Talk:Thule Society/Archive 1

Untitled
Agree - this looks like a conspiracy theorist site. The only other place where I've seen Thule called the main cause of the Nazi Party is in a sourcebook for the Call of Cthulhu role-playing game. And Hitler wasn't even a member of Thule!

It would be really cool to have some distinction between actual historical information and the mythology that the society believed in. As it is now, this page looks like a copy-paste from some random nazi ufo conspiracy site.

I think we need some citations here, or at least language that says things along the lines of "According the adherants of this theory, blah blah blah"

Citing sources/conspiracy theory: Honestly, it's all true! The sources given at the end document it all--especially Goodrick-Clarke's (excellent) book, and my own offering. If anyone is sufficiently interested, you can look up the footnotes in my book. At first I couldn't believe it myself, but the evidence is overwhelming. Note, however, that (as the article says) Hitler himself never had anything to do with the occultist side.Mark Sedgwick 07:43, 7 June 2006 (UTC)

This was removed by 138.88.61.249. Since I can't confirm or deny, I copy it here:
 * The Thule Society has documented ties with the Skull and Bones Society, of which George W. Bush is a member.

Skulles and bones has its historical routs in germany like a lot of student organisations i think I read once that it came from the area of Leipzig by medicinestudents to america. The bush famely was pro german their is no daught about that they belonged to the core of German supporters during the second world war. The plan of right wing america was probably to found a german -US allience against the leftwing jews and Kommunism. You can say now they have sucseeded in a way. In this case the cold war would have been totaly different, because russia would have been destroyed and not Germany the world would have been upside down. I dont think Hitler would have lived very long and even he had big daughts about the future of his Reich. I think US winning with Germany against Uddssr and the NS state would have been gone by 1960 and Greater Germany would have broken apart like Russia now. Germanys state contolled economy had simelar weeknesses like the Udssr but not the potencial and the US would have let germany not overtake the rich parts of sibiria  J.

The Thule Society identified Ultima Thule "to be the capital of ancient Hyperborea, as a lost ancient landmass in the extreme north" - not Nazi mystics. The Thule society was pre-Nazi.203.184.41.226 (talk) 20:14, 23 November 2012 (UTC)

Whats up w the reverts
Discuss please. I oppose deletion of huge blocks if text as a general rule, btw. Sam Spade 22:14, 5 May 2005 (UTC)
 * If you read the text I'm removing you can can see that our honourable anonymous editor is claiming that the Nazis had perfected anti-gravity technology. silsor 22:50, May 5, 2005 (UTC)

Yes, thats a common claim. Its also easilly verifiable. I can give you stack of references on not just that, but that they ride in said anti-grav discs thru the hollow earth and up to the moon w their reptiloid buddies. Check out Nazi mysticism. Sam Spade 23:08, 5 May 2005 (UTC)
 * Seen it, got the tshirt, added it to my User:Silsor/Neo-nazi watchlist. ;) silsor 01:55, May 6, 2005 (UTC)
 * It's verifiable that some people have claimed these things. It's not verifiable that any such accomplishments ever actually existed or exist today.  Discussion of such claims might be encyclopedic with sources cited objectively.  Inclusion of such claims as fact is unencyclopedic.  Barno 19:23, 11 May 2005 (UTC)

Hmm, maybe I should make a matching Stalinist revisionist watchlist ;) Sam Spade 12:38, 6 May 2005 (UTC)


