Talk:Thornography

The page as it is now
This is a not an encyclopedic article. The sources are presented in an advertisement style. If you want to source something, then give a link, don't just say MTV said so. It actually does not add to the article to list who said what as it comes off more as advertisement for the source. It does make sense to use Roadrunner Records, since they are the record label, but MTV has no real connection to the band. Further, until more than just an advertisement is present, I'm not even sure this should be an article. I'm going to revert to my last edit in hopes that this page as it is now will be noted as an advertisement. I also hope the rest of the page is cleaned up so that it doesn't come off as pure speculation. marnues 18:05, 24 April 2006 (UTC)
 * Seriously, are you joking? Are you proposing that we only ever use primary sources? The fact that 'MTV has nothing to do with the band' is perfect reasoning to use them as a source- come on... J Milburn 17:53, 12 April 2007 (UTC)

Album Title
Consisting with the album's themes ("Crown of thorns", sin and sexuality), the "Th" digraph in Thornography is supposed to be contextualized as the old English https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thorn_(letter) which would render as Þornography.

There's a fairly long history of similar tongue-in-cheeks with the most recent one being https://www.smbc-comics.com/comic/thorn. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 185.3.145.184 (talk) 16:27, 19 July 2022 (UTC)

Picture
Can we really say that is the picture for the album cover? That particular album cover has been banned, so it won't be the one the album will have, a new one will be released. Then again, I suposse we could have that one UNTIL the new one is released. The Haunted Angel 12:58, 6 June 2006 (UTC)

Ignore what I said, I have just discovered this is not the banned cover. The Haunted Angel 12:58, 6 June 2006 (UTC)


 * Where IS the banned cover and why does the article say "see box" when what's in the box is NOT the banned cover? -Iopq 10:08, 8 June 2006 (UTC)

I don't know, I didn't write it =\ But I think it is generraly assumed that this is the banned cover because its the only one we have seen, but the [www.creadleoffilth.com Cradle of Filth] site specificly states that this is the 'legal' cover. I am assuming they will show the banned version either on the site, in the Thornography booklet, or both. The Haunted Angel 11:50, 8 June 2006 (UTC)


 * I don't understand what the problem is. That section says, and has always said, "A second album cover has now been released (see box)".  How is that unclear? There's no suggestion at all that the cover in the box is the "banned" one.  --Cardinal Wurzel 12:58, 5 July 2006 (UTC)

It's because I thought that this was the banned cover, but I have found out that it is not. After a short conversation with Sarah Jezebel at Download (which I am orgasmic about) it is unknown why the original was banned, aparently it was just a little more harsh then this one. The banned cover is yet to be revealed, there is no dispute. The Haunted Angel 00:09, 6 July 2006 (UTC)

Libertina Grimm
The "Libertina Grimm" that surfaced is just "Limbs" from Agalloch's new CD. Mislabelled on LimeWire and such like so many other fkn Cradle songs, so I added that little note. --R-Tiztik 22:58, 8 September 2006 (UTC)

Temptation
Temptation on Thornography is performed with a female vocalist, but it says Stay had Liv Kristne. could it be that Temptation is really the track featuring Kristne or maybe both? (i doubt both but who knows?)--R-Tiztik 02:10, 14 September 2006 (UTC)


 * Haven't heard it yet, but that report came from Cradle's official website. It's in one of the Thornography studio updates - have a look.  Cardinal Wurzel 06:58, 14 September 2006 (UTC)


 * It could be Jezebel Deva.. but the female vocals sound a bit more punk-ish and faster then any of her other parts in Cradle.. doesnt really sound like its her. --R-Tiztik 20:15, 14 September 2006 (UTC)

I've found the relevent paragraph - it's in "Studio Update 2" at www.cradleoffilth.com. The female vocals on Temptation are by Harry from Dirty Harry (myspace.com/dirtyharryrocks):
 * "Of the other two covers, there is news. We have decided to undertake the following tracks....'Stay' by Shakespeare's Sister, which will be see Liv Kristine again sharing vocal duties and 'Temptation' by eighties new wavers Heaven 17, which will also see Harry (formally of 'Dirty Harry') guest. These songs were chosen mainly for their challenge rather than their gay icon status and the need to tackle other more predictable cover versions... these things breaking up the studio session like a breath of foetid air when they're attacked with a certain flair of creativity..." Cardinal Wurzel 20:30, 14 September 2006 (UTC)

Now it makes sense lol. --R-Tiztik 23:09, 14 September 2006 (UTC)

Black Metal??
i'm not entirely sure this classes under Black Metal?


