oxford Grover cleveland 17:02, 13 April 2006 (UTC)

Some dates for founding the various orchestras e.g. LPO 1932, RPO 1946

TB as London opera conductor cum impresario at Royal Opera House, Covent Garden, etc.

TB's friendships e.g. Frederick Delius (TB wrote his biography)

TB opposed to employing female musicians in orchestras - puts the anecdote about the lady cellist in context.

TB's status as "outsider" in musical world & his rivalry with Malcolm Sargent - & add the well-known anecdote about TB & Sargent.

The Selected Discography in the existing article is obviously a very rough draft! Revising this section would be quite a challenge. Obvious omissions

His Lollipops LP(s) His opera recordings of the 1950s/1960s eg Carmen featuring Victoria de los Angeles Some of his Delius recordings

I am a Wiki-rookie (to coin a phrase). Any advice gratefully received! -- Steve Kirby (London, England)


 * Two of Beecham's opera recordings are held in high regard as classics of their kind: La bohème (with Victoria de los Angeles and Jussi Bjoerling), which some consider the defninitive recording of this opera - it is mentioned in the article, but in a different context - and Carmen (also with de los Angeles). Ought these to be mentioned in the text of the article?

Clean up
I'm working on adding Wiki-compatible references, assembling extra biographical material and pruning unreferenced stuff. If anyone has a vested interest in any of the unreferenced (or inadequately referenced) statements in the existing article please give me a shout. Tim Riley 18:11, 26 July 2007 (UTC)


 * You've done a great job expanding and re-working this article. With 150+ references so far, I think that we can, at the very least, remove the "unreferenced" tag. Viva-Verdi 00:01, 30 July 2007 (UTC)


 * That's very kind of you. A bit more to do yet in the later paras. Do you think one might move some of the quotes to Wikiquote? I don't want to tread on any toes, but I think the balance of the article is damaged if there are too many anecdotes. Tim Riley 14:28, 30 July 2007 (UTC)


 * I don't think that there are too many quotes here; appropriately, they are mostly confined to the one section. Beecham's general wit is so well known that it would be a pity not to keep them in the body of the article.

London concerts in the 1950s
On another note: is there any information on his late 1950s performances in England? From memory, it seems to me that there was something of a "Beecham revival" with the RPO in those years and I recall Royal Festival Hall concerts and one in the Albert Hall (which I attended on or about 5 December 1958). They seemed to coincide with the release of some well-known recordings in those years, such as Rimsky-Korsakov's "Schererazade". Viva-Verdi 15:35, 30 July 2007 (UTC)


 * Between 1951 and 1960 Beecham conducted at the Festival Hall no fewer than 92 times. Jefferson gives details of a 1958 concert of Schubert 3, Mendelssohn 4 and Heldenleben, and of a 1960 one, featuring the Military Symphony, Schubert 5, Goldmark's Violin Concerto, On the River from the Florida Suite, and the Bacchanale from Samson. From The Times's archives I can mention two concerts in October 1958 (Bizet & Franck Symphonies and Saint Saens cello concerto; Prince Igor Ov, Antar Suite, Dance of the Persian Slaves, Scheherazade, and the Joyeuse Marche) a Delius/Sibelius programme in November, and also in No, Haydn 96, Schubert 5 and Tchaikovsky 4; in December Haydn 93, Mozart Violin Concerto 3, Haydn 94, Liszt's Orpheus, and the Gazza Ladra Ov. All these at the RFH. Your Albert Hall concert was, I imagine, Sunday evening, 7 December: RPO 'augmented to 105 musicians', in Tchaikovsky Serenade for Strings, Pathétique, and Francesca da Rimini. It was, as far as I can discover, Beecham's only concert there in 1958. Tim Riley 16:32, 30 July 2007 (UTC)

Thanks for that update. About 10 concerts a year, one a month of so, isn't a bad track record in those years.

Yes, I remember the Pathétique as being part of that 7 December concert. And, now you mention a November RFH Tchiakovsky 4, it's quite likely that I heard that one too through the influence of a music-lover friend who introduced me to a lot of good music in those years.... Viva-Verdi 17:15, 30 July 2007 (UTC)
 * I see you've added these gigs to the RPO section. I'll annotate them shortly. Forgive me if I trim them a bit, in the interests of general balance of the article. Tim Riley 17:32, 14 August 2007 (UTC)

Operas conducted by TB
Recent edit by Emerson leaves the text referring to a list 'below' but lo, there is no longer a list, unless I'm being exceptionally unobservant. I propose to restore it unless anyone thinks such a list unencyclopaedic. Tim Riley 17:28, 30 July 2007 (UTC)

Uncited statements
Would anyone object if I remove (pro tem, at least) the few remaining unattributed sentences? After, perhaps, another week? Tim Riley 20:00, 7 August 2007 (UTC)


 * Well, one approach approach might be to leave them there for a while in the hope that other editors may be able to find suitable references. But, failing that, removal to this Talk page might be another way of helping to draw attention to the need for work to be done. Viva-Verdi 21:47, 7 August 2007 (UTC)


 * A very good plan! I'll see what I can dig out and move any unsourced statements across to here in a week or so. Tim Riley 16:21, 9 August 2007 (UTC)

"Cleanup" still needed??? Why?
I think it's time to remove this tag. This article is so far from the original one (thanks largely to Tim Riley) that I'd vote for the tag's removal and ask him to be take on than honour.... Viva-Verdi 22:30, 10 August 2007 (UTC)
 * You are very kind! I have done the deed. Tim Riley 17:12, 12 August 2007 (UTC)
 * Back from vacation, I can only marvel at another wonderful job, Tim! The only suggestion that I would make is to add more "overview" info to the introduction per WP:Lead.  A longer article like this deserves a more substantial lead.  -- Ssilvers 18:22, 14 August 2007 (UTC)

Length of "Notes" section
Given the 150 or so entries, many of which refer to the same page in the same publication, is there agreement here that the refs should be stuctured so that some will read as, for example, 1a,b,c?

