Talk:Those Whom the Gods Detest

Leak
I believe leaked information about the Nile album should be included in the Wikipedia article. YouTube and Nuclear Blast are currently and apparently in conflict as we speak, pertaining to the amount of leaked songs appearing on YouTube. I don't see why I can't add the information on the article. I mean, it IS notable information. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 76.169.255.119 (talk) 06:37, 29 September 2009 (UTC)
 * Well, that's a legitimate thought. I'm not saying I agree; I'm just saying that you have a good point there. However, if commentary about the leak is put on without a reference, it will be removed; there's no doubt about that. Only when it is sourced can it be taken seriously. I will notify a fellow wikipedian about this to see what they think, for the skae of extra opinions concerning this matter. Backtable Speak to Me  about what I have done  00:37, 30 September 2009 (UTC)
 * I wouldn't consider commentary on YouTube or on the website for the band's label to be notable enough for inclusion. It would take mention by a third-party, professional source for inclusion. J04n(talk page) 00:56, 30 September 2009 (UTC)
 * That sounds strange. Information posted on the official bands website is only real information if some other third party writes about this information on the official bands website? Doesn't make any sense. ;-) --92.77.164.239 (talk) 11:17, 28 October 2009 (UTC)

Okay, I understand where you're coming from. Putting unreferenced material on Wikipedia doesn't make a whole lot of sense, I understand that now. Thanks. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 76.169.255.119 (talk) 04:53, 30 September 2009 (UTC)
 * No problem. Backtable Speak to Me  about what I have done  23:44, 30 September 2009 (UTC)

Kem Khefa Kheshef
I've found no source anywhere to the title of the 8th track being "Kem Khefa Kheshef (Driving Off the Rerek Snake)", so I removed the parenthesis.


 * That's okay by me. Backtable Speak to Me  about what I have done  19:31, 27 November 2009 (UTC)

Drumming BPM
I calculated how many seconds George Kollias does 280 bpm on the album, I removed the parts of the album where he wasn't drumming at all. George Kollias does about 492 seconds of 280 bpm on the album and I reduced the time of the album to 2,949 seconds; in which George is actually drumming. 492/2,949= .1668>>> .167 >>> 16.7%. There were MANY parts in some songs that I could not tell if he was doing 270 bpm or 280 bpm, but what I mainly noticed Kollias did 8th notes on the snare drum when he was doing 260-270 bpm double bass, but there were a lot of exceptions, where Kollias does 280 bpm 16th note blast beats, which sound incredibly similar to 260-270 8th/16th note blast beats, but I didn't count for blast beats, I only counted the 280 bpm segments which a lot of them were 1 second to 5 seconds. On the song 4th Arra Of Dagon George Kollias does 280 bpm for 30 seconds beginning at 2:42 and ends at 3:12 and then again towards the end of the song, but this time he does it for 34 seconds 6:36 - 7:10. Kafir has the most 280 bpm double bass on the album in which he collectively does 131 seconds which adds up to 33.6% of the song. Contrary to popular belief, ' Permitting The Noble Dead To Descend To The Underworld ' and ' The Eye Of Ra' don't have the longest 280 bpm runs, they're actually the slowest; they're 260-270 bpm with around 3% of 280 bpm. I discovered as I was calculating the bpm on this album that: George Kollias does a lot more 270 bpm than 280 bpm, I'm not going to calculate how much, but I'm sure it's close to 40% of the album. The most difficult song on this album is ' The Eye Of Ra ', in which Kollias does 280 bpm while doing 4th notes on the snare, which is complete madness, since most drummers that do at least 250-280 can only do whole notes on the snare.

In conclusion, the error of my calculation would be around 1 to 2% since in a couple of occasions I couldn't tell if it was 270 or 280. What I calculated was the absolute minimum; 16.7%-18% is possible the best conclusion I can make. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 67.168.242.86 (talk) 05:56, 6 November 2012 (UTC)
 * Thanks for your analysis of George Kollias's drumming, as well as for your contributions. However, I'm afraid some of this information breaches guidelines such as original research and reliable sourcing. In order for information like this to be on Wikipedia, as the reliable sourcing guidelines state, it needs to have a credible and reputable source attached to it. I'm quite sorry, but those are just some aspects about Wikipedia which are relevant here.


 * Also, adding slam death metal to the infobox is not needed because of the above reasons and because that link simply redirects to death metal.


 * With that said, thanks and have a nice day. Backtable Speak to meconcerning my deeds. 07:04, 6 November 2012 (UTC)

The song ' 4th Arra of Dagon ' is a slam death metal song. That's why I put slam death in the genres. Do I need to make an account of a metal website and become a reviewer and post reviews on the bpm of this album for it to not be taken down? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 67.168.242.86 (talk) 02:46, 7 November 2012 (UTC)


 * Well, some sort of publishing from a reputable source would be recommended. Be it as a staff member of a website, or in a published book, or something like that. Backtable Speak to meconcerning my deeds. 07:23, 7 November 2012 (UTC)

Well that's too bad. I was going to research death metal albums that are known for their 270-280 bpm songs and calculate how much is actually done, but if you're just going to take them down because you're worried about credibility on obscure albums from obscure bands within an obscure genre of music, then jesus christ fuck it. It's not even a big deal. I've listened to thousands of hours of 250-280 bpm and I know exactly what it sounds like.


