Talk:Threatin

New article
Given the viral nature of subject, could this page be resurrected in the current context of internet phenomena? --LoofNeZorf (talk) 23:39, 12 November 2018 (UTC)
 * LoofNeZorf, it has risen, Gaia Octavia Agrippa Talk 01:38, 13 November 2018 (UTC)
 * Totally agree. This has to be kept alive now.  This is becoming legend.  The guy is now famous for all the wrong reasons and Wikipedia needs to keep track of this story.  There has to be one central place everyone can refer to to find out the facts in this.  But be ready to defend this from being edited by his mark9eting team (assuming he hasn't sacked them yet).  This could also get interesting as the MarketingTeam knew to setup all the fake cross references that a site like Wikipedia needs for "proof". [TheManFromDelMonte] 82.23.34.30 (talk) 15:52, 13 November 2018 (UTC)
 * Personally, I think this fails WP:BLP1E, since the only WP:RS coverage of Threatin is for the ill-fated tour. If there were some reviews of the music or the shows that would be fine, but there isn't (at least not yet). I get that this is probably quite a popular article this week, but Wikipedia is not a newspaper. — sparklism hey! 19:34, 13 November 2018 (UTC)
 * This isn't an article about the person (which is what WP:BLP1E is about), its one about the band. It meets WP:GNG, Gaia Octavia Agrippa Talk 19:57, 13 November 2018 (UTC)
 * ...but there isn't a band, as such - it's just one guy (plus a couple of session musicians for the tour). And there's no real, actual coverage of the 'band', except for this one tour. I think that's the very definition of 'one event'. — sparklism hey! 20:17,0 13 November 2018 (UTC)
 * It's irrelevant whether it's a band or a single musician posing as a band, as long as there is enough coverage, then the article would pass WP:GNG or WP:MUSICBIO (criteria #1 and #4). Coverage of the tour counts. Hzh (talk) 21:37, 13 November 2018 (UTC)
 * As the nominator of the afd, I do not have a problem with the recreation. The subject has now received a lot of coverage in RS, which was not the case several months ago. Also the article is not a promotional mess as it was before, and instead focuses on the fact that this guy attempted to astroturf a music career. It is not a band though (the other "members" appear to just be touring musicians), but RS seem to be describing it as a band so whatever. Hrodvarsson (talk) 01:41, 14 November 2018 (UTC)
 * Yeah, fair enough. I just wonder if this is going to fall foul of WP:SUSTAINED, but I guess at present it's too early to tell. — sparklism hey! 07:42, 14 November 2018 (UTC)

An article about yourself isn't necessarily a good thing
This might be a good example to add to the above essay. Threatin previously created fake Wikpedia articles for himself. Now he has a real one and it shall hang around his neck like an albatross. 2.24.71.147 (talk) 09:18, 15 November 2018 (UTC)

Needs to be rewritten
Since this crude ruse has been reported (ephemerally) by reputable sources, I suppose it would be very difficult to remove coverage of it from Wikipedia, but the Wikipedia article should not misrepresent it as anything but a ruse. The article's current first line, for example, is "Threatin is an American rock[4] band from Los Angeles." This is simply not true. A band by definition refers to a group of persons or things. This is just one guy. And he's not in the news because he plays rock music and made a vanity record. He's in the news because he perpetrated a fraud. This Wikipedia article needs to start with that and stay with that. TheScotch (talk) 06:34, 17 November 2018 (UTC)


 * He hired in musicians to play alongside him for the shows, so he's (the frontman of) a band, not a solo artist. To take a comparable example, Milli Vanilli's article starts off "Milli Vanilli was a German R&B duo from Munich. The group was founded by ..." and only in the second paragraph of the intro does it go on to explain that they were a fraud.  It doesn't start "Milli Vanilli was a scam perpetrated by ..."  At least with this article it is made clear that it was a scam by midway through line 2 and already clear by the end of line 1 that its notability is for something negative.2.24.71.147 (talk) 12:00, 17 November 2018 (UTC)


