Talk:Tim Johnson (South Dakota politician)

NPOV
This article is crap. There is bias in the language and some of the sentences have nothing to do with him at all. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.220.238.140 (talk • contribs)

I agree with you. What the f*** is up with this article? Jim16


 * The edits by 66.234.34.141 belong to me -- apparently I got logged out without noticing. I've rewritten parts of the article and removed some of the extraneous Daschle material which belongs elsewhere, although I think it's legitimate to mention his re-election race's status as a proxy battle between Bush and Daschle here. Unless there's further objection, I'll remove the NPOV notice one week from today. --Polonius 00:13, 31 December 2005 (UTC)
 * The following comments by Jim16 have been copied here from my talk page. --Polonius 14:40, 1 January 2006 (UTC)
 * The stuff about the proxy battle between George W. Bush and Tom Daschle really doesn't belong there, even though you said it did. Please discuss this on my talk page with me. (Note: the earlier edit by 66.17.116.148 was actually me because I forgot to sign in.  Have a nice day.Jim16 05:31, 1 January 2006 (UTC)
 * All right; what's your reasoning why not? The fact that it was seen as a proxy battle is not in dispute; noting it here requires one sentence and recognises an important dynamic of his re-election race. Certainly, I wouldn't want to go into more detail than this, but, as it stands, I think it's useful information. --Polonius 14:40, 1 January 2006 (UTC)


 * In the absence of a reply, I'm removing the NPOV warning. If anyone still has a problem, please explain why on this page when you reinstate the flag. --Polonius 19:46, 7 January 2006 (UTC)

10 YEAR UPDATE - I tried to clean up some of the worst NPOV violations, but work still needs to be done in the "Political positions" section (it read like a press release). The section also lacks many citations. Jsniessen (talk) 14:44, 5 January 2016 (UTC)

Replacement in event of incapacitation/death
The specifics of how a senator is replaced need to be double-checked. I'm pretty sure (and heard on the news) that an appointed replacement senator serves until the term expires; no special elections are held. --ChrisDC 00:03, 14 December 2006 (UTC)


 * It's given in the sourced legislation. . -4 says he "may fill by temporary appointment, until a special election is held pursuant to this chapter". -1 describes the methods of a special election to Congress, basically "in three months time".
 * -5 appears to contradict this, saying wait until next election, but I think it's irrelevant - it just talks about "the senate", whilst the other sections talk about "the United States Senate", suggesting it's meaning the state senate only. Unfortunately, it isn't explicit about this... Shimgray | talk | 00:14, 14 December 2006 (UTC)
 * Ignore all that - I was wrong. It looks very definitely like the special elections requirement in -1 only refers to Representatives - I keep forgetting that that only refers to members of the lower house and not to both. Appointment followed by special election at the next general election, whenever that is - 2008, presumably. Shimgray | talk | 00:42, 14 December 2006 (UTC)


 * Just to note, the replacement would serve, at best, through the 110th congress. In this case, that would be the whole of Johnson's remaining term, but would not necessarily be.  As to how replacing senators work, my understanding is that it differs by state.  Pennsylvania, for instance, had a special election in fall 1993 after Senator Heinz's death. john k


 * It does, and on the length of time remaining in the term; Bob Menendez, for example, was simply appointed for the last year of a term, before he was elected. Presumably provisions for incapacity also vary; Carter Glass held his seat for a term and a half before his death, despite usually being unable to attend the Senate. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 23:45, 14 December 2006 (UTC)

According to MSNBC, Tim Johnson's office just said that he did not have a stroke, but is under medical evaluation...can someone check to confirm this?viperdude908 08:00 p.m, 13 December 2006


 * CNN's update supports this. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 23:45, 14 December 2006 (UTC)


 * CNN is saying that he had brain surgery.—Slipgrid 12:20, 14 December 2006 (UTC)


 * I heard it was a "congenital arteriovenal malformation", which I think means that he had fucked-up blood vessels from birth, and that it had led to bleeding on the brain. 204.52.215.13 19:43, 14 December 2006 (UTC)