 * Continued @


 * User_talk:Silsor


 * Administrators%27_noticeboard/Incidents

Please discuss
A primary focus of Thule-Gesellschaft was the discovering the origins of the Aryan race. Thule comes from the Greek and means "land". This society was named after "Ultima Thule"- the "Farthest Land" and capital of ancient Hyperborea at the extreme north near Greenland or Iceland. The Thulists also believed in the hollow earth theory and spent years of expeditions to remote parts of the earth in search of the entrances to the inner world where they could contact ancient civilizations that went underground and worship the Black Sun. Despite Thule's business contacts and political connections, having laid the very foundations of Nazism by founding the German Workers Political Circle, German Workers Party, and finally the National Socialist German Workers Party (NSDAP)by 1920, Thule's ultimate goal was to prove that the Aryan race came from this farthest north land-possibly Atlantis, which was lost. Thule had members from the top echelons of the Nazi Party, including Rudolf Hess and Alfred Rosenberg, Hermann Goering, Heinrich Himmler and of course Adolf Hitler himself. Its press organ was the Münchener Beobachter (Munich Observer) which later became the Völkischer Beobachter (People's Observer). Power through virulent anti-semitism and national socialism were just the first steps of Thule's sinister plan to subjugate the entire world by reconnecting with the Aryan race. Thule found its true purpose through the joining of societies in 1919 with the Vril Gesellschaft and DHvSS which also believed in worship of the Black Sun; but it was the psychic mediums of Vril and Thule's own resident psychic Maria Orsic that convinced them that the Aryan race didn't originate from earth but from Aldebaran in Alpha Tauri- 68 light years away. Vril also convinced the DHvSS (Men of the Black Stone) that their mountain goddess Isias was the queen of Aldebaran. With all their beliefs united Thule began funding construction of an inter-dimensional flight disc named the Jenseitsflugmaschine (Other World Flight Machine) in 1921. The disc was built through a series of psychic revelations of the medium Maria Orsic then translated by a Vril medium named Sigrun. Together, they provided the basic materials to be used in the construction of the machine and the first designs of the machine itself. This machine was then built in Munich in 1922 in secret under the leadership of Thulist Professor W.O. Schumann of the Technical University of Munich. Thule and Vril experimented with the odd disc machine for two years and then dismantled it after Professor Schumann derived a levitator unit from the research. This was perfected over many years and aroused great interest by Hitler, Himmler, and Goering. With the Nazi Party in power in 1933 Thule and Vril were given official backing to continue the disc development plans. Another Thulist, Dr. Krohn, designed the Nazi flag which contrary to popular belief does not come from the Swastika at all. The German Hakenkreuz (Hooked Cross) is derived from the Black Sun symbol worshipped by all three occult groups. Thule had this symbol atop a German dagger in 1919- fourteen years BEFORE Hitler even came to power. By 1935 Thule had joined with Himmler's SS technical branch unit E-IV (Entwicklunsstelle 4), tasked with developing alternate energies, and started working on a large flight disc under the code name H-Gerat (H-Device). The "H" stood for the remote location where the disc was being constructed- in Hauneburg. Meanwhile, by 1937 Vril had purchased the fallow land around the Arado Brandenburg aircraft plant and began to develop a series of RFZ (Rundflugzeug, Round Aircraft) that utilized Professor Schumann's SM-Levitator. Tests with these craft continued until 1939 when Thule and the SS E-IV unit created a working EMG (Electro-Magnetic-Gravitic) engine named the Thule Triebwerk (Thrustwork)and moved from Hauneburg to Arado Brandenburg. The device H-Gerat was then briefly included with Vril's RFZ series as RFZ-5 until war broke out. RFZ-5 then became Haunebu I. With Hitler declaring all secret societies in Germany be banned by 1941 both Thule and Vril were documented under the SS technical branch unit E-1V which continued to build both a Thule Haunebu series and Vril series of flight discs of increasing power. In 1941 with this ruling, RFZ-7 became Vril-1 Jager (Hunter). The goal of the SS was a potential war weapon but the occultists only goal was to achieve channeled flight through the construction of a large Raumschiff (Spaceship) which began construction in 1943 as the Andromeda-Gerat (Andromeda Device) which was a 139 meter long flying cylinder powered by four Thule Triebwerks and four pairs of SM-Levitators. The SS E-IV unit assigned a specific sub-group to work on just these two machines, the E-V unit which nicknamed Andromeda-1 "Freyr" and Andromeda-2 "Freya". Both were constructed in well camouflaged above ground hangars similar to the old destroyed Zeppelin hangars. In September 1944 one of the completed units was spotted by a Me-262 pilot and reported. Sonderburo 13 (Special Bureau 13) of the Luftwaffe covered-up the incident to prevent reports getting back to the Allies. The second machine was discovered partially constructed in 1945 by the US Army. But by then, both Thule and Vril had evacuated to bases outside the Reich in South America and German claimed Antarctica- Neu Schwabenland, at a secret military installation, Base 211. They took their technology with them while the Vril mediums used the completed Andromeda-2 Freya to attempt channeled flight to Aldebaran in March 1945. After VE-Day in Europe no trace was found of either society. Allied intelligence teams pressured Argentina to not allow the Germans safe haven in that nation so U-boats 977 and 530 which surrendered after the war were captured with their holds empty of cargo and personnell. The Allied authorities were searching for Thule and Vril technology and for answers concerning the location of Base 211. They got nothing. No trace of Thule nor Vril was found except fragmentary documents of which the last Vril message contains a return date in our lifetime- 2004/2005. It was written in March 1945. This coincides with Hitler's last personal testament that,"In the last days my spirit will rise again and I will be proven right." which was verbally stated on April 30, 1945 just hours before Hitler committed suicide. In just 25 years, Thule created the Nazi Party, the Nazi Flag, groomed Hitler, created Himmler's empire within Germany- which ensured the Holocaust, spread the myth of Aryan superiority, built occult discs, secret bases outside the Reich, and even planned a return in the future.
 * Source? --Kbdank71 18:40, 6 May 2005 (UTC)
 * interesting pretty deep stuff here. not sure what to think TomSkillingJr.
 * Well, I'm sure what to think and I sure don't think much. Nothing of Thule Society or Vril Society was found because the VS didn't exist and Thule had disbanded around 1925. And we're already well past the "return date". I'd read on down the page; User:Pjacobi usually hits it on the head. I'd also check out the Thule sections in Völkisch movement and Germanic mysticism. Sure, I've had some input into both those articles, but based upon Goodrick-Clarke's badly-mistitled The Occult Roots of Nazism which is a down-to-earth and pretty authoritative refutation of over-the-top claims. Thule's main and almost only contribution to the Nazi party was to set up the discussion group which evolved into it. (By the way, the symbol atop the Thule dagger is plainly a swastika, Krohn's design was a swastika and the Black Sun is also a swastika variant &mdash; plenty of groups used versions of the thing, proving exactly what?) Among Hitler's first moves &mdash; one that he reinforced many times when actually in power &mdash; was to disconnect the party from any occult/mystical control. (Individual Nazi leaders could of course retain their private beliefs as long as there was no actual involvement with secret societies.) I think it could even be argued that if the occultists and mystics had retained control &mdash; and even despite a fair amount of occult anti-semitism, which was not unusual for the time &mdash; there almost certainly wouldn't have been a Holocaust. Gnostrat 04:36, 5 May 2007 (UTC)

