Talk:Tiffany Young/Archive 1

Article title
Some Girls' Generation members have their full names as article title like Kwon Yuri, Jessica Jung, and Im Yoona, but most have their stage name like Taeyeon, Sunny (Korean singer), Tiffany, etc. I think someone should assimilate the article titles. --Dr. Crisp (talk) 10:59, 4 June 2010 (UTC)

Birth place
There seems to be some controversy over her birth place. Some sites say LA while others say San Francisco. There isn't an official SM site that I can find to source, but Jessica says in Win Win interview 100420 that they were born in the same hospital. Given that there's no controversy over her birth place, San Francisco seems to be Tiffany's birth place while she was raised in Diamond Bar, Los Angeles. Hope that helps future editors until an official source can be found. Evaders99 (talk) 06:37, 6 July 2011 (UTC)
 * I don't see a reliable source for the birthplace of Jessica, either (unless it is in one of the references in Korean). The birthplace should probably be removed until a reference for the location is found. 72Dino (talk) 20:32, 6 July 2011 (UTC)
 * I considered that too - a lot of the Kpop biographies are unsourced for such facts. If only SM would put up a better profile on their own site. But you know as soon as it gets removed, a fan will add it back. Didn't seem worth the effort :) Evaders99 (talk) 06:00, 7 July 2011 (UTC)

She's American. So why does it say she's a South Korean singer? 166.137.100.24 (talk) —Preceding undated comment added 14:25, 29 September 2012 (UTC)

Requested move

 * The following discussion is an archived discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. No further edits should be made to this section. 

The result of the move request was: not moved. Might be moveable to "Stephanie Hwang" or "Hwang Mi-young". -- JHunterJ (talk) 20:54, 22 June 2012 (UTC)

Tiffany (South Korean singer) → Tiffany Hwang – per what I have said at Talk:Jessica_(entertainer) Morning Sunshine (talk) 01:46, 15 June 2012 (UTC)

Survey

 * Unlike Jessica, the name Tiffany is 100% stage name. It is not her real name or any piece of her name, Stephanie Hwang or Hwang Mi-young (Korean name). I believe WP:STAGENAME applies here. 02:03, 15 June 2012 (UTC)


 * Oppose. A stage name shouldn't be joined to a real name, see KBS. On another note, it would be nice if "South" could be removed from the disambiguator. It injects politics where it doesn't belong. She sings K-pop, not "SK-pop" or "ROK-pop". Kauffner (talk) 12:08, 15 June 2012 (UTC)
 * The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

South Korean or Korean American singer
Isn't Tiffany American? Why does the article name her as a South Korean singer? Considering this is a Wikipedia's page, should we change it to something more accurate such as Korean American or something like that? Just a thought.--TerryAlex (talk) 22:11, 10 September 2014 (UTC)
 * The disambiguating policy doesn't give clear guidance, but Wikipedia prefers not to mention their nationality but rather their notability (as in occupation). I would read it as Tiffany, the singer promoting in South Korea. Since there is already a Tiffany (American singer) and this Tiffany is not notable in the US music scene, "South Korean singer" or "singer in South Korea" seems a likely disambiguation. Evaders99 (talk) 01:37, 11 September 2014 (UTC)
 * I agree it's more that she is singing in the South Korea market, much like Melody and Utada are Japanese singers even though they were born in the US. I'm quite surprised she is rated Mid importance in WP Korea though. -AngusWOOF (talk) 02:11, 11 September 2014 (UTC)
 * I see. I was just wondering why.--TerryAlex (talk) 03:17, 11 September 2014 (UTC)
 * I bumped Tiffany back to Low importance. It's ridiculous to assume she's at the same level of notability as Psy for WP Korea. -AngusWOOF (talk) 03:54, 11 September 2014 (UTC)
 * Where do we get the stats to rate its importance?--TerryAlex (talk) 04:05, 11 September 2014 (UTC)
 * All the other members of Girls' Generation are rated as Mid-importance; excuse me and I don't think it is "ridiculous to assume she's at the same level of notability as Psy". AngusWOOF Would you like to go and "bump" all the other members to Low-importance or would you simply like to raise Tiffany to Mid-importance?-- GeT RiGhT (talk) 05:38, 31 March 2015 (UTC)
 * I'll pass it over to WP:KOREA. I can't tell that those members have that much notability. They would be Mid if the project were K-Pop instead of the entire country. -AngusWOOF (talk) 13:50, 31 March 2015 (UTC)

Not a celebrity magazine
Wikipedia is an encyclopedia, not a celebrity gossip magazine. Encyclopedias can and do cover a subject's serious relationships (long term, engagements, marriages, etc.). They don't document the subject's entire dating history. --Neil N  talk to me 02:51, 14 December 2014 (UTC)
 * I don't like putting dating news on Wikipedia either, but I think other editors might disagree. Similar info (dating news) can be found across multiple Kpop articles. I wouldn't mind to see all of them be taken out.--TerryAlex (talk) 02:57, 14 December 2014 (UTC)
 * If the relationships are just celebrity fodder, yes (this article just happens to be on my watchlist). What serious biography is going to document who dated whom? We should only add such info if reliable sources note a significant impact on the subject's life but I realize I may be fighting a losing battle here. --Neil N  talk to me 03:07, 14 December 2014 (UTC)
 * Considering the general attitude towards idols in relationships (especially female idols) and the fact she's dating another celebrity I'd say the relationships is a serious deal. On top of that, it's pretty much the only reliably sourced info we have on her personal life. If we are ever able to expand the section with more info we might be able to drop it but until then it's relevant to the article. DragonFury (talk) 11:50, 14 December 2014 (UTC)
 * As I expected, fandom trumps having encyclopedic content. --Neil N  talk to me 13:22, 14 December 2014 (UTC)


