Talk:Through the Fire and Flames

through the wire
was the name of this song changed for the video? i noticed that in the caption on the video it said 'dragonforce through the wire' and i dont tihnk it mentioned the actuall name it might be worth putting a redirect from 'through the wire' if that is the case


 * Where did you see this? If it was on TV, or a video on the 'net that was nicked from TV, maybe it was just a spelling error. The official videos at Roadrunner Records have no caption. --Dayn 05:50, 18 December 2006 (UTC)

It was on MTV, go figure. It can be seen at youtube.com. --E tac 07:00, 15 January 2007 (UTC)

Yup, just a typo. It's on many videos that have circulated the internet, but it is merely a mistake made by MTV. --Dark dude 01:37, 3 June 2007 (UTC)

Germany's favorite song
I removed "*Was voted best song in the nation world cup in Germany. " from the trivia section because it was uncited, had bad grammar, and was just plain outrageous. Ball of pain 20:29, 1 August 2007 (UTC)

beer/water
i think he was drinking water instead of beer i'll change it —Preceding unsigned comment added by 75.80.244.3 (talk) 06:46, 27 September 2007 (UTC)

LMAO i highly doubt that..

By it's encore?
I heard this was a bonus track not a career mode song. I doubt they would make a song which they think is impossible a req for beating the game. --96.233.54.238 01:24, 22 October 2007 (UTC)
 * SPOILER ALERT! You unlock the song by beating the game, then you're supposed to play it while the credits roll. I guess it's technically part of career mode, but obviously not a requirement since you have to have already beat the game to unlock it. END SPOILER Cgy flames 00:13, 6 November 2007 (UTC)
 * It is a bonus song. Technically on the bonus list. You CAN play it during the credits as well but it's pretty much intended to be played in Career/QP on the bonus list. 98.217.245.137 (talk) 19:14, 3 March 2009 (UTC)

GHIII
Alot of what it says under GH3 looks to be a matter of opinion only. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 76.11.5.219 (talk) 19:15, 25 October 2007 (UTC)

I made a quick edit, as before it basically stated opinion as fact. 24.209.248.70 (talk) 21:07, 28 November 2007 (UTC)

There should be a mention of the high scorers for this song on Guitar Hero, cited from maybe Youtube or any site willing to compile the data. They have it for other articles involving games. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 69.117.59.17 (talk) 05:07, 3 December 2007 (UTC)

I'm sorry, but you can't say it's widely considered to be the hardest song in guitar hero. There's no real way to determine that. Jordan could be harder for someone. Also, even with the bad hammer-ons of GH 1, Bark at the Moon is NOWHERE near Jordan/Through the Fire and Flames in terms of difficulty. I can beat Bark at the Moon on expert. I can get through like 2% of the other two. Please change "widely considered" to "one of the hardest". Just my take. And if you were trying to pick one hard song from each game, Cowboys from Hell is MUCH harder than Bark at the Moon. Bark at the Moon is only hard in 2 places. Take it off, it's not good enough to be considered "elite".FreebirdTuesdaysGone (talk) 10:21, 20 January 2008 (UTC)

This isn't the hardest song in the series, the devil went down to georgia is almost unanimously considered harder to both complete and fc, and many (myself included) also find jordan from gh2 harder to complete (though it is considered easier to fc)Toby.e.hawkins (talk) 06:40, 7 June 2009 (UTC)


 * Published sources, including several reviews of the game and a Guiness World Records publication, have stated that this song is the most difficult in the Guitar Hero franchise. If there are published sources that disagree with this, feel free to show them so the article can be modified accordingly. -- saberwyn 08:29, 7 June 2009 (UTC)


 * I'm sure not one of those reviewers or the Guiness World Records author who wrote up this song as being the hardest are able to complete it, I am able to complete every song in the guitar hero series and know from this that ttfaf isn't the hardest (though is one of the hardest). Correspondance with other players of similar and greater skill would confirm this though I doubt forum posts, youtube comments and videos are up to wikipedias standards for references. Scorehero does however show that this song has been fc'ed by 6 people, whereas tdwdtg has only ever been fc'ed by 1 (http://www.scorehero.com/top_scores.php?group=4&game=0&diff=4). From the difficulty of these achievements and the status of scorehero in the competitive gh community I thiink it unlikley anyone would have fc'ed either of these songs and not posted their score to the site. -- Toby.e.hawkins (talk) 08:33, 1 July 2009 (UTC)
 * Unfortunately, forum posts and the like are not reliable sources. If you can find reliable, published sources (see Reliable Sources) that support your view, it can be incorporated in. -- saberwyn 23:44, 24 July 2009 (UTC)

