Talk:Thud (game)

Koom Valley Thud and Klash rules
Koom Valley Thud (KVT) section has recently been added. It should be pointed out that there is a freely distributable PDF file for KVT available for download in the official site forum somewhere (although I can't remember where exactly). The same PDF file can be found at http://www.oograhboike.com/downloads.html. The same (free PDF download) is true for the newest version of Thud playing, called Klash! If someone with more time and understanding of wiki format than me could add this, and a new Klash! section, I would be very grateful. Even more if you could add oograhboike.com to the external links. OB801 (talk) 01:02, 25 January 2008 (UTC)

Added "See Also" section
Added it just as an excuse to link to the other Discworld games in existance (Stealth Chess and Cripple Mr. Onion). Despite not being commercially released like Thud, full rules for both games exist. Patch86 14:59, 3 January 2007 (UTC)

Rules and copyright
For the record, at this point (2007) the rules are freely available on the game's official site. The secrecy surrounding the rules arround its initial release (when this discussion was going on) is well and truly over. Patch86 14:48, 3 January 2007 (UTC)

You know, the description of how to play, while very enjoyable to read. could be a facilitator to people looking to make thud boards and not give the money to Bernard Pearson or Pterry. (Anon comment from 60.231.181.90, 13:55, 1 February 2005)

Copyright covers the expression of an idea, not the idea itself. So far as I can tell the article describes the ideas in the rules but does not copy from the rules. If this is in fact the case then the section on game play should be restored. But as I do not have the rules to compare it too I will leave that task to some one else. (Anon comment from 70.19.241.205, 06:18, 3 February 2005)


 * Yeah, the content of the article from 11:50, 11 January 2005 doesn't look as though it's a direct lift of the rules word for word. But I also don't have a copy of the game to check and don't want to restore it without checking. As to the suggestion that people make thud boards, the description is far less useful that the pictures of the board freely available from the official website of the game. --Telsa 08:43, 12 July 2005 (UTC)


 * I've now reinstated the rules in the form of an account I wrote myself, so it isn't infringing on anyone's copyright. &mdash;Blotwell 11:38, 3 August 2005 (UTC)

The comments on copyright in response to the first para in this section remind me of the old joke about the hot-air balloonist and the computer helpdesk worker in the fog ("Can you tell me where I am?" "Yes! You're in a balloon!"): they're all quite true, but utterly useless. No, there isn't a copyright issue involved in publishing a description of the rules here, but yes it's going against the wishes of the creator of the game. It's discourteous, in other words. However, short of an Administrator coming in, wiping the page history and banning further edits, and then convinving Google and the Wayback Machine to take their caches down, there's no way around it now; Greebo is out of the bag. That's life. --Eric TF Bat 12:34, 7 October 2005 (UTC)

.
Just to clear up any confusion, and so as not to obscure what is already written, my comments go here. Please note that the notes below refer to Classic Thud and not the Koom Valley Variant, in which the number and layout of pieces, goal and capturing moves differ.

Movement
 * Dwarfs: Dwarfs may move any number of spaces in a straight line in any direction (chess Queen). They may end their turn in a square adjacent to a Troll without fear of immediate capture.  They may not pass through, over, under or around, nor land on any obstruction be it Dwarf, Troll or ThudStone, unless they are actively attacking a Troll (see below).
 * Trolls: Trolls may move only one space in any direction (chess King). They may end their turn in a square adjacent to a Troll without fear of immediate capture.  They may not pass through, over, under or around, nor land on any obstruction be it Dwarf, Troll or Thudstone.

