Talk:Tiến lên/Archive 1

Picture
Hi guys, The game is from Vietnam, but the picture in from china. Is that china dominating this world now?

Move discussion in progress
There is a move discussion in progress on Talk:Bun rieu which affects this page. Please participate on that page and not in this talk page section. Thank you. —RMCD bot 08:29, 9 July 2013 (UTC)

Some initial edits
the listing of order for suits of cards for 13 was in an order i had never heard of ever, before i fixed it and i have played this game alot. Also four of a kind IS a bomb.

Note the strong similarities between this game and Big Two. It's natural to wonder if the two games have a common ancestor. I'd like to see some research on this. I suspect that the Chinese and Vietnamese Wikipedia pages might have more detailed histories of these games.

In thirteen 'bombs' are called cuts. This may be more for the eastern united states. Cuts are consecutive pairs, or 4 of a kind.

At my high school (West Coast, USA) 'bombs' and 'cuts' are called 'Two Killers.' I think all three terms are acceptable. --68.228.85.58 17:50, 27 May 2006 (UTC)

Busters
In every school I have attended, your "Two Killers" are colloquially called "busters." I added that to the list of terms for it, hope you folks don't mind. --RpgActioN 05:21, 13 July 2006 (UTC)

Bombs
From my experience in 13 from San Jose, 33-44-55 / 3333 etc are all called Bombs. You may "overkill" a 2 with 33445566, 333444555, etc. 4 of a kind beats 2, 22, 3-pair straight, and 4-pair straight. You can't bomb non-2s or non-bombs. A 7-card straight also counted as a bomb as well (though it was likely used just for our circle). It wasn't widely used, so I can't tell you the exact semantics.

Philadelphia Thirteen
Hey,

I've been playing Thirteen for years in Philadelphia, and we have some different variations used.

"Cuts" here are still called chops and consist of the traditional four-of-a-kind (which beats a single 2 or two 2's) or consecutive pairs, but with the difference of the number of cards used to beat combinations.. 33-44-55 chops a single 2, 33-44-55-66 chops two 2's (not a single 2 though. The combination for that is already present and either the 33 or 66 needs to be left out), 33-44-55-66-77 would chop three 2's only. Four 2's is an auto-win. Combinations of three-of-a-kind (333-444-555) have to be broken up into a 33-44-55 set and a 3-4-5 straight or played as other combinations. Combination four-of-a-kinds (3333-4444-5555), while not officially a combination, obviously can be broken into 33-44-55 33-44-55 or can be used as

Also, chops can only be used on 2's. It can't be used on any other combinations.

Also, a Dragon hand isn't an instant win unless it uses the Ace of Hearts and doesn't require a 2. Granted, the odds of any other player having that combination are still slim, but the odds of it happening still goes up if one player has a Dragon, so usually the win happens anyway. Also, the Mah Jong hand isn't a win either.

If a player has more than one card left in their hand, they can completely lie about the number left. They can say 4, 8, 31,200... it really doesn't matter. Courtesy rules apply though. If you have one card left you have to be honest.

Players can't jump in once they've passed, they have to wait for a new round. This applies for chops also.

Philly style is basically unknown. It seems to be a combination of rules from Hawaii. I just found out the Vietnamese name of this game recently. We started playing like this back in the 80's and host yearly tournaments on it.

Can you tell us more about your Tournaments?
Hi there,

I am in the process of writing a book about this game, in the hopes of standardising the game so that it can become professional like Poker. I need to write on a section of tournaments. Can you describe how your tournament was played out? Its scoring system? Number of games played? Determination of the winner?

Thankyou,

For a useful reference, see http://www.pagat.com/climbing/. It suggests a different standard version and it also talks about related games such as Zheng Shangyou. Some of the rules on here I've never heard of anywhere but here, so I wonder if they should be considered standard (specifically, the rules that govern trading sessions).

As of Wednesday 11th October 2006, the Tien Len page is total non sense.