 * A lot of the info pertaining to her family and health should be reorganized into the Personal life section so that the bulk of the biography focuses on what she did during her career. The way it is now it sounds like her main notability is participating sporadically in the girl group. I agree the dating line can be removed or commented out until the relationship becomes more serious. -AngusWOOF (talk) 15:46, 14 December 2014 (UTC)
 * As noted, the note about the dating is sourced. I think there are bigger issues to focus on than that one line to clean up. -AngusWOOF (talk) 16:09, 14 December 2014 (UTC)

Reorganize career section
The Biography / Career section should be reorganized chronologically. The hosting and participating in variety shows and dramas as well as subunits are related to Girls Generation activities. It should focus on her roles rather than the group's activity. It doesn't need all the level-2 sections. -AngusWOOF (talk) 15:59, 14 December 2014 (UTC)
 * How would you reorganize it? Because I have a hard time not knowing how to put them in a way that would make the whole article succinct. I agree with improving the article and adding more content related to her roles.--TerryAlex (talk) 16:13, 14 December 2014 (UTC)


 * If you still want to group her activity by genre (television hosting, variety shows, dramas), that's fine, just put them in paragraphs under her career. Bono's article has a career subsection for U2 and then a collaborations subsection. Mel B has a Spice Girls section, although she had a long career outside of that.  Hyuna was organized around her solo music career although all the 1-2 line paragraphs on her article are rather annoying. Russell Crowe's career section just highlights his major works and participations. It does have a musician subsection. -AngusWOOF (talk) 16:33, 14 December 2014 (UTC)


 * I went ahead and removed the subsections and grouped the acting / television stuff together. -AngusWOOF (talk) 16:42, 14 December 2014 (UTC)
 * Thanks, I think the problem is there is not a lot of content focused on her roles, if we are to improve and add more content, then the article can eventually be re-written in a timeline format.--TerryAlex (talk) 16:49, 14 December 2014 (UTC)

Requested move 7 June 2015

 * The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review. No further edits should be made to this section. 

The result of the move request was: Move to Tiffany Hwang. We have a rough consensus that the article should be moved, and this is the option that received the most support. Cúchullain t/ c 19:22, 18 June 2015 (UTC)

Tiffany (South Korean singer) → Tiffany (Girls' Generation) – The (South Korean singer) is not right. Tiffany is an American singer who is based in South Korea. The page title could also not be moved to Tiffany Hwang because her birth name is Stephanie rather than Tiffany. Simon (talk) 08:29, 7 June 2015 (UTC)
 * Oppose, unless it could be shown that there is another notable Korean singer called "Tiffany". She has also worked outside Girls' Generation and not always inside this girl group. It appears she is ethnic Korean and a resident of South Korea (but correct me if I'm wrong). + Suggest move to "Tiffany (Korean singer)" per WP:CONCISE. The word "South" is redundant in the title. Khestwol (talk) 09:46, 7 June 2015 (UTC)
 * She is actually an American because she was born in America. Your point does not apply here. Furthermore, she is best known for her work with Girls' Generation and the title Tiffany (Girls' Generation) is quite appropriate. Simon (talk) 10:34, 7 June 2015 (UTC)
 * Do you have any comments about this RM? Simon (talk) 10:34, 7 June 2015 (UTC)
 * But she is also Korean. Anyway since there seems to be a dispute over choosing an appropriate parenthetical disambiguator, we might have a better solution here: Suggest move to "Tiffany Hwang". "Hwang" is her family name, and a WP:NATURAL disambiguator. "Tiffany Hwang" gets about 520,000 results in Google search, so in my opinion it is common enough. "Tiffany Hwang" is also more WP:CONCISE. Her Twitter account also uses "Tiffany Hwang". Khestwol (talk) 10:41, 7 June 2015 (UTC)
 * Strong Support move to "Tiffany Hwang" per WP:NATURAL, per WP:CONCISE, and her Twitter account. Khestwol (talk) 05:08, 10 June 2015 (UTC)
 * The only issue with Tiffany Hwang is that it combines her stage name to her last name, which isn't really allowed according to WP:NCP. Look what happened to Krystal Jung. We had thought that Krystal was her real name but it turned out to be her stagename and not her real name of Chrystal. Wouldn't renaming to Stephanie Hwang or Hwang Mi-young be a better choice until further notice?!? Tibbydibby (talk) 17:58, 10 June 2015 (UTC)
 * Comment The issue with using her real name is Tiffany has never been known professionally as Stephanie Hwang nor Hwang Mi-young. According to WP:NCP, The name used most often to refer to a person in reliable sources is generally the one that should be used as the article title, even if it is not their "real" name... I'm very undecided on what name the article should be moved to, but what I find interesting is the name "Tiffany Hwang" did appeared in a couple of sources, 1 2 and she's obviously also known informally by the fans by that name. Professionally though, she should always be known as Girls' Generation's Tiffany.--TerryAlex (talk) 18:30, 10 June 2015 (UTC)
 * If this is her real twitter account then I see nothing wrong with Tiffany Hwang. If not, then Tiffany (Girls' Generation) is also a viable option, but her real names should not be used per TerryAlex above. Timmyshin (talk) 20:50, 10 June 2015 (UTC)