 * Well, good luck on studying that. I'm sorry you feel that way, and opinions from other editors would be useful here as well, but I'm just trying to explain that Wikipedia has these types of guidelines. Backtable Speak to meconcerning my deeds. 06:51, 8 November 2012 (UTC)

You just don't get my point. Nobody who will view this album on Wikipedia would care if one fact it's documented from 3 sources. You don't understand how obscure this album is; this page probably gets 1-5 views a day. Most people come here to look up the song names of the album. You say Nile is one of the most well known modern death metal bands. You're right, but this genre of music is very obscure. Even compared to Heavy Metal which is considered to be somewhat obscure to the mainstream is much MUCH more known than death metal and this isn't just death metal, it's technical death metal. A sub-sub-sub genre of a genre of music that isn't mainstream. Damn dude this page will get 5000 views a day and people need sources for useful information. I'm not arguing with you. You're attitude and reasoning behind it is fucking stupid. This isn't a Metallica page. Doesn't fucking matter. Don't use the bullshit excuse that 'it's against the rules' ; not every law/rule is made with you in mind. Considering how it's information that people would be an interest in, since if this a person's first extreme metal album and they hear George Kollias' drumming; they wanna know exactly what he's doing. Not like it's a 'super important' detail I'm changing on the page, like the song names and genres. It's a 'fun fact' type of deal. Where people who don't know much about extreme metal drumming can at least have a grasp of what he's doing. ' George Kollias does a constant 260-280 bpm double bass double stroke 16th notes and 260-280 blast beats 4th-16th note single stroke/ double stroke throughout nearly the entire album. That's all I would put in the edit. Not like I'm adding a paragraph of my opinion of how good Kollias is, what I'm saying can be proven if you listen to it yourself. The reason for these very limiting guidelines on posting to Wikipedia is because people add topics on pages that are subjective and opinionated. What I said about Kollias' drumming isn't opinionated; it's a fact. Therefore, logically it should be kept up because anybody can do the same research and come to the same conclusion. If I put ' Kollias' drumming on Ithyphallic, yet not as fast, is more technical than on this album', that's an opinion and if you took that down I would understand. What I said about Kollias' doing more 260/270 than 280, which a popular belief with this album is : 'Constant 280 bpm', is actually helpful to people who know nothing about extreme metal drumming. I'm sure to new people of death metal 220-280 sound the same. I can pretty much tell, almost instantly, what bpm the double bass is of any song unless it's under 180, then it's becomes difficult, but anything over 180 I can pretty much guess, unless it's in between the metronome or not even in metronome. Link me any song from any band and I can tell you in seconds how much bpm the drummer is doing; not bragging.
 * Well, that was quite a rant. First off, I never said that Nile is one of the most well-known or a mainstream death metal bands. I never said that anywhere, so don't put words in my mouth please. If I did, and I seriously don't recall ever saying that, then link the quote I made that proves this present statement of mine wrong. I also don't get the reference that this isn't a Metallica page. Second, I'm not trying to enforce my notions on you; I'm just trying to serve Wikipedia by utilizing what rules and guidelines it has. I can't and won't claim that my judgement is perfect, but I try to do what's good for Wikipedia. I know that these rules were not made with me in mind in particular (kind of goes without saying), because I did not found Wikipedia, nor was I there when it was made. While these rules address everyone who uses and edits Wikipedia, there will always be some people who will be upset about them or an aspect thereof for one reason or another.


 * If you want additional opinions on whether the drumming info should be on the article, then I can post elsewhere on Wikipedia, while being neutral in that post, in an attempt to bring attention to this discussion to others who could possibly give their useful input, yay or nay. Your explanation for how it could interest drummers and people into music theory is understandable, though.


 * Also, as testified here, the article in the last 90 days has received a minimum of 59 views and a maximum of 121 views in a day. Backtable Speak to meconcerning my deeds. 22:53, 8 November 2012 (UTC)


 * Okay, I'm willing to compromise here, as opposed to removing everything. I added a statement about George Kollias's 280 BPM drumming, in an effort to start a musical style section for the album, along with a citation needed tag. Also, while I did state that I won't consider my judgement perfect, calling my reasoning and attitude "f**king stupid", with such a vocabulary choice there and afterward, is not optimal nor productive. Backtable Speak to meconcerning my deeds. 07:42, 9 November 2012 (UTC)

Sorry to intrude, but that guy does bring up a valid point. Not many people who view this page would care if someone posted about Kollias, since there is a lot of misinfo about high speed drummers in extreme metal and people sort of just believe whatever anybody says. I've seen people talk about how this album is a constant 280 bpm and that's so wrong. I've seen people people confuse 260 and 270 with being faster than 280 simply because Kollias doesn't 'abuse' triggers he does full hard hitting strokes at 280 bpm and other drummer that do 270 bpm with 2 cms away from the bass drums and using for little motion, almost tapping of the pedals, like 'half-strokes'. I did edit the 280 bpm a little bit because simply saying 280 bpm is very vague for people that know about measuring tempo of music. — Preceding unsigned comment added by DoubleBassLover (talk • contribs) 04:34, 18 November 2012 (UTC)