- Locks (ala Straight Fluxes) is not the main variation, it belongs to some kind of cambodian variation of playing. Flushes have never been a part of Vietnamese Big 2, and they never will be! So there is no reason why straight flushes (fluxes) should be. - Trading is not a standard rule, especially from a professional sense - Sequences are NOT STRAIGHTS, since a straight is a FIVE card Poker sequence, the preferred term is Run, at least a 3 Card Sequence. - A Dragon must contain a Deuce, which is symbolically the head of the dragon.

Please don't change the pages with some kind of mutant variation of yours. We need to reach agreement (similar to the early Poker days) if this game is to ever reach official and professional level.

I am currently writing chapters in my book, Vietnamese Big 2: Being the Top Dog, and will hopefully release it soon.

THIS is how you play Tiến lên
http://vn.vinagames.com/tienlen.html The Official Rules, loosely translated (Sorry if my English isn't too good): Cards you can normally play:
 * Riêng lẻ (Rác): 1 quân bài ("Trash" - The single cards.)
 * Đôi: 2 quân bài cùng giá trị ("Pair" - self-explanatory.)
 * Bộ Ba: 3 quân bài cùng giá trị ("A set of three" - Three of a Kind.)
 * Tứ Quí: 4 quân bài cùng giá trị. Tứ Quí là 1 tập hợp đặc biệt ("Treasure" - Four of a Kind.)
 * Sảnh: 3 quân bài hay nhiều hơn hợp thành 1 dăy liên tiếp ("Sequence" - at least three cards in numerical sequence.)
 * Đôi thông: 6 quân bài hay nhiều hơn tạo ra 1 dăy liên tiếp của Đôi. Đôi thông là 1 tập hợp bài đặc biệt. ("A road of pairs" - at least six cards, similar to a Sảnh, but consists of pairs instead of single cards.)

Heo ("Pig" - a two) is the most powerful single card in the game. The following hợp bài đặc biệt ("special sequences of cards") may be used to chận 1 con Heo ("Pin down/supress/tame a Pig" - allows you to punish a player to playing a two.)
 * Ba Đôi Thông (3 đôi liên tiếp) có thể chận 1 con Hai (Heo) ("A Road of three pairs may pin down one Pig")
 * Tứ Quí có thể chận Ba Đôi Thông hay 1 con Hai (Heo) ("A Treasure may pin down one Pig or A Road of Three Pairs")
 * Bốn Đôi Thông có thể chận Tứ Quí, Ba Đôi Thông, 1 con Hai (Heo), hay đôi Hai (đôi Heo). ("A Road of Four Pairs may pin down any of the above, or a pair of Pigs.")

There are special requirements you can fufill to Thắng Tự Động ("Win Automatically").
 * Tay bài có 6 đôi. Thắng gấp đôi ("Six Pairs." - If you're gambling, you win double the cash prize)
 * Tay bài có 5 đôi liên tiếp. Thắng gấp đôi ("A Road of Five Pairs" - win double the cash prize)
 * Sảnh Rồng, tay bài có sảnh của 13 lá (sảnh của 12 và con Hai (Heo)). Thắng gấp 4 lần. ("Dragon Sequence" - A sequence from 3 to xì [Ace] and a heo, win quadruple the cash prize)
 * Phần Sảnh Rồng, tay bài có sảnh của 12 lá. Thắng gấp đôi. ("Partial Dragon Sequence" - A sequence from 3 to xì [Ace], win double the cash prize)
 * Tay bài có 4 con Hai (heo). Thắng gấp 4 lần ("All four Pigs" - win quadruple)
 * 13 lá bài đen (hay đỏ). Thắng gấp 4 lần ("13 cards of the same color" - Either red [hearts and diamonds] or black [clubs and spades], win quadruple)
 * 12 lá bài đen (hay đỏ). Thắng gấp đôi ("12 cards of the same color" - win double)