 * Support move to Tiffany Hwang per Khestwol. Whether she was born Stephanie or not is irrelevant, WIKI rule is to use most common name not birth name. Timmyshin (talk) 18:43, 7 June 2015 (UTC)
 * Oppose I'm opposing all moves - she is a singer notable in South Korea. Even if we drop the South, it doesn't make much sense because she isn't notable in North Korea. :) Also "Tiffany Hwang" is just wrong. As HĐ stated, her birth name is Stephanie - her stage name Tiffany should not be combined with her last name in such a fashion (see previous move request per this page). Evaders99 (talk) 22:43, 7 June 2015 (UTC)
 * Tiffany's being notable in South Korea has nothing to do with her nationality. She is of American nationality and her ethnicity is Korean American, thus it should be move to either Tiffany (Girls' Generation) or Tiffany Hwang to avoid misconception. Simon (talk) 02:28, 8 June 2015 (UTC)
 * I will say that WP:MOSBIO implies that ethnicity or nationality should not be emphasized unless they apply directly to their notability. She is notable in South Korea and happens also to be Korean ethnicity. So the current title is fine, it is not incorrect to say she's a singer in South Korea. Her nationality doesn't apply any notability, so no one should assume she's a South Korean citizen. Evaders99 (talk) 02:38, 11 June 2015 (UTC)
 * The current title says the other way. Simon (talk) 06:49, 12 June 2015 (UTC)


 * Oppose all moves or Suggest Move to Stephanie Hwang, Stephanie Young Hwang or Hwang Mi-young. I still can't really decide on the best course of action, either leave the title as is, or have an admin use his/her discretion on what to do. But definitely best to give this another week for further discussion and decide based on a larger amount of editors. Tibbydibby (talk) 22:21, 9 June 2015 (UTC)
 * After a bit of consideration, I think the move to her real name, Stephanie Hwang, or her Korean name Hwang Mi-young, or even her full name of Stephanie Young Hwang would be more ideal in my personal opinion. I know she isn't commonly known with her real name but that's what her real name is per WP:NCP. So it's best to give it her real name until a better description of her stagename, Tiffany, can be found to rename this page. Tibbydibby (talk) 17:53, 10 June 2015 (UTC)


 * Comment. Since I was asked, I'll say I thought a move might be appropriate since Tiffany is American, and not a South Korean citizen. However, none of the options presented thus far are ideal, so I'm leaning toward opposing any move unless a better option can be found. Random86 (talk) 05:34, 10 June 2015 (UTC)
 * I'm starting to think Tiffany Hwang might be a good idea, since she uses that name herself on Twitter. RS also occasionally use it. Here's one from Dong-a Ilbo: . Any form of Stephanie Hwang will not work because she is known as Tiffany, not Stephanie. Random86 (talk) 21:37, 10 June 2015 (UTC)


 * Oppose to all moves. Let's me just run through the options here: Tiffany (Girls' Generation) is lacking because a significant body of her work is outside of the group. Any use of Stephanie or Mi-Young is lacking because she has almost never used those names as part of her public identity. Tiffany Hwang mixes her stage name with her real name which is I gather from other opinions on here is against Wikipedia policy. Tiffany (South Korean singer) is far from ideal but it's the one that best summarizes the subject article. DragonFury (talk) 00:08, 12 June 2015 (UTC)
 * Oppose. For the reasons stated above, the current title is the best option. Rreagan007 (talk) 01:34, 12 June 2015 (UTC)
 * Strong support move to Tiffany Hwang. Tiffany is not a Korean at all + her nationality is American + she identifies herself as "Tiffany Hwang" on social websites. — Simon (talk) 06:42, 12 June 2015 (UTC)
 * Comment - Unfortunately, this twitter may be fan-run because there isn't a "Verified" sign. Besides, Seohyun and Sunny follow each other on Twitter, but isn't following that particular Tiffany on Twitter. But both follow the real Tiffany (as verified) on Instagram. So I question its validity. The current title is definitely the best option for the stagename "Tiffany" per argument by Evaders99 but I prefer the more precise name of Stephanie Hwang or Hwang Mi-young, as it's her real name, follows Wikipedia policies, and SONE knows her real name anyway. Even her verified Instagram profile refers to her real name, not "Tiffany Hwang". Tibbydibby (talk) 21:18, 12 June 2015 (UTC)
 * Thanks for pointing out the Twitter account is not verified. Someone on Reddit said it's a roleplayer account. Random86 (talk) 07:44, 13 June 2015 (UTC)
 * Though the Twitter account can be fake, but that is to show how common the name "Tiffany Hwang" is--Terry (talk) 15:43, 13 June 2015 (UTC)


 * Move to Tiffany Hwang per WP:NATURAL. Also, WP:NCP allows surnames that are "fairly often used" for people using single names, like Tiffany. Much shorter to type than the present title. --George Ho (talk) 10:16, 12 June 2015 (UTC)
 * Comment I'm now also leaning towards Tiffany Hwang per reasons stated above. In Tiffany's case, I think Tiffany Hwang will work and it's a better option compared to the current title.--TerryAlex (talk) 16:16, 12 June 2015 (UTC)


 * The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page or in a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.

