Talk:Thoothukudi violence/Archive 1

Requested move 24 May 2018

 * The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review. No further edits should be made to this section. 

The result of the move request was: no consensus to move the page to the proposed title at this time, per the discussion below. Dekimasu よ! 11:24, 1 June 2018 (UTC)

Thoothukudi massacre → Tuticorin police firing, 2018 – Personal opinion of editor. Term not used by any reliable source of mass media Sarvagyana guru (talk) 10:42, 24 May 2018 (UTC)


 * Firing could mean "termination of employment" and "Tuticorin" s not an official name. As reliable source, The Gurdian call it as "mass murder". Suggested title could undermine the incident. --Ant a n O 10:59, 24 May 2018 (UTC)


 * Agreed with Thoothkudi. Article may be renamed as Thoothkudi police firing, 2018. Term is more neutral and also used by all major sources of information such as TV, News papers, Television, Websites etc. References and links are given to some prominent publications of India.


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 * Sarvagyana guru (talk)
 * Sarvagyana guru (talk)


 * How can you say these India medias are neutral? Therefore, I cited from The Guardian. Again, the terms firing is not appropriate. See above my comment. --Ant a n O 11:43, 24 May 2018 (UTC)
 * BTW, see some Indian media + leaders report.

--Ant a n O 11:49, 24 May 2018 (UTC)
 * On Tuticorin, Rahul Gandhi decries 'massacre' of Tamils
 * Tamil Nadu govt unable to give answers to Tuticorin massacre


 * You are referring to statements made by opposition leaders to the media. I gave links to the statements made by media houses and reporters. I suggest you dont belittle reputed Indian media houses. Whether they are neutral or not it is not for us to judge. If you presume that only Western media is neutral and unbiased then I can give you links to BBC and CNN. I hope they are neutral enough for you. They dont use the word massacre or anything of that sort. On top of that BBC uses the word police firing. Check it out
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 * Sarvagyana guru (talk) 12:08, 24 May 2018 (UTC)


 * The existing title of this article is meant only for sensationalism. These types of headlines are used only by opposition leaders to embarrass the government or by some fringe media to sensationalize. But no normal or widely read media house has used this kind of headlines as of today to describe this incident. I hope I have made my point clear. Sarvagyana guru (talk) 12:23, 24 May 2018 (UTC)


 * The guardian report as mass murder. When someone kill some, it is murder, and when it happen to many people, it is mass murder or massacre. You can't suppress it by "firing". Murder is differ than firing. WP:NOTCENSORED It is not sensationalism. There are thousand of article with the title massacre. Eg: Marad massacre, Manjolai Labourers massacre. --Ant a n O 13:11, 24 May 2018 (UTC)
 * I agree with AntanO. Precisly, the term "firing" has rarely been used by native English people for shooting in a public place, as a title of the article. However, we could see here a few articles ( 2 - 3) written by non native English speakers and they adapted the word "firing" for the title. The terms such as shooting, mass shooting, Massacre, Mass murder are the most likely suitable titles for an article, especially when encyclopedia is considered. In another view, "firing" is a cause and "murder" or "mass murder / massacre" is an effect. In this situation, we need to emphasize the effect. Wikipedia has several articles entitled with "massacre". For instance, in the first sentence of the article Columbine High School massacre, it is written as "The Columbine High School massacre was a school shooting ". The same could be applied for this incident as "Thoothukudi mass murder was a police firing...." --Senthi (talk) 00:12, 25 May 2018 (UTC)


 * Already articles for similar types of incidents are existing on Wikipedia: Forbesganj police firing; Koothuparamba firing; Rampur Tiraha firing case; 1993 Kolkata firing Angamaly police firing etc. So we will not breaking any new ground if we rename this article as per convention already being followed. Wikipedia Editors are not the persons to decide whether police firing on a mob resulting in killing of civilians constitute a massacre or mass murder. Whether this incident was a massacre or an another case of police brutality is subjective. As of today no major media has used the term massacre. In case some editors dont feel that native speakers of English will be confused with the word "Firing" then I suggest the article be renamed as Thoothukudi police shooting, 2018. Sarvagyana guru (talk) 02:55, 25 May 2018 (UTC)


 * What is your point? So far, you are not clear about the title change, and jump from one to another. Why do you want to suppress the mass murder as firing / shooting. Otherwise, you could as title related to Mass shooting since it link with death of 12+ people and 80+ injuries. --Ant a n O 03:34, 25 May 2018 (UTC)


 * I agree with AntanO. Yes, It is a Massacre.  — Preceding unsigned comment added by Masmara (talk • contribs) 16:40, 27 May 2018 (UTC)  — Masmara (talk&#32;• contribs) has made few or no other edits outside this topic.