Different regions of Việt Nam play with various rules:
 * 3 đôi thông có thể chận 1 con Hai (Heo). Nhưng nó không được dùng để ra bài trước ("If a Road of Three Pairs is used to pin down a Pig, it may not be used to automatically start off the game. And vice versa.")
 * 4 đôi thông cũng có thể chận 1 con Hai (Heo). Nhưng phải theo vòng. ("A Road of four Pairs may pin down one Pig.")
 * Vòng chơi mới được bắt đầu khi 3 trong số 4 đấu thủ cho qua. Không được đi tiếp tục hoài cho đến khi hết bài.
 * Khi 4 đôi thông dùng để chận đôi Hai (Heo), đấu thủ không cần phải theo vòng.
 * Thứ tự ra bài sẽ đổi ngược sau mỗi ván bài. Nếu A ra bài trước B ở ván bài này, thì B sẽ ra bài trước A trong ván bài kế tiếp

Game operation (Found all over the instructions page, but I'll just combine them here): Deal each player exactly 13 cards. A player must begin the game with the three of spades. It may be that three by itself, a pair of threes, anything, as long as it contains that speific three. The next player must then follow the same card seqeuence, but with higher cards, or that player may pass their turn. If the player passes, that player may not rejoin the game until a new card sequence starts. If all the other players pass, then you may invoke the rule of Tiến lên, which is to continue the card sequence all by yourself without interruption. Example, if I play a pair of tens and everyone else passes, then I may play down all the pairs I have that are greater than tens. As for suits, the order from lowest to highest is Bích, Chuồn, Rô, Cơ (Spade, Club, Diamond, Heart). In a pair or set of three, the highest suit takes priority. In a numerical sequence of cards, the suit of the final card takes priority. A player wins once they empty their hand, and the other players may contend for 2nd and 3rd place. The next game, the winner must start off unless another player has a road of three pairs. Players with better roads may compete for the right to start the game. If a player wins automatically, then the next game requires the three of spades to startoff. If a player somehow manages to win without any opposition at all, then this is also considered an automatically victory, and the current game ends immediately. 71.135.131.61 05:01, 28 November 2006 (UTC)

While this maybe true, there are variations of this game. However, all of the variations do meet the above standards. In some cases, when a player passes the are not extracted out of the game. They just simply skipped their turn to provoke another player into playing what they wanted. This is what i call good strategy. What makes this game so confusing at times, is the fact that there is only one genuine way to play. However, i play this game very often and the rules are extremely similar to the genuine Tien Len, but not exactly the same. Here in the Unites States, playing this game is actually easier than playing the genuine tradition. It also involves much more strategy. This is why variations are so important. But hey, what can i say? Gooden 06:33, 5 January 2007 (UTC)

Tien Len in the South Bay
I've been playing Tien Len ever since I was 7 years old, gambling for marbles and quarters, to dollars as an adult.

The style played has never changed amongst different groups of people I play with in the Mountain View/San Jose, CA area.

Pretty much most of what's said is true in terms of ranking of hands. I'll go into the special cases of how we play.

Automatic wins

--- Four Deuces --- Six Pairs --- Dragon (3 through 2)

These automatic wins apply if accepted

--- Five pairs in a row --- If you're first to lead, and have four 3's

Deuce Killers --- 3 pairs in a row kills a single deuce --- 4 of a kind kills a single deuce --- 4 of a kind kills 3 pairs in a row --- 4 pairs in a row kills both 3 pairs in a row and 4 of a kind --- 4 pairs in a row can kill a pair of deuces at any time, even if they are not in the round. For example, the lead off plays pair 10's, and you pass. Someone in the same round drops a pair of deuces. If you have 4 pairs in a row, you can kill the pocket deuces, even after you have passed on your turn earlier

This does not apply to single deuce kills, and is a special asset of 4 pairs in a row

I have never played "Lock" before.

It has never mattered whether of all the cards are of the same suit. What matters is the suit of the LAST card in the straight.

