Talk:Thubten Choekyi Nyima, 9th Panchen Lama

Wacky Last Paragraph
Someone has edited a wacky last paragraph written in the first person, ranting about how the 9th Panchen Lama is really the sixth or seventh, etc. This needs to be edited or removed by someone with more knowledge of the issue being ranted about than me.

Jimindc (talk) 20:17, 21 April 2017 (UTC)

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BetacommandBot (talk) 08:47, 15 January 2008 (UTC)

move?
Since the article is now under 14th Dalai Lama, this should be in sync and be moved to "9th Panchen Lama". Any opinions? Same would apply to Karmapa, etc. Gryffindor (talk) 16:34, 30 January 2009 (UTC)


 * Sorry, Gryffindor, I don't understand what you mean. What article is now under 14th Dalai Lama? Are you suggesting the heading for this article be simply "9th Panchen Lama"? If so, I agree, and a link can be made to his name, Thubten Choekyi Nyima. John Hill (talk) 00:40, 31 January 2009 (UTC)
 * The article Tenzin Gyatso, 14th Dalai Lama was moved to 14th Dalai Lama. Although I personally find that a bit strange, I guess I can accept it. Consequently all other dalais were moved as well to that format. So I am wondering shouldn't we move other lamas as well in order to be consistent? Gryffindor (talk) 14:58, 31 January 2009 (UTC)


 * I would agree that it makes sense to list all the Dalai, Panchen and Karmapa lamas under their numbers rather than their names for three reasons. 1. I don't think many of the personal names are well-known to most English-speakers and, therefore, it makes more sense to list them under their titles. 2. They are considered to be reincarnations of their predecessors and, therefore, their position in this chain of connected beings is of importance in identifying them and, 3. Their exalted positions within the Tibetan Buddhist community would seem to be of more importance than their personal names.


 * The only hesitation I have is that there have been arguments about the numbering systems used at various times - but, I think if we stick with the numbering systems used in the Wikipedia we should be all right. I will wait to see if there are any further thoughts on the subject, or if anyone has objections. I am happy to move the articles if there is no disagreement but would prefer it if someone with more time took on this task. BTW, I think it will be critically important if this is done to check that there are good redirects to the articles in case anybody enters one of the lama's names in the Search box. Cheers, John Hill (talk) 23:12, 31 January 2009 (UTC)
 * Agreed. Gryffindor (talk) 13:38, 1 February 2009 (UTC)


 * I suggested this on Talk:Panchen Lama and Talk:Karmapa, but there were no responses.&mdash;Nat Krause(Talk!·What have I done?) 19:49, 1 February 2009 (UTC)

account of panchen lama from book
from "whoos who in china" PANCHEN LAMA, better known in Tibet as Tashi Lama, former secular ruler of Tibet ; born in Inner Tibet, 1883 ; came to Shigatse in 1822 ; accom- panied the Crown Prince of England to India, 1903 ; returned to Tibet in 1904 and introduced reforms in education and other administrative measures ; in the first year of the reign of Emperor Hsuan Tung, following the dispatch of Szechuen troops into Tibet by the Manchu Government which aroused misunderstandings among the Tibetans and resulted in complications in Tibet, he was appointed by the Manchu Government both secular and religious ruler of Inner and Outer Tibet ; although he did go to Lhassa, however, he declined the appointment and promised only to maintain order and peace in Inner Tibet; in spite of his refusal to accept the appointment, misunderstandings arose between him and the Dalai Lama, who had hitherto been the ruler of Outer Tibet and the two became intolerant of each other; after the 1911 Revolution, as a result of the mutiny of the Szechuen troops in Tibet and internal disturbances, the Tibetan situation became further confused; in 1924, at the request of the Tibetan people, he came to China to plead for peace and visited many pro- vinces in the interior ; owing to the disturbed situation in China and her neglect of border affairs, he remained in Manchuria and Mongolia for many years ; he is the most pronounced pro-Chinese leader in Tibet and has rendered great assistance to the Chinese residing there ; following the establishment of the National government at Nanking he was invited to visit the Capital and has been much honored by the government leaders ; he now holds the following posts : member of the Chinghai Provincial Government, since 1929; Cultural Commissioner forthe Western Border, since 1934; State Councillor of the National Government since 1934; also a member of the Mongolian and Tibetan Affairs Com- mission; following the death of the Dalai Lama in 1933, he was invited to return to Tibet and is now in Chinghai on his way back to Lhassa ; address : c/o Mongolian and Tibetan Affairs Commission, Nanking.

06:28, 6 June 2011 (UTC)

1934
The panchen lama tried to regain his power after the death of the 14th dalai lama

http://news.google.com/newspapers?id=StNXAAAAIBAJ&sjid=-fQDAAAAIBAJ&pg=5111,2019714&hl=en

http://news.google.com/newspapers?id=L3pYAAAAIBAJ&sjid=D0MNAAAAIBAJ&pg=2838,652821&hl=en

http://news.google.com/newspapers?id=5uc0AAAAIBAJ&sjid=5rUDAAAAIBAJ&pg=7090,6445927&hl=en

http://news.google.com/newspapers?id=5uc0AAAAIBAJ&sjid=5rUDAAAAIBAJ&pg=7090,6445927&hl=en

http://select.nytimes.com/gst/abstract.html?res=FB0D15FD3559177A93C2A8178AD85F408385F9

Rajmaan (talk) 19:21, 19 December 2012 (UTC)

Deleted content pasted in for discussion here, not in article.
I have deleted the text and inline citations below from the article, which an inexperienced but well-meaning new editor has added. Hopefully, all discussions on this subject will be conducted with this Talk page, and not left as comments in the article itself.