Nazi mysticism and vrill should contain all the info and leads you need. Sam Spade 21:43, 6 May 2005 (UTC)

Etymology
Is there any evidence for the etymology given in the article? I can find no sign that there's a relevant Greek word meaning "land"; the term seems always to have been a proper noun, and its etymology is obscure. I suppose that it might come from the verb "tithimi" (of which the aorist 2nd imperfect was "thou"), having a range of meanings centring on "set", "put", & "place".

I've tidied some of the English, and wikified the headers. Mel Etitis ( &Mu;&epsilon;&lambda; &Epsilon;&tau;&eta;&tau;&eta;&sigmaf; ) 13:49, 8 May 2005 (UTC)


 * I noticed. Are you aware that editing a protected page is against policy, and an abuse of your adminship? Sam Spade 13:52, 8 May 2005 (UTC)


 * As you've whinged about it in at least three places as well as on my Talk page, it's unlikely that I'd missed it. I've also apologised for doing it, explaining to those who are willing to assume good faith that it was an honest mistake. Mel Etitis  ( &Mu;&epsilon;&lambda; &Epsilon;&tau;&eta;&tau;&eta;&sigmaf; ) 14:20, 8 May 2005 (UTC)


 * I don't whinge. I alert others to your ignorant abuses. I am aware that you were in all likelyhood negligent of applicable policies. Lets focus on the article on this page. Sam Spade 14:24, 8 May 2005 (UTC)


 * Really? That's why you referred to it as a "vulgar display of power"? Mel Etitis  ( &Mu;&epsilon;&lambda; &Epsilon;&tau;&eta;&tau;&eta;&sigmaf; ) 14:42, 8 May 2005 (UTC)


 * See above. Sam Spade 15:20, 8 May 2005 (UTC)

I have no objections to your grammer corrections once the page is unportected. I have no source regarding the etymology other than what can be found @ thule. Sam Spade 14:26, 8 May 2005 (UTC)


 * Well, as Thule has no mention of etymology, that's not much use. When the page is unprotected, I think that that section needs to be slimmed down unless and until someone can verify the etymology. Mel Etitis  ( &Mu;&epsilon;&lambda; &Epsilon;&tau;&eta;&tau;&eta;&sigmaf; ) 14:44, 8 May 2005 (UTC)

Give it a week so that the editors in question have an opportunity to become aware of your concerns and provide their references. I will also look into the matter. Sam Spade 15:20, 8 May 2005 (UTC)

Unprotected
I have unprotected this page, since three days is more than enough to ward off vandalism. Unprotection is not an endorsement of anyone's actions or a particular version. JRM · Talk 14:49, 2005 May 8 (UTC)
 * In the unprotection reason I wrongly stated that the page was not listed on Protected pages. It was. My apologies. JRM · Talk 14:51, 2005 May 8 (UTC)

Where's Thule?
This part: The society was named after "Ultima Thule" — Latin for the "Furthest Thule", said to be the capital of ancient Hyperborea, placed in the extreme north near Greenland or Iceland. mixes everything a bit up. See the main article Thule. The simplest solution seems to be, not trying to summarize the Thule article here. Also note that identification of Thule and Hyperborea is rather recent one. To the ancient greeks, these two places were rather unconnected.