 * It is definitely a planned massacre. I am from Thoothukudi some people sit behind and argue that it is not a massacre you don't know the ground situation — Preceding unsigned comment added by Praveen007kumar (talk • contribs) 02:59, 28 May 2018 (UTC)  — Praveen007kumar (talk&#32;• contribs) has made few or no other edits outside this topic.


 * I AGREE with the original title. It IS A massacre. A firing is when people are not killed ruthlesslesly. A massacre is when people fire to kill innocent civilans as was the case in Thoothukudi. Abesam (talk) 15:14, 28 May 2018 (UTC)


 * Reject proposed move on the basis of WP:COMMONNAME reported in reliable sources, on the basis of preserving a WP:NPOVTITLE, and on the basis of the WP:PRECISION of the title:


 * Multiple reliable sources either describe this event as the Thoothukudi massacre or Tuticorin massacre, or quote officials who do so. By contrast, no source uses the phrase "firings," which in English is a term used to describe termination of employment, not killing using firearms:
 * "The massacre in Thoothukudi..."
 * "Thoothukudi massacre is a tragic reminder..."
 * "Tuticorin massacre: Industries can’t grow at the expense of people..."
 * "The massacre in Thoothukudi..." (editorial)
 * "Why No Tweet On Thoothukudi Massacre? Angry People Ask PM Modi..."
 * "Workers across Tamil Nadu Protest against Thoothukudi massacre..."
 * "On Tuticorin, Rahul Gandhi decries 'massacre' of Tamils..."
 * "...black clothes in TN assembly protesting Tuticorin massacre"


 * "Toothukudi firings" is a euphemistic, rather than direct and accurate phrase describing the killing of a large number of unarmed protesters by police. For this reason it would be a non-neutral title, and since it’s also not used by reliable sources, would fail the requirements of WP:NPOVTITLE.


 * "Toothukudi firings" appears to describe an event where a significant number of people were fired from their jobs, i.e. their employment was terminated. If a title were to be adopted that didn’t include "massacre", “killings” at least would be better since this is more accurate (but not the term used by most sources). -Darouet (talk) 14:47, 29 May 2018 (UTC)


 * Its a planned Massacre. I disagree that it is just a firing. This is a Massacre. Police firing is an inappropriate word. Just because it is done by police, it doesn't mean it is firing. When you fire on innocent people and for the favour of a corporate company it is a planned massacre. There is not protocol followed, they didn't use rubber bullets, no water used on them, no proper warnings and even the police officer used a assault rifle. He was on the top of a van and its an aim and shoot. They are not terrorists to aim and shoot. The shooter is not in his uniform. He is in a casual dressing and voices in the audio heard "atleast one should die". Not even a single protocol for firing is followed. This is a planned Mureder. So Massacre is the right word to be used.
 * In anna nagar police shoot at 50+ protestors they were mostly school children. But the police deployed in the area are more than 100+ — Preceding unsigned comment added by Praveen007kumar (talk • contribs) 03:02, 28 May 2018 (UTC)  — Praveen007kumar (talk&#32;• contribs) has made few or no other edits outside this topic.


 * It's not a Massacre (Rename it immediately, it's misleading). There is enough documentary evidence to suggest that the crowd is violent and the protest is not a peaceful one.


 * 1) . With 144 in place all along the 7 kms stretch of the rally, the crowd (whether planned or spontaneous) continue to provoke the police personnel violently and vigorously.
 * 2) . Along the rally route the crowd set fire atleast at 40 different places, establishments, residential complexes, vehicles etc; More than 35 individual police cops were hospitalized; The Police restrained by only firing tear-gas shell.
 * 3) . Only when the crowd enters the collecterate premises and started setting fire at several different points with in the collectrate and then directly attacking the collectrate building it self, Police retaliated and the police shooting were ordered only afterwards.


