Talk:Thomas Merton/Archive 1

Entry too long and verbose
This entry is too long and verbose, and includes too much minutiae about Merton's life and his subjective feelings about this or that. The entry should say more about Merton's ample writings. Those contributing to this entry should keep in mind that there are now several long scholarly biographies of Merton, which are the rightful place for such detail.

A reason why Merton's joining the Trappists was an epochal event for them. The royalties from the Seven Storey Mountain alone allowed Gethsemani to install central heating for the first time, and made the American Trappist community financially comfortable for the indefinite future. Merton's principle abbott, with whom he repeatedly clashed, was not only a former Navy officer but a Harvard MBA.202.36.179.65 20:28, 2 February 2007 (UTC)


 * I agree that the article is too diffuse, including unnecessary detail, especially about Merton's early life (almost year by year). I would welcome seeing someone with better knowledge of the man than myself take the bold step of cutting out at least half.
 * --Philopedia (talk) 11:34, 5 May 2008 (UTC)


 * I agree the early sections have too much detail - each step of his father's travels, his toothache in Rome? Needs more of his accomplishments as an adult.--Parkwells (talk) 13:27, 23 March 2009 (UTC)

Translator
this article is informative, but seems to be lacking something... merton was a prolific translator, was he not? how did this escape inclusion? i believe he translated chuang tzu, and a number of other taoist and buddhist scriptures. i don't really feel qualified to write about him authoritatively, so i am not going to edit the entry at this time. one of the first issues of tricycle magazine had a great biographical article called 'the jesus lama' which might be a useful resource for somebody hoping to expand this page. the emphasis of the article is on his dialogue with tibetan buddhists, and represents him as the first person to effectively dispel their misconception that christianity is a religion of death worship.
 * Merton's translation of Chuang Tzu ("The Way of Chuang Tzu"), at least, was a 'pseudo-translation' - he worked from existing translations of the text into English, and produced a version that he felt most conveyed the spirit of Chuang Tzu in that language, as he perceived it. I don't know about his other work. Steved424 07:51, 8 February 2006 (UTC)
 * Yes, the Chuang Tzu translation was a cobbling together of others - Merton didn't speak Chinese, as far as I am aware. If he translated anything it was probably from French.  In The Seven Storey Mountain he mentions translating some Benedictine materials from French, but I don't know if those were published.Adso de Fimnu 01:01, 9 February 2006 (UTC)


 * Merton's work on Chuang Tzu is indeed a free adaptation, based on Merton's close reading of extant translations of Tzu's work into English, French, and German.202.36.179.65 20:28, 2 February 2007 (UTC)

Thanks for your input. As you know, "Tzu" isn't a surname, rather it is a title. But you knew that. It's like you said "based on Merton's close reading of extant translations of Mr.'s work into English, French, and German." —Preceding unsigned comment added by 69.171.176.72 (talk) 07:50, 16 December 2010 (UTC)

Friendship House
An article for Friendship House has been added to Wikipedia, which Thomas Merton was also involved with. I wasn't sure how it would fit into the current text of the article, so for now I've just placed a link under "See Also." - Mecandes 16:24, 15 February 2006 (UTC)

Feast day
On April 19, somebody assigned Merton a feast day. I didn't delete it, but am I mistaken to think that's reserved for saints? And I wasn't aware that an official cause had been opened for Fr. Louis, much less completed. 150.243.10.12 20:02, 4 May 2006 (UTC)


 * I believe he has been designated a saint in the Anglican Church; not sure about Catholic.--Parkwells (talk) 13:29, 23 March 2009 (UTC)

Merton's father
Is there any particular reason that my inclusion of Merton's father, Owen Merton in his background was deleted? It's worthy of note, since there is a valid link to Owen Merton on this site. Anyway, no big deal, unless someone has an issue with it. Adding it back... Cravenmonket 13:52, 17 May 2006 (UTC)
 * I was kinda wondering that myself. I'm glad to see it back.--Jlencion 03:40, 20 May 2006 (UTC)

American mystic
"...he is considered by many to be a twentieth century American mystic." This is a slightly problematic statement, in as much as it isn't backed up by any references, and moreover, Thomas Merton was not American; he was British. The statement is rather meaningless. I would be happier to see something along the lines of, "...he is considered an influential Catholic mystic", since his mysticism is irregardless of nationality. I can understand the American desire to claim Merton as one of their own, but he constantly referred to himself (in his autobiography) as an Englishman.Cravenmonket 21:15, 14 June 2006 (UTC)
 * However, he was in fact a naturalized American citizen. Not that I disagree with your change; it reads much better now.Dave Walker 17:40, 15 June 2006 (UTC)
 * If indeed that is the case, we should have some entry about his decision to become a naturalised US citizen. Do you have any more information? Cravenmonket 21:26, 16 June 2006 (UTC)

He referred to his English heritage/race, not his nationality. He had "an English face." He was born in France. His mother was American, his father a New Zealandian. He spent some years in secondary school in England, and then a year at Cambridge, but it's not correct to call him an Englishman.