 * It's not meant to be, but some idiots keep changing the damn genre. I'll fix it. The Haunted Angel 12:32, 15 September 2006 (UTC)


 * Now someone changed the genre to Heavy Metal -_-


 * I know, fixed. Bloody ignorant ass's. The Haunted Angel 11:00, 17 September 2006 (UTC)


 * I added a "<!- - PLEASE READ THE TALK PAGE BEFORE CHANGING!  - ->" to the Crossover part so that hopefully people are gonna think twice or pay any attention to this dispute. --R-Tiztik 22:58, 17 September 2006 (UTC)

The only aspect of any black metal would be some of the vocals that Dani incorporated. It has more of a Thrash Metal sound. The inclusion of what sounds to be Shredding and in 'Tonight in Flames" the riff sounds like it was taken from Metallica's ...And Justice For All. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Valentine109 (talk • contribs) 16:51, 21 December 2010 (UTC)

"Stay"?
If the interview in the new Cradle website is correct, then the track "Stay" WAS recorded.. --R-Tiztik 21:06, 10 October 2006 (UTC)

Yes, they mention recording it with Sarah Jezebel Deva. That doesn't contradict anything we've said... Cardinal Wurzel 21:44, 10 October 2006 (UTC)

Ah, shit, didnt realize that lol--R-Tiztik 01:07, 11 October 2006 (UTC)

Banned artwork
I just got home from picking up Thornography and I just wanted to clarify that the banned artwork isn't found anywhere in the CD booklet or inlay, like was hoped. --R-Tiztik 22:08, 16 October 2006 (UTC)

Crossover?
I see no mention anywhere of the justification of classifying this album as "Crossover". A crossover from what to what? It definitely needs more clarification. I recommend switching the genre to Extreme metal.
 * Cparker 19:11, 5 November 2006 (UTC)


 * Unfortunatly, we cannot give Cradle a definate genre for any of their albums save the early stuff, lest it becomes POV.  The Haunted Angel  (The Forest Whispers My Name) 21:46, 5 November 2006 (UTC)


 * Why not "heavy metal"? Or, at the very, very least, "rock"?  No one debates that much, at least, and at least it is more specific than "crossover", which could mean crossover of blues and disco for all the reader knows. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 24.238.170.154 (talk) 23:47, 8 December 2006 (UTC).


 * Another thing. The "crossover" link links to a paragraph in an article which begins by discussing '80s crossover thrash...god forbid someone clicks the link and thinks Cradle of Filth is crossover thrash!  The genre really needs to be listed as "heavy metal" or something, to avoid confusion.

PearlTheater 04:24, 9 December 2006 (UTC)


 * Well, it's not a stretch to say that Thornography is heavily influenced by Thrash Metal. Just listen to the riffs and fills. It's a bit Iron Maiden-esque too. AnthonyG 05:41, 25 April 2007 (UTC)

It links to a paragraph titled "Crossover as Music of Mixed Genres" which then describes several examples. It's not perfect, but the inference is fairly clear I think. It's not rocket science. Cardinal Wurzel 12:45, 10 December 2006 (UTC)


 * Why not Dark Metal? -- CecilK 19:35, 10 December 2006 (UTC)


 * Dark Metal is something I thought Cradle being for a good while, unfortunatly they don't compltetly fall into that genre, not even this album. The Haunted Angel (The Forest Whispers My Name) 19:50, 10 December 2006 (UTC)

some moron
put the same phrase on all the pages saying cradle of filth has only two original members and some "hired hands". what does this have to do with thornography? some one needs to get rid of it because it has nothing to with this album and is a questionable statement to begin with.