Unless I am greatly mistaken, all of Chapter 12-11 (see below) applies to the United States Congress. Section 12-11-1 makes it clear that a U.S. Senate temporary appointment would result in a special election within 90 days. Section 12-11-5 makes this unclear. —MJBurrage • TALK  • 01:12, 15 December 2006 (UTC) Chapter 12-11 — Special Congressional Elections
 * 12-11-1 Special election to fill congressional vacancy—Time of election of representative. If a vacancy occurs in the office of a senator or representative in the United States Congress it shall be the duty of the Governor within ten days of the occurrence, to issue a proclamation setting the date of and calling for a special election for the purpose of filling such vacancy. If either a primary or general election is to be held within six months, an election to fill a vacancy in the office of representative in the United States Congress shall be held in conjunction with that election, otherwise the election shall be held not less than eighty nor more than ninety days after the vacancy occurs.
 * 12-11-2 Filing of election proclamation—Notice to county auditors and political parties—Nominations. The proclamation issued pursuant to § 12-11-1 shall be filed with the secretary of state who shall, if a special election is called for, thereupon notify each county auditor and the chairman of each political party recognized pursuant to chapter 12-5 of the date and purpose thereof. The State Central Committee of each political party so recognized shall be entitled to nominate a person to fill such vacancy and independent candidates filing nominating petitions meeting the requirements of § 12-7-1 may also have their names placed on the ballot.
 * 12-11-3 Filing of nominations—Certification—Conduct of elections. Each party nomination and independent petition shall be filed with the secretary of state not less than forty-five days preceding any election which is not combined with a primary or general election. If the election is conducted with a primary election, each party nomination and independent petition shall be filed by the first Tuesday in April. Each nomination shall be certified in a like manner as any other nomination for the purpose of a general election. The election shall be conducted, canvassed, and the results certified as in a general election. If the election is conducted with a general election, each party nomination and independent petition shall be filed by the second Tuesday in August.
 * 12-11-4 Temporary appointment by Governor to fill vacancy in United States Senate. Pursuant to the Seventeenth Amendment to the Constitution of the United States of America, the Governor may fill by temporary appointment, until a special election is held pursuant to this chapter, vacancies in the office of senator in the Senate of the United States.
 * 12-11-5 Special election to fill senate vacancy. The special election to fill the vacancy of a senator shall be held at the same time as the next general election. The general election laws shall apply unless inconsistent with this chapter.
 * 12-11-6 No special election if appointed senator's term expires at normal time. No special election, to fill a vacancy, may be held if the term of office of the appointed senator expires in the month of January immediately following the next general election that would occur after the vacancy.
 * 12-11-7 Vacancy within ninety days of general election—Concurrent elections. If a vacancy occurs within ninety days of the next general election, the special election to fill the vacancy shall be held concurrently with the general election to be held two years later.
 * 12-11-8 Nominations for specially elected senator—Vacancy near primary election. Nominations of candidates for the special election for senator shall be conducted pursuant to chapter 12-6. If a vacancy occurs within ninety days of the date of the primary election, or between the primary election and at least ninety days prior to the general election, the provisions of §§ 12-11-2 and 12-11-3 shall apply.


 * It's a bit deceiving at first glance. Section 12-11-1 says that, for a representative or a senator, the governor must "issue a proclamation setting the date of and calling for a special election for the purpose of filling such vacancy."  However, the next sentence only sets the time frame for filling "a vacancy in the office of representative in the United States Congress," not for a senator.  That would seem to leave the matter up to section 12-11-5. -- ChrisDC 21:09, 29 December 2006 (UTC)

Health section
There is a lot of material here to expand on, especially the Senator's recent cancer treatment. If someone could include that information, please do. --Daysleeper47 13:39, 14 December 2006 (UTC)


 * I think the health information is out of place near the top of the entry. I also think it's redundant to have it at the top and the bottom of the entry. Perhaps one sentence near the top, stating that Johnson fell ill on December 13, 2006, with a reference to more information in the Health section would be appropriate. Mikehillman 19:35, 14 December 2006 (UTC)

This is not a news article. The part about what happens if he has to resign, which I might add there is no sign of, is not needed. State his health condition and then move on. This is a bio, not a CNN article.