GH 3 matter
It says it's widely considered the hardest song in the GH series, but the game came out today. I don't think opinion spreads that rapidly. Magicallydajesus 07:28, 29 October 2007 (UTC)
 * It can when I saw a video on YouTube of the song being completed on expert two days before the game's release. Luigi &quot;Kurai&quot; III 20:07, 29 October 2007 (UTC)
 * The Note count in this song is infact 3777. I attempted to play this thing on practice, and accomplished 2077 of them. Changed.Konraden88 17:50, 3 November 2007 (UTC)
 * Actually, the note count appears to have a very odd property; I was doing some tests: my first practice run-through gave me 3722; second: 3726; third: 3725. It's very strange... Dagron12345 02:53, 4 November 2007 (UTC)
 * 3722 is the correct note count. 98.217.245.137 (talk) 19:19, 3 March 2009 (UTC)

Drinking beer during solo?
"Totham can be seen drinking beer during the solo". Where is he seen drinking beer? In the audio recording? Is this describing the video or live performance or what? Someone who knows more about the band should qualify this statement. Cgy flames 01:51, 11 November 2007 (UTC)
 * He truly is drinking something during the solo, but I don't believe it is possible to say that's beer.Victao lopes (talk) 16:02, 22 November 2007 (UTC)


 * OK people the bottle is a green stubby, which would denote a Heinekin bottle, if you flip to the middle of your inhuman rampage CD booklet, you will see that in almost every picture with sam in it, he's holding a Heinekin. He's also known to be a heavy drinker and is usually drunk or close to it while he's playing, infact on the DF official website in the bio of him, one of his stage tricks is actually listed as "hands free beer drinking". So tell me, why then would he be drinking water out of a green glass stubby bottle? seriously... i dont even think the guy drinks water.

Imperialconqueror (talk) 21:33, 10 December 2007 (UTC)

Could it be that the bottle is something like V? I always thought it was... --06:34, 12 June 2008 (UTC)Sigmarz (talk)

The "Free" download
I think we should replace the download link. First I do not believe it is Cross-Operating system. And Second it isn't free it costs money to get a membership to get a permanent download.Aquzenn (talk) 18:18, 7 December 2007 (UTC)

Fair use rationale for Image:DFIR.jpg
Image:DFIR.jpg is being used on this article. I notice the image page specifies that the image is being used under fair use but there is no explanation or rationale as to why its use in this Wikipedia article constitutes fair use. In addition to the boilerplate fair use template, you must also write out on the image description page a specific explanation or rationale for why using this image in each article is consistent with fair use.

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BetacommandBot (talk) 05:21, 2 January 2008 (UTC)

Energy Drink!?!?
That just made me laugh. Either put water or beer. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Screen317 (talk • contribs) 19:48, 21 January 2008 (UTC)

"broken" whammy bar
if one was to watch this video http://youtube.com/watch?v=TzZhSstHRqo&feature=related you can see that herman himself is using an extra whammy bar to produce the sound effect so since i am too lazy to edit this article, someone else should. Pidgeonman (talk) 19:07, 22 January 2008 (UTC)
 * Do you have a source other than your opinion from watching the video clip?? -- saberwyn 23:16, 22 January 2008 (UTC)

The official DragonForce YouTube's copy of the video has as its description that it's his whammy bar flying through the air. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 203.79.95.234 (talk) 07:49, 25 February 2008 (UTC)


 * I don't know if I'm looking at the same video page you are (I've followed the link above), but I can't find mention of anything regarding what happened, except in the comments, which are personal opinions posted by random people who've watched the video. If someone could provide an interview or professional review where the incident is mentioned and described, that would be exactly what is needed to source this and settle it once and for all. -- saberwyn 09:52, 25 February 2008 (UTC)

An interview would definitely put it to rest as to what happened. People just putting in their 2 cents will do little for the actual event. --DavidD4scnrt (talk) 06:26, 8 April 2008 (UTC)

the official dragon force video actually does state that herman's whammy bar flew through the air as a result of herman doin the pacman-type noise right before the guitar solo.. you guys are blind and need to open up your eyes next time you watch the video.. you can see a shiny object flying before the solo and that is his whammy bar.,. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Sparks420 (talk • contribs) 21:51, 13 November 2009 (UTC)

Removal of other songs
I've removed the list of other songs that may, possibly, be, in the personal opinion of a single editor, on a similar level of difficulty to this song because there is no sourcing, and its all original research and personal opinion anyway, and adds unnecesary weight to the article which is supposed to be about the song, not the video game.

