Talk:Tiergarten (park)

Size
Tempelhofer Park in Berlin is bigger. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 92.225.238.178 (talk) 22:45, 17 December 2013 (UTC)

Requested move 1 January 2015

 * The following is a closed discussion of the proposal. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. No further edits should be made to this section. 

The result of the proposal was no consensus. --BDD (talk) 16:03, 22 January 2015 (UTC)

Großer Tiergarten → Tiergarten – Tiergarten is the most frequently used name for this park in English and is the primary meaning for Tiergarten in English. PBS (talk) 16:53, 1 January 2015 (UTC)


 * Oppose for now due to the competing meaning of Tiergarten, Berlin, the famous city quarter where the park is located. Until this undiscussed move last month, the city quarter page occupied the title of "Tiergarten".  From then, "Tiergarten" was a disambiguation page which the nominator moved to Tiergarten (disambiguation) yesterday.   I am inclined to think that the city quarter is even more notable than the park but I am open to changing my mind if the park can be shown to be the primary topic.  Otherwise, I support a return either the staus quo ante of the past 2½ weeks with "Tiergarten" as a DAB page (but maybe with better disambiguators for the two major Tiergartens such as "(park)" and "(locality)") or the situation from 2003–2014 where "Tiergarten" was about the locality.  .  —  AjaxSmack   18:21, 1 January 2015 (UTC)
 * The "the famous city quarter" the quarter is not famous the park is, in the same way as Central Park in New York or Hyde Park in London, an unqualified reference to the Tiergarten will mean the park not an unban centre named after the park. If this is not so then where are the reliable sources that use an unqualified mention of "the Tiergarten" to mean the district and not the park? -- PBS (talk) 20:34, 1 January 2015 (UTC)
 * On your first point, WP:PRIMARYTOPIC does not mean "more famous"; it means "much more likely than any other topic...to be the topic sought" (my emphasis). On your second, I have no doubt that a search for "the Tiergarten" will yield more results for the park.  English typically uses the definite article for the park and not the quarter.  When seeking a page move, the onus is on you to show that the topic is primary, not on me to disprove it.  For me, the S-bahn station is the primary usage for unqualified "Tiergarten" but that's just OR.  Like I stated above, I will reconsider opposition upon presentation of such evidence. —  AjaxSmack   22:39, 1 January 2015 (UTC)
 * I used "the-Tiergarten" simply because the use of Tiergarten without "the" throws up many German sources in a Google book search. No one is going to write "a Teirgaten district" they are going to write "the Tiergarten district", so I do not think you argument that "English typically uses the definite article for the park and not the quarter." hold water. Can you show this to be true? Your unqualified example for the overground train station is not true for reliable sources, it would only be true for verbal communication which is not a parameter for consideration when naming an article which should be based on usage in reliable English language sources. Even in English verbal communication I doubt that Teirgaten without qualification would be true, as most English speakers would qualify Tiergarten with S-bahn or bahnhof if asking for the station, unless the name was unambiguous such as when on the S-Bahn as in "How many stops to the Teirgaten?". The result from the Google book search clearly shows that the primary usage for the Tiergarten is the park. Do you have any evidence to bring to the discussion that an unqualified use of Tiergarten in English usually refers to anything but the park? Like the discussion at Talk:Reichstag building I think you are thinking of German usage and transferring that into English, and not usage in reliable English language sources. -- PBS (talk) 01:52, 3 January 2015 (UTC)
 * Hmmm...I had forgotten about the Reichstag RM. But, as in that case, my opposition is not based on German-language usage (Tiergarten unqualified could hardly refer to the park or the locality in German) or on Großer Tiergarten not being the most important meaning of "Tiergarten" in English.  It probably is.  But after a review of only resources, I just don't find it is the primary topic (a higher threshold of relative notability) for the word.  I continue to back my comment about article usage.  If you drop the article and use a phrase like "in Tiergarten" in Google Books you get far more mixed usage with quotes like "The major draw in Tiergarten is the park itself", "the Reichstag, the must-see prize in Tiergarten", "one of the quarters along the Berlin Wall in Tiergarten", "Turkish immigrants amounted...7.9 percent in Tiergarten", &c. —  AjaxSmack   05:12, 4 January 2015 (UTC)