Any straight ending with the Ace of Hearts is a lock. That is the only lock in the game.

MickDawg San Jose, CA 18:33, February 9 2007 (UTC)

Viet Cong
I have played a game called "Viet Cong" (VC) for about 8 years, and have looked for information on it several times. This game (Tien Len) is the closest I have seen to the game I know as VC. However, I have noticed a number of differences between the two (If I am mistaken, then this might be an easier way to explain some rules). I am aware that the contents of this are lengthy and not very encyclopedic; my intentions are to get across (as complete as possible) the information on this game, including the feel of the game. It can be played as a chain of games that can be stretched to fit the amount of spare time you have. Here are the crucial details of the game as I know it(when I say "usually", I am probably talking about a custom or tradition of sorts):

Lingo: Finger-A pair in a Tong (similar to a card in a straight) See Tong Game-String of rounds beginning when all players have all of their cards, and ending when only one player has cards left (poor man) Locked Game-The same 4 people play every game (no rotating) Open Game-After a game, the poor man is kicked out, and the next person in line replaces him Pass-To not play during your turn. Once you pass, you are out of the round. Poor Man-The last player with cards at the end of a game; the loser Rich Man-The first player to get rid of his entire hand; the winner Round-A series of plays of a certain type; ends when only one person has not passed Tong-A straight of pairs; each pair is called a "finger" (Minimum 3 fingers) Walk-At the end of a round, the winner can continue to play 1 rank higher than previous play

Setup: One deck, 4 players (3 is acceptable; 2 only if you're desparate; if more than four want to       play, people can rotate out) rank order- 2>A>...>4>3; suit order- &hearts;>&diams;>&clubs;>&spades; (rank first, then suit) Deal out entire deck (Usually people arrange their card to their liking) Player with the 3 of Spades goes first (any type of play they choose)

Play Types: Singles-1 card Doubles- 2-of-a-kind; pair Triples- 3-of-a-kind Quadruples- 4-of-a-kind (Yes, we actually say "Quadruples". Partially to get a reaction             from others, partially to continue the pattern, but mostly because they are so rare) Straights-Sequence of at least 3 cards (In most games, the number of cards in a straight is            set for the round)  2's are allowed in both straights and tongs. Tongs-Sequence of at least 3 fingers(pairs); Only play allowed in any round type; beats everything except a higher tong (longer tongs always beat shorter tongs) (a person                     usually says "Tong" as he plays one)

Round: The player that starts the round decides the round type (and usually calls it out at his            first play that round) Play proceeds clockwise; only play types that fit the round type are allowed (except tongs) Each play must beat the previous play. Either by choice or by force, a player can pass on their turn. They can no longer play during that round, and have to wait until the next round. Once all players except one have passed, the one left is the winner, who begins the next round. Before beginning the next round, the winner can choose to walk, meaning to continue playing on his last play. The rules on walking are as follows: Singles/Doubles/Triples/Quadruples-Play the corresponding play one rank above the last Straights-Add on to the last straight (increasing in rank one-by-one) Provided you have the necessary cards, you can keep walking however long you wish.

End Game: When a player runs out of cards, he is designated the "rich man" (to alert others to his            accomplishment, the player usually calls out "rich man" when he plays his final play) Play continues until only one person has cards left--the poor man. In an open game, this is when the next person in line sit as poor man. If another game will be played, the poor man shuffles the cards, and deals them out. The rich man can either go first, or ask the poor man for one card (specify rank ONLY). If the poor man does not have any cards of the specified rank, the rich man goes first. If the poor man does have a card, he gives it to the rich man (If he has multiples, the poor            man may choose which suit to give away). The rich man then gives the poor man any one of his cards. Then, the poor man goes first. ...And so on and so forth, until it is decided that the game should be ended.