He did spend his last days in a monastery in Kentucky...and was very active in America for much of his life. He could easily be seen as a very important "American" mystic and spiritual writer, even if his origins were elsewhere. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Solificus (talk • contribs) 02:47, 2 April 2008 (UTC)

"Early life" section poorly written
This section, which seems to be a translation, is poorly written and asks for maintenance. --Kripkenstein 00:29, 30 October 2006 (UTC)


 * I have rewritten the section, as I felt responsible for having authored it originally. Hopefully it is more to everyone's liking and adds more life to all those dates. {Mind meal 10:56, 30 October 2006 (UTC)}

Poetry external link
I just removed a link to a website with poetry about Merton (diff). The website appears to have been promoted on Wikipedia by the author (though this link was added by an anon IP). I can't find any non-Wikipedia references to this poetry and Merton, and have removed it as, well, cruft. But I wanted to post here in case I was wrong and this poetry is considered by experts on Merton to be a useful tool in understanding the man. Thanks --Siobhan Hansa 14:43, 8 November 2006 (UTC)

I'm mostly interested in Merton as a poet, and was disappointed to find so little about that in the main article. He is one of the great modernist writers using the English language. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Pia Ellinor (talk • contribs) 11:54, 10 June 2010 (UTC)

Possible source image
If no suitable photos can be found, licensing-wise, would a well-taken photo of a new Thomas Merton statue on Bellarmine University's campus be suitable? --Carl (talk 03:19, 1 January 2007 (UTC)


 * That would certainly be a good addition to the article, although I hope we can eventually find a good photo of Merton himself. Stevie is the man!  Talk • Work 19:32, 1 January 2007 (UTC)


 * Well, the statue photo has been taken. In lieu of an actual photo of Merton, how does that look? --Carl (talk 03:54, 10 January 2007 (UTC)


 * Thank you! Looks pretty good.  Stevie is the man!  Talk • Work 06:04, 10 January 2007 (UTC)

Capitalization of "Mass"
Can we have some consistency in whether the word "Mass" (in the specific sense of the Catholic service, which is the only sense it has here) is capitalized? I think it should be. Come to that, is there a discussion page anywhere for matters applying to all Catholicism-related articles? Philip Trueman 17:16, 16 March 2007 (UTC)

It is not properly capitalized. Many people capitalize it out of a sense of respect, but it isn't proper.

Wikipedia says you are butt-wrong. Why don't you go screw? Or better yet, go to Mass. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 69.171.176.72 (talk) 07:53, 16 December 2010 (UTC)

Length Tone and lopsidedness
Most bios of Merton are one third pre-monastic and two thirds monastic life which acurately reflects not just Merton's life but the significance of his life. This entry is almost the opposite. There is too much insignificant detail in the early part.

I was going to add in some stuff like his famous Louisville epiphany:

In Louisville, at the corner of Fourth and Walnut, in the center of the shopping district, I was suddenly overwhelmed with the realization that I loved all those people, that they were mine and I theirs. It was like waking from a dream of separateness, of spurious self-isolation in a special world. . . This sense of liberation could have taken form in the words: “Thank God, thank God that I am like other men, that I am only a man among others” [Conjectures of a Guilty Bystander, (Doubleday, 1968), pp. 156-57].

Also his struggle to find an apprpopriate solitude, his affair with a nurse in the mid 60s - there are a range of important things that could be added.

But I did not want to make the entry even longer.

What do others think? Should we edit down the early stuff and build up the later years?

The tone also seems a bit hollier than thou at times and very unmerton! I for instance changed the "rumoured to have a child" to a more forthright account of the facts as they are now generally recounted in Merton bios.

Marcusod 11:20, 31 May 2007 (UTC)

I have to agree with Marcusod. There is not even a mention of his name change after entering the Church. I would change it now- but can not remember it off hand - Father Louis ?something?. The point I am trying to make is that this article could use an overhaul- and hopefully from someone far better qualified in this subject than I. There is far too much focus on how "bad" he was, and not near enough about who he was beyond that VERY short period in his very full life.

--Caspere 19:40, 6 September 2007 (UTC)

Basic Principles of Monastic Spirituality
I believe his book Basic Principles of Monastic Spirituality is missing from the list. 71.93.238.7 15:15, 16 July 2007 (UTC)


 * So add it. It would be best if you can provide the publishing information including ISBN, if possible.  Thanks. ---  Theoldanarchist  Comhrá  15:17, 16 July 2007 (UTC)

Advertisement in External Links
The external link to Merton's The Book of Hours is merely an advertisement -- should this be removed?