Actually, it's a Wikipedia page, among whose characteristics is the ability to change swiftly to reflect important new information. Tim Johnson's medical condition may tip power in the U.S. Senate. Leaving that out would slight Wikipedia and its readers. PRRfan 15:38, 15 December 2006 (UTC)

How is putting in that Mike Rounds would name a replacement IF he resigns slighting readers? He's alive for Christ sakes. Let's also add what his wife would do if he dies. Or what his kids/grandchildren/friends/family will do. We sure don't want to slight Wikipedia and its readers. We also need to put on every senator's page what happens if they resign or die, because we don't want to slight Wikipedia and its readers. LightningOffense 04:50, 19 December 2006 (UTC)

I'm afraid I can't quite make out your argument. In any case, in a single day Johnson went from being one of the more obscure members of the U.S. Senate to front-page news and a potential fulcrum of power. Perhaps Johnson will recover and his medical condition will become of concern to him and his family alone. But for now, it's the only reason Johnson is the talk of Washington. By the way, use four tildes ( ~ ) to generate your sig. PRRfan 23:51, 15 December 2006 (UTC)

OK, help here please!! You guys had a sentence repeated in the paragraph--about Johnson's being responsive to touch and voice. When I deleted it the copy went funny. Sorry. Yopienso 21:35, 21 December 2006 (UTC)

It has been over a week now since Sen. Johnson had his "stroke like symptoms" and he is still alive and according to all reports, he will likely make a full recovery. I think it is time to start discussing the removal of what happens if he were to die in office. LightningOffense 01:06, 23 December 2006 (UTC)

Nope, I don't think so. The potential effect of Johnson's malady on the U.S. Senate remains, with all due respect to his family and friends, the most significant thing about him. It may well remain so even if, as now seems likely but by no means certain, he recovers fully. LO, what's your rush? Wikipedia is not, after all, paper. PRRfan 06:18, 24 December 2006 (UTC)

The comment about his lack of recent public appearance uses the word aneurysm, but that is distinct from an arteriovenous malformation. While often conflated, they are distinct conditions, even when a rupture of the blood vessels occurs as a result of an AVM. -- Alcourt 13:27, 14 May 2007 (UTC)

Poison
I hope everyone is keeping an open mind and considering that this man was poisioned. It is an age old political trick, see 'I, Claudius' 67.169.214.13 19:58, 16 December 2006 (UTC)


 * This is Wikipedia. Not some nutjob conspiracy site. And I say that as a Democrat. Seriously, the guy had an inherited condition and some bad luck. Get over it. 71.42.68.245 16:27, 18 December 2006 (UTC)


 * And we can keep an open mind that he's an alien from mars. There's no facts saying yes, but there's none saying he isn't, yet.  Conspiracies aside, try to have objective facts.  Speculation can abound, but unless you can provide evidence, such as medical reports and links to biological, chemical, or radiological elements that cause his condition, it's just that.  Wild speculation. 63.95.218.254 16:33, 18 December 2006 (UTC)

Ramifications of resignation while in office
This section is all very interesting information, which nonetheless probably doesn't belong in an encyclopedia article, certainly not this article. If Senator Johnson makes a full recovery before the end of his term, this section will be removed. If Sentator Johnson resigns/dies, this section will be removed (and replaced with something like "Senator Johnson was replaced by so-and-so on his resignation/death"). I suggest removing the section, adding a sentence to the previous paragraph on his latest health problems along the lines of "The Senator's illness led several media commentators to speculate on how his possible death or resignation would affect the balance of power in the Senate. [insert some references here]". CyborgTosser (Only half the battle) 23:36, 24 January 2007 (UTC)

I agree with post. I have tried to get rid of this section, but somebody always put it back in. It certainly appears that the will not have to resign before his term is up. LightningOffense 23:56, 24 January 2007 (UTC)


 * While I disagree about the topic being unencyclopedic - I think procedure in replacing a Senate vacancy is very encyclopedic and should be included somewhere, perhaps United States Senate - I do agree that the section is becoming increasingly irrelevant to this subject. Since the initial illness in December, there has been no publication indicating there will be a resignation or death of this person and what has been published only speaks of recovery.  I support the removal of this section unless something changes.  --Oakshade 23:58, 24 January 2007 (UTC)


 * I think I overgeneralized when I said the information didn't belong in an encyclopedia. I certainly agree that procedure in replacing a Senate vacancy belongs in an article (not this one) and I would also like to see a list of occurrences of a Senator being replaced.  I think we probably need an article on "appointment to vacatated United States Congress seats" (title to be discussed; too bad their isn't a widely used word like "succession" for the Presidency).  Such an article would also provide a good place for contrasting examples of members of Congress continuing to serve while in poor health.  If Tim Johnson begins serving actively again before he has made a full recovery medically, then perhaps such a comparison would be relevant here, but until that happens, I don't think it is very relevant except to a particular speculated outcome.