It is the unofficial card game of my BSA Troop (Troop 85, LA). I had always thought someone in the Troop had made it up. Maybe whoever introduced it there was the one that came up with this particular adaption. Now, I am thinking about maybe using the terms "Dragon" for a 3-A Straight, and "Ultimate Dragon" for a 3-2 Straight (no rules would be changed, and I just like dragons). I have tried to include as many of the rules and customs as I know here, and if I remember/find out something, I will update this. I feel that this "Viet Cong" should be added to the list of variants on the page (it isn't different enough to warrant its own page). I am interested to find out if the people in my area (the few here who have actually heard of VC) are the only ones who know of this version. I would like to hear any comments on this variant (Or on my explanation of it; I'm trying to get better at explaining VC to others). Thank you for your time, ryuhayabusa. 74.241.74.253 03:16, 24 March 2007 (UTC)


 * Well, the first thing i'd like to recommend to you is SIGN UP!! Why sit around and be a GUEST of the party when you can become a MEMBER of the fun? Next, i'd like to say that Tien Len has many variations like so many things in this world. However, what this article states are the neutral and general plays of the game. What you read in this article is played just about anywhere. Maybe not everywhere, but it should be familiar to any VC player. Tell me alittle bit more about the version you speak about. I'm curious to know this alternative. If what you say is truthful, we can add it in the article. Gooden 05:40, 25 March 2007 (UTC)


 * I've played with rules similar to these in the Houston area, although the terminology we used is much closer to the article. The card trading mechanic was referred to as "hierarchy" and allowed 1st place to take TWO cards from last place, and 2nd gets one card from 3rd.  Card requests can be as specific or as generic as you want (both of "give me the 3 of spades" and "give me your highest card" are ok), and you can ask for another card if the one you want isn't available.  Obviously, this gives a huge advantage to the rich men.


 * Some other differences we played with are: Consecutive pairs (3 3 4 4 5 5, etc) and Dragons are also considered Bombs, and can be played at any time, even when no 2 has been played. Any bomb can beat another bomb.  Also, we didn't make distinctions between Dragons and Ultimate dragons (not that this really matters, they come up so rarely anyway). 63.102.70.70 00:17, 27 June 2007 (UTC)

Section merge
I have merged the section on "thirteen" variations in the main variant rules discussion, since elsewhere the article says (at least twice) that thirteen and tien len are the same game, and no sources have been provided to suggest otherwise. Left Hawaiian killer as its own section. —  SMcCandlish  &#91;talk&#93; &#91;cont&#93; ‹(-¿-)› 07:53, 24 January 2008 (UTC)

Redundant, to an extreme
About a full 1/3 of this article's text needs to be deleted as redundant blather. It just goes on and on and on, saying the same things over and over and over again. —  SMcCandlish  &#91;talk&#93; &#91;cont&#93; ‹(-¿-)› 07:53, 24 January 2008 (UTC)

Redundancy, Unclear Language, Variations
I edited out redundancy from various sections and corrected some of the awkward english phrasing (there is still about 15% left). I moved numerous "variations" within the main text to the "variations" section at the end. I broke up the combinations section into combinations and special combinations (bombs), including the very confusing and redundant former "Properties of 2s" section. jmk august 2008 —Preceding unsigned comment added by 12.72.118.170 (talk) 16:11, 28 July 2008 (UTC)

Never heard of these "colours" in bombs and runs
I don't know about everywhere else, but in Perth, Australia, There is no "colours" rules for playing bombs and runs, they can be of any colour. In run the highest card in the run is the one who determines whether another run can beat it. Same for bombs, highest card.

124.148.192.170 (talk) 13:16, 27 August 2010 (UTC)

Remove all "variations" and clean up rules
Wikipedia is not a chat room, we should probably remove the variations and heavily clean up the rules. --TyNoOutlet (talk) 14:49, 7 August 2020 (UTC)

This Article is an Embarrassment
Please, just end any 'official' variation list, I grew up playing it as 'Viet Cong', though we almost universally called it VC. We certainly were not frat bros using frat bro rules, and though not identical, was far closer to the 'official' rules than the ones listed. Points were optional, not sure if they were exactly the same, but were mostly used by the 'regulars' (this is high school) who played the game, which involved betting, but would switch to no points and a few stripped rules for 'non-regulars' to accomodate them. I was mostly a non-regular, but I spent enough time watching and a bit playing to get the gist of the 'real' version, which seemed much closer to Tien Len than most descriptions.