Now, if someone could dredge up some published gaming reviews that allow us to say that "According to [insert gaming magazine/website here], the difficulty of Through the Fire and Flames is on par with [song 1] and [song 2]...", there would be no problems. Until that time, having it in the article is going to be a siern call to every Average Joe who plays the game and thinks "Fire and Flames was easy, but I hate Raining Blood by Slayer, so that must be the most difficult song in the game" to add it to the article and bloat it with material irrelevant to the song. -- saberwyn 23:49, 22 January 2008 (UTC)

Temporary Lock?
This page has been getting edited daily for over a month now and nearly half of them has been due to or removal of vandalism. I am calling for a lock on this page against new members, at least for a few months when they hype from the band and the game calms down. --LuvataciousSkull (talk) 14:55, 9 February 2008 (UTC)

Sped up?
My friend thinks this was sped up because of the drum beat and the pure insanity of the guitar, but i don't think so. Does anyone know? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 205.200.149.11 (talk) 20:33, 6 April 2008 (UTC) --Sigmarz (talk) 06:36, 12 June 2008 (UTC)
 * I don't know, but I've seen some equally insane guitar from other artists live, so I would not be suprised if its not sped up. -- saberwyn 09:21, 7 April 2008 (UTC)
 * If you look at the cover on Youtube, some dude plays it and also their live performance videos add to the argument that it is NOT sped up.

A lot of people are just making stuff up as an excuse to criticize DragonForce, plain and simple

The song it wasn't speed up in studio, just synthetised passed thorugh another similar procedures common to all bands. Haxxiy (talk) 21:01, 17 June 2008 (UTC)

Watch the YouTube video. Their hair and even the bubbles while Sam is drinking move faster than is natural.72.50.168.194 (talk) 12:36, 8 September 2008 (UTC)

Seen it performed live. Definitely playable in realtime. - DustFormsWords (talk) 00:03, 20 October 2009 (UTC)

The Drinking Issue
Found a news article that appears to specifically mention what Totman was drinking, but it needs someone with access to the Highbeam subscription service. -- saberwyn 09:21, 7 April 2008 (UTC)

Through ---Fire and Flames
Sounds perfect, it should not be called "Through THE fire and flames" Its mostly pronounced without the "the", even in GH3.  R k O R  T o  N  23:55, 7 April 2008 (UTC)
 * This is the title according to the CD and all of the professional reviews of both the song and the game I've seen so far. Therefore, that is the correct title for the song, and therefore the article. "Through Fire and Flames" redirects here anyway, so nobody's going to get lost looking for it. -- saberwyn 00:33, 8 April 2008 (UTC)

FC by iamchris4life
Everyone agrees this was an amazing accomplishment, but as I explained here regarding Jordan, this article should be about the song, not what happens in the Guitar Hero community. --Ouzo (talk) 13:40, 4 June 2008 (UTC)
 * I would personally be happy to include it IF we can find WP:reliable, published, third-party sources (something like a magazine, a newspaper, or a book) that can be used to WP:Verify the claims that (1) This song is impossible to complete, and (2) This particular person was the first to complete the song to this standard. Until reliable sources can be found, this should not be in the article. -- saberwyn 21:28, 4 June 2008 (UTC)

Image:TTFAF.jpg listed for deletion
An image or media file that you uploaded or altered, Image:TTFAF.jpg, has been listed at Images and media for deletion. Please see the to see why this is (you may have to search for the title of the image to find its entry), if you are interested in it not being deleted. -- saberwyn 05:04, 9 August 2008 (UTC)

The image was removed from the article in this edit, with the remover stating "That logo was bloody ridiculous. It had nothing to do with the band, nor did it have a source relating to the band. Plus, it was mislabeled too." -- saberwyn 05:04, 9 August 2008 (UTC)
 * Entirely agree. --Ouzo (talk) 17:58, 9 August 2008 (UTC)

first video?
This article says that this song was used in the first video made by Dragonforce. Thats not true. The first video was made before the band even released their debut album. The song was Valley of the Damned and I think it was the demo version. --Arm (talk) 10:06, 14 December 2008 (UTC)