 * Thanks for your contributions. However, I still have trouble with the 16.7% statistic, because until a source comes around verifiying that 16.7% of the album features 280 BPM double bass drumming, then the information is original research, which Wikipedia advises against. I did not fully revert your last addition, because I am willing to compromise in order to get a good and fair solution out of this, but that insanely specific statistic absolutely needs a credible source in order for it to stand a chance of staying on the page, if it has a chance. The part where you say that "[You]'ve seen people..." do this and that is quite vague and an uncertain statement in the regard that these people are unspecified.


 * DoubleBassLover, I have a curiosity: how come you are referring to #67 as "that guy"? You happen to be championing simiar sentiments and interests with #67, including that obscure 16.7% bit, and #67 ceased activity almost but not quite as soon as you started editing. If you are the same person as #67, referring to #67 as "that guy", as if he is another person, via a Wikipedia account in an attempt to distance yourself from the IP, quite corrodes your credibility. Now, it's not like you and #67 have not made valid points, because you have here and there, but pretending to be two different people in the same discussion does not fortify your argument because of outside opinion agreeing with you, but makes your argument significantly weaker because it's trying to pass off the illusion thereof. There's nothing wrong with editing on an IP and then creating an account on Wikipedia per se, but pretending to be another person during the transition is unproductive. If, for some random reason, you are legitimately an entirely different person from #67, though, feel free to forget I ever pointed this entire paragraph out to you. Backtable Speak to meconcerning my deeds. 08:50, 18 November 2012 (UTC)

Wow what's up with the cynicism? I'm not that other idiot who ranted about Kollias' drumming. I simply agree with a few of his statements. — Preceding unsigned comment added by DoubleBassLover (talk • contribs) 03:31, 22 November 2012 (UTC)
 * Sorry about being so harsh in that last statement of mine. I thought for certain you were the same as #67, and even if you are then it's no big deal. I technically don't have full-on proof that you are #67, so I will drop the issue immediately. Happy editing. Backtable Speak to meconcerning my deeds. 05:47, 22 November 2012 (UTC)


 * Doublebasslover, you keep saying that this page is obscure, so it doesn't matter. Well, if it's so obscure and gets so little traffic, why bother adding this information? The thing to note is that the rules about original research and verifiability don't apply to just the most popular pages. They apply to every page. You may be certain that you think you know what BPM Kollias is drumming at, but you must realise that every other person who comes onto this site cannot take your word for it. They'll read the BPM and consequently they'll say, "well, according to whom? Some editor on Wikipedia?" Do you see what I'm saying? And they'll only reach that conclusion if they happened to drift over to the talk page. Most of the time they just won't know from where the information came. If the information you posted is correct, you should be able to find a reliable source backing it up. –  Richard  BB  07:30, 27 November 2012 (UTC)

I'm not that other prick who ranted about Kollias' drumming. A lot of Kollias drumming on this album is 16th note double stroke 280 bpm double bass. I frankly don't care anymore. Seeming how you two go under every page I go under and undo my edits. I'm sure you deleted the reviews I did on Fleshgod Apocalypse for some reason. I'm not going to argue with anybody. I'm tired of these petite asinine horseshit. I'll edit whatever I want and if you undo it, then have fun. Der unaussprechliche (talk) 02:04, 29 November 2012 (UTC)


 * Okay then, knock yourself out I guess. Rules exist in order to reduce chaos, but it's up to the observer to follow or not. I'm not concerned anymore if you are #67, because that's no longer relevant. I've got nothing more to say here; let's all continue onward with our lives. Backtable Speak to meconcerning my deeds. 05:43, 29 November 2012 (UTC)


 * It's a shame you feel that way, DoubleBassLover. Our rules are very, very simple. Information must not be original research and must be cited by a reliable source. If you can find a reliable source for your BPM claims, then please put it into the article with our encouragement. As long as you don't work out the BPM yourself, we're fine. Also, regarding the Fleshgod Apocalypse albums: I, indeed, deleted one review, while User:MrMoustacheMM deleted several others. The explanations were in the edit summaries: not all of the reviews were of reliable sources. Some were blogs, others were averages of user reviews. –  Richard  BB  07:31, 29 November 2012 (UTC)

Editing References
I made 2 copies of the same reference and I can't the solution for it. -- Der unaussprechliche (talk) 15:57, 22 November 2012 (UTC)DoubleBassLover
 * Thanks for adding that section; it helps the article. I was able to fix the citations so that there was only one copy of it on this page. The way to do that is by, instead of using the template, you would use the template on the base citation, and only anywhere else. For more information, see Citing sources; the section dealing with this particular curiosity is Citing sources.  Backtable Speak to meconcerning my deeds. 00:38, 23 November 2012 (UTC)