 * This is the minimum possible defense at that unexpected final moment. Of course, the officials should have predicted the possibilities of the violence before; That's is the failure from the police intelligence. That's is the only weak point I find from the police side. Apart, the term 'massacre' is a high-capacity vocabulary to demonstrate absolute brutality. Reflecting upon the direct, circumstantial and documentary evidences it is a thousand times easy to argue for the event as a 'DEFENCIVE ACT' or PREVENTIVE SHOOT' than to as a so called "MASSACRE". -   Vaikunda Raja    :talk:   02:36, 28 May 2018 (UTC)


 * It is not necessary to argue who was right or wrong, and wiki is not the place for such arguments. The article about the incident and its result, the massacre. --Ant a n O 03:10, 28 May 2018 (UTC)


 * Indeed even if the protestors deserved to be massacred, the title wouldn't change. Also, I'm not sure if "preventative massacre," 'DEFENCIVE ACT,' or 'PREVENTIVE SHOOT' [sic] are phrases I've ever seen before. -Darouet (talk) 14:54, 29 May 2018 (UTC)


 * It's a Massacre indeed. Police firing is downplaying the killings. Please refer to the Boston Massacre where 5 people got killed and also see the list in the below page. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_massacres_in_the_United_States The thoothukudi incident is no smaller than this.--USer:prasvim85 — prasvim85 (talk&#32;• contribs) has made few or no other edits outside this topic.


 * Please remember to thread your responses (and stay in the same section) when replying to editors on talk pages. Best, Dekimasu よ! 23:20, 30 May 2018 (UTC)


 * I think many people are confused here. It does not matter what you feel. Your opinions are not to be published here. I just stated the obvious, but some group of editors are so overcome with emotions that they behaving like a newspaper editor trying to give headlines to a news for maximum impact. The term which this group is pushing around is not used by any major reputed verifiable source. (For reference check WP:IRS, WP:SOURCE) Editors here should not try to play the role of the judge, prosecutor and the executioner. Let us just be faithful to the facts sourced from reputed verifiable sources and use the term used by everybody else. Sarvagyana guru (talk) 11:12, 31 May 2018 (UTC)


 * @Sarvagyana guru I think you are the only one confusing here. In your own words It does not matter what you feel. Your opinions are not to be published here Even after enough material evidence have been provided above and other wikipedia articles with similar titles are given as reference, here you are trying to intentionally downplay the incident. Massacre is the obvious title here. You are the one who is trying to play the role of the judge here. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Prasvim85 (talk • contribs) 15:48, 31 May 2018 (UTC)


 * Sarvagyana guru asked not to judge, but what does he tries to do while ignoring given reliable sources? He never answer to all questions, but prefers to answer where he feels "comfortable". How could you say when unarmed civilians are aimed by battle rifle and killed? Which is the right place to use the terms/title massacre? and why can't it be applicable to this article? See from the beginning how you jump from one point to other point. Earlier you said "Personal opinion of editor. Term not used by any reliable source of mass media". But, the reliable sources is given. Now, you are talking about emotions. feeling, etc. --Ant a n O  03:07, 1 June 2018 (UTC)


 * The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page or in a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.

Semi-protected edit request on 4 June 2018
Remove section on TMG - Sounds like a conspiracy theory, and the citations and content makes no sense. 128.153.18.89 (talk) 18:46, 4 June 2018 (UTC) I agree, the section will be removed. No citations speak about the content of the section. This is not real news. Abesam (talk) 18:49, 4 June 2018 (UTC)

Repeated vandalism on a section titled TMG
The section does not have any reliable citations and there is one editor who badly wants this theory, which does not have any facts or proof, to be included here. I strongly feel that the said edit is being done with no NPOV. Admins should definitely intervene. Abesam (talk) 18:56, 5 June 2018 (UTC)

Edit Warring Regarding The following contents : Operation TMG - Thoothukudi Mass Gunning
On April 10th 2018, almost a month before the massacre a news circulated stating that Indian Intelligence, Government of India and Tamilnadu has planned for an operation through Police called OPERATION TMG. Operation TMG is leaked by some police officials. The news clearly stated Indian Intelligence has planned for an operation which would target protesters. The prime motive is to create a threat for life of protesters and to curtail various protests happening in Tamilnadu. The only difference between "OPERTAION TMG" news and Thoothukudi Massacre is that TMG was misinterpreted as Thiru Murugan Gandhi. The news deviated and presumed it is a threat for life of Thirumurugan Gandhi, none have predicted it could be an operation to kill mass number of Innocent people. It is now debated that OPERATION TMG is "Thoothukudi Mass Gunning". If details about OPERATION TMG is further investigated, it could establish that Thoothukudi Massacre is a planned Operation by Government of India and Government of Tamilnadu. Kindly refrain from vandalizing pages and from changing the order of sections. I moved this from the top to the bottom where this should be. The citations mentioned here are not reliable sources and they do NOT contain any information about the section you are mentioning.Abesam (talk) 19:00, 5 June 2018 (UTC)