Pjacobi 15:40, 2005 May 8 (UTC)

Its right here:

http://www.thule.af.mil/ —Preceding unsigned comment added by 58.137.192.66 (talk) 01:08, 22 January 2010 (UTC)

Stop!
Sam, stop adding this Vril nonsene here. It is worse enough to have it in Vril. Please see: Pjacobi 15:47, 2005 May 8 (UTC)
 * Verifiability
 * No_original_research


 * Firstly, I don't appreciate your tone, given the circumstances. Secondly I am well aware of the dubious nature of these citations and so forth, but unless you have something better to go on, we use what we can. There is loads of info on this subject, and I see no reason not to include it here. Sam Spade 15:50, 8 May 2005 (UTC)


 * There aren't actually citations, by the way, only "some believe that", "it is claimed that" and "it is suggested that". If these statements are backed up by the websites in "external links", they should be used as references, with the source clearly indicated (saying "it's on this URL somewhere" is not sufficient; at the very least include the author). JRM · Talk 15:55, 2005 May 8 (UTC)


 * @Sam This is the article about the Thule Society, not your pet article on Vril. There are scholarly sources on the Thuly Society and there is no need at all, to add some wild claims from the WWW. --Pjacobi 15:57, 2005 May 8 (UTC)

Who else makes claims about thule other than conspiracy theorists? Sam Spade 16:01, 8 May 2005 (UTC)
 * The "Thule Society" is a well known fact of history. What is know about it from history sources should be reported here. I'll search for the english editions of the books mentioned in the german article and add them in a minute. --Pjacobi 21:10, 2005 May 8 (UTC)


 * @JRM: It is not encyclopedic to add to every article on X, a chapter what conspiracy theorists claim about X. --Pjacobi 15:57, 2005 May 8 (UTC)
 * You misunderstand. I am not commenting on the issue and I was not endorsing or advocating a course of action; I merely pointed out that citations have certain minimum requirements that weren't met here. What should or shouldn't be in the article is another matter. JRM · Talk 16:03, 2005 May 8 (UTC)

I am looking into Cite sources and External links. I suggest others do likewise, it'll probably help resolve these matters. Sam Spade 16:09, 8 May 2005 (UTC)
 * You are citing dubious sources for the dubious claims, in a form which is simply misleading. --Pjacobi 21:10, 2005 May 8 (UTC)


 * SS 's peculiar argument ("I am well aware of the dubious nature of these citations and so forth, but unless you have something better to go on, we use what we can") can't go unchallenged. If all we have are dubious sources, then we have a genuine option &mdash; don't add anything.  Articles aren't sharks: they don't have to keep moving in order to stay alive. Mel Etitis  ( &Mu;&epsilon;&lambda; &Epsilon;&tau;&eta;&tau;&eta;&sigmaf; ) 21:39, 8 May 2005 (UTC)

"unless you have something better to go on, we use what we can" ~SamSpade Since when was that a policy? Might as well dump the bucket and write that the Thule Society spawned Darth Vader. As you can see, I'm not exactly a long-time member of Wikipedia (although I have been making edits and looking over pages as an unregistered member), but that sort of thinking just leads to misinformation. After all, if you have no proof that the Thule Society did not create a small civilization on Pluto before arguing that it isn't really a planet and therefore the civilization must be destroyed, are you going to assume that it's true? Ryuugaki 04:41, 7 December 2006 (UTC)

Rudolf von Sebottendorf
Why does Rudolf von Sebottendorf keep getting removed from the list of members? Sam Spade 01:27, 9 May 2005 (UTC)


 * Because he is already prominently named as founder. --Pjacobi 10:24, 2005 May 9 (UTC)

Sure, so he's also a member... What is your interest in this subject BTW, you seem to favor minimizing odd interpretations. My interest is almost entirely due to the odd interpretations, conspiracy theories, lizards riding underground UFOs, etc... Sam Spade 21:13, 9 May 2005 (UTC)