Capturing
 * Important Notes: Capturing any piece is not compulsory, and at times it is a tactical advantage to move into a capturing position without capturing.  A "Hurl" or "Shove" may only take place if a capture results.
 * Drawfs: To capture a Troll, a Dwarf needs to be "Hurled" towards it. A Dwarf can only be hurled the same number of spaces (or less) as there are Dwarfs in its line, and this must include the space that the target Troll is on.  The attack must also be made in a straight line without obstruction between the hurling line and the target, but can be made in any direction.  When the attack is made, the Troll is removed from the board and the attacking Dwarf takes the Trolls place.   Note that a single Dwarf constitues a line of 1 in any direction, and therefore can hurl itself at a Troll, providing said Troll is on an adjacent space.  A single Dwarf cannot hurl itself more than one space, if it travels any greater distance and is not part of a shoving line of the correct size, it may only land next to the target without capture.
 * Trolls: The Trolls method of capture is slightly different from that of the Dwarfs. To capture a Dwarf, a Troll must be shoved towards its victim(s).  A Troll can only be shoved the same number of spaces (or less) as there are Trolls in the line.  Unlike the Dwarfs however, this does not include the space in which (one of) the target(s) occupies.  The attack must also be made in a straight line without obstruction between the shoving line and the target, but can be made in any direction.  Once the move has been made, any Dwarf in a square adjacent to the shoved troll is fair game and may be removed from the board.   As stated above, capturing is not compulsory, but as I understand it, at least one Dwarf must be removed from the board if a shove has been made, you cannot simply shove across the board then elect to leave all the capturable pieces alone. (The only exception to this is for a lone Troll who's normal move of one space could also be a shove.  In this case the Troll may land next to the Dwarf and elect not to capture it.  The Dwarf on the following turn is entitled to hurl itself at the Troll, run away, or remain where it is and have a different piece moved.   Note that if a Dwarf has landed next to a Troll on a previous move, you may not capture the Dwarf until your Troll has moved to another adjacent square.   When capturing any Dwarf(s) on adjacent spaces, the Troll remains where it is, unlike the Dwarf who captures the Trolls space in an attack.

Hope this has helped 81.96.213.197 00:33, 27 December 2005 (UTC)

Clarification
What does "endmost" mean? Example (D=Dwarf .=Blank space T=Troll)

Does it work like this: DDD...T to DD....D Or like this: DDD...T to .DD...D Or some other way? Fieari 07:11, September 11, 2005 (UTC)


 * The first one - the dwarf at the front gets "thrown" towards the troll. 203.26.177.2 17:11, 27 September 2005 (UTC)


 * Actually neither: it's

DDD..T to DD...D (one space fewer)  —Blotwell 01:12, 22 October 2005 (UTC)

Single dwarf throw
If a troll captures any dwarves it moves next to, how can a lone dwarf hurl itself one square to capture an adjacent troll? If any such troll existed, the dwarf would have been captured.


 * The dwarf may have made a normal move adjacent to the troll, and for whatever reason the troll player has chosen not to capture the dwarf. 203.26.177.2 17:09, 27 September 2005 (UTC)


 * What comes to mind is a circumstance where two capture moves are possible for the Trolls, where the Troll player opts for a "big capture" (multiple pieces) rather than a single capture. Think of a theoretical situation where 1 troll can move and capture 7 dwarves (unlikely, but possible) while another troll has a single adjacent drwarf. The troll is likely to go for the 7 piece capture instead of the 1 piece capture- allowing that single dwarf to capture the troll on its next move. Patch86 14:54, 3 January 2007 (UTC)
 * Also note that a troll have to move to capture. So if the dwarf was moved next to the troll in one move, and the troll player moved some other troll on his turn then the dwarf would still be one step away from the troll in the beginning of his turn, and free to make a capture. 85.166.65.153 15:52, 9 September 2007 (UTC)

New Version
It seems a new version of Thud! will be released shortly which promises a completely different game play that is also speedier. Older sets are still compatible so that means 2 games for the price of one!

81.96.213.197's edits to rules
81.96.213.197 (also posted above, out of chronological order) left the page in this state (with the bold EDITs sic). I reverted because firstly bold EDITs are bad and secondly I can't find any evidence in the official game rules (now linked from article) to substantiate the changes/clarifications. It's clear that you don't have to make a capture if you don't want to, but it's not clear that a troll making a capture move is permitted to not capture all adjacent dwarfs (sounds a pretty suicidal idea anyway). —Blotwell 08:05, 4 January 2006 (UTC)

On the dwarfs' turn, they may either
 * Move: any one dwarf is moved like a chess queen, any number of squares in any orthogonal or diagonal direction, but not onto or through any other piece, whether dwarf, troll, or Thudstone; or
 * Capture: anywhere there is a straight (orthogonal or diagonal) line of adjacent dwarfs on the board, they may hurl the endmost dwarf in the direction continuing the line, up to as many spaces as there are dwarfs in the line. This is different from a normal move in that the dwarf is permitted to land on a square containing a troll, in which case the troll is removed from the board and the dwarf takes his place.  This may only be done if the endmost dwarf can land on a troll by moving in the direction of the line at most as many spaces as there are dwarfs in the line.  Notice that since a single dwarf is a line of 1 in any direction, a dwarf may always move 1 space to capture a troll on an immediately adjacent square.