 * Support but I think a better title may actually be Tiergarten Park as per WP:NATURAL Red Slash 23:13, 2 January 2015 (UTC)
 * Natural does not apply because the park is the primary meaning and unlike Central Park or Hyde Park in London the sources tend to use Tiergarten as the name without appending Park. -- PBS (talk) 01:52, 3 January 2015 (UTC)


 * Comment: It might be nice to find some way to avoid the "ß" in the title. That's a character not found in the English alphabet, and not merely a diacritic. I suspect there are lots of English-speaking people who have no idea know how to pronounce it. (See also WP:ß.) —BarrelProof (talk) 02:15, 3 January 2015 (UTC)


 * Support. The proposed form is clearly an improvement, whatever the primary topic turns out to be. We only have two days of worth of page view statistics to go by at this point. If this subject turns out not to be primary, we can move it to Tiergarten Park, per Red Slash. 03:17, 3 January 2015 (UTC) — Preceding unsigned comment added by NotUnusual (talk • contribs)


 * Oppose Tiergarten should be (remain?) a dab page. A look at Google Books shows that the park does not pass the 60-70% of all usage in English for "Tiergarten" required to qualify as a WP:PRIMARYTOPIC. In ictu oculi (talk) 23:50, 3 January 2015 (UTC)
 * What google book search did you use to come to this conclusion? --PBS (talk) 13:44, 4 January 2015 (UTC)
 * Agree that the DAB should be restored if this RM closes as not moved, see below. Andrewa (talk) 16:22, 10 January 2015 (UTC)
 * I think you are confused the link you present as a page only existed for four days before that it was a different article now at Tiergarten (Berlin). So to use the term "the DAB should be restored" is not a fair refleftion of the page's current history.-- PBS (talk) 10:18, 12 January 2015 (UTC)
 * Comment to recap a Google book search of "the Tiergarten" returns "about 26,060 results" but actually returns about 700 book all in English in which the vast majority seem to be about the park, (About 150 of the books are qualified: about 50 of them are "the Tiergarten quarter", and about 90 of them are "the Tiergarten district", and 90 "the Tiergarten park". An unknown quantity will be ambiguous, or to another meaning, but it seems that there are 100s of books where an unqualified "the Tiergarten" refer to the park. @AjaxSmack your search on ["in-Tiergarten"] was a good idea. I had a look at the results which as "About 6,000 results" but returns about 300 books of which about 100 are German. Like "the-Tiergarten" many are qualified usage (169 of those are for the phrase "in Tiergarten Park" another six are for "in-Tiergarten district" one for "in-Tiergarten quarter"). This means that of the 300 book 100 are in German (leaving 200), 176 are for qualified usage (leaving 24 unqualified). Of these 24 some are ambiguous eg: "President Lyndon B. Johnson were read to the rally in Tiergarten" that particular one on analysis turns out to be a reference to the 1 May rally in the Tiergarten organised by the German trade unions attended by 400,000 Berliners. So I think that we can probably put that search to one side as the number of books involved is probably not even a score. So an unqualified use of Tiergarten is more common that a qualified usage in English, and by far the most common unqualified usage is for the park. -- PBS (talk) 13:44, 4 January 2015 (UTC)


 * Oppose for now, a case for primary meaning has not been made despite and  pointing out the correct criteria above. Tiergarten Park seems a possible  alternative as proposed above, assuming the primary meaning rationale doesn't fly eventually (it still might with some cool reflection and sorting out the relevant material from the dross above). Note the undiscussed and obviously controversial move of the DAB,  which should be reversed if this RM closes as not moved. Andrewa (talk) 16:22, 10 January 2015 (UTC)
 * What is your evidence that the primary meaning is not the park? -- PBS (talk) 10:02, 12 January 2015 (UTC)
 * The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the proposal. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

Requested move 19 March 2015

 * The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review. No further edits should be made to this section. 