 * Yes. I'd say, we underestimate the short term memory of our readership, if we put too many repetetions in the article. Proper encyclopedic style is rather terse and abhors repetetions. This is something which is already rather lost in en.wikipedia, but we can always try struggle for it.
 * As for myself, I aim for making small contributions to writing a free encyclopedia. In my spare time I'm a professional disputer, as User:Timharwoodx so nicelely stated.
 * Pjacobi 22:28, 2005 May 9 (UTC)


 * It's normal practice to mention people once (and to link to them once), unless there's anything new to say about them; here there isn't, and the membership section comes immediately after the section on the man himself (a long section that already overbalances this article, given that there's a separate article on him). The casual reader might get the mistaken impression that Wikipedia editors are obsessed with the man. Mel Etitis  ( &Mu;&epsilon;&lambda; &Epsilon;&tau;&eta;&tau;&eta;&sigmaf; ) 22:45, 9 May 2005 (UTC)

I suppose you mean me. i just heard of the guy, so you can forget any serious obsession on my part. He founded this organisation, so him being a focus of an article on it would strike me as unsuprising. If you'd like to see more balance, consider adding some content, rather than deleting. Were here to write an encyclopedia, not delete one. Sam Spade 13:16, 11 May 2005 (UTC)


 * Deleting, or more specifically editorial shortening, is also important to maintain an encyclopedic style. --Pjacobi 13:33, 2005 May 11 (UTC)

Maybe in a paper encyclopedia, but Wiki is not paper. So long as neutrality and accuracy are preserved, there is no reason to shorten articles. Sam Spade 16:14, 11 May 2005 (UTC)


 * Your definition of an encyclopedia doesn't seem to match mine. --Pjacobi 16:48, 2005 May 11 (UTC)

See encyclopedia, thats my definition of an encyclopedia... Sam Spade 19:43, 11 May 2005 (UTC)


 * I'm not sure what this has to do with the definition of "encyclop&aelig;dia" &mdash; it's a question of good writing, and wanting to avoid overlong and repetitive articles. Neutrality and accuracy are essential, but readability and clarity are also essential. Mel Etitis ( &Mu;&epsilon;&lambda; &Epsilon;&tau;&eta;&tau;&eta;&sigmaf; ) 21:13, 11 May 2005 (UTC)

himmler
weren't himmler a member of the society? If not, could you please tell me which was his society which impregnated himself with neo-pagan culture? thanks


 * Are you thinking of the Ahnenerbe? Or possibly simply Wewelsburg Castle? :) Sherurcij (talk) (bounties) 07:44, 1 January 2006 (UTC)

Seven Years in Tibet
Was the expedition of Seven Years in Tibet related to the Thule Soc? Was it just a sports initiative? Another society? --Error 00:42, 22 July 2005 (UTC)

The membership of Hitler in the Thule Society
Where exactly did you get the information that Hitler wasn't a member? I've read the opposite, for example in "Scarlet and the Beast" by Jack Daniel, if I remember correctly. Either way, it is a fact, Hitler was a member.

This article is nothing but a heap of historically incorrect nonsense. First of all, Hitler sure as hell was a member of the Thule society. Second of all, the Nazi party WAS the Thule society. Third of all.. "unlike Hitler, Himmler was interested in occultism" ??? If Hitler wasnt interested in occultism, why did he spend most of his time when living in Vienna studying Wolfram von Eschenbach, and the Holy Grail? And why was he so obsessed with the Spear of Destiny? And why was he a "visiting brother" at Thule? I personally think this article needs to be rewritten from scratch, based on actual historical facts. Try using sources like someone who knew Hitler.. like Gauleiter Rauschning, and Dr. Walter Johannes Stein, who had detailed knowledge of Thule society, he was even Churchill's advisor about the inner working of the Nazis. Even though he did not write a book about this himself, because he died soon after undertaking that project, his "disciple" Trevor Ravenscroft did, and his book is called "Spear of Destiny". It is a most valuable source when studying the Thule society. Anyway.. just get your facts straight.