I'd be happy to work on it. Viva-Verdi 14:02, 17 August 2007 (UTC)


 * Actually, I see that we already have that in place for Note #6, so I assume no objections? Viva-Verdi 14:04, 17 August 2007 (UTC)


 * Absolutely! I am a bit rocky on the technical details, but all for it. Noble of you to volunteer. Tim Riley 17:49, 17 August 2007 (UTC)

French music
This section is gravely sketchy. TB's forte was French music. More needed here. Anyone? Tim Riley 17:55, 29 August 2007 (UTC)

Fair use rationale for Image:Beechamstoriescover.jpg
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BetacommandBot 05:02, 16 September 2007 (UTC)
 * Now done, as requested. Tim Riley 18:51, 16 September 2007 (UTC) —Preceding unsigned comment added by Tim riley (talk • contribs)

Madama Butterfly
The books I have read on Beecham give conflicting information on whether he did or did not ever conduct Butterfly. Has anyone got access to old programmes etc that could settle the point? Tim riley (talk) 16:20, 23 February 2008 (UTC)

Intro section
Good work on the article, but the intro section is too short and should provide a brief overview of the whole article. See WP:LEAD. Best regards, -- Ssilvers (talk) 22:58, 3 March 2008 (UTC)

The Bedford Estate
Needs more than just one reference.--andreasegde (talk) 01:07, 24 March 2008 (UTC)

Financial affairs
It's a little unclear to me whether the Sir Thomas referred to just after mention of the Official Receiver is the subject of the article or his grandfatehr or what - there's been no specific mention of the Receiver before, so tehse diffilutlies seem to appear out of nowhere. However, on the financial front, I did find the following references in the London Gazette:
 * - a winding up order for "SIR THOMAS BEECHAM'S ESTATE Limited."
 * - under the heading "First Meeting", relating to the same company.
 * - appointment of liquidators
 * - dissolution of the company


 * - liquidation of The SIR THOMAS BEECHAM OPERA COMPANY Limited

Amognst other, similar ones. David Underdown (talk) 20:16, 17 March 2008 (UTC)


 * Well as they're dated in the 1920s (the article mentions 1922 just before talking about the Official Receiver) it couldn't be his grandfather as he died in 1907 -- SteveCrook (talk) 04:02, 24 March 2008 (UTC)


 * True, I still think that section could do with some clarification. David Underdown (talk) 10:14, 25 March 2008 (UTC)

GA review archive
I have transferred the discussions and review reports to Talk:Thomas Beecham/GA1 archive page. Brianboulton (talk) 09:51, 4 April 2008 (UTC)

Eugene Goosens
The wikilink for Eugene Goosens goes to a disambiguation page for Eugène Goossens. Apart from the misspelled last name missing an s, and the common anglicization of the first name, I'm not sure which of the three articles on the dab page should be linked or piped to. Eugène Aynsley Goossens seems the best bet, but rather than guess, I'll simply point out the issue here and leave resolution to an editor more educated on the topic. -- Michael Devore (talk) 18:35, 4 April 2008 (UTC)
 * Very much obliged! Shall attend to. Tim riley (talk) 20:31, 4 April 2008 (UTC)

Incest and country dancing
I was surprised that there was nothing in the article about the famous quote often attributed to Beecham, "Try everything once, except incest and country dancing." Regardless of whether he did or did not say this, it's worthy of a mention in the article as it's so often attributed to him. Suitsyou (talk) 23:30, 28 May 2008 (UTC)


 * Did he say it or not? Find out for sure, let us know the reference, and then we can write something.  There are lots of his "famous" sayings that are hard to nail down.  Wikipedia is not a forum for perpetuating myths.  See: WP:V.  -- Ssilvers (talk) 00:06, 29 May 2008 (UTC)


 * Like very many musical bons mots this is indeed often attributed to Beecham, but is in fact correctly ascribed to the composer Sir Arnold Bax:
 * "A sympathetic Scot summed it all up very neatly in the remark, 'You should make a point of trying every experience once, excepting incest and folk dancing."' (Sir Arnold Bax, Farewell my Youth (1943)) Tim riley (talk) 16:37, 29 May 2008 (UTC)


 * …but Bax himself didn't say it. Should we put the quote on the Arnold Bax page? &mdash; $PЯINGεrαgђ  01:43 30 May, 2008 (UTC)


 * Hard, at a quick glance, to see a place in that article where it would sit happily, but by all means, if you think fit. Tim riley (talk) 06:27, 31 May 2008 (UTC)

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