START OF DELETED TEXT

I'm sorry but this is NOT the 9th Panchen Lama, it is in fact the 6th Panchen Lama according to Gelek Surkhang Wangchen, Tsepon W. D. Shakabpa etc. I quote from Hugh Richardson "It is the habit of Chinese writers to describe the late Panchen Lama as the IXth. To the mass of Tibetans it is beyond question that he was the VIth in succession from Lobzang Chokyi Gyaltsen, the teacher whom the Vth Dalai Lama created Ist Panchen Lama." Again, the very first line in the Historical Introduction of "The secret report of the 10th Panchen Lama" Professor Dawa Norbhu writes "The 10th Panchen Lama (actually the 7th of his line)". A previous editor has quoted Bell, I quote from page 35 "The young fifth Dalai Lama made his old teacher, named 'The banner of Religion's Victory,' who was abbot first at Ta-shi Lhun-po..." Even the great hagiographer Jagou says as much, "Thus the incarnation the Tibetans refer to as the Sixth Panchen Lama is known as the ninth Panchen Lama by the Chinese."

During the 17th Point Agreement the Chinese called Nyima the 9th and when western visitors were permitted to visit Tibet in the 1980s they took the Chinese numbering back to the west where some scholars started to use this numbering, before this it was only used by TashiLhunpo & Peking.

The editor is at present researching this further If another editor has a problem with the FACTS can they please contact me, while I am new to Wikpedia I have devoted fifty years to the study of Tibet, (specialising in the first half of the 20th Century).

END OF DELETED TEXT

I will also leave a note on the new editor's talk page, but will not be able to contribute further to this discussion. Nick Moyes (talk) 13:06, 27 April 2017 (UTC)


 * Actually, the problem here appears to be that there is a grave discrepancy between the account given by Breakingchina and that given in the article "List of Panchen Lamas" (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Panchen_Lamas) where the first here is the fourth accordg to him and his sources, and so forth. Neither article addresses the discrepancy. "Breakingchina" has opened the discussion with the above comment that's been correctly moved here from the article. Would anyone else care to comment? Personally I don't have the time to research this but I do know the 5th Dalai Lama recognised Lobsang Chokyi Gyaltsen as a reincarnatio, making him the First, and then some other Gelugpa, not sure who, decided that so-and-so-and-so were his three predecessors, making him the fourth. In fact, he is listed in another article here as the fourth: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lobsang_Ch%C3%B6kyi_Gyaltsen,_4th_Panchen_Lama. The first is here: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Khedrup_Gelek_Pelzang,_1st_Panchen_Lama. There is clearly a disagreement and discrepancy, and I don't know why some people deny the validity of the first 3 of the 9. Personally I find it quite confusing. It may be a Chinese thing to add the extra three. If I see anything I'll advise. MacPraughan (talk) 18:26, 27 April 2017 (UTC)


 * OK now iseen the clarification on the Himalayan Art website (http://www.himalayanart.org/search/set.cfm?setID=72): (quote) "There are two systems commonly employed for numbering the Panchen Lamas. The first and earliest system used by the Ganden Podrang and Lhasa administration begins with Panchen Chokyi Gyaltsen (1570-1662), teacher of the 5th Dalai Lama as the 1st Panchen Lama. The second system which arose later likely in the late 18th and 19th centuries with the Panchen Labrang of Tashi Lhunpo begins with Kedrub Geleg Pal Zangpo (1385-1438) as the 1st Panchen Lama. Kedrub was a direct student of Tsongkapa. The followers of the Panchen Lama, Tashi Lhunpo Monastery and the Chinese Government follow the Panchen Labrang manner of counting. The Ganden Podrang and many if not all Western scholars have used the earlier system beginning with Chokyi Gyaltsen as the 1st Panchen. It is now common to find in publications and literature both numbers side by side to remove any confusion as to the correct Panchen that might be referenced. There is certainly a degree of politics as to how and why the two competing systems have developed and who adheres to which system." MacPraughan (talk) 18:26, 27 April 2017 (UTC)

Argumentative passage moved here
To call Choekyi Nyima the 9th Panchen Lama is a misnomer, while in exile in China he signed pictures the 16th Panchen Lama and the Tibetans regarded him as the 6th Panchen Lama Hugh Richardson "It is the habit of Chinese writers to describe the late Panchen Lama as the IXth. To the mass of Tibetans it is beyond question that he was the VIth in succession from Lobzang Chokyi Gyaltsen, the teacher whom the Vth Dalai Lama created Ist Panchen Lama." In the Historical Introduction of "The secret report of the 10th Panchen Lama" Professor Dawa Norbu writes "The 10th Panchen Lama (actually the 7th of his line)". Charles Bell, on page 35 "The young fifth Dalai Lama made his old teacher, named 'The banner of Religion's Victory,' who was abbot first at Ta-shi Lhun-po..." Jagou "Thus the incarnation the Tibetans refer to as the Sixth Panchen Lama is known as the ninth Panchen Lama by the Chinese." When the Chinese Government forced the Tibetans to sign the 17 Point Agreement, they insisted on calling Choekyi Nyima the 9th Panchen Lama and this numbering was brought back to the west in the late 1980s until which time no such numbering had been used, outside of Tashi Lhunpo Monastery and Peking.