 * Please help by editing the article. Sam Spade 20:10, 16 October 2005 (UTC)

Occult?
The talk section "WTF?" suggests a question. The Thule Society probably qualified as occult in the sense of secretive, and they apparently had some odd beliefs. But did they see themselves as practicing magic? I've seen no proof of this. Dan 20:03, 16 October 2005 (UTC) Will someone please cite a source for the claim that these people espoused ideas of the occult? Dan 05:08, 25 October 2005 (UTC)

Why does this statement exist? "Hitler, however, was never a member of the Thule Society before its transformation into the Nazi Party,[1] in spite of allegations about his occult initiation in Nazi-occult literature." What does the forst part have to do with the second part? It smacks of propaganda. Even if it can be proved that Hitler was never a member of Thule, it sys nothing of his "initiation into the occult". Thule is not the only occult group out there. Further, since there's usually no real membership role, one doesn't necessarily need to be a member of a society to be initiate into the thought. I suggest the second part of this statement be removed. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 98.119.196.121 (talk) 20:00, 1 March 2009 (UTC)

Remove?
Any complaints/explanations on ''Some believe they sent expeditions to remote parts of the earth in search of the entrances to the inner world where they could contact ancient underground civilizations who worship the Black Sun. The SS did send researchers to all corners of the world looking to expand their understanding of the origins of the Aryan race.'', I'm pretty sure that expeditions were solely the work of Ahnenerbe, not the Thule society which was more of a Skull'n'Bones type of "stay at home" bit. Sherurcij 07:04, 1 December 2005 (UTC) -it's been removed-

Removed content
I removed this line from the intro:


 * Islam is notoriously anti-semitic (See www.prophetofdoom.net under its teachings concerning Jews) and Turkey is 90% Muslim.

I removed it because it makes a sweeping and unsupported generalisation that many Muslims I'm sure would consider offensive based only on a website, and because it appears to be entirely irrelevant. Please do not add this content back. Deco 09:13, 19 March 2006 (UTC)

just wanted to add there seems to be a contradiction between:

Also, many of the occult ideas found favour with Heinrich Himmler who, like Hitler, had a great interest in mysticism.

and

It is quite clear that Hitler himself had little interest in, and made little time for, "esoteric" matters.

Cant really have an 'great' interest in mysticism ,while having little time for the esoteric

edit: i guess its not important but it sticks out as a contradiction in terms to me


 * I noticed that contradiction, too, as well as this one:


 * - "Hitler, however, was never a member of the Thule Society."
 * - "Adolf Hitler was a member(The Occult and the Third Reich, Jean Michel Angebert, 1974. p. 9)."


 * Which is it?


 * Don Dueck 18:41, 28 August 2006 (UTC)

Hitler as I know ( I think the ss state Joachim C Fest is writing about this I hand an old book of him the new books are somehow chanched ) did not like to be member of the Thule organisation because he sah himselfe as a political leader. But every body around him was member of this organisation and I have read that he was dilivertly used by the organisation as a political cover. As the Head to world ( like many secret societys who have this ) later thrue the SS the Thule organisation got more and more power a lot of them where never members of the NSDAP they need not to be and had a serten carier after the war in Germany. Read the story about Hans Arp. This organisation surly survived and in my opinion is called today Scientology their are to many simelaritis that can not be coincident. Hubert may have again been only the Head to the world. I would like to read the list of their early German members in the US and I pet everything I have I will find the Thule organisation. J

Nazi Thulists
I've only skimmed through this talk page so maybe I've missed some discussion on the subject but it's clear to me that the passage about supposed Thule members (other than Hitler) becoming prominent Nazis is seriously problematic so I've tried to fix it. I've never heard Feder or Streicher linked with the Thule, but Goodrick-Clarke (in the 1985 British edition from Aquarian Press) is clear that Feder, at least, was only a visitor, as were Hess, Rosenberg and Eckart. Frank was a Thule member according to Dietrich Bronder's Bevor Hitler kam (1964) but G-C calls this account 'spurious' and 'fictitious'. Harrer was a Thulist but became an opponent of Hitler after he was elbowed out of any key role or influence in the DAP. I've removed Streicher's and Harrer's names from the list: Harrer wasn't a Nazi and I strongly doubt that Streicher was a Thulist. I've also struck out the reference to the DAP in this context: most DAP members weren't in the Thule Society and whether or not they went on to become prominent in Nazi Germany is not relevant to the question of Thulist involvement at the highest levels. Gnostrat 05:19, 6 January 2007 (UTC)

Alfred Rosenberg
Did not Alfred Rosenberg write for or edit the society newspaper (the Münchener Beobachter)? Would he have been so involved with the newspaper and not have been a member of the society? Does anyone know more about this, Rosenberg's involvement with the newspaper? -Coldwarrier 01:59, 3 May 2007 (UTC)


 * I'm not pretending to be an expert on this, but... Sebottendorff bought the Beobachter in 1918 but he left Munich in 1919 and the editors promptly fell out. In 1920, Sebottendorff's shareholders lost control and all shares were in Hitler's hands by November 1921. So by the time Rosenberg became editor, the paper was no longer a Thule Society organ. And Rosenberg himself had never been a Thule member, though it seems he did attend some of its meetings and might have picked up some ideas in that way. Gnostrat 05:07, 5 May 2007 (UTC)

Donnelly's Speculation
"These ideas derived from earlier speculation by Ignatius L. Donnelly that a lost landmass had once existed in the Atlantic, and that it was the home of the Aryan race, a theory he supported by reference to the distribution of swastika motifs."

