Talk:Thomas McKinnon Wood

Requested move 12 July 2022

 * The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion. 

The result of the move request was: moved. Per evidence that "McKinnon Wood" is a barreled surname. (closed by non-admin page mover) — Ceso femmuin mbolgaig mbung, mellohi! (投稿) 23:20, 26 July 2022 (UTC)

McKinnon Wood → Thomas McKinnon Wood – Someone has previously redirected Thomas McKinnon Wood to McKinnon Wood, apparently assuming "McKinnon" was his preferred given name. The evidence I have now cited on this page shows that he treated "McKinnon Wood" as a double-barrelled surname, but continued to use Thomas as his given name, and therefore "Thomas McKinnon Wood" is the better common name for the page title. The system won't let me do the move myself, presumably because of the redirect page which already exists at Thomas McKinnon Wood.&#32;Stortford (talk) 07:08, 11 July 2022 (UTC) — Relisting. Extraordinary Writ (talk) 20:34, 18 July 2022 (UTC)
 * Might need a formal RM, as the page history shows this page being moved twice from Thomas McKinnon Wood to Thomas Wood and then to McKinnon Wood. — Ceso femmuin mbolgaig mbung, mellohi! (投稿) 19:41, 11 July 2022 (UTC)
 * This is a contested technical request (permalink). – robertsky (talk) 03:50, 12 July 2022 (UTC)
 * Some further points in support of him treating "McKinnon Wood" as a surname rather than "McKinnon" being his preferred given name:
 * His daughter Meta Eileen's death notice in the London Gazette describes her as "McKINNON WOOD, Meta Eileen".
 * Newspapers sometimes hyphenated "McKinnon-Wood", clearly treating it as a surname - e.g. Croydon Guardian of 31 July 1909 describes him as "Dr. T. McKinnon-Wood, LL.D., M.P."., or Manchester Courier of 27 January 1914 refers to "Mr. Hugh McKinnon-Wood, eldest son of Mr. T. McKinnon-Wood, M.P., Secretary for Scotland", clearly showing that the use of McKinnon as part of the surname was also passed down to his son.
 * Some modern historians index him as "McKinnon-Wood, Thomas" - e.g. A Kingdom United (Catriona Pennell, 2012)
 * Conversely, I can find no explicit evidence from contemporary sources or modern historians which indicate that he used McKinnon as his preferred given name. I can only presume that whoever moved this page to "McKinnon Wood" was assuming "McKinnon" was his preferred given name based on the many references out there to "Mr McKinnon Wood" or the like - but to my mind these could just as easily be indicating a double-barrelled surname as telling us what his preferred first name was. It's relatively rare to find him referred to just as "Mr Wood" though. In light of his daughter's death notice quoted on the page itself and the other evidence above I am satisfied that whilst his surname was legally "Wood" and "Thomas McKinnon" his given names, in public life he presented himself as having a double-barrelled surname of "McKinnon Wood", with Thomas being his given name. As such, "Thomas McKinnon Wood" is the better common name for this page in my view. Stortford (talk) 06:40, 13 July 2022 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
 * Oppose. The Times, the main UK newspaper of record, often refers to him as simple McKinnon Wood where it gives other people a first name or initials, suggesting they considered McKinnon to be his first name. It was not uncommon at the time for children to adopt their father's middle name as part of their surname, so what his son called himself is irrelevant. -- Necrothesp (talk) 13:03, 13 July 2022 (UTC)
 * I don't dispute that he was regularly mentioned in The Times and other newspapers as "Mr. McKinnon Wood" and "Mr. T. McKinnon Wood", but those constructions could be read as either indicating surname "McKinnon Wood" or preferred given name "McKinnon" and surname "Wood". Some examples from The Times though for context:
 * Court Circular, 10 Feb 1899, page 10: "Mr. T. McKinnon Wood, Chairman of the London County Council, and Mrs. McKinnon Wood..." (One would expect her to be listed as "Mrs Wood" in this context if McKinnon was being taken as his preferred given name.)
