Talk:Three-letter abbreviation

This page, "Talk:Three-letter abbreviation", should not be used for any further discussion, as the corresponding page is now a redirect.

Previous discussion can also be found at Talk:Three-letter acronym, another talk page corresponding to a redirect page.

Please add any current discussions only to:


 * Talk:TLA to discuss the current disambiguation page
 * Talk:Three letter acronym to discuss that page and related issues. PamD 12:14, 22 September 2007 (UTC)

Why should this article stand on its own?
This article is about three sentences of useful material (defining a TLA and an in-joke) and a bunch of trivia. I don't see why having a separate article is relevant.-Wafulz 13:58, 3 September 2007 (UTC)


 * Sorry, but I'm thoroughly confused as to what you are talking about. If you wish to be more explicit, I'm happy to address your points, not the least of which is "I don't see why having a separate article is relevant." I do see why this is the case and, as I said, am happy to address your specific concerns. Cheers, Pdfpdf 14:31, 3 September 2007 (UTC)

The "references in popular culture" and "trivia" sections are either trivia or random content to "fluff up" the article and give it content- the type of content here is frequently deleted because it's just an indiscriminate collection of information. The only part of the article that is actual encyclopedic material is the history of a TLA, which is about three sentences long. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Wafulz (talk • contribs) 14:39, 3 September 2007 (UTC)

(Moving Pdfpdf's content from my talk page)


 * I now understand what you mean, and have some sympathy with that opinion. (Though I wouldn't want to delete those sections - I think WP needs to have some component of entertainment when informing.)


 * My suggestions/opinions:
 * None of the content of any of these pages should be discarded.
 * WP does not need three separate (and different) pages for TLA, Three-letter acronym and Three-letter abbreviation. The content of these three pages should be merged into one of the pages (possibly into TLA?) and the other two pages should redirect to that merged page.
 * I agree with you that the case for these three pages being separate from "Acronym and initialism" is not strong. However, they do address a situation that does have a life of its own, so perhaps the so-called "merged page" (mentioned in previous bullet) should be further merged into a new section added into the "Acronym and initialism" page? If so, the pages for TLA, Three-letter acronym and Three-letter abbreviation should all redirect to this new section in the Acronym and initialism page. (e.g. Acronym and initialism#TLA)

I agree with your last point - given the amount of reliable sources, we only have one paragraph of meaningful content, which is a reasonably humorous story about the origin of "TLA". It could arguably belong on Wiktionary. Beyond the history of the term, we have a bunch of loosely related facts. The trivia section needs to go- the material within it is literally the definition of trivial: we have a basic combinatorics problem, three quotes, and a pedantic detail. The "in popular culture" section just lists songs that are made up of TLAs or make fun of TLAs- I mean, this is neat and all, but it's about as useful as listing songs that are made up of years, curse words, or iambic pentameter.-Wafulz 02:24, 10 September 2007 (UTC)


 * Yes. Again, I have some sympathy with your opinion. Accordingly, I support the changes you have recently made. Cheers, Pdfpdf 08:25, 11 September 2007 (UTC)

What points where?
i.e. What's the current situation?
 * Revision History (for anyone who cares ... )
 * Pdfpdf 08:25, 11 September 2007 (UTC)
 * Pdfpdf 01:08, 18 September 2007 (UTC)


 * TLA - redirects to Three-letter abbreviation
 * Talk:TLA - redirects to Talk:Three-letter abbreviation (i.e. Here)
 * tla - redirects to Three-letter abbreviation
 * Talk:tla is a red link
 * TLA (disambiguation)
 * Talk:TLA (disambiguation) is a red link
 * WP:TLA - redirects to Disambiguation and abbreviations
 * Talk:WP:TLA is a red link
 * Three letter abbreviation - redirects to Three-letter abbreviation
 * Talk:Three letter abbreviation is a red link
 * Three letter acronym - redirects to Three-letter abbreviation
 * Talk:Three letter acronym is a red link
 * Three-letter abbreviation - THE MAIN PAGE (At the moment)
 * Talk:Three-letter abbreviation - Here (i.e. This page you're reading now)
 * Three-letter acronym - redirects to Three-letter abbreviation
 * Talk:Three-letter acronym contains lengthy discussions
 * Three Letter Abbreviation - redirects to Three-letter abbreviation
 * Talk:Three Letter Abbreviation is a red link
 * Three Letter Acronym - redirects to Three-letter abbreviation
 * Talk:Three Letter Acronym is a red link
 * Three Letter Abbreviation - redirects to Three-letter abbreviation
 * Talk:Three Letter Abbreviation is a red link
 * Three Letter Acronym - redirects to Three-letter abbreviation
 * Talk:Three Letter Acronym is a red link
 * Talk:Three Letter Acronym is a red link