Is there a reference verifying that these ideas derived from Donnelly's speculation? Also, is there any information on Donnelly's reference to the distribution of swastika motifs? Squideshi 23:06, 8 May 2007 (UTC)

Citation template
Not sure what advantage there is in this current Harvard citation template. The previous colon style was succinct, and seems to be the way Harvard references are written in most academic sources. The hyperlinks don't lead anywhere, and if I want to cite a footnote in an online article (where there's no page numbers you can enter), it displays sort of...weird. Or am I just being picky? Gnostrat (talk) 00:36, 23 April 2008 (UTC)

SS Religion
I have been investigating the SS religion. Once the foundations are established it seems clear what its purpose, aims and origins were. I am tempted to enter the full article somewhere, but where?

Here is the outline. In 1935, the SS journal "Das Schwarze Korps" commissioned a Professor at Leipzig to write a number of articles on the history of the Germanen going back to at least the Bronze Age. The purpose was to show the readership of the time how "our National Socialist sun cult of which the swastika is the modern symbol" originated from that period of prehistory.

There is no doubt whatever that the SS solstice ceremonies were part of this cult. Furthermore the underlying belief of the SS religion was reincarnation. Here the philosophy was that the gods are either dead or never existed, it is Man's duty to advance himself into a God-Man. This tremendous task will be obstructed by the inferior races, and so you know what to do with them. There is clear co-relationship between statements made by Hitler and Himmler on the religion. But how and why did a modern, advanced industrial society revert to worshipping the sun?

Once the underlying belief is understood there are a number of questions which emerge. To what extent these could form part of an article is an unknown factor. 1)Since Himmler accepted the law of karma, how did he convince the SS faithful that they were exempt from personal karma for the monstrosities they were to commit? One assumes the assurance must have come from Hitler. 2)In 1942 at the latest, Hitler called the Berghof "Gralsburg" - the "fortress of the Grail". To what extent was it believed that the Holy Grail operated through Hitler? 3)In the sun cult, the runes were used for a magical purpose. The alleged aim of the Thule Society was to contact discarnate forces to establish a new race. To what extent was the SS involved in this quest, and what success did it have?

I should be grateful for opinions. (Personally I have reason to believe that very highly advanced scientific information was made available to the SS towards the end of the war, too late to influence events of the Hitler period, but possibly useful for later, which is why this subject interests me substantially.) GMB (Sorry Argentine programme no tildes only-ññññ) —Preceding unsigned comment added by Geoffreybrooks (talk • contribs) 14:49, 7 May 2008 (UTC)

MEMBERSHIP (both honorary or active at some time)
Added full list of the founding members and their positions in the society with two references. Further references can be provided. Left other unconfirmed members and comments. Regarding "Other members were Karl Fiehler, Wilhelm Frick, Michel Frank, Heinrich Jost, Wolfgang Pongratz, Wilhelm Laforce, Johann Ott, Hans Riemann, Max Seselmann, and Hans-Arnold Stadler.[citation needed]'

I will check each of these and edit once I can confirm with references. I have left for the time being.

Der größte von ihnen war der straff paramilitärisch organisierte „Bund Oberland“, Nachfolgeorganisation des zur Niederschlagung der Räteregierung gegründeten „Freikorps Oberland“. Ein besondere Rolle spielte in München die in der besseren Gesellschaft angesiedelte, völkisch-antisemitische Thule-Gesellschaft mit Geschäftsstelle im noblen Hotel „Vierjahreszeiten“. Über die Thule-Gesellschaft stießen u. a. Dietrich Eckart, Alfred Rosenberg, Rudolf Heß, Hans Frank und Gottfried Feder zur NSDAP. Im Dezember 1920 übernahm die NSDAP von der Thule-Gesellschaft deren Wochenzeitung „Münchner Beobachter“ und baute diese in der Folge zum täglich erscheinenden Parteiorgan „Völkischer Beobachter aus“. Zur Thule-Gesellschaft gehörte auch der Verleger Julius Lehmann, der zugleich ab 1920 eine Münchner Ortsgruppe des „Deutschvölkischen Schutz- und Trutzbundes“ führte, eine Sammelorganisation völkisch-antisemitischer Vereinigungen mit Hauptsitz in Hamburg. Schließlich operierte von München aus auch die „Organisation Consul“, ein Geheimbund, der u. a. den ehemaligen Reichsfinanzminister Matthias Erzberger und Reichsaußenminister Walter Rathenau ermordete. In der Verlagsstadt München erschienen zahlreiche Bücher und Zeitschriften nationalistischen, antisemitischen und rassistischen Inhalts, wobei sich wiederum Julius Lehmann mit seinem naturwissenschaftlich-medizinischen Verlag hervortat.

