Talk:Thomas Owen (boxer)

Incorrect references to Owen holding the title
Unfortunately the majority of the content of this article is incorrect. Owen was never the English prizefighting champion and his matches vs Hooper and Bartholomew were not title matches.

The matches referred to here relate to a period where there was (arguably) no incumbent English prizefighting champion (it was either John Jackson, or the title was vacant). This is quite clear from reference to the contemporary sources Boxiana, Fistiana, Pancratia, etc., none of which describe those fights as title matches, or those fighters as champions or championship contenders.

Unfortunately an organisation called the IBRO (and website 'cyberboxingzone') has taken it upon itself to retrospectively decide who it believes were the best fighters during these sort of periods where no recognised champion existed and proclaim those fighters as champions. This is clearly anachronistic (and clearly comes under the Wikipedia definition of 'own research').

The closest we have to a canonical list of English prizefighting champions is the 1906 list provided near the start of Pugilistica volume 1 (between the preface and introduction) entitled 'Champions of England from 1719 to 1863'. This list was drawn together by Henry Downes Miles from all of the available contemporary material. Owen (and Bartholomew) do not appear on this list.

That Pugilistica list states clearly: Johnson 1783-91, Mendoza 1792-5, Jackson 1795, Jem Belcher 1800-1805. It isn't entirely clear when Jackson vacated the title (the concept wouldn't have meant anything at the time) - but it is clear from the contemporary sources that Owen vs Hooper and Owen vs Bartholomew were not considered to be championship bouts and the next recognised champion was Jem Belcher (1800-1805).

Anybody seriously wanting to claim that a fighter not on the Pugilistica list was genuinely recognised at the time as English champion would surely, at the very least, need to provide direct contemporary source material to back up the claim. Which is very much not the case here. Axad12 (talk) 09:24, 9 March 2023 (UTC)

Added external sources demonstrating Owen was not champion.
I've added links to external sources - Pancratia (1812), Boxiana (1829 & 1830) and Pugilistica (1906) including their chapters on Owen and full page references for his fights vs Hooper and Bartholomew. There is clearly no reference to these fights being for the championship, or to Owen (or Bartholomew) at any time being recognised as champion. Compare to the sections on Johnson, Brain, Jem Belcher, Cribb etc where those fighters' status as champion is made very clear indeed. Axad12 (talk) 12:04, 9 March 2023 (UTC)

Complete re-write
I ended up doing a complete re-write. The article is now several times as long, includes quotes from contemporary sources, links to the early source material and has the incorrect claims removed about Owen having been English prizefighting champion (see previous notes).

Can't help but think that the title of the article should really be 'Tom Owen' rather than 'Thomas Owen', as Tom Owen is how he is referred to in all the contemporary sources. At the very least the search term 'Tom Owen' should ideally link to this article in some way. Axad12 (talk) 15:22, 9 March 2023 (UTC)