You are providing with a complete wrong information. Dont be uncivil by calling others edit as vandal. You have vandalized by deleting a complete para without discussing in talk page. Wait for other editors who can act neutral on this. Stop edit warring.--Kavitha Swaminathan (talk) 19:09, 5 June 2018 (UTC)

You need to reach a consensus before including a section like so. The citations speak only about "Thiru Murugan Gandhi" and not about "Thoothukudi Mass Gunning". So the 'TMG' the articles refer to is 'Thiru Murugan Gandhi' and NOT 'Thoothukudi Mass Gunning' as you claim. Abesam (talk) 19:15, 5 June 2018 (UTC)

I have again gone through the two links that you have provided. Neither one of them talks about "Thoothukudi Mass Gunning". Abesam (talk) 19:20, 5 June 2018 (UTC)


 * I can't find any English language sources that describe something called "Operation TMG." -Darouet (talk) 00:37, 8 June 2018 (UTC)

Operation TMG : State Sponsored Terrorism
I have removed the Name ""Thoothukudi Mass Gunning" although it is widely spoken in TV debates. I have added two more reference which speaks that the killing is state sponsored terrorism. I am adding the content in a new title "Operation TMG : State Sponsored Terrorism". If you find something is objectionable please debate that here and don't delete the content completely. But i am sure i am writing proper referenced contents only. --Kavitha Swaminathan (talk) 18:17, 7 June 2018 (UTC) The following is the content

On April 10th 2018, almost a month before the massacre a news circulated stating that Indian Intelligence, Government of India and Tamilnadu has planned for an operation through Police called OPERATION TMG. Operation TMG is leaked by some police officials. The news clearly stated Indian Intelligence has planned for an operation which would target protesters. The prime motive is to create a threat for life of protesters and to curtail various protests happening in Tamilnadu. The only difference between "OPERTAION TMG" news and Thoothukudi Massacre is that TMG was misinterpreted as Thiru Murugan Gandhi. The news deviated and presumed it is a threat for life of Thirumurugan Gandhi, none have predicted it could be an operation to kill mass number of Innocent people. It is now debated that in OPERATION TMG T stands for "Thoothukudi". If details about OPERATION TMG is further investigated, it could establish that Thoothukudi Massacre is a planned Operation by Government of India and Government of Tamilnadu. --Kavitha Swaminathan (talk) 18:19, 7 June 2018 (UTC)

It is now debated that in OPERATION TMG T stands for "Thoothukudi" -- Who debated? Many HAS condemned the issue calling it state-sponsored terrorism. I concur with this. The article already speaks about this. There is no need for a separate section. And what is the relation between State-sponsored terrorism and TMG? What is your fixation with adding the term TMG here? It serves no purpose. In all the citations that you have provided, TMG refers only to Thiru Murugan Gandhi who is not related to this massacre. Kindly reach consensus before adding such irrelevant section. Abesam (talk) 20:46, 7 June 2018 (UTC)

Operation TMG is planned to curtail peoples protests, this is clear in all citations provided. Thoothudi Massacre is the only operation executed. In all the citations that i have provided, it says operation TMG may be Thiru Murugan Gandhi. It does not confirm TMG is Thiru Murugan Gandhi. You know it is a crime committed by the state, we wont get confirmation on this from Prime Minister or Chief Minister. Whats wrong in providing readers with available facts? Why should we hide? --Kavitha Swaminathan (talk) 21:34, 7 June 2018 (UTC)


 * As I noted above, I can't find any English language sources that describe something called "Operation TMG." Please don't post here on this topic unless you can link to newspaper articles describing the operation you've mentioned. -Darouet (talk) 00:38, 8 June 2018 (UTC)

Loosen edit restriction to logged-on users
There is starting to be more information regarding things like the death toll for this massacre, so I believe that we should loosen restrictions on editing to just logged-on users. BobCheetoFingers (talk) 14:26, 17 June 2018 (UTC)
 * At the moment, you should do Edit requests. --Ant a n O 02:38, 18 June 2018 (UTC)