Gutachten des Instituts für Zeitgeschichte, München - Berlin erstattet im Auftrag der Bayerischen Landeszentrale für politische Bildungsarbeit 4. November 2002

None of the above mentioned.

Max Seselmann (actually Marc Seselmann) and Wilhelm Laforce confirmed by "Before Hitler Came": Thule Society and Germanen Orden by RH Phelps - 1963.

SOURCE FOR OTHER NAMES (lacks ref: -

Hier eine etwas glaubhaftere Liste der Mitglieder der Thule-Gesellschaft:

Mitglieder

Prominente Mitglieder der Thule Gesellschaft waren:


 * Dietrich Eckart, Publizist und Weggefährte von Adolf Hitlers
 * Gottfried Feder, Wirtschaftstheoretiker und Politiker der DAP und NSDAP
 * Alfred Rosenberg, NS-Ideologe und Politiker
 * Hans Frank, promovierter Jurist und NS-Politiker
 * Karl Harrer, Journalist und Mitbegründer der "Deutsche Arbeiterpartei" (DAP)
 * Rudolf Hess, NS-Ideologe und Politiker
 * Julius Streicher, NS-Politiker und Herausgeber des "Stürmer" (antijudaistische Wochenzeitung)

TRANSLATED Here is a little more credible list of members of the Thule Society: Members Prominent members of the Thule were Company: * Dietrich Eckart, a journalist and associate of Adolf Hitler * Gottfried Feder, economists and politicians of the DAP and the NSDAP * Alfred Rosenberg, Nazi ideologist and politician * Hans Frank, a doctorate in law and Nazi politician * Karl Harrer, a journalist and co-founded the German Workers&#39; Party (DAP) * Rudolf Hess, Nazi ideologist and politician * Julius Streicher, Nazi politician and publisher of the "striker" (anti-Jewish weekly newspaper )

Weitere angebliche Mitglieder waren:

TRANSLATED
 * Karl Fiehler, Politiker der NSDAP und Münchner Oberbürgermeister
 * Wilhelm Frick, nationalsozialistischer Politiker und Reichsminister des Innern
 * Heinrich Jost
 * Wolfgang Pongratz
 * Wilhelm Laforce, Redakteur
 * Johann Ott
 * HansRiemann
 * Marc Seselmann, Mitarbeiter des "Völkischen Beobachters"
 * Hans-Arnold Stadler, Gauleiter Gau Stadel (Bayern)

Other alleged members were: Karl Fiehler, politicians of the Nazi Party and mayor of Munich Wilhelm Frick, Nazi politician and Reich Minister of the Interior Heinrich Jost Wolfgang Pongratz Wilhelm Laforce, editor John Ott Hans Riemann Marc Seselmann, employees of the "VB" Hans-Arnold Stadler, Gauleiter Gau Stadel (Bayern)

CHANGED "FOUNDING MEMBERS" to "MEMBERS (both honorary or active at some time)" as despite the references, many were never actively involved, as the timeline does not fit, or established facts indicate they joined after the society formed.

Mrfh (talk) 06:12, 5 May 2010 (UTC)

Why no picture?
This picture is important: http://www.stateoftheart.nl/phenomenon/pics/subjects/cults/thule/thule.gif It shows that the Nazi Party took "swastika" from Thule Society... You can find better sources, if you want Böri (talk) 12:44, 30 December 2010 (UTC)

Apropos so-called "blood declaration of faith"
I just put the following text into the Ariosophy-article. Maybe this article is a better place. 79.230.186.198 (talk) 00:35, 25 February 2011 (UTC)

In 1917 people who wanted to join the "Germanic Order", out of which the Thule Society developed in 1918, had to sign a special "blood declaration of faith" concerning the lineage:
 * "The signer hereby swears to the best of his knowledge and belief that no Jewish or coloured blood flows in either his or in his wife's veins, and that among their ancestors are no members of the coloured races."