 * Every source on the topic refers to Threatin as a band, so we should probably stick to the sources. This isn't the only one man band to be referred to as a band, Beartooth (who only have one member, with a few touring members, just like Threatin) and Panic! at the Disco (who now only have one member) are both referred to as bands on their page. We could possibly reach a consensus to change it to "project" or something of that sort, similar to Burzum or Leviathan, or to change the page to a page just for Jered. But, to make the page simply about the incident is looked down upon, as Criticism says to "Avoid sections and articles focusing on criticisms or controversies". Issan Sumisu (talk) 12:03, 17 November 2018 (UTC)


 * Another good case in point re bands - Goldfrapp. In the studio they are Alison Goldfrapp and Will Gregory.  Live, they are Alison and some backing musicians, of whom Will has not been one since the end of 2001. 2.24.71.147 (talk) 12:13, 17 November 2018 (UTC)


 * I had been thinking the same thing myself. Too much focus on the band. The band should be a "heading". The primary focus (based on notability) should be the "scam" (if you think Beyonce didn't/doesn't do this, you are sadly mistaken). Lazypub (talk) —Preceding undated comment added 12:42, 17 November 2018 (UTC)
 * "Didn't/Doesn't do" what? 2.24.71.147 (talk) 13:41, 17 November 2018 (UTC)
 * It is common practice in the entertainment industry to do everything he did. Big stars. Little stars. Nobodies. All of them "enhance" their business.
 * In fact, it happens in most industries. Although, a bakery doesn't need a fake record label. But they do need fake reviews and paid opinions. Lazypub (talk) 19:37, 17 November 2018 (UTC)
 * But I will go a step further. I am also wondering if Threatin should even be the title of the article, as the band was a solo act by "Jered Threatin", but was all done by Jered Eames (the actual person). Lazypub (talk) —Preceding undated comment added 12:42, 17 November 2018 (UTC)
 * Most sources are on Threatin, so that should be the title. Hzh (talk) 12:46, 17 November 2018 (UTC)

Metal Sucks
It was fun to be quoted by Metal Sucks, but it isn't an established magazine like Kerrang! or Metal Hammer, it's a blog made by a couple of New York heavy metal fans. It shouldn't be used as a source, except as a source on what Metal Sucks says about Threatin. MaxBrowne2 (talk) 04:25, 24 November 2018 (UTC)


 * You'll want to take that up on a discussion at WP:RS, because it calls it a reliable source. Issan Sumisu (talk) 11:07, 24 November 2018 (UTC)


 * The discussion here did not establish reliability. Where there are BLP issues we need to err on the side of omission. If RS can be found for the deleted material, it can be restored. I like the site, I like the smartass commentaries, but it's still basically a blog. MaxBrowne2 (talk) 16:10, 24 November 2018 (UTC)


 * I don't think a "review" of its reliability from 2013 is actually gospel truth. Regardless, its research is very thorough in this particular case and is cited as a source by (among others) the New York Times. We should restore it. Gaia Octavia Agrippa Talk 17:55, 24 November 2018 (UTC)


 * Hi, you might want to contribute to the discussion at WP:RSN. []. MaxBrowne2 (talk) 18:29, 24 November 2018 (UTC)