-- An interested reader

Affair with Nurse?
How come there is no mention of his affair with a nurse (M.) that Merton had later in his life? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 143.105.104.108 (talk) 01:34, 1 February 2008 (UTC)

Because it is an unsubstantiated rumor. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 69.39.94.80 (talk) 02:47, 29 March 2008 (UTC)


 * That isn't true at all. 143.105.104.108 is right, and the story has been fully documented by many of his biographers. She has been referred to as "M" in biographies, and Lawrence Cunningham and Michael Mott have both explored the issue. It is clear that he had an affair, though whether or not it was sexual in nature is questionable; it has been described, by all accounts, as romantic, however. It is known that he would sneak away to meet with her in airports, local restaurants, a psychiatrist's office, etc; he also wrote love letters to her in his notebooks, even writing down reflections on the experience in the "Midsummer Journal." Furthermore, he was caught on the phone with her by a brother and reported to Fox, who told Merton to break off the relationship at once. (Mind meal (talk) 03:29, 29 March 2008 (UTC))


 * I've added a note in the biography section about the affair. It's referenced in several books, and worthy of mention. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Dbarefoot (talk • contribs) 06:02, 28 June 2008 (UTC)


 * I reworded the section about the student nurse citing the page in his journal (Learning to Love) that talks about the emotional affair. I will try to add more details from the book as soon as I can.  ~ Geaugagrrl talk 04:14, 11 December 2008 (UTC)

The affair with the nurse was emotional, but definitely not sexual. It was not consummated. At the time, Merton kept an extensive journal (1966-1967) of his relationship with "M". It's a full and honest account which he never expected to be published. He describes their temptation to become lovers, and his decision to remain faithful to his vows. This journal was published in 1997 under the title LEARNING TO LOVE. Younggoldchip (talk) 15:57, 27 July 2011 (UTC)

Incorrect dates?
The third and fourth paragraphs have incorrect dates. The third paragraph says that Owen fell in love in 1925, while the very next paragraph has Thomas leaving because of Evelyn in 1924. If Owen didn't fall in love but still spent time with Evelyn before 1925, someone should make that clearer. 65.82.118.188 (talk) 20:47, 2 September 2009 (UTC)

Process for Him to be Declared Blessed or Saint
I am surprise to notice that at least a church member of the Anglican Communion included him in his "Calendar of Saints" and the article makes no reference to the fact if there wasn't yet a movement in the Catholic Church for him to be declared a Blessed and eventually a Saint. I think this needs some expansion.81.193.214.44 (talk) 23:51, 30 December 2009 (UTC)
 * The Calendar of saints (Episcopal Church in the United States of America) includes many individuals who may be been righteous or even divinely inspired but who will never be named as saints in the Catholic Church. If there's a source for the lack of a movement to canonize Merton then we could include that, but we can't just make an observation like that and add it.   Will Beback    talk    08:54, 31 December 2009 (UTC)

Thomas Merton was one of the greatest Catholic personalities of the 20th century and to start a process for him to be declared Blessed will be less controversial then it was to declare the founder of Opus Dei a Blessed and later a Saint. From what I've searched in the google there isn't yet any process happening for this.85.243.69.58 (talk) 17:40, 12 February 2010 (UTC)


 * A quick search found a Time magazine article on 12 people who should be canonized but won't. Of Merton it concludes:
 * He will not become a saint because of his radical pacificism, which caused him to be censored even in his lifetime; because his curiosity regarding Eastern contemplative traditions struck some as heretical; and because he admitted to a variety of sins throughout his career that would give ammunition to his opponents. Certain intellectually-inclined Catholics, however, will continue to regard his wrestling with faith as holier than the boring compliance of some others well along the path to canonization.
 * However Time is not noted for its insight into the Catholic Church.   Will Beback    talk    19:48, 12 February 2010 (UTC)

I have to agree. This news is simply a personal opinion and denotes a lack of knowledge about some of the most known Roman Catholic saints. Is strong pacifism and his inter-faith dialogue iniciatives can only be seen as virtues nowadays. If it was like the news says, St. Augustine, who lead a highly sinfull life before becoming a Christian, aged 33 years old, would have never been a saint, and many others too. The "variety" of sins he admited during his Catholic lifetime, or at least, temptations, like when he felt in love with a nurse while ill, I doubt that they were enough serious to prevent a beatification process to start. Meanwhile there isn't really nothing similar to a Catholic Church movement for him to achieve that status, so the article should remain as it is.85.243.69.58 (talk) 21:55, 12 February 2010 (UTC)

Cite reqs
Many sources and passages in this article have been marked as needing footnotes for a long time. I'll start deleting tagged, unsourced material next month.  Will Beback   talk    08:52, 20 March 2011 (UTC)


 * I agree, it has many quality problems. History2007 (talk) 09:46, 20 March 2011 (UTC)