 * Acronym and initialism
 * Talk:Acronym and initialism contains lengthy discussions
 * Acronym - redirects to Acronym and initialism
 * Talk:Acronym contains very lengthy discussions
 * Initialism - redirects to Acronym and initialism
 * Talk:Initialism contains some brief discussion
 * Disambiguation and abbreviations
 * Wikipedia talk:Disambiguation and abbreviations contains lengthy discussions
 * Disambiguation and abbreviations
 * Wikipedia talk:Disambiguation and abbreviations contains lengthy discussions

Where do we go from here?

 * My suggestions/opinions:
 * Leave the current "new" situation as it now is, with the following exception:
 * Talk:TLA - redirect to Talk:Three-letter abbreviation


 * Your feedback (etc.), if any, please? Cheers, Pdfpdf 08:25, 11 September 2007 (UTC)

I've just "been BOLD", and changed a couple of redirects so that "Three Letter Acronym" and "Three Letter Abbreviation" both point to Three-letter abbreviation rather than to Acronym and initialism. I'd be happier if the article was moved to "Three Letter Acronym" (even though it's inaccurate for many of them!), as I think this is the most common usage, preferably without hyphen (the first few pages of Google hits seem 50-50 about the hyphen!). But I do think that all 5 variants (Three(-)L/letter A/acronym or TLA (no, not 5, probably 7) should point to the one page. Hope I haven't trodden on any toes by doing what seemed sensible before reading any talk pages!  PamD 15:52, 17 September 2007 (UTC)


 * Hi PamD! This just seems to get bigger, doesn't it! (I hadn't thought of looking for "Three letter" or "Three Letter" pages!) You haven't trodden on my toes. I like what you've done and sort-of-agree with what you're proposing. I have updated the table above to reflect the current (i.e. "right-this-second") situation.


 * My personal preference would be to have "TLA" as the main page, and everything else pointing to it. (But I expect that the MoS purists won't like that idea.) Pdfpdf 00:33, 18 September 2007 (UTC)
 * My second choice would be "Three Letter A****" (i.e. Capitals and no hyphen.) Pdfpdf 01:17, 18 September 2007 (UTC)

Looking at TLA (disambiguation), I think I'd favour moving that to TLA instead - look at Google for "TLA", and our beloved acronyms aren't that prominent except for the WP article itself! Then let's go for Three Letter Acronym, with redirects from everywhere. (You specify caps and no hyphens, but which way do you go on the cronym/bbreviation decision?). Oh and my statement that there were 7 or so variations is an undercounting as I'd forgotten bbreviation. Make it about 13 versions! PamD 06:50, 18 September 2007 (UTC)


 * I'm having trouble finding justifications for my opinions, so I'll just say up front, "this is what I'd like". (Reminds me of the old bumper sticker: "Be reasonable - do it my way." ... )
 * One of the main points of using TLA for "Three Letter Acronym" is that TLA is a TLA. (I probably am a geek, but I know I'm not the only person in the world who finds that amusing.) Therefore, I would strongly resist TLA disambiguation replacing TLA; (I believe) TLA "should" be saved for the unique purpose of describing TLA.
 * Personally, I don't really mind what we use as "the main page", just so long as we have ONE main page, and ALL the other pages point to it.
 * We have to use a bit of care in which one we choose, because if "someone" decides we've chosen the "wrong" one, (for whatever reason, and I'm sure there will be dozens of reasons that I can't even vaguely imagine right now), we'll be up for endless debate. I'll ask my "Manual-of-Style" expert (Jogers (talk)) for his opinion, and get him to post his reply here.
 * Pdfpdf 09:21, 18 September 2007 (UTC)