 * Wut? Where? Oh, and please do not remove the Cradle template. ≈ The Haunted Angel //The Forest Whispers My Name// 22:42, 20 February 2007 (UTC)

its been taken care of already. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Dedman-88 (talk • contribs)

Reviews and copyright
Just quoting a whole review and leaving it at that is blatantly a copyright violation, not to mention biased. That section really needs sorting. I can't believe that it has stayed like that. If someone has not dealt with it/replied to me by tomorrow, I am just going to remove it. J Milburn 17:57, 12 April 2007 (UTC)

They aren't whole reviews, they are massively shortened, hence all the "..." Cardinal Wurzel 21:54, 12 April 2007 (UTC)
 * Still, is there any need for them? I certainly think not. A large amount is used, albeit not the whole review, but it could still be a violation of our fair use policy there. Also, they do not add much to the article- we have the section for reviews in the infobox, I do not think, at all, that we need more reviews. Comparing to Reign in Blood, which is a metal album article at featured level, there is a reception section, which is good, but certainly no reviews copied out. A few words, less than a line, yes, but this much just seems ludicrous. J Milburn 22:07, 12 April 2007 (UTC)

How does it not add to the article? It's an article about an album and those quotes give a good overview of how that album was received in the professional rock press (as opposed to the amateur online reviews we link to), with a balanced mix of positive and negative. They are quotes, not the full reviews, and they are fully attributed to their original authors and magazines. They are not a breach of copyright, any more than any other sourced references in any other encyclopaedia. Sorry if you find them ludicrous. I find it quite ludicrous to be spoken to in this way by a 16 year old, but there you go. Cardinal Wurzel 18:10, 13 April 2007 (UTC)
 * My age is irrelevent. I have never seen another article in which reviews have been copied out in this manner- it is simply not encyclopedic, as far as I can see. I will seek additional input- you may well be right, but I do not think they should be there. J Milburn 23:18, 13 April 2007 (UTC)

First of all, I think the 16 year old remark was way out of line. Secondly, a Wikipedia article needs to be free; when you add three paragraphs of non-free material under fair use, you're taking away from the freeness article albeit in order to improve it but the cons outweigh the pros as we're looking to build a *free* encyclopedia. A sentence might be fine, if we're being generous maybe even one from each review but even if those three paragraphs are permitted under fair use laws (which I am not even sure they are), they aren't allowed on Wikipedia since we want our content to be free and not just legal. Yonatan talk 23:27, 13 April 2007 (UTC)


 * I still think it's absurd to say that quoting somebody is a breach of copyright. It isn't even a fair use issue.  And incidentally, Mr Milburn, there's a paragraph-long quote in the Reign in Blood section you specifically mentioned as a good example.  Certainly not "a few words, less than a line".  But fine, maybe ours were a bit lengthy.  I've cut them down, but I still don't agree that they have no place in the article, for the reasons outlined above.  Cardinal Wurzel 16:58, 14 April 2007 (UTC)

What would one class this album as? It's by no means black metal, and it leans more towards a power-metal style. 220.253.99.157 12:12, 15 August 2007 (UTC)


 * Heh, I wouldn't call it Power metal, although I most certainly see where you're coming from. No, personally, I'd call it "Extreme gothic metal", is this is Cradle's release most fitting for this name, in my opinion. ≈  The Haunted Angel  12:40, 15 August 2007 (UTC)

Halloween
That's very odd... On all the websites, such as HMV... Amazon... Roadrunner... and even Cradles Site, they listed HW2 as Halloween III (Season of the Bitch) but on the actual CD release itself it's now Halloween II... Anyone know why the title was changed? Alinblack (talk) 18:05, 5 February 2008 (UTC)
 * No idea; but I'm guessing that they'll explain it sometime in the near future. ≈  The Haunted Angel  19:20, 5 February 2008 (UTC)

B-class
I've updated the page substantially - mainly to include personnel and such. This article was listed as "B-class" before I did this, although technically the assessment grid states that the full technical personnel must be listed in order for it to reach B-class; at least now it qualifies. However, I'm guessing that there's a thousand other articles that are masquerading as B-class, when they do not qualify. If anyone wishes to update them as I have done this, it'd certainly help :) ≈  The Haunted Angel  23:15, 2 April 2008 (UTC)

the fuck...
why is there no tracklist?

because some knob removed it. it's back now. Cardinal Wurzel 28/06/09, 21:39 GMT

CRADLE OF FITH
'''I AM NUTCASE TO CRADLE OF FITH I LIKE THE BLACK METAL my name is Christine SIGNORINO I'M French. Yes, Cradle of fith IS.......................GREAT !!! tx to you and : HOURRA CRADLE OF FITH.♥♥♥ — Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.220.196.13 (talk) 20:30, 26 September 2013 (UTC)