 * London County Council, 7 Mar 1900, page 9: "After a discussion, in which Mr. Dickinson, Mr. Harris, Mr. Beachcroft, Mr. Whitmore, M.P., Mr. McKinnon Wood, Sir A. Arnold, Mr. Stuart, M.P., and others took part..." (Note that none of the other participants in this list have a forename given - they are only referenced by surname only.)
 * The Education Bill, 18 Jul 1901, page 7: "The members of the Council who addressed the meeting were Mr. T. McKinnon Wood, Mr. W. Dickinson, Mr. T.A. Organ, and Mr. S. Webb..." (Again, note that all other participants are given an initial and surname only.)
 * Conversely, one would expect to find numerous references to him as "Mr. Wood" - especially on second mentions in an article where they've already given a first name or initial, but he is almost universally referred as "Mr. McKinnon Wood" at every mention, which to me suggests McKinnon Wood was being treated as the surname.
 * The most explicit piece of evidence to my mind is the death notice for his daughter Lorna (which I have quoted on the page): "McKINNON WOOD.—1st inst., at Starfield, Crowborough, Lorna Isabel McKinnon Wood, younger daughter of Thomas and Isabella McKinnon Wood, aged 17 years." That form of words almost certainly came from the family itself in placing the death notice - and I cannot reconcile that form of words with "McKinnon" being the man's preferred given name. Stortford (talk) 20:59, 13 July 2022 (UTC)
 * You misinterpreted what I said. He is frequently referred to as Mr McKinnon Wood in the same sentence as others being referred to as Mr William Foo or Mr W M Foo. There is no confusion as to what The Times is using as his first name in these instances. And I agree that he is also referred to as Mr T McKinnon Wood or Mr Thomas McKinnon Wood, but The Times certainly uses McKinnon as his first name on numerous occasions. However, given the ambiguity, I will not oppose a move to Thomas McKinnon Wood if no other more concrete evidence can be found. -- Necrothesp (talk) 12:05, 14 July 2022 (UTC)
 * The reference to "Mrs. McKinnon Wood" isn't as strong a piece of evidence as to whether "McKinnon" was seen as a surname as you think. At the time, women were often referred to "Mrs. Husband's-first-name Husband's-last-name". For example, Stephen Jay Gould recounts a story about his possession of the calling card of "Mrs. Charles Doolittle Walcott" in the essay "In Touch With Walcott" in his book Eight Little Piggies. (see here: https://books.google.com/books?id=_kOoVw0SIhUC&pg=PA222&lpg=PA222&dq=stephen+gould+calling+card&source=bl&ots=IVfl_GtNPE&sig=ACfU3U119rIZ4oC_jFvPBTM7_3b64MFp2A&hl=en&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwjdwaaSuvj4AhVol2oFHdleC7QQ6AF6BAgpEAM#v=onepage&q=stephen%20gould%20calling%20card&f=false) --User:Khajidha (talk) (contributions) 13:17, 14 July 2022 (UTC)
 * Sorry, I should have been clearer on the "Mrs McKinnon Wood" point - I'm well aware that married women at the time were often listed as "Mrs John Smith" or whatever. The point I was trying to make was that other couples in those specific lists were listed as "Mr. John Smith and Mrs. Smith", rather than repeating the husband's first name each time, whereas Mrs McKinnon Wood is unusual in getting the McKinnon repeated.
 * Also, on the general point of whether it's possible to tell the difference between "Mr Forename Surname" and "Mr Double Surname" without further context, it isn't always as simple as looking at usage for others, even in the same sentence. For example, I've found several examples of "Mr Winston Churchill" and "Mr Lloyd George" appearing in the same sentence or article, yet we have to rely on other sources to know that Winston was a forename, but Lloyd George a surname. Stortford (talk) 19:50, 14 July 2022 (UTC)

A Commons file used on this page or its Wikidata item has been nominated for deletion
The following Wikimedia Commons file used on this page or its Wikidata item has been nominated for deletion: Participate in the deletion discussion at the nomination page. —Community Tech bot (talk) 12:08, 17 January 2023 (UTC)
 * Thomas Mackinnon Wood.jpg