 * (By-the-way: If we want to consider all variations of (T/t)hree( /-)(L/l)etter (A/a)(cronym/bbreviation), then we have 2^5 = 32 variations!!! An advantage with "TLA" is that there's just the one option! Pdfpdf 10:36, 18 September 2007 (UTC))


 * I'm not really an expert but thanks for your confidence in me :-) The relevant policies and guidelines are Naming conventions and Naming conventions (abbreviations). Please note that names of Wikipedia articles should be optimized for readers over editors and for a general audience over specialists and that spelled-out phrases are preferable to abbreviations. Of course, the most common name is to be used so if the term is almost exclusively known only by its acronym it should be the article title. Hope that helps. Jogers (talk) 10:43, 18 September 2007 (UTC)

Various comments:
 * 1: Google suggests that "Three letter acronym" is twice as common as "Three letter abbreviation" (166k:74k), so let's go for it.
 * 2: I'd prefer to see TLA as the dab page, pointing prominently (as at present) to the page "Three letter acronym" or whatever. Looking at Google for TLA, it's a much-used trio of letters in the big wide non-geek world out there.  Almost becomes a NPOV issue?
 * 3: I don't feel strongly about hypens or capitals, as long as we redirect from all other reasonable variants.
 * 4: On the number of variants ... I had an odd number because I added in "TLA" itself, and I didn't go for the full power of 2 because there are some unlikely things like "three-Letter..." etc! Let's just call it "many"... and make sure we redirect as above!

PamD 08:47, 19 September 2007 (UTC)
 * and 5: Googling for "Three letter acronym" with TLA, and ditto for abbreviation, produces a striking difference: 45,800 to 525. So Acronym really appears to be the most used interpretation of TLA.  Cheers, PamD 08:53, 19 September 2007 (UTC)

Just came back while hanging on to a non-answering phonecall... let's do it properly, there's a reason for these systems, and it means that the talk files stay connected so people can trace thehistory! PamD 10:24, 19 September 2007 (UTC)

Shift the "main" page from "Three-letter abbreviation" to "Three letter acronym"
So let's see if I've got this right: Yes? No?
 * Move "main" page from "Three-letter abbreviation" to "Three letter acronym".
 * Proof-read the new "Three letter acronym" to make sure it reflects the "new reality".
 * Change everything (except TLA, tla and Three letter acronym) to have them redirect to "Three letter acronym".
 * Add something to Talk:Three letter acronym saying something about how/why things have evolved to the current state of affairs.
 * Move the contents of TLA (disambiguation) into TLA, and then change tla and TLA (disambiguation) to redirect to TLA. Change Talk:TLA as appropriate.

If yes, then is there any reason not to go ahead and do it? (I believe there exists some sort of "notification" process, but I'm not familiar with it. Are you?)

If no, please enlighten me.

(I'm really disappointed I can't convince you to make TLA the main page, but don't worry, I'm a big boy, I can live with the disappointment. ;-) ) Pdfpdf 09:30, 19 September 2007 (UTC)


 * When you say "Copy the contents" I hope you mean "Use Move" - that way the history of the page remains accessible, and all this discussion too. Actually, that said, I'll do it now.  (I have 99 jobs I ought to be doing this morning, but...). PamD 09:42, 19 September 2007 (UTC)

Well, I didn't, but you've convinced me that using "Move" is a better solution, so I've changed the bullets above accordingly. And thanks for doing it. Pdfpdf 09:53, 19 September 2007 (UTC)


 * It turns out to be non-trivial, because there is edit history on the redirect page. We need to do it using the "controversial moves" procedure at http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Requested_moves#Requesting_potentially_controversial_moves and I really ought to be doing other things now so haven't time - I leave it to you, or will have a go later perhaps!  Cheers PamD 09:58, 19 September 2007 (UTC)

OK. I thought that might happen. I'll go back to my original plan - it's nowhere near as much fun as using "move", but it will do the job. With luck, when you come back, it will be a "fait accompli". Cheers, Pdfpdf 10:10, 19 September 2007 (UTC)