On the trolls' turn, they may
 * Move: one troll is moved like a chess king, one square in any orthogonal or diagonal direction onto an empty square. After the move, any dwarfs on the eight squares adjacent to the troll are immediately captured EDIT any dwarfs on the eight adjacent squares MAY be captured /EDIT and removed from the board.  (However, a dwarf on its turn may move next to a troll and is not automatically taken, and moreover the troll cannot then move onto the dwarf's square to capture it EDIT a troll does NOT move onto a dwarfs square when capturing /EDIT : in this situation the troll can only capture the dwarf by making a move to a different empty square which is also adjacent to the dwarf.)  Or they may
 * Capture: anywhere there is a straight (orthogonal or diagonal) line of adjacent trolls on the board, they may shove the endmost troll in the direction continuing the line, up to as many spaces as there are trolls in the line. As in a normal move, the troll may not land on an occupied square, but any dwarfs in the eight squares adjacent to its final position are immediately captured EDIT any dwarfs on the eight adjacent squares MAY be captured /EDIT and removed from the board.  However, the trolls may only make a shove if by doing so they capture at least one dwarf.

NB: Capture is NOT compulsory, and whilst it is a necessity, it may prove wiser to leave the occasional piece on the board. On this note, when a troll is shoved, so long as at least one dwarf is captured it can leave any others it chooses.


 * The same change was recently made to the rules by User:217.155.157.34, and I reverted again after failing to engage the anon in discussion on its talk page. Again, I can't find anything to substantiate the anon's claim on the official website rules which I'm assuming are canonical.  The rules do have a sentence "Capturing is not compulsory" but it's clear (to me) that the intention of this sentence is simply that a player is not obliged to play a capturing move if they would prefer to play an ordinary move (as contrasted with the rules for draughts, for instance).  It cannot mean that one may make a capturing move without removing any pieces, because that is explicitly contradicted by other rules, e.g. "A troll can only be shoved to make a capture".  —Blotwell 21:09, 15 May 2006 (UTC)


 * Sorry, and I wish it were different, but the anon contributors (myself and whomever preceded me) are completely correct. As the author and license-holder of thudgame.com's java applet I probably ought to have known that from the start, but as it was I was caught offbalance when someone revealed to me on the forums that I needed to take it into account. I still haven't added it to the applet, though.


 * But yes, it doesn't explicitly state in the rules that you CAN'T opt to spare some dwarfs, so long as if you were shoved, you take at least one. This has been confirmed in private email to Trevor Truran.


 * Belated oops: I should have signed the above. DewiMorgan 19:58, 9 April 2007 (UTC)

Request: Can someone cite the printed rules from the official game?
I moved some of the links to the official rules on the official site as references, which seems appropriate. It would be nice if we could also cite the actual printed rules that come with the game. They have the advantage of being less transient than online data. Would someone with an official copy of the game mind adding similar citations where appropriate? — Alan De Smet | Talk 03:47, 16 December 2006 (UTC)

I love Discworld, but...
This really seems to fall under the "things invented at school one day" category. Only barely, but it's basically a board game made by a Discworld fan, with no sources indicating that really anyone but Pratchett has commented on it at all.

I'm sure there are sources, though, so they need to be added. But the Discworld articles seem to have really spread out to more closely resemble a fan-wikia than a wikipedia project - few if any sources, and often obscure, in-universe topics. Not even Mr. Lister's Koromon survived intact. 02:35, 14 November 2008 (UTC)


 * You mean Wikipedia is not for things made up one day? I don't think a game that was licensed, published, and distributed falls under "things made up one day."  — Alan De Smet | Talk 06:56, 15 November 2008 (UTC)