GH3 Detail section removed
''The difficulty is due to the complex hammer-ons and pull-offs, and the extremely fast, intricate solos, including one that lasts for two minutes and four seconds. The song contains the second-fastest stream of notes in the entire series, with two sections of the song reaching an average speed of 26.67 notes per second; these sections are second only to a very small ascending stream of notes in Santana's "Black Magic Woman", which reaches 28.6 NPS. The player must also play samples of keyboard and computerized noises comprising the 3,722 notes in the song.''

Most of this material is comprised of unreferenced sources, original research, weasel words, with the only reference being a Scorehero thread which has been locked and moved to the site's wiki. Besides all that, no one except those who play the game would care about the NPS or the fact there are 3722 notes in the song. Anyone disagree? --Ouzo (talk) 16:44, 18 December 2008 (UTC)
 * If someone can find reliable sources for this content, then it can be re-added. -- saberwyn 21:15, 18 December 2008 (UTC)
 * It's true that no one may care, but there's a reliable source. It's called using a calculator. You can go into the note chart and do (BPM / 60) * NPB and that will give you the NPS of the section. So anyone can go check the math provided they have a note chart. 98.217.245.137 (talk) 19:25, 3 March 2009 (UTC)
 * I don't want to sound like an ass so forgive me if this comes off the wrong way but I believe we refer to that as original research which is not counted as a verifiable source. It's a wonky rule, I know. For a second opinion, I'd like to remind you all that some of us suffer from extreme DGAFism, IAR, and have a bold complex. ⒺⓋⒾ ⓁⒼⓄ ⒽⒶⓃ ②  talk 05:30, 10 August 2009 (UTC)

Removal of song's key info
I've removed the paragraph-sentance on what key or keys the song is performed in because, despite being the subject of continuous editing as to what the key(s) is/are, this has been tagged as unsourced since September 2008, and has likely been in the article unsourced since before that. I'd be happy to see it integrated back into the article, but on the condition, that a reliable, published source can be provided that confirms the information. -- saberwyn 08:20, 28 January 2009 (UTC)

Brutal Legend inclusion?
I'm not too sure about the inclusion of Brutal Legend in this article. I will admit firstup that I've not played the game, but the impression I get is that the song is merely part of the soundtrack. This is unlike the other games listed, (in the Guitar Hero and Konami games, the song must be 'played', and in Audiosurf, the song affects how the game is played).

Any thoughts? -- saberwyn 22:40, 19 October 2009 (UTC)


 * As per my contributions, Brutal Legend is the most complete (and well funded) attempt to build an "ultimate metal soundtrack" in videogames. The game features 100+ songs, entirely from well known metal names (Judas Priest, Ozzy Osbourne, Motorhead, etc) but only a select few are chosen as unskippable soundtracks for specific scenes, the rest being optional or "background music".  Through the Fire and Flames is the background to the scene that effectively closes the first half of the game; it's one of the most memorably highlighted tracks in the game.  The game itself has considerable credibility as an extended tribute to metal, featuring Jack Black in the lead role and Ozzy Osbourne, Lemmy Kilmister and Lita Ford in other major roles, and comes from Tim Schafer whose previous work Full Throttle is really the only treatment of "metal" in videogames prior to this that immediately comes to mind.  In short, definitely deserves coverage in this article. - DustFormsWords (talk) 00:00, 20 October 2009 (UTC)

Those who aced the song?
Should there be a section on the few (like 3) people who have managed to complete the song with 100% on expert? That's probably the most notable aspect about the song, actually; and the attention the song gained was due to attempts at achieving the perfect score. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Obamamaniac (talk • contribs) 03:53, 29 December 2009 (UTC)

Appearance in videogames
Despite my comments above, clearly the majority of the videogame appearances are not individually notable, even where the game is notable. It seems to me like a better way of presenting this information would be a single paragraph saying, "The song has appeared in the following videogames (list)." I propose to make this change tomorrow unless anyone has a policy supported objection. - DustFormsWords (talk) 04:03, 9 December 2010 (UTC)
 * I'm going ahead with this change. - DustFormsWords (talk) 00:44, 13 December 2010 (UTC)