 * What I don't think belongs in any encyclopedia article is in-depth discussion on the potential effects on the "balance of power". This speculation is political commentary, which further I have a hard time believing will be remembered much less relevant a year from now.  I say rather than speculating, we should let events play out and if the outcome has historical importance, we can reintroduce this into the article at that time.CyborgTosser (Only half the battle) 07:29, 25 January 2007 (UTC)


 * I agree; it's increasingly irrelevant to this article. I removed the heading and first paragraph, while retaining the relevant (IMO) points about other senators' having served while very ill and/or incapacitated.--HughGRex 00:28, 25 January 2007 (UTC)
 * Should there be a full recovery and he's back in the Senate at work (the probable case), the paragraph should be reduced further like the cancer occurrence one. It's kind of embarassing that the "Health" section has more content than the "United States Senate" section does. --Oakshade 02:20, 25 January 2007 (UTC)


 * The "United States Senate" section is rather shallow, isn't it? I hope that someone who knows Johnson's record much better than I will take this opportunity to expand the section. What committees has he served on? What bills has he introduced?--HughGRex 10:51, 25 January 2007 (UTC)

Since Senator Johnson is suppose to be back to work on September 5 (I think that was the day), I purpose that this article be changed and the ramifications of death section be either greatly rewritten or removed all together. Obviously, the change shouldn't be made until that date. Anybody have any thoughts on that? LightningOffense 20:08, 29 August 2007 (UTC)
 * Now that he's returned to work, I put referenced content describing that and removed the now off-topic section about the ramifications if a Senator resigns from office. --Oakshade 05:44, 6 September 2007 (UTC)

Paragraph about Disability
Following LightningOffense's edit, I restored the following paragraph:

Senate precedent has seen members serve despite disabling physical illness. Several senators, including Karl Mundt (R-SD), have served out terms while disabled. Others have requested leaves for surgery or illness, which have been granted by the Senate, and the members returned after recovery. In one often-cited instance of a Senator serving despite disability, in 1964 Senator Clair Engle (D-CA), who was suffering from brain cancer, was wheeled into the Senate and pointed to his eye, signifying his vote to end a filibuster against the passage of the Civil Rights Act ("eye" is a homophone with "aye", the term used in Congress to signify an affirming vote).

Although LightningOffense believes this paragraph belongs in the United States Senate article, it's not there currently. (Perhaps it should be added to the Senate article.) More to the point, I believe that it's directly relevant to Johnson's current position. Wikipedia readers who want to know about the ramifications of his health situation (and any precedents that might be relevant) are more likely to come to this article than to the Senate article. Let's continue to give them what they want.--HughGRex 11:58, 22 February 2007 (UTC)

Military offspring
The point Michael Moore reference confuses the point. While it was true at that time that Johnson was the only Senator with a son or daughter in the military, that is no longer the case. That language probably needs to be tightened up to more strongly reference that the distinction either isn't true anymore, or was true at that point in time.

Perm Dude 22:07, 7 August 2007 (UTC)
 * While some clarification may be in order, the two sentences when read together are clear that Johnson was the only one with a son in the military "when American invaded Iraq." I've added "at the time" to the end of the Moore reference to make it more clear. However, to my knowledge, Johnson is still the only Senator or with a child serving in the military. The distinction I've always read was that while some members of Congress had sons or daughters in the military, those children served as officers. Johnson holds the distinction of being the only Senator with a child in the enlisted ranks, and by far is the only one with a son directly involved in both the war in Afghanistan and the war in Iraq.Dcmacnut 23:59, 7 August 2007 (UTC)


 * Thanks for adding the clarifying language. Jim Webb's son Jimmy is currently a Marine lance corporal and served in Iraq after dropping out of Penn State to enlist.

Perm Dude 01:24, 8 August 2007 (UTC)


 * I completely forgot about Webb. And I even followed that race closely and knew all about him wearing his son's combat boots.Dcmacnut 02:53, 8 August 2007 (UTC)

Megatech
 * I recommend reading and adding the following link:

http://www.signonsandiego.com/uniontrib/20040913/news_1m13duncan.html Representative Duncan Hunter has a son that served in Iraq (2003-2004).

Kabulykos How is any of the "other members of congress have children in the military" specifically relevant to Tim Johnson bio or family info? It just smells like a (now-extremely-dated) attack on Michael Moore's credibility. Off topic. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Kabulykos (talk • contribs) 07:34, 20 November 2012 (UTC)

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