Voice
User:MaxBrowne2 User:Insertcleverphrasehere User:MaxBrowne2 Seems prudent to be aware of WP:VOICE, to put claims by Jered Threatin in his voice not Wikipedia's. Two examples: 1. that Jered Threatin sent emails on the first day of the tour 2. that he played all the instruments on the album (if there's a different source than the BBC that has verified it rather than just repeating the claim, then we needn't put it in his voice)  Widefox ; talk 10:14, 21 December 2018 (UTC)
 * , my revert was a totally accidental click of the rollback link from my watchlist. I actually didn't realise I'd made the edit until I saw this notification. Apologies. —  Insertcleverphrasehere (or here) (click me!)    10:17, 21 December 2018 (UTC)
 * No problem, errors are 100% acceptable to me. Widefox ; talk 10:22, 21 December 2018 (UTC)
 * OK, the issue with 2. is that it has been tagged cn as seen here, and two of us have put the BBC source in which verifies it, only for it to be removed multiple times. I think I'll reinsert it now and as I said, considering the claim about emails has just been edited in as verified false, I repeat putting claims by Jered Threatin really must be put in his voice. Widefox ; talk 10:22, 21 December 2018 (UTC)
 * Has any source seriously disputed that he played all the instruments on his "Threatin" recordings? Given his egocentrism and lack of actual friends it's more likely than not that he did. He's mostly a bass player, but having played a few instruments myself I can tell you that once you've learned to play one instrument, it speeds up the process of learning to play another (kind of like languages). So for me his statement that he played all the instruments is credible. Anyway the word "claim" is specifically mentioned in the words to watch guideline as likely to introduce bias. MaxBrowne2 (talk) 10:41, 21 December 2018 (UTC)
 * It doesn't matter what you or I think, we go by sources, WP:V and WP:VOICE. The BBC source doesn't question it, so I'm happy to leave as sourced to them. The email claim that's now been updated in that BBC source to be verifiably false shows the importance of VOICE. Widefox ; talk 10:50, 21 December 2018 (UTC)
 * The question was, why introduce expressions of doubt to the statement that he played all the instruments? He's actually a competent musician, and most musicians are able to play more than one instrument. The claim is not extraordinary or unusual, and media outlets have not questioned it. MaxBrowne2 (talk) 10:57, 21 December 2018 (UTC)
 * Claims by him should be attributed to him, and as I put the source in that was my duty. It's fine as is now. WP:VOICE is policy so trumps WP:CLAIM (a MOS) should not be applied rigidly. While I'm here, I removed the "Category:Confidence tricksters" (as it's not in the WP:BLP article), but I see at least uses the term.  Widefox ; talk 12:16, 21 December 2018 (UTC)


 * The album, which exists, therefore is not a hoax, has no other musicians credited on it. This can be backed up by AllMusic which credits Jerad.
 * Of course, we (as people) cannot trust anything related to him, but we (an encyclopedia) can only go by sourced content. The album states (not claims) he was the only musician. AllMusic is considered a reliable source. If you can trust that site for Beyonce items, there is no reason you cannot trust it for Threatin items. Therefore, we can safely state that Jerad performed all the instruments. Lazypub (talk) —Preceding undated comment added 12:40, 21 December 2018 (UTC)
 * The album per se is a primary WP:SPS are largely not acceptable as sources, See also WP:USESPS. Beyonce albums are not self-published. That's the theory, in practice WP:ABOUTSELF says this claim is fine, but WP:PUBLISHED adds the requirement Additionally, an archived copy of the media must exist, which I assume we can ignore. Widefox ; talk 14:01, 21 December 2018 (UTC)
 * Sorry, but if you aren't accepting AllMusic as a reliable source, every music related item on Wikipedia needs edited. Lazypub (talk) 14:45, 21 December 2018 (UTC)
 * That's a second straw man. Widefox ; talk 18:57, 21 December 2018 (UTC)
 * It really isn't that difficult.
 * Is AllMusic a reliable source? Yes.
 * Does all music credit Threatin as performing all instruments and vocals? Yes.
 * Then "Threatin claims to" is the wrong choice of words. Lazypub (talk) 20:27, 21 December 2018 (UTC)
 * Allmusic's status as a reliable source has certainly been questioned, it's on the same level as imdb. Nevertheless implying skepticism that he played all the instruments on his recording is not NPOV, unless there is concrete evidence that he didn't. Has anyone come forward and said "hey I played drums on this track"? Not that I've seen. MaxBrowne2 (talk) 08:48, 23 December 2018 (UTC)
 * Hey, I loathe AllMusic. Me and you questioning its reliability is pointless, because Wikipedia has it on the list of Reliable Sources. And I thought it had even recently added AllMusic and IMDb to the list of displayed Authority Control items, but that seems to have disappeared. Either way, him playing all instruments is sourced. Lazypub (talk) —Preceding undated comment added 12:56, 23 December 2018 (UTC)

BBC
The BBC article doesn't actually say he backdated the e-mails. This is what is written: "Perhaps the “E. Evieknowsit” messages were backdated." Perhaps meaning they don't know either. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 145.58.172.101 (talk) 13:15, 21 December 2018 (UTC)
 * No, as discussed above, the article was updated and does - see "Update: 19 December 2018" . Widefox ; talk 14:06, 21 December 2018 (UTC)