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Removal of dating news
I started a discussion about this topic here. Please help to discuss. Thank you.--TerryAlex (talk) 14:32, 19 January 2017 (UTC)

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"Tiffany (South Korean singer)" listed at Redirects for discussion
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"Tiffany (korean singer)" listed at Redirects for discussion
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Semi-protected edit request on 9 February 2023
Please change “Stephanie Young Hwang (born August 1, 1989), known professionally as Tiffany or Tiffany Young,[3] is an American singer-songwriter.” To “Stephanie Young Hwang (born August 1, 1989), known professionally as Tiffany or Tiffany Young,[3] is a Korean-American singer-songwriter.” Maincoonkitten44 (talk) 03:48, 9 February 2023 (UTC)
 * Red information icon with gradient background.svg Not done for now: please establish a consensus for this alteration before using the template.  Liliana UwU  (talk / contributions) 05:23, 9 February 2023 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 21 February 2023
Change "American" to "Korean-American". Tiffany identifies as Korean-American and is a Korean artist in the girl group Girls' Generation. 97.94.107.13 (talk) 20:18, 21 February 2023 (UTC)


 * There is no consensus for this change today. See above discussion. Evaders99 (talk) 21:34, 21 February 2023 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 28 February 2023
change "American" to "Korean-American". tifanny was born in california to south korean parents. she is not only american, she is ethnically korean and that should not be erased. 187.20.160.140 (talk) 16:28, 28 February 2023 (UTC)
 * Red information icon with gradient background.svg Not done: per MOS:CONTEXTBIO, please provide reliable sources that support the relevance of her ethnicity to her notability. M.Bitton (talk) 16:32, 28 February 2023 (UTC)