The result of the move request was: MOVED to Tiergarten (park), per consensus. Hadal (talk) 00:26, 24 April 2015 (UTC)

Großer Tiergarten → Grosser Tiergarten – It might be nice to find some way to avoid the "ß" in the title. That's a character not found in the English alphabet, and not merely a diacritic. I suspect there are lots of English-speaking people who have no idea know how to pronounce it. I wouldn't submit this but for the recent successful RM at Talk:Uwe Dassler. There was no direct response to a prior comment about undesirability of the "ß" during the previous RM discussion for this page. (See also WP:ß.) —BarrelProof (talk) 05:22, 19 March 2015 (UTC)


 * How about Tiergarten (park)? It's not a natural disambiguator but it's more intuitive than Großer or Grosser, neither of which are used much in English sources.  —  AjaxSmack   02:02, 20 March 2015 (UTC)
 * Weak oppose - If we can't establish an agreement about 'ß', perhaps I must oppose this proposal. Also, I oppose a removal of "Großer" in favor of "(park)". --George Ho (talk) 17:55, 22 March 2015 (UTC)
 * Support the eszett is a character that is not present in all varieties of German, therefore is a superfluous character in German. -- 65.94.43.89 (talk) 05:25, 24 March 2015 (UTC)
 * I would prefer just "Tiergarten" as that is the usual name in English (as shown above) but as a interim step I support User:AjaxSmack's proposal of "Tiergarten (park)" as "Großer or Grosser, neither of which are used much in English sources." -- PBS (talk) 23:08, 15 April 2015 (UTC)
 * Tiergarten (park) also seems OK with me. It accomplishes the basic goal that I had (avoiding the "ß"). —BarrelProof (talk) 23:29, 15 April 2015 (UTC)
 * Support almost literally any move including the proposed one or the (park) one. Red Slash 00:48, 16 April 2015 (UTC)
 * I would also be OK with "Tiergarten Park" / "Tiergarten park", per your previous suggestion. —BarrelProof (talk) 19:25, 17 April 2015 (UTC)
 * Support move. I'd suggest "Tiergarten", which is currently a redirect to "Großer Tiergarten".-Ich (talk) 15:35, 17 April 2015 (UTC)
 * Now it leads to a dab page. —BarrelProof (talk) 04:16, 20 April 2015 (UTC)
 * Support move, my fist choice would be Tiergarten (park) which seems to already have some consensus above, but I don't oppose the other proposed targets. Cavarrone 05:11, 22 April 2015 (UTC)


 * The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page or in a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.

Category and/or navbox for Tiergarten?
There are several Wikipedia articles related the park. Would the project benefit from a category and/or navbox to display these related articles? (Tiergarten (park), Berlin Zoological Garden, Aquarium Berlin, Straße des 17. Juni, Großer Stern, Berlin Victory Column, Carillon in Berlin-Tiergarten, etc., not to mention cultural references such as Tiergarten (song) and Tiergarten (EP).) --- Another Believer ( Talk ) 23:43, 21 May 2015 (UTC)
 * I created Category:Tiergarten (park). --- Another Believer ( Talk ) 16:04, 11 September 2016 (UTC)

Circumstances of the Park's founding
I looked at the archived copy of the berlin.de page (dead link) for the park (currently reference #1), and it doesn't match the history of the park as written on the page. Here's the full text of the archived page:
 * "The Tiergarten Park owes its name to a deer-forest founded in the 17th century outside the city to serve as hunting ground for the Elector of Brandenburg. It was not a planned garden but consisted of original forest. In the 19th century it was re-shaped to its present form by the famous garden architect Peter Joseph Lenné (1789-1866). In the course of time, much of the Tiergarten fell victim to the ever-growing city but it still is the world’s largest inner-city park."

The berlin.de site currently has another page for the Tiergarten neighborhood, which mostly focuses on the park. What I propose to do is consider this page authoritative and edit accordingly. —Boruch Baum (talk) 08:31, 11 October 2015 (UTC) It could be that the information on the page comes from here: http://www.stadtentwicklung.berlin.de/berlin_tipps/grosser_tiergarten/index_en.shtml The German version was listed as an external link, not as a reference. It, in turn, refers to another website for historical information on the park: http://edith.senstadt.verwalt-berlin.de/berlin_tipps/grosser_tiergarten/en/geschichte/index.shtml However, my browser claims it can't find the server for that website, and the wayback machine does not have the page archived. The German version of the page is no help; it too, is not sourced. —Boruch Baum (talk) 09:50, 11 October 2015 (UTC)