We called it Viet Cong, and it seems that based on the talk page, we weren't the only ones to play it in Houston. While none of us were Vietnamese, we still lived on a side of town with one of the largest Viet populations in the US, which probably influenced our rules more than the UT frat bro version posted here. We definitely didn't call people 'shuffle bitches' and insist that they, like, totally admit they were a bitch or else be banished from our VC squad forever, bro (such behavior would have been unwise at an inner-city public school). Point is, all the 'variants' seem like just that, regional variants that splinter and coalesce into likely limitless rules and interpretations. This isn't some place to just post the version YOU played under a given name and call it a 'variant'. There at very least needs to be published rules and reasonable certainty that the published rules reflect the game played under the colloquial variant. Honestly, there should probably be both published rule and SOME form of governing body for any 'variant' to have legitimacy, otherwise it's just House Rules with a different name.

Point is, there is ONE SOURCE for this ENTIRE article, and it only applies to the game's existence and where it's played, with ABSOLUTELY NOT A SINGLE SOURCE FOR THE RULES, much less the myriad of 'variants' posted. This entire article needs to be rewritten, and get the OFFICIAL rules played in China/Vietnam and THEIR most common variants right first, then purge the entire variant page and replace it with 'Informal Western Styles and Names'. I can't speak for ALL the variants, just Viet Cong, since that is what is popular at very least in Houston, and possibly other Texas cities. I don't seem to be unique in noticing this, others Houstonians have posted their experience, terms, and rules, playing a version of Tiến lên that appears to be directly derived from the original, which is not surprising given the demographics. Like another person said, we also said 'quadruples', but we also used 'runs', which seems to be the proper English term. There was no card trading or 'rich man poor man' rules, or any autowin besides Dragons, which was just an auto-win, but they were rare (except for one guy with abnormal luck).

As for the actual Viet Cong entry, I suspect a wealthy, white student from a mixed demographic public school with a large Vietnamese population (almost certainly Bellaire High School) brought it UT, then did frat bros do; turn the game into wankery about shaming the loser as a 'bitch', then upload their experience of the game as the defacto version of the 'Viet Cong' variant. The exact kind of clueless arrogance I'd expect from any 'Big Six' member.

I remember the game well enough, but I couldn't remember the point system we used for the life of me (I really only participated in non-point games). I'm also not arrogant to upload my experience as the 'official' Viet Cong variant even if I did. I honestly wouldn't even call it a variant at all honestly, since the game exists within Houston with both Vietnamese and non-Vietnamese players, and any variant known as 'Viet Cong' is honestly just a game of telephone originating from the official version. Sometimes these splinter variants might even attract a Viet player, who could influence a group of players towards rules closer, or even identical to 'real' Tiến lên. In short, Viet Cong is NOT a house game played at a UT fraternity that spread outwards, but likely the inverse. In reality, it's more or less just the English name for Tiến lên in the Houston area. I can't speak for the other variants, but unless they are formalized, they are nothing more than house rule splinters of Tiến lên.

So yea, this entire article is absolute trash, and I hope someone takes the time to clean it up. It's literally probably THE WORST I have ever seen on Wikipedia, and the world will probably be a better place if the article is purged and left blank. I saw someone mention that they were trying to write a book on the game on a global scale, so hopefully my anecdotal tale (as well as the other Houston VC players) can provide some information, or at least a lead if you are interested in writing about the Houston culture. I'm sure some of the other 'variants' posted here are nothing more than personal experiences for the English name someone gave Tiến lên, which then caught on locally as players interpreted and modified the game into a myriad of informal rule sets, rather than an actual 'variant'.