American vs Korean-American?
So there's two IPs and one new editor insisting on making the page say "Korean-American" instead of "American" despite some indication not to do that (including a hidden comment). What's all that about? Liliana UwU (talk / contributions) 03:28, 9 February 2023 (UTC)
 * My memory's a little hazy on how we handle these things, but the one thing I do know for certain is that she not Korean-American, that description implies she holds dual citizenship, which we have no reliable source for. The description Korean American is also not acceptable to me since it still implies dual citizenship, dropping a hyphen like the editor has done now. Personally I prefer the old version, which lists her as American and leaves her Korean heritage to be mentioned in the main body. If pushed I might compromise to "American singer of Korean descent" but that is not ideal at all.DragonFury (talk) 08:23, 9 February 2023 (UTC)
 * She is korean-american not just American 328Oops (talk) 09:28, 9 February 2023 (UTC)
 * This is contradictory to the wikipedia page on Korean Americans, which uses it as: "Korean Americans are Americans of Korean ancestry". This use is consistent with the use on koreans site on wikipedia too. We should use this term and link to the page. If you link to the page it no longer imples dual citizenship, since the page it linkes to refrecenes the apropriate definition. This will avoid confusion and solves the problem. Generationgaram (talk) 15:05, 9 February 2023 (UTC)
 * Echoing same thoughts as DragonFury. Using/Adding "Korean–American" here will goes against MOS:DUALNATIONALITIES of which, to my knowledge she doesn't hold South Korean passport or has been seen in public (like airports) photographed to be holding one, I had only seen her photographed holding US passport before. The word/term "Korean-American" was sneakily added in January 2023 via this diff by IP despite the hidden note and pending changes protection of which also noting that 3000+ revisions prior dating back to September 2011 (which is 12 years ago) doesn't use the word/term "Korean-American" in which this sentence "... an American singer ..." has remains intact since then with the only differences between now and then is the inclusion of "based in South Korea" after "an American singer" which was removed by one idiot IP via this diff with the most ridiculous edit summary ever, of which I'm not exactly sure why this wasn't red flagged at that point of removal. I would suggest either following DragonFury suggestion of "Amercian singer of Korean descent" but we will need to add back the "singer-songwriter" portion or my suggestion to restore back the previous wording of "an American singer-songwriter based in South Korea" however do note that we're repeating the same thing (South Korea) again in the next sentence unless we copyedit that sentence.  — Paper9oll  (🔔 • 📝)  15:43, 9 February 2023 (UTC)
 * Being Korean American is an integral part of Tiffany's identity both as a singer and as an individual as stated by herself multiple times throughout her career, which has been acknowledged by sources such as MTV, NME and H&M Group (which she was an ambassador of). As Generationgaram pointed out, it also matches the definition given by the article on Korean Americans, which states that "Korean Americans are Americans of Korean ancestry" - Tiffany was born in the United States to Korean parents, which I think everyone is well aware of. This isn't a matter of nationality pure and simple, but of respecting one's identity, ethnicity and heritage instead of erasing it. Vowlenhart (talk) 17:14, 9 February 2023 (UTC)
 * I don't think the discussion is on the hypenated version anymore. Even tho many wikipedia pages use the hypenated version to refer to people who do not have dual citicenship. See:Jessica Jung List of songs written and produced by Bang Chan Derek Kirk Kim and to refer to people who do have dual citizenship, see:Rosé (singer) Krystal Jung
 * (If we want to maintain consistency, we should edit their sites too so there is a distinction)
 * I think the discussion now is whether to use "Korean American" with the link to the page defining that a Korean American is an American of Korean descent. like: Jae Lee
 * or "based in south Korea" like: AleXa Mark Lee (singer)
 * or " American (xx) of south Korean decent" written out.
 * Is the narrow definition of nationality something that is exclusive to the English Wikipedia page? She is referred to as a second generation korean-american or just korean-american in most of the other pages. (korean, japanese, chinese, french, dutch.) I only found the Russian and english page not using this, and the russian page said american singer active in korea.
 * I am fine with not having korean american in the lead, but there is no part of her page that says she is korean american. We should at least then start the "life and career" with:
 * Tiffany Young was born on August 1989, 8, in San Francisco, California, USA, as a second-generation Korean American. (or something like that)
 * I think completely erasing her Korean side when she has on multiple occasions said how difficult this was for her would be a misstep, particularly since there are other Korean Americans without dual citizenship who are referred to as Korean American on their pages. She is also referred to by media as a Korean American singer, so we should strive to keep the page consistent with how she, and others describe her. Generationgaram (talk) 18:46, 9 February 2023 (UTC)
 * How about "Korean singer-songwriter of American nationality"? Or "American-born Korean singer". Otherwise I would support changing it to "American singer of Korean ethnicity/ancestry" to try to reduce the amount of edits caused by this confusion. Solemn Penance (talk) 17:50, 9 February 2023 (UTC)
 * To me, "American-born Korean singer" flows the best, and is factually true (she is, after all, a Kpop singer born in the USA). Liliana UwU  (talk / contributions) 22:32, 9 February 2023 (UTC)
 * Identity, ethnicity and heritage are all matters that should be described in the main body of the article, the lead should contain the nationality, and only the nationality. The article on Korean Americans concerns the ethnicity, not the nationality. Just to further my point; people like Randall Park, Michelle Steel, Juju Chang, and Andy Kim are all mentioned explicitly in that article, and all have a lead that describes them as American. Contrast this with Jay Kim, who was born in Korea and thus holds Korean citizenship, he is described in the lead as Korean-American having presumably acquired American citizenship sometime before the start of his political career.DragonFury (talk) 17:37, 9 February 2023 (UTC)
 * It does say:
 * - Context (location, nationality, etc.) for the activities that made the person notable.
 * I'm new so can you please send me the link to were it says that the lead can only have the persons nationality?
 * The term Korean american refers to an american national with korean decent/ethnicity. Not just to ethnicity.
 * In the page you mentioned (jay kim) both korean-american and korean american is used in the lead. The first one, which is hypenated link to the page for korea and the second the page for america. To illustrate nationality. The second time it is used to outline one of his accomplishments "korean american" is used (while linking to the site we suggested). He was elected in 1992, before SK allowed dual citizenships - which means he only had an american citizenship at the time. Which is why both terms are being used.
 * The page you provided is a good example of how we can include both nationality and ethnicity in the lead. Generationgaram (talk) 19:40, 9 February 2023 (UTC)
 * So I've been going through some of the pages mentioned here and it seems to be a bit of an inconsistent mess, and going through the talk pages I see this is not the first time this discussion has been had, not the first time I've been involved in a discussion such as this. Just as example: This article uses "American" in the lead, as do most of the articles I've linked earlier. Krystal Jung uses "Korean-American" but Paper9oll mentions in the talk page that she's been seen using a Korean passport in photos, so that checks out. Then there is the page on her sister: Jessica Jung which used "South Korean-American" which is just patently wrong and which I've corrected (see my recent edit on that page). But then we get into some weirdness: Rosé has her lead as "a Korean-New Zealand singer and dancer based in South Korea", in AleXa's article the lead has "an American singer based in South Korea", and Jeon Somi includes the phrase "a Korean and Canadian singer, rapper and dancer" even though there is a reliable source that states she has three nationalities (Canadian by birth, Korean through her mother, Dutch through her father). Furthermore, reading up on Korean nationality law, it currently automatically grants Korean citizenship to anyone with a Korean parent, regardless of where they were born. But before 1998 it only did so if the father was Korean, and people with a Korean mother had to apply for it separately. In all, it's an unholy mess. DragonFury (talk) 20:20, 9 February 2023 (UTC)
 * Since there's no consensus on the lead for K-pop singers born outside of Korea, I think it's best to have it as "a Korean American singer-songwriter" since that article covers both her nationality and ethnicity. This also won't break MOS:DUALNATIONALITIES. Solemn Penance (talk) 22:26, 9 February 2023 (UTC)
 * Jessica and Krystal boths has South Korean passport so it's correct to write as "Korean-American". For Jessica one, if my memory is correct, some random dude came and said South Korean is more precise because North Korea exists lol, that random dude also went around a lot of articles changing it to "Korean-American" to "South Korean-American". For Rose one, there is this hidden comment "Maintain Korean-New Zealand nationality in lead as per WP:MOS guidelines and South Korean nationality law. She was born in New Zealand and grew up in Australia, but holds a Korean passport as supported by many official articles. South Korea and New Zealand both allow their citizens to hold dual nationality" of which I couldn't find any archived discussion so I guess this was discussed elsewhere in some other Blackpink-related articles. For Jeon Somi, it does seem to point to Talk:Jeon Somi.  — Paper9oll  (🔔 • 📝)  02:41, 10 February 2023 (UTC)
 * @Solemn Penance Normal discussion are suppose to run for more than 3 days or longer, for RfC that's a month, depending on the severity of the topic, don't hastily come to a conclusion just after 18 hours, let the process run its course.  — Paper9oll  (🔔 • 📝)  02:45, 10 February 2023 (UTC)
 * @Solemn Penance I agree. There is obviously no consensus on this because I have been looking through a bunch of wikipedia articles for ethnically korean kpop idols born outside of Korea and some of them make a point to reference the idols korean heritage in some way. Whether by using Korean-American, American born Korean, American of Korean descent, American singer based in South Korea etc. Or just at least mentioning they are of south korean descent in the Life and Career body. Here are some example pages with the different varieties, Jae Park, Ailee, BM, Krystal Jung, Sunny, Jay Park I also found pages with Thai-American, Taiwanese-American as descriptors for idols who are not korean. Tiffany's article should lead with something similar since the introductory portion of it does a bad job at informing people that she is korean outside of mentioning SM entertainment being a company based in korea and that she moved to korea to sign with them. That is why I also added "She lived with her family, including her grandparents, who alongside her mother contributed to a mix in Korean and American culture in the household". To at least give more context of her heritage. Not really understanding why using Korean American for her is opposed but allowed for others. Especially when that phrase is not referring to dual nationality as the linked article can clarify.  Divineo1 (talk) 04:26, 12 February 2023 (UTC)

Just to re-iterate, because I think it got lost in the conversation: I have no objection to including her Korean descent/heritage in the opening paragraph. Ideally, I'd like for a reader with absolutely no prior knowledge of the subject to learn why an American singer is working in the Korean entertainment industry. What I do object to is the use of "Korean-American" (with or without the hyphen) without positive confirmation that she actually has Korean citizenship.DragonFury (talk) 10:00, 12 February 2023 (UTC)

So what's the consensus now? The discussion will be archived again in seven days of inactivity. Solemn Penance (talk) 02:42, 21 February 2023 (UTC)


 * Added DNAU to prevent archival due to inactivity, while understand that's there is consensus to include mentions of "Korea [heritage/ethnicity]" however there is no consensus on which format/style to use/go for hence what we now needed is consensus on which format/style to write it in to prevent further and/or any WP:EDITWAR pertaining to such while also ensuring that we had on record that this discussion happened in case someone new come by and make a big hoo-ha again which was what exactly happened that started this discussion.  — Paper9oll  (🔔 • 📝)  06:54, 21 February 2023 (UTC)
 * Seems that "Korean American singer-songwriter" has the most support along with "American-born Korean singer-songwriter" and "American singer of Korean descent". I would vote the first option because I believe that article covers both her nationality and ethnicity. But if DragonFury and you still oppose this then the last option is a mostly agreed upon compromise. Solemn Penance (talk) 06:04, 23 February 2023 (UTC)
 * @Solemn Penance I would go for either second option with no adjustment or third option with adjustment of "American singer-songwriter of Korean descent" (bold is just for emphasizing in the reply NOT for actual implementation) instead. Fyi, the "most support" shouldn't or must not include WP:MEAT accounts.  — Paper9oll  (🔔 • 📝)  06:26, 23 February 2023 (UTC)
 * "Korean American singer-songwriter" implies dual nationality which we have no reliable sources for, and "American-born Korean singer-songwriter" implies she had American citizenship, rejected it, and now only carries solely Korean citizenship, which we also have zero reliable sources for. "American singer of Korean descent" is the only one that is properly backed by sources, but I would like to point out that Korea is mentioned four times in the opening paragraph and her Korean descent is adequately covered in the main body of the article. Adding "of Korean descent" adds nothing of real value in my opinion.DragonFury (talk) 08:24, 23 February 2023 (UTC)
 * "American singer of Korean descent" seems the most direct and least chance of confusion otherwise introduced by asking "What is the definition of Korean-American?" Evaders99 (talk) 21:26, 23 February 2023 (UTC)

Ethnicity in the lead
As per wp:ethnicity 🅶🅰🅼🅾🆆🅴🅱🅱🅴🅳 (talk) 08:28, 17 August 2023 (UTC)


 * The existing revision is as per discussion at Talk:Tiffany Young/Archive 1. Please establish new WP:CONSENSUS to overwrite existing CONSENSUS through discussion until then the status quo must be remains the same.  — Paper9oll  (🔔 • 📝)  14:10, 17 August 2023 (UTC)
 * @Paper9oll im following the manual of style, which is wikipedias guidelines 🅶🅰🅼🅾🆆🅴🅱🅱🅴🅳 (talk) 10:47, 17 August 2023 (UTC)
 * this topic can be the discussion 🅶🅰🅼🅾🆆🅴🅱🅱🅴🅳 (talk) 10:48, 17 August 2023 (UTC)
 * @Gamowebbed As stated above, the existing consensus is already established above and that there were no objections since the changes were implemented after the discussion became stale which in turn concluded it. The previous discussion was started due to dispute as per the article's history in which WP:MOS (i.e. MOS:ETHNICITY) was already bought up before hence it isn't something that wasn't already discussed. If you still have any objections to the existing consensus then you're free to proposed a new consensus and also kindly ping the previous participants so they are aware of such.  — Paper9oll  (🔔 • 📝)  14:10, 17 August 2023 (UTC)
 * I was told to come here to establish a consensus regarding the Tiffany Young lead section, mentioning her ethnicity. My thoughts on the matter would be to not include her ethnicity. As the MOS states: “Ethnicity, religion, or sexuality should generally not be in the lead unless relevant to the subject's notability. Similarly, neither previous nationalities nor the country of birth should be mentioned in the lead unless relevant to the subject's notability.” If you were to apply for this people like: Jessi, Eric Nam, Mark Lee, Jay Park, and Ailee etc., it can be repetitive. Imagine having this for an American person of any Asian descent. You don't see anymore mentioning it on other articles of people like Tiffany. It doesn't take much to search what is a person's ethnicity is. I think the best thing would just to format it based in South Korea, like how the people I listed above.  52-whalien (talk) 05:40, 28 August 2023 (UTC)
 * @52-whalien Please read my reply above if you haven't done so. And as stated above, if you still have any objections to the existing consensus after reading through then you're free to proposed a new consensus (your preferred sentence/wording) and also kindly ping the previous participants so they are aware of such.  — Paper9oll  (🔔 • 📝)  05:58, 28 August 2023 (UTC)
 * What I said was self-explanatory. You seemed to have merged the consensus that I wanted to start up. I already mentioned how it should be formatted. 52-whalien (talk) 06:19, 28 August 2023 (UTC)
 * @52-whalien I merged it to standardised the discussion because it pertains to the same topic of interest. From my understanding of your "self-explanatory" reply, your preferred sentence is "... is an American singer-songwriter" is my understanding correct? Fyi, your preferred sentence and also pertaining to your bold quoted text above was already discussed previously (please go read through if you haven't done so before replying to get the whole picture) in the linked relevant discussion above, which is why the "of Korean descent" was included as part of the consensus outcome.  — Paper9oll  (🔔 • 📝)  06:37, 28 August 2023 (UTC)
 * I've read up on the previous consensus. I still don't agree with the ethnicity being in the lead section. If it were to be changed, my preferred wording be: “Stephanie Young Hwang (born August 1, 1989), known professionally as Tiffany or Tiffany Young, is an American singer-songwriter based in South Korea.” Examples of the lead section be would Jessi, Eric Nam, and Jay Park. 52-whalien (talk) 06:48, 28 August 2023 (UTC)

Requests for comment (RfC)
There has been dispute pertaining the first sentence on the lead on whether to include ethnicity or removing it. Previous consensus here was in favor of including her ethnicity in the lead section mainly due to relevant to the subject's notability. However, as of today, we have yet another dilemma where another group of editors (whom didn't participated previously) were in favor of removing it hence we need to fix it once and for all (this can't kept going on where more than 6 months later, another group wanted it back) and agree on what is what, lets !vote.

Which options is your preferred !vote:
 * 1) Stephanie Young Hwang (born August 1, 1989), known professionally as Tiffany or Tiffany Young, is an American singer-songwriter of Korean descent.
 * 2) Stephanie Young Hwang (born August 1, 1989), known professionally as Tiffany or Tiffany Young, is an American singer-songwriter based in South Korea.
 * 3) Stephanie Young Hwang (born August 1, 1989), known professionally as Tiffany or Tiffany Young, is an American-born Korean singer-songwriter.
 * 4) Stephanie Young Hwang (born August 1, 1989), known professionally as Tiffany or Tiffany Young, is an American singer-songwriter.
 * 5) Stephanie Young Hwang (born August 1, 1989), known professionally as Tiffany or Tiffany Young, is an American and Korean singer-songwriter.

 — Paper9oll  (🔔 • 📝)  13:27, 28 August 2023 (UTC)

Option 1 (Retain the status quo)

 * Support  — Paper9oll  (🔔 • 📝)  13:27, 28 August 2023 (UTC)
 * Support - this is the closest to factually correct and unambiguous as you get. Would support option 2 as well. Dislike other options that would either by ambiguous or increase further edit warring from the fandom. Evaders99 (talk) 03:57, 29 August 2023 (UTC)
 * Support this seems a case where ethnicity and nationality are both relevant, and this is the simplest way to record both. I might support "American-born" if we were sure that she held Korean citizenship, similarly "Korean based" if we were sure that she lived mainly there, but no such proof is offered. The very significant role of S Korea in her career is outlined clearly in sentences 2 onwards. Pincrete (talk) 06:26, 8 September 2023 (UTC)
 * Support status-quo. This American person was selected for a two years training in Korea and became part of a girl's band in Korea. This is the basis of her celebrity. She was not selected as the random cereals' killer, nor as the random specialist in letter soup, but as a singer from Korean descent. This may be discriminatory against the cereals' killers or  the specialists in  letter soup, but this is a key point in the celebrity of this living person. And, you know, the Wikipedia article has  to  follow  the real world (there are some letter soup rules about that). Pldx1 (talk) 23:58, 9 September 2023 (UTC)
 * Support support options 1 and 2 Solemn Penance (talk) 02:19, 10 September 2023 (UTC)

Option 2 (Modify)

 * Support DragonFury (talk) 14:10, 28 August 2023 (UTC)
 * Support based on the examples provided by 52-whalien. I think option 1 is too broad and option 3 seems to be against WP:ETHNICITY. I would also accept option 4. - Ïvana (talk) 15:48, 28 August 2023 (UTC)
 * Support This seems rather neutral in tone and in line with other BLP's I've seen in wiki. Oaktree b (talk) 02:47, 7 September 2023 (UTC)
 * Support support options 1 and 2 Solemn Penance (talk) 02:20, 10 September 2023 (UTC)

Option 4 (Remove it)

 * Support I'm assuming I can support two different since I find both option 2 and 4 to be acceptable. DragonFury (talk) 14:11, 28 August 2023 (UTC)
 * Support I would in be favor of removing it, but option 2 I agree is good as well. Btspurplegalaxy (talk) 18:34, 28 August 2023 (UTC)
 * Support Options 1 and 3 violate MOS:ETHNICITY. Unless she has Korean citizenship (for which I see no evidence) Option 3 is also factually incorrect. Option 2 adds information that should be in the lead, but in my opinion not in the first sentence. -- Random person no 362478479 (talk) 19:50, 28 August 2023 (UTC)
 * Support per above 🅶🅰🅼🅾🆆🅴🅱🅱🅴🅳 (talk) 05:59, 29 August 2023 (UTC)
 * Support: Her ethnicity is should not be in the lead per MOS:ETHNICITY. Lightoil (talk) 10:41, 29 August 2023 (UTC)
 * Support: MOS:ETHNICITY applies and her citizenship and residency is in the United States.

Option 5 (Modify)

 * Support per MOS:NATIONALITY, the fall back from this would e option 4. The other options are not in line with the policy. Thanks! Nemov (talk) 03:00, 29 August 2023 (UTC)
 * Support, it's clear that the Korean part of her identity is of central importance whether she has citizenship or not so MOS:ETHNICITY probably doesn't apply. Notwithstanding, that it's likely she has Korean citizenship anyways.--Ortizesp (talk) 20:27, 30 August 2023 (UTC)
 * Support The words "Korea" or "Korean" need to be somewhere in the first sentence on the lead. She was a member of the Korean girl group Girls' Generation for a decade, lived in South Korea, sang in Korean, and is of Korean descent/ethnicity. She wasn't famous or notable at all before she joined that group. Options 1, 2, 4 make it seem like she only sings in English, whereas option 3 makes it seem like she only sings in Korean. Option 5 is a good compromise. Some1 (talk) 18:34, 10 September 2023 (UTC)

Discussion

 * The issue I have here is the first three options are not acceptable from a MOS:NATIONALITY perspective. She should probably be referenced to as an American and Korean singer or just American. The rest of the options are just wrong. Nemov (talk) 16:17, 28 August 2023 (UTC)
 * Plus, unless she has Korean citizenship option 3 is factually wrong. -- Random person no 362478479 (talk) 19:41, 28 August 2023 (UTC)
 * @Paper9oll Some of these options go against MOS:NATIONALITY and there's no option for American and Korean, so I'm not sure this RfC is going to stick on policy grounds. Nemov (talk) 19:51, 28 August 2023 (UTC)
 * @Nemov ✅ see option 5.  — Paper9oll  (🔔 • 📝)  02:49, 29 August 2023 (UTC)
 * Option 4 should also apply to Choi Woo-shik 🅶🅰🅼🅾🆆🅴🅱🅱🅴🅳 (talk) 06:00, 29 August 2023 (UTC)
 * His article does apply the correct way. <b style="color:black; font-family:Garamond">Btspurplegalaxy</b> <b style="color:blue">💬</b> <b style="color:#9D9E9E">🖊️</b> 06:07, 29 August 2023 (UTC)
 * That article is incorrect as well. It should either be Canadian and Korean or just Canadian. Nemov (talk) 13:50, 29 August 2023 (UTC)
 * @Btspurplegalaxy as stated above, the article does not need all that info in the first line 🅶🅰🅼🅾🆆🅴🅱🅱🅴🅳 (talk) 16:13, 29 August 2023 (UTC)
 * It does by go his correct nationality. Can you explain exactly how putting his location is incorrect? He works in Korea as an actor. <b style="color:black; font-family:Garamond">Btspurplegalaxy</b> <b style="color:blue">💬</b> <b style="color:#9D9E9E">🖊️</b> 17:17, 29 August 2023 (UTC)
 * As i said, that info does not go in the first line as per MOS:Ethnicity 🅶🅰🅼🅾🆆🅴🅱🅱🅴🅳 (talk) 01:56, 30 August 2023 (UTC)
 * How would a location be against MOS:ETHNICITY? <b style="color:black; font-family:Garamond">Btspurplegalaxy</b> <b style="color:blue">💬</b> <b style="color:#9D9E9E">🖊️</b> 02:42, 30 August 2023 (UTC)
 * The article says that she currently lives in California. I think if that is current Option 2 would be incorrect. However, the article mentions projects in South Korea after the claim that she lives in California, so that information may not be current. -- Random person no 362478479 (talk) 20:34, 30 August 2023 (UTC)
 * My ranking is: 4>5>2 (formerly based?)>>>1>>>3.Tiffany Young was born in the United States, thus making her a citizen. MOS:ETHNICITY makes 1 and 3 not good, in my opinion. 2 seems like an option, but more information is needed on her current residence if it is to be implement. 4 is the best option here. Baudshaw (talk) 17